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Fangz
Jul 5, 2007

Oh I see! This must be the Bad Opinion Zone!


Kaza42 posted:

Fewer building slots to boost each other with. With a three town province you can have: wealth buildings+defense in everything, then a town with +growth, a town with +public order and the main settlement with whatever you want (adjust as needed for special buildings). In two province, you often have to give up either growth or public order boosts or something. Not a huge deal, but it's there.

I think that's an odd comparison though. You're comparing owning two cities to three, basically. It seems a more valid comparison to me is to note that four cities divided into 2 city provinces is strictly better in a bunch of ways than 1 big four city province. Firstly you get one set of walls for free so you don't have to build as many garrisons. It's also easier to unify because it's less likely that you have a province divided amongst multiple owners. You get use of the factionwide trade income +5% +20 growth commandment per province, so you earn that bonus twice. You have double the number of provincial capitals for you to build high tier buildings in, should you choose.

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Ham Sandwiches
Jul 7, 2000


ZearothK posted:

The issue is way minimized now that there is no corruption as it existed in the past games, so expansion is always a net sum. I felt the Empire campaign was the most fun as it remained challenging all the way to victory and on. Also that assessment is way wrong. Wissenland and Middenheim both border Reikland and each has three-region provinces. Reikland itself is the only human four-region province, and Marienburg has that unique money making port right next door.

I mentioned Middenheim, and I didn't conquer Wissenland so I didn't get to see that it was a 3 city province.

Other than those two, all the crap down south by pretend france is two city provinces, all the crap in the east buffering VC is two city provinces, and the north is unappealing for chaos reasons.

Kaza42
Oct 3, 2013

Blood and Souls and all that

Fangz posted:

I think that's an odd comparison though. You're comparing owning two cities to three, basically. It seems a more valid comparison to me is to note that four cities divided into 2 city provinces is strictly better in a bunch of ways than 1 big four city province. Firstly you get one set of walls for free so you don't have to build as many garrisons. It's also easier to unify because it's less likely that you have a province divided amongst multiple owners. You get use of the factionwide trade income +5% +20 growth commandment per province, so you earn that bonus twice. You have double the number of provincial capitals for you to build high tier buildings in, should you choose.

Yeah, you have a good point there. The only time I'd definitely rather have a 4-province is for recruitment. If you need 6 different buildings to unlock everything, it's nice to get that all in one place so that you can also stack +Rank heroes and stuff

Ham Sandwiches
Jul 7, 2000


Fangz posted:

I think that's an odd comparison though. You're comparing owning two cities to three, basically. It seems a more valid comparison to me is to note that four cities divided into 2 city provinces is strictly better in a bunch of ways than 1 big four city province. Firstly you get one set of walls for free so you don't have to build as many garrisons. It's also easier to unify because it's less likely that you have a province divided amongst multiple owners. You get use of the factionwide trade income +5% +20 growth commandment per province, so you earn that bonus twice. You have double the number of provincial capitals for you to build high tier buildings in, should you choose.

You take a province. You need to establish happy province wide, because its a province wide stat. If you build two +happy buildings, in a two city province that means each city has given up a slot to fix the happiness. If you add a growth building to each, then you have like one slot left on the town and probably the same on the capital. Eventually you'll get another in the capital.

Two city provinces will generally be poor choices for either moneymaker provinces because you can't specialize them, or troop producing provinces because of all the buildings required. Some of the lategame troops require 2-3 buildings, which is a real problem if you only have two slots as mentioned above.

I find that most two city provinces are self sufficient and do ok. They get garrisons and make a bit of money, like 800-1500 a turn or so. A good 3 city province can make 3k, and a good 4 city province can make almost 5k.

Two city provinces are useful lategame around turn 80 when they're done growing and presumably they're secure so now they have useful slots. Two size two cities is really really lovely and I found myself getting that all the time as Empire.

Like just do the math, 2 city province = 8 slots, 3 city province = 12, 4 city province = 16. You need two happy buildings, two growth buildings, and presumably some money too. That's 6 out of 8 slots for the 2 city province, 8 out of 12 slots in the 3 city province, and 12 out of 16 slots in the 4 city province.

And of course you don't really need to go past 2 of any of the buildings, so the actual math is like:
2 city province = 8 slots, 6 used. 3 city province = 12 slots, 6 used. 4 city province = 16 slots, 6 used.

