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Pipski
Apr 18, 2004



Any tips for not getting my poo poo comprehensively pushed in by Bretonnia? Their knights just marmalise me every time, by a ratio of like 6:1. I've only just got access to knights - and I have that one unit of Reiksguard I've been carefully preserving since the start - nothing that can compete with 300 of the bastards stamping all over my lovely spearmen.

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terrorist ambulance
Nov 5, 2009


Make sure your spears are braced (not moving) when they get charged.

Arglebargle III
Feb 21, 2006



Mordja posted:

About that; what are the Tomb Kings' specialty, anyway? Or are they an all-rounder faction like the Empire?

Being awful, on tabletop. They had an underwhelming army list in 5th edition I think and were never updated from 6th to the end of support.

Theoretically they're more like a lovely human army than an undead army. They use cheap regenerating tarpits like undead, but have a complete roster with ranged, artillery, and cavalry like a human army. They also have some monsters.

I think one problem they've always had is that nobody knew what they were supposed to do. Undead skirmishers with monsters? Lots of cheap, bad ranged cavalry? Characters that buff "elite" skeleton axe infantry to sort-of-okay levels?

They have a cool aesthetic and story, since Nagash's spell was so good that a lot of them retain the personality they had in life. You have skeleton mans farming and fishing and politicking in their pyramids because as far as their single-minded undead brains are concerned they're still a human empire with human affairs. They're undead with some personality. And their tomb guardian Egypt style magic statues are neat monsters.

I think they could be a good faction with a very cheap and flexible empire-style roster backed up by necromancy and monsters, but they desperately need a balance pass. Hordes of garbage troops need to be balanced out with some standout units and some synergy with their characters. On the tabletop they never got that. Even their magic synergy stuff had amazingly lovely abilities, like lords who didn't cause crumble checks on certain units when they died. So for the ability to fire you'd have to pretty much lose the game.

Flexible skirmish style undead could be a cool idea, like characters getting to place free reinforcing skeleton horse archers anywhere in deployment or something.

Perestroika
Apr 8, 2010



Mordja posted:

About that; what are the Tomb Kings' specialty, anyway? Or are they an all-rounder faction like the Empire?

In many respects they're similar in to the Vampire Counts, in that they don't have to deal with morale, cause fear, and have a lot of lovely skeletons to make up their front line. But where Vampire counts lean on monsters and very powerful characters to do their killing, Tomb Kings instead get some actually fairly respectable shooting (they basically have magic arrows for all their archers), and pretty mobile cavalry and especially chariots. They do also have some monsters and monstrous infantry, but it's not as much of a focus for them as it is for VC. Their Lords also serve more in a buffing role, rather than the standalone combat monsters that vampires tend to be.

peer
Jan 17, 2004

this is not what I wanted

Mordja posted:

About that; what are the Tomb Kings' specialty, anyway? Or are they an all-rounder faction like the Empire?

From memory, they've got

- powerful melee lords, with a tiny bit of spellcasting ability (only unit buffs/regeneration, I think)
- weak necromancer-type casters
- archers with low base accuracy, but ignoring to-hit penalties
- the screaming skull catapult
- no heavy cavalry
- no real heavy infantry
- a bone giant
- monstrous infantry that can also be equipped with giant bows
- units of light chariots
- a cool Egyptian theme

They also apparently had some giant monsters added at some point after I stopped playing but I don't know anything about those except the models look silly.

DiHK
Feb 4, 2013



Arglebargle III posted:

Warhammer the game is known for terrible balance, so you'd never see certain armies like Tomb Kings or Beastmen.

I don't know about WHFB but 40ks thing is to intentionally unbalance things improve to sell the army of the fiscal quarter.

Ravenfood
Nov 4, 2011


terrorist ambulance posted:

Make sure your spears are braced (not moving) when they get charged.

I know it's because I'm terrible, but I'd like to have some visual bonus that this was happening, you know? You can see a charge and know you got the charge bonus, but if infantry with bracing bonuses actually braced when stationary/prior to contact from the front it'd both look better and give bads like me more cues about what's happening to my little dudes.

Arglebargle III
Feb 21, 2006



Perestroika posted:

In many respects they're similar in to the Vampire Counts, in that they don't have to deal with morale, cause fear, and have a lot of lovely skeletons to make up their front line. But where Vampire counts lean on monsters and very powerful characters to do their killing, Tomb Kings instead get some actually fairly respectable shooting (they basically have magic arrows for all their archers), and pretty mobile cavalry and especially chariots. They do also have some monsters and monstrous infantry, but it's not as much of a focus for them as it is for VC. Their Lords also serve more in a buffing role, rather than the standalone combat monsters that vampires tend to be.

"Actually fairly respectable" was the best Tomb Kings units had to offer, which was the problem. So their skeleton archers hit 1/3 of their shots, but they always hit 1/3 of their shots! These skeleton ax guys still have awful stats, but they don't hit last if you include a lord in their unit to buff them! These skeleton cavalry can barely take out 10 Wood Elf archers, but they are technically fast cavalry! And on and on, they just sort of limped through the game with mediocre everything.