Kimsemus
Dec 4, 2013

A peaceful land, a quiet people. That has always been my rule.


Toilet Rascal

Just thought I'd weigh in on the mods I think are essential for gameplay (so long as you actually enjoy modding) that might find some interest in the OP or something:

Better Camera Mod - http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfil...s/?id=690476829

Does what it says, dramatically improves the zooming capabilities in the battle map, and is essential for battles where you have reinforcing armies spreading out your battle line. Also great for getting close zooms on combat and letting you enjoy the show. Pretty much compatible with everything as well.

Radious Total War - http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfil...s/?id=689913357

It's no secret I've been a big Radious fan since Rome II, but if you're looking for a total rebalance mod, this is it. The nuts and bolts is a rebalance that sees combat in battles lasting longer, and dramatically improves how the AI builds stacks and uses them in battle. Most magic, heroes, and unit stats have been re-tuned, as well as the economy. Diplomacy and the campaign map AI also are tougher, but make more sense. The AI is tougher, the number of armies everyone supports is larger, and the world is tilted towards more violence, but in my opinion the game feels much richer and more fun than vanilla.

Tie this in with the optional Radious Unit mods, which adds some balanced, new unit choices for each faction: http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfil...s/?id=693667798 The Unit mod also fills out the Empire tree pretty nicely, giving the Empire parity in infantry late game with other factions that is something other than Greatsword spam. People have super strong opinions on his unit mods, just try it for yourself and make up your own mind. Prepare for a lot of wailing and gnashing of teeth either way.

Radious combines the functions of many other highly sought after mods as well, such as increased skillpoints, hero rebalance, and cosmetics, so you can just use one instead of 10 others.

Bonus: You also get some dramatically improved models, such as these:




Home Region Movement Bonus - http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedeta

Gives you a 10% increase to movement range in territory you own (as well as the AI), giving players another option other than Ambush stance for trying to chase down armies that refuse to engage in your lands.

The Empire of Sigmar - http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfil...s/?id=691664240

Adds a bunch of units from the Warhammer Tabletop to the game for most factions. Balance is pretty on par with what is already out there. Combined with Radious, gives the AI and you a HUGE range of units to choose from to fill out armies with of varying costs, pre-reqs, and utility. Good for people who played Tabletop and miss a lot of their troop choices from later codexes.

No Aggressive Agent - http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfil...s/?id=690832068

This is a mod that hopefully won't be needed once the game is patched some more, but on higher difficulties you will never have lords in your armies because of the AI's tendency to chain assassinate every leader you have, which is further mired by their native buff to the number of agents they can deploy. This mod curbs that behavior, whilst still allowing the AI to do most other agent actions.


**Optional but fun if anarchy is your thing**

Conquer Anywhere - http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfil...s/?id=687689947

Essentially opens up the map for any faction to conquer anywhere instead of only certain lore based areas. Also expands vassal options, and a few other things. I especially enjoy this mod in Head-to-Head/Co-Op campaigns, as it opens up entirely new avenues for trickery and strategy.

--------

Those, in my mind, comprise the most essential mods. Everything else is just up to flavor and preference. If you use those mods, in my opinion, you're going to have a much more fleshed out and deep game, and one that's going to continue to challenge you long into your campaign.

Kimsemus fucked around with this message at Jun 8, 2016 around 19:01

sassassin
Apr 3, 2010
Bench press was, is and will never be a great chest builder.

Radious is pure garbage

Fans
Jun 27, 2013

A reptile dysfunction

I'd recommend against the Conquer Anywhere mod unless you've a deep burning hatred for not being able to settle every city, because it greatly changes how the game flow works. I like that the Human lands for Orcs are just a big money pot you visit now and then and not a stomping ground to expand your empire.

Fangz
Jul 5, 2007

Oh I see! This must be the Bad Opinion Zone!


Rakthar posted:

You take a province. You need to establish happy province wide, because its a province wide stat. If you build two +happy buildings, in a two city province that means each city has given up a slot to fix the happiness. If you add a growth building to each, then you have like one slot left on the town and probably the same on the capital. Eventually you'll get another in the capital.

Two city provinces will generally be poor choices for either moneymaker provinces because you can't specialize them, or troop producing provinces because of all the buildings required. Some of the lategame troops require 2-3 buildings, which is a real problem if you only have two slots as mentioned above.

I find that most two city provinces are self sufficient and do ok. They get garrisons and make a bit of money, like 800-1500 a turn or so. A good 3 city province can make 3k, and a good 4 city province can make almost 5k.

Two city provinces are useful lategame around turn 80 when they're done growing and presumably they're secure so now they have useful slots. Two size two cities is really really lovely and I found myself getting that all the time as Empire.

Like just do the math, 2 city province = 8 slots, 3 city province = 12, 4 city province = 16. You need two happy buildings, two growth buildings, and presumably some money too. That's 6 out of 8 slots for the 2 city province, 8 out of 12 slots in the 3 city province, and 12 out of 16 slots in the 4 city province.

And of course you don't really need to go past 2 of any of the buildings, so the actual math is like:
2 city province = 8 slots, 6 used. 3 city province = 12 slots, 6 used. 4 city province = 16 slots, 6 used.

You seriously do not need a public order building in *every single settlement*. I strongly doubt you need a +growth in every city either, and the number of +growth you need actually scales entirely linearly with the number of cities you have and so the number of settlement upgrades you need to buy. There's no sense in which two +growth is required for a 2 city province and that's somehow also enough for a four city province that has double the number of settlements to build up.

Kimsemus
Dec 4, 2013

A peaceful land, a quiet people. That has always been my rule.


Toilet Rascal

Fans posted:

I'd recommend against the Conquer Anywhere mod unless you've a deep burning hatred for not being able to settle every city, because it greatly changes how the game flow works. I like that the Human lands for Orcs are just a big money pot you visit now and then and not a stomping ground to expand your empire.

yeah I agree, I'll actually just probably file that one under optional, because some of my games definitely get kind of wonky. I think I like it more because games become wildly unpredictable, rather than the fact that they make sense.

sassassin posted:

Radious is pure garbage

So is your posting.

Ham Sandwiches
Jul 7, 2000


Fangz posted:

You seriously do not need a public order building in *every single settlement*. I strongly doubt you need a +growth in every city either, and the number of +growth you need actually scales entirely linearly with the number of cities you have and so the number of settlement upgrades you need to buy. There's no sense in which two +growth is required for a 2 city province and that's somehow also enough for a four city province that has double the number of settlements to build up.

Ok, so ignoring the particulars of the build, you do not see a difference between:

2 city province - 3 usable slots at size 3 - 6 slots
3 city province - 3 usable slots at size 3 - 9 slots
4 city province - 3 usable slots at size 3 - 12 slots

And how that matters when buildings generally need to be built in the same province to provide effects? Or how you can stack bonuses assuming you have more cities? Like, it's fine if it doesn't bother you or you enjoy two city provinces, but they are far less useful and flexible than the other kind. I don't really know why they made so many size two provinces, I would have expected size three to be the default. It makes the slot shuffling problem worse for little gameplay benefit, from my perspective.

Zephro
Nov 23, 2000

I suppose I could part with one and still be feared...


Kimsemus posted:

Just thought I'd weigh in on the mods I think are essential for gameplay (so long as you actually enjoy modding) that might find some interest in the OP or something:

Better Camera Mod - http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfil...s/?id=690476829

Does what it says, dramatically improves the zooming capabilities in the battle map, and is essentially for battles where you have reinforcing armies spreading out your battle line. Also great for getting close zooms on combat and letting you enjoy the show. Pretty much compatible with everything as well.
This used to cause crashes, did they fix it?

peer
Jan 17, 2004

this is not what I wanted

sassassin posted:

Radious is pure garbage

I'm happy to see radious' "new units" are as low-effort as ever. Black orcs with halberds! Black orcs with bows! Black orc cavalry! Black orcs with two hand weapons! Black orcs with shields!

Wallet
Jun 19, 2006



Fangz posted:

You seriously do not need a public order building in *every single settlement*. I strongly doubt you need a +growth in every city either, and the number of +growth you need actually scales entirely linearly with the number of cities you have and so the number of settlement upgrades you need to buy. There's no sense in which two +growth is required for a 2 city province and that's somehow also enough for a four city province that has double the number of settlements to build up.