If I was going to balance them I'd probably make it so you could choose between mediocre basic troops and powerful characters and monsters, or go the buffing route and have a decent-ish line with actually powerful chariots and cavalry, but your monsters and characters would be more for utility than winning the battle.

Kimsemus
Dec 4, 2013

A peaceful land, a quiet people. That has always been my rule.


Toilet Rascal

Pipski posted:

Any tips for not getting my poo poo comprehensively pushed in by Bretonnia? Their knights just marmalise me every time, by a ratio of like 6:1. I've only just got access to knights - and I have that one unit of Reiksguard I've been carefully preserving since the start - nothing that can compete with 300 of the bastards stamping all over my lovely spearmen.

Checkerboard with rifles -- your units are thick enough to brace most charges so spears can do work, and rifles pretty much melt their knights.

terrorist ambulance
Nov 5, 2009


Are you guys talking about 8th edition TKs? Didn't they have huge skeletons with ballista bows and huge animated murder statues and snake riders and cool monstrous poo poo in addition to so-so undead infantry and cav

Hammerstein
May 6, 2005

YOU DON'T KNOW A DAMN THING ABOUT RACING !

A unit which is monster and siege engine in one, sounds really fun. I also wish giants could throw boulders.

LGD
Sep 25, 2004



Kimsemus posted:

Checkerboard with rifles -- your units are thick enough to brace most charges so spears can do work, and rifles pretty much melt their knights.

Also consider upgrading from men with pointy sticks to men with sticks that have a sweet can opener attachment (Halberds).

Pipski
Apr 18, 2004



Kimsemus posted:

Checkerboard with rifles -- your units are thick enough to brace most charges so spears can do work, and rifles pretty much melt their knights.

LGD posted:

Also consider upgrading from men with pointy sticks to men with sticks that have a sweet can opener attachment (Halberds).

terrorist ambulance posted:

Make sure your spears are braced (not moving) when they get charged.

Ta. Sounds like I need to junk some of these older units and spend a bit more on their replacements. They were ploughing through orcs with no difficulty, but I guess poo poo is getting real now.

Fans
Jun 27, 2013

It will be a shit show


Tomb Kings on the tabletop were just bad. You could pull off wins with a bit of luck or some serious skill, but they were pretty much the trash tier of armies on Tabletop.

However if they completely ignore the awful tabletop rules and just let them be a Vampire Count like army but with a unit roster of crazy giant skeleton monsters, skeleton archers and badass chariots (Piloted by skeletons) they'll be great.

Arglebargle III
Feb 21, 2006



Chariots made of skeletons!

Fans
Jun 27, 2013

It will be a shit show


And Skeletons manning Skeleton Catapults that fire screaming skeleton skulls at the enemy.

If you don't like the Vampire Count skeletons you may want to skip this army. You are also wrong because they are great.

Arglebargle III
Feb 21, 2006



terrorist ambulance posted:

Are you guys talking about 8th edition TKs? Didn't they have huge skeletons with ballista bows and huge animated murder statues and snake riders and cool monstrous poo poo in addition to so-so undead infantry and cav

Yeah aesthetically it's cool as hell. I hope CA does their balance thing for them without making them play the same as vampire counts.

Nash
Jul 31, 2003

Sign my 'Bring Goldberg Back' Petition

Arglebargle III posted:

Chariots made of skeletons!

I like the cut of your jib

Arglebargle III
Feb 21, 2006



The surplus of kings is an especially nice touch. Since they were petty kingdoms and every generation of rulers got resurrected, and they're immortal, there are way way too many kings, like hundreds and hundreds of them. Too many kings with too many soldiers running around fighting an undead forever war, only stopping when Settra decides to gently caress something up or an invading army comes to loot some tombs.

Imagine how you'd feel if you woke up and some rear end in a top hat great-great grandson decided he got to be the king! Ungrateful poo poo! Fortunately all your loyal immortal soldiers are pretty sure their king is the real king, and bang you get a thousand years of pointless battles in the desert.

Arglebargle III fucked around with this message at Jun 8, 2016 around 22:08

Night10194
Feb 13, 2012

THE CODEX NERDSTARTES DOES NOT SUPPORT YOUR NIETZSCHEAN SUPERMEN ARTWORK! SO SAYETH WE ALL! *fart*

Fun Shoe

Everything about the Tomb Kings except for their TT rules is rad as hell.

420 Gank Mid
Dec 25, 2008

WARNING: This poster is a huge bitch!


Pipski posted:

Any tips for not getting my poo poo comprehensively pushed in by Bretonnia? Their knights just marmalise me every time, by a ratio of like 6:1. I've only just got access to knights - and I have that one unit of Reiksguard I've been carefully preserving since the start - nothing that can compete with 300 of the bastards stamping all over my lovely spearmen.

You're playing as empire right?

Bring loads up artillery and fight them in their cities. Bretonnian AI loves to have 6-12 cards of cavalry in a 20 stack and most of them will be uselessly mulling around the town square where you can pummel them and their friends with hellfire rockets until you can overwhelm them with lovely spearmen

rockopete
Jan 19, 2005



TK had the best lore, I can't wait for them.