Except that the amount of growth you need to get another point goes up for each point you have banked, so getting to a 5 growth surplus is not just 5x a 1 growth surplus. Maxing out minor settlements, no matter how many there are, takes no time at all.

Kimsemus posted:

So is your posting.

This may or may not be true, but Radius really does make garbage, low effort mods with very little care taken for either balance or differentiating factions or really anything else. This is why he always releases a 40 unit pack and an idiotic re-balance mod two days after the game comes out.

Wallet fucked around with this message at Jun 8, 2016 around 18:48

Kimsemus
Dec 4, 2013

A peaceful land, a quiet people. That has always been my rule.


Toilet Rascal

Zephro posted:

This used to cause crashes, did they fix it?

They did, I've not experienced any crashes on my machine, but I get minor tearing when I'm zoomed all the way in.

peer posted:

I'm happy to see radious' "new units" are as low-effort as ever. Black orcs with halberds! Black orcs with bows! Black orc cavalry! Black orcs with two hand weapons! Black orcs with shields!

A lot of the units have new models, but yeah, some of the new units are a little top-tier heavy.

Zephro
Nov 23, 2000

I suppose I could part with one and still be feared...


Kimsemus posted:

They did, I've not experienced any crashes on my machine, but I get minor tearing when I'm zoomed all the way in.
Sweet, I'll try it out.

Kaza42
Oct 3, 2013

Blood and Souls and all that

peer posted:

I'm happy to see radious' "new units" are as low-effort as ever. Black orcs with halberds! Black orcs with bows! Black orc cavalry! Black orcs with two hand weapons! Black orcs with shields!

I forget, was Radious the one obsessed with adding a dozen different Immortals variants? Because that's what just happened here.

Wallet
Jun 19, 2006



Kimsemus posted:

A lot of the units have new models, but yeah, some of the new units are a little top-tier heavy.

They probably have new variants, which is rather different. Giving Black Orcs new weapons is literally a single line of text.

xthetenth
Dec 30, 2012

Mario wasn't sure if this Jeb guy was a good influence on Yoshi.



Rakthar posted:

You take a province. You need to establish happy province wide, because its a province wide stat. If you build two +happy buildings, in a two city province that means each city has given up a slot to fix the happiness. If you add a growth building to each, then you have like one slot left on the town and probably the same on the capital. Eventually you'll get another in the capital.

Two city provinces will generally be poor choices for either moneymaker provinces because you can't specialize them, or troop producing provinces because of all the buildings required. Some of the lategame troops require 2-3 buildings, which is a real problem if you only have two slots as mentioned above.

I find that most two city provinces are self sufficient and do ok. They get garrisons and make a bit of money, like 800-1500 a turn or so. A good 3 city province can make 3k, and a good 4 city province can make almost 5k.

Two city provinces are useful lategame around turn 80 when they're done growing and presumably they're secure so now they have useful slots. Two size two cities is really really lovely and I found myself getting that all the time as Empire.

Like just do the math, 2 city province = 8 slots, 3 city province = 12, 4 city province = 16. You need two happy buildings, two growth buildings, and presumably some money too. That's 6 out of 8 slots for the 2 city province, 8 out of 12 slots in the 3 city province, and 12 out of 16 slots in the 4 city province.

And of course you don't really need to go past 2 of any of the buildings, so the actual math is like:
2 city province = 8 slots, 6 used. 3 city province = 12 slots, 6 used. 4 city province = 16 slots, 6 used.

4 cities give 5+3+3+3=14 slots. If you need to defend the province well, it's 7 slots vs 11, so two twins are ahead by 3. Capitol slots are a strict superset of town slots, as well. There's some mitigation of the downsides of fewer cities for public order, but that's one or two slots. However it will hurt levelling up that capitol, because growth buildings scale well with number of cities in a province, and the capitol takes dramatically more to get that fourth level (and fifth if you care).

Fangz
Jul 5, 2007

Oh I see! This must be the Bad Opinion Zone!


Rakthar posted:

Ok, so ignoring the particulars of the build, you do not see a difference between:

2 city province - 3 usable slots at size 3 - 6 slots
3 city province - 3 usable slots at size 3 - 9 slots
4 city province - 3 usable slots at size 3 - 12 slots

And how that matters when buildings generally need to be built in the same province to provide effects? Or how you can stack bonuses assuming you have more cities? Like, it's fine if it doesn't bother you or you enjoy two city provinces, but they are far less useful and flexible than the other kind. I don't really know why they made so many size two provinces, I would have expected size three to be the default. It makes the slot shuffling problem worse for little gameplay benefit, from my perspective.

I don't see the difference because there aren't a lot of buildings that provide province wide effects. You build one +income building per town. And 2 fully upgrade 2-city provinces *will* have more slots than 1 4-city province.

If you're comparing owning 4 cities to owning 2 and saying that's better, then okay. But that's a silly comparison because you don't conquer provinces, you conquer towns, and the question we have about these provinces is that the *towns* near Altdorf are split into smaller provinces and have thus a higher proportion of Provincial Capitals than elsewhere. And I'm saying that being split into smaller provinces in many ways makes things easier for the player, because it makes it easier to obtain complete provinces (without having to declare war on multiple factions, especially), and there's benefits you get that are per-province.

LGD
Sep 25, 2004



Fangz posted:

You seriously do not need a public order building in *every single settlement*. I strongly doubt you need a +growth in every city either, and the number of +growth you need actually scales entirely linearly with the number of cities you have and so the number of settlement upgrades you need to buy. There's no sense in which two +growth is required for a 2 city province and that's somehow also enough for a four city province that has double the number of settlements to build up.

This is wildly untrue because of the way province capitals and banked growth work. You can get the 1-2 population for rank 2-3 cities/towns very quickly and it will replenish almost instantly, but building up to the 4 and 5 population needed to raise capitals above rank 3 takes much longer even with multiple settlements because of the way scaling on banked growth works. If you've only got a single settlement providing +growth it potentially takes forever (though this is a bigger deal for Dwarfs than Humans due to how much of their roster is locked away at tier 4 and 5).

You also don't need a public order building in every settlement, but you do need at least one in every province and sometimes more depending on difficulty/location. Two city provinces absolutely have issues building infrastructure compared to 3-4 city provinces.

peer
Jan 17, 2004

this is not what I wanted

Kaza42 posted:

I forget, was Radious the one obsessed with adding a dozen different Immortals variants? Because that's what just happened here.

Yeah, radious is indeed the guy to blame if for some reason you didn't totally love his Immortal Chariots and Immortal Elephants.

Kimsemus
Dec 4, 2013

A peaceful land, a quiet people. That has always been my rule.


Toilet Rascal

LGD posted:

This is wildly untrue because of the way province capitals and banked growth work. You can get the 1-2 population for rank 2-3 cities/towns very quickly and it will replenish almost instantly, but building up to the 4 and 5 population needed to raise capitals above rank 3 takes much longer even with multiple settlements because of the way scaling on banked growth works. If you've only got a single settlement providing +growth it potentially takes forever (though this is a bigger deal for Dwarfs than Humans due to how much of their roster is locked away at tier 4 and 5).

You also don't need a public order building in every settlement, but you do need at least one in every province and sometimes more depending on difficulty/location. Two city provinces absolutely have issues building infrastructure compared to 3-4 city provinces.

Late game in VH/Legendary, 2 public order buildings in each province is pretty much mandatory, but usually by that point I just swap out my growth buildings with econ/public order buildings so it's not a big deal. I usually spam growth buildings until I hit my population maxes then convert down to econ/PO. Mathematically this always seems to work out better.

Triskelli
Sep 26, 2011

I'M A SKELETON
WITH VERY HIGH
STANDARDS


peer posted:

I'm happy to see radious' "new units" are as low-effort as ever. Black orcs with halberds! Black orcs with bows! Black orc cavalry! Black orcs with two hand weapons! Black orcs with shields!

Yeah Radious is more concerned with averaging out unit rosters than creating interesting play decision, but I guess there's a case to be made for making sure everyone has the same options.

Admittedly though Black Orcs do need some polish as they're lacking the "Armed to da' Teef" ability to swap between shields, great weapons, and two handweapons.

John Charity Spring
Nov 3, 2009

ACTIVATE THE QUEEN


Kimsemus posted:

A lot of the units have new models, but yeah, some of the new units are a little top-tier heavy.