Two city provinces are much easier to defend and raise armies in. Playing as Empire, at least, they also offer two high end unit paths rather than one, so I usually prefer them. Also the armies are easier to consolidate once recruited.

DiHK posted:

Radious uses a ~warhammer~ when he should be using a scalpel. There are artful ways to achieve longer fights that don't make for boring meat grinders. For example the Proper Combat Mod does a much better job of extending combat withonly a few across the board changes and a variety of small tweaks.

Even proper combat needs some tweaking. For instance, trolls can become ridiculously good with a morale buff because pure damage is their strength and low morale is their main weakness. Trolls that stick around for a bit longer or don't break as quickly in the face of ranged fire will kill many more men and demolish a battle line, and casualties don't get the benefit of higher morale so it's not inherently compensated for.

lilspooky
Mar 21, 2006


Two questions...

1) For those of you guys who have played a lot of the older Total War games. How is CA's track record on patching / fixing things. Can we reasonably expect them to address the various problems with certain units being over/underpowered or is that doubtful?

2) For those of you who played Warhammer on the table-top long after I had stopped playing. Were Empire Demigryph knights ridiculous there too?

Fangz
Jul 5, 2007

Oh I see! This must be the Bad Opinion Zone!


lilspooky posted:

Two questions...

1) For those of you guys who have played a lot of the older Total War games. How is CA's track record on patching / fixing things. Can we reasonably expect them to address the various problems with certain units being over/underpowered or is that doubtful?

2) For those of you who played Warhammer on the table-top long after I had stopped playing. Were Empire Demigryph knights ridiculous there too?

They already said that a rebalance patch is coming, but that they are still investigating what exactly needs to be done.

DiHK
Feb 4, 2013



I haven't tried living trolls yet so this isn't first hand... But: because they regenerate wouldn't low morale be a feature? They run, regroup, regenerate, and come back?

Or is their morale so bad that it never recovers?

Or maybe greenskin armies don't last long enough for that to matter?

I'm betting it's the last one.

Ra Ra Rasputin
Apr 2, 2011


Crypt horrors just seem like trolls upgraded in every aspect and without a morale penalty, and then poison attacks tacked on, all for the same cost or cheaper then actual trolls.

They really should cost 50% more.

DiHK
Feb 4, 2013



Crypt horrors are the bomb diggity.

lilspooky
Mar 21, 2006


Fangz posted:

They already said that a rebalance patch is coming, but that they are still investigating what exactly needs to be done.

I know they're working on a patch, but I'm asking what their track record is for actually seeming to properly fix things based on how they handled the older games.

Chomp8645
Sep 1, 2006

Don't ever leave me hangin' buddy!

lilspooky posted:

I know they're working on a patch, but I'm asking what their track record is for actually seeming to properly fix things based on how they handled the older games.

I think "iffy" is the only objective way to put it.

Voyager I
Jun 29, 2012

This is how your posting feels.


DiHK posted:

I haven't tried living trolls yet so this isn't first hand... But: because they regenerate wouldn't low morale be a feature? They run, regroup, regenerate, and come back?

Or is their morale so bad that it never recovers?

Or maybe greenskin armies don't last long enough for that to matter?

I'm betting it's the last one.

It's basically cycle charging, except the cycles are dictated by your unit breaking / rallying rather than when you actually need it to be somewhere.


Kimsemus posted:

Checkerboard with rifles -- your units are thick enough to brace most charges so spears can do work, and rifles pretty much melt their knights.

I'd be pretty dubious about checkerboarding with the Empire. Dwarven melee units are tough enough to bear the burden and their ranged units won't melt if some enemies slip through the gaps, but Empire infantry is of generally lower quality and their Handgunners will just die if you let cavalry hit them.

Voyager I fucked around with this message at Jun 8, 2016 around 22:43

Wilekat
Sep 24, 2007


Holy poo poo.

I just had one of those videogame moments I've read about but never experienced before.

Decided to go ahead and do Ungrim's quest for the Slayer Crown, which is a battle against a blob of VC chaff, basically. I'm really bad for getting overwhelmed on the flanks with Dwarfs and, while the checkerboard held for a remarkable amount of time, cohesion collapsed under the sheer mass of the filthy hordes.

As poo poo begins to deteriorate, two things become apparent -

- Ungrim's band of slayers are doing pretty loving well against two units of Black Knights and dogs, to the point that when they get support from a group of warriors the whole lot crumble around them, with two brave slayers left alive.

- Ungrim Ironfist is going to die, today.

Everything is going badly. Very, very badly. Grudgethrowers have been swarmed by bats and are out of commission, the line is rolling up with no hope of further support anywhere and Dwarfs are dying in embarrassing numbers. The one point of hope is right in the middle of the line, where Ungrim is doggedly slaughtering ghosts, dogs, bats, dead horses, dead humans, their skeletons and anything else that dares come near him. The Vampire Count on his great zombie dragon takes umbridge to this and dives into the line to eat him alive and Ungrim scoffs, cracks him in the face with his axe and the Count breaks, fleeing into the skies. The