That isn't the main issue with Radious' unit additions, it's that his entire philosophy is 'get rid of any difference whatsoever and let every faction recruit every unit'. CA's own rosters for certain games - like the Romans in both Rome 1 and 2 - make this error, but Radious makes it a central design principle for every drat mod he makes. Wouldn't be surprised if he added dwarf cavalry at some point. Also, an absolute shitload of redundancy in rosters. It's very tiresome.

Mazz
Dec 12, 2012

Orion, this is Sperglord Actual.
Come on home.


I do agree that not-France should really have all of their 2 province zones merged into 3s, it just flows better that way. It's really evident when you play Dwarves over the Empire and you start actually collecting full provinces. It doesn't need to be everywhere, but the system does seem to make more sense when you have a couple extra building slots available per province, otherwise they need to be far more tailored then really necessary.

For instance the Bastonne province just west of Reikland has an armory available, if you ever want to use that you need to eat essentially the only open ended building slot available there, since you'll probably want gates until you clear the entire west, and you'll probably want the iron mine or clothier for commerce. Now you have to move the barracks to the capital to get the armory recruiting bonus in that province, where if it just had a third town you could throw it there in the free slot.

Is province stuff handled in the startpos or the db tables? I could probably fix this myself now that I think about it.

Mazz fucked around with this message at Jun 8, 2016 around 18:55

madmac
Jun 22, 2010


I've learned not to sweat public order much in this game because building walls/garrisons in every town seriously minimizes the damage that rebels can do. At the very least it gives you a lot of time to go put them down.

That said, I do go growth and defense early and then public order/econ later unless I'm in dire need of money or local unit recruitment for whatever reason.

Kimsemus
Dec 4, 2013

A peaceful land, a quiet people. That has always been my rule.


Toilet Rascal

John Charity Spring posted:

That isn't the main issue with Radious' unit additions, it's that his entire philosophy is 'get rid of any difference whatsoever and let every faction recruit every unit'. CA's own rosters for certain games - like the Romans in both Rome 1 and 2 - make this error, but Radious makes it a central design principle for every drat mod he makes. Wouldn't be surprised if he added dwarf cavalry at some point.

Yeah, that's why I added it as an option -- it does homogenize some things, I use it when playing Empire, simply because I feel like the Empire's core infantry choices are severely lacking late game compared to the other factions. Radious appears to be adding a whole lot of everything in his unit mods this go around -- much of it balanced around how much you can actually afford in upkeep/costs.

Zephro
Nov 23, 2000

I suppose I could part with one and still be feared...


Triskelli posted:

Yeah Radious is more concerned with averaging out unit rosters than creating interesting play decision, but I guess there's a case to be made for making sure everyone has the same options.
I've never tried a Radious mod so maybe I'm misunderstanding what you're saying, but surely this defeats the point of having very different factions? Dwarfs are explicitly designed not to have cavalry, for instance...

Triskelli
Sep 26, 2011

I'M A SKELETON
WITH VERY HIGH
STANDARDS


Mazz posted:

I do agree that not-France should really have all of their 2 province zones merged into 3s, it just flows better that way. It's really evident when you play Dwarves over the Empire and you start actually collecting full provinces. It doesn't need to be everywhere, but the system does seem to make more sense when you have a couple extra building slots available per province, otherwise they need to be far more tailored then really necessary.

For instance the Bastonne province just west of Reikland has an armory available, if you ever want to use that you need to eat essentially the only open ended building slot available there, since you'll probably want gates until you clear the entire west, and you'll probably want the metalsmith or clothier for commerce. Now you have to move the barracks to the capital to get the armory recruiting bonus in that province, where if it just had a third town you could throw it there in the free slot.

Yeah there's a lot going on that makes it seem like they'll redraw the initial map at least once considering the extra wiggle room some of these factions require.

Wallet
Jun 19, 2006



peer posted:

Yeah, radious is indeed the guy to blame if for some reason you didn't totally love his Immortal Chariots and Immortal Elephants.

You'll be pleased to know that he has added "Warboss Immortulz" to the Orcs if you need your Immortal fix.

Zephro posted:

I've never tried a Radious mod but surely this defeats the point of having very different factions? Dwarfs are explicitly designed not to have cavalry, for instance...

Yes.

madmac
Jun 22, 2010


Kimsemus posted:

Yeah, that's why I added it as an option -- it does homogenize some things, I use it when playing Empire, simply because I feel like the Empire's core infantry choices are severely lacking late game compared to the other factions. Radious appears to be adding a whole lot of everything in his unit mods this go around -- much of it balanced around how much you can actually afford in upkeep/costs.

Having relatively weak infantry but awesome cav/artillery/heroes is kinda the whole point of being Empire though. While Radious has a history of modding this philosophy into every game it's especially out of place with Warhammer and it's intentionally asymmetrical factions.

Kimsemus
Dec 4, 2013

A peaceful land, a quiet people. That has always been my rule.


Toilet Rascal

Zephro posted:

I've never tried a Radious mod so maybe I'm misunderstanding what you're saying, but surely this defeats the point of having very different factions? Dwarfs are explicitly designed not to have cavalry, for instance...

Keep in mind the Radious Total War Mod is one thing, and the Radious Unit Mod has always been a separate thing. He keeps them separate because not everyone likes his unit choices. In Rome II he added absurd options for high level troops, in Total Warhammer he is trying to add tiered units all the way down. I personally like his unit mods, but it's completely optional compared to the actual rebalance mod.

madmac posted:

Having relatively weak infantry but awesome cav/artillery/heroes is kinda the whole point of being Empire though. While Radious has a history of modding this philosophy into every game it's especially out of place with Warhammer and it's intentionally asymmetrical factions.

That's not really canonical with the tabletop at all though, the Empire had some sublime elite/heavy infantry choices that made them fun to play. Plugging that gap hardly makes them symetrical imo.

Night10194
Feb 13, 2012

THE CODEX NERDSTARTES DOES NOT SUPPORT YOUR NIETZSCHEAN SUPERMEN ARTWORK! SO SAYETH WE ALL! *fart*

Fun Shoe

Zephro posted:

I've never tried a Radious mod so maybe I'm misunderstanding what you're saying, but surely this defeats the point of having very different factions? Dwarfs are explicitly designed not to have cavalry, for instance...

Modder has no idea of the actual design goals of original game, news at 11.

Mazz
Dec 12, 2012

Orion, this is Sperglord Actual.
Come on home.


My idea for Dwarves getting a cav type unit was to make Rangers that use decently high AP throwing axes and run around as fast or a little faster than Slayers do. They'd lose the shields and most of the armor along the way, but they'd basically be your flanking force if you really wanted one.

Every implementation I've seen on the workshop is just giving them more crossbows and vanguard deployment, like some sort of boring ranged miners.

I'm also making a Foot Reiksguard for myself but I've held off because I have the urge to make OP so I can just replace all the other foot infantry choices with them. I don't want to do that yet, since my empire campaigns aren't going awesome yet and that feels like blatant cheating at this point

Triskelli
Sep 26, 2011

I'M A SKELETON
WITH VERY HIGH
STANDARDS


Zephro posted:

I've never tried a Radious mod so maybe I'm misunderstanding what you're saying, but surely this defeats the point of having very different factions? Dwarfs are explicitly designed not to have cavalry, for instance...

And I can't tell you how many times I've seen people bemoaning that in casual surfing, and usually mentioning the mountain goats you saw Dwarves riding on in the Hobbit.

Mazz posted:

My idea for Dwarves getting a cav type unit was to make Rangers that use decently high AP throwing axes and run around as fast or a little faster than Slayers do. They'd lose the shields and most of the armor along the way, but they'd basically be your flanking force if you really wanted one.

Every implementation I've seen on the workshop is just giving them more crossbows and vanguard deployment, like some sort of boring ranged miners.

The Tabletop Rangers are both of these things though.

Triskelli fucked around with this message at Jun 8, 2016 around 19:02

Fangz
Jul 5, 2007

Oh I see! This must be the Bad Opinion Zone!


LGD posted:

This is wildly untrue because of the way province capitals and banked growth work. You can get the 1-2 population for rank 2-3 cities/towns very quickly and it will replenish almost instantly, but building up to the 4 and 5 population needed to raise capitals above rank 3 takes much longer even with multiple settlements because of the way scaling on banked growth works. If you've only got a single settlement providing +growth it potentially takes forever (though this is a bigger deal for Dwarfs than Humans due to how much of their roster is locked away at tier 4 and 5).

You also don't need a public order building in every settlement, but you do need at least one in every province and sometimes more depending on difficulty/location. Two city provinces absolutely have issues building infrastructure compared to 3-4 city provinces.

Oh alright. Personally I just don't build up more than two to three provinces beyond rank 3. Heck I even delay the rank 3 settlement upgrade (except on frontiers where I need the garrison) until I have a rank 2 weaver in every single city. I get the sense that's probably the best build in terms of return on investment. Anyway ultimately I don't see a lot of difference. Worth pointing out that the 2-city provinces near the Empire correspond to two-city factions, which enables a number of limited wars for you.

Fangz fucked around with this message at Jun 8, 2016 around 19:00

LGD
Sep 25, 2004



Zephro posted:

I've never tried a Radious mod so maybe I'm misunderstanding what you're saying, but surely this defeats the point of having very different factions? Dwarfs are explicitly designed not to have cavalry, for instance...

hey, the gyrocopters are kind of like Dwarf cavalry

which is honestly one of the biggest issues I have with the Dwarfs, too much of their roster is locked away behind very inflexible Tier 4 and especially Tier 5 buildings, including most of the more interesting and game changing units, so you hardly get to play with them before you finish things up

Zephro
Nov 23, 2000

I suppose I could part with one and still be feared...


Triskelli posted:

And I can't tell you how many times I've seen people bemoaning that in casual surfing, and usually mentioning the mountain goats you saw Dwarves riding on in the Hobbit.
They have priests in World of Warcraft too, why no Warrior Priest for Dorfs CA?

I wonder if they also complain about Chaos and VC having no ranged or Orcs having no ability to spread corruption or whether they ever actually figure out that this is a feature rather than a bug.

madmac
Jun 22, 2010


Kimsemus posted:

That's not really canonical with the tabletop at all though, the Empire had some sublime elite/heavy infantry choices that made them fun to play. Plugging that gap hardly makes them symetrical imo.

I don't play TT, so I'm trying not to be to big a nerd here, but wut? To my knowledge the only infantry units from the game Empire is missing are all relatively weak/light units. Free Company, Flaggelants, Archers, and Huntsmen. What are these sublime heavy infantry units you're talking about?

quote:

which is honestly one of the biggest issues I have with the Dwarfs, too much of their roster is locked away behind very inflexible Tier 4 and especially Tier 5 buildings, including most of the more interesting and game changing units, so you hardly get to play with them before you finish things up

I remember CA early on talking about how they gave Dwarves a more complicated building tree and econ techs to better capture the flavor of the race or whatever, but the whole thing kind of runs into a wall when you remember that Dwarves have the same number of building slots as everyone else.

I guess it does give them a huge incentive to turtle a bunch and build tall, which is relatively dwarfy maybe.

madmac fucked around with this message at Jun 8, 2016 around 19:04

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Kimsemus
Dec 4, 2013

A peaceful land, a quiet people. That has always been my rule.


Toilet Rascal

LGD posted:

hey, the gyrocopters are kind of like Dwarf cavalry

which is honestly one of the biggest issues I have with the Dwarfs, too much of their roster is locked away behind very inflexible Tier 4 and especially Tier 5 buildings, including most of the more interesting and game changing units, so you hardly get to play with them before you finish things up

I want to say this is because Dwarves are supposed to turtle harder into higher tiers compared to other races by design choice, but what CA was going for.

madmac posted:

I don't play TT, so I'm trying not to be to big a nerd here, but wut? To my knowledge the only infantry units from the game Empire is missing are all relatively weak/light units. Free Company, Flaggelants, Archers, and Huntsmen. What are these sublime heavy infantry units you're talking about?

Flaggelants are already mentioned but amazing, Knights of the Blazing Sun, and the various army upgrades that made State Troops exponentially tougher, anchored by unbelievably good champions when kitted properly.

In TT, a properly kitted/lead state troop heavy army with proper equips and elites could stand against pretty much anything without much of an issue as their cavalry pretty much annihilated everything in the known universe. I played Empire pretty heavily in TT and like IG in WH40K, it all came down to kit kit kit.

Kimsemus fucked around with this message at Jun 8, 2016 around 19:08

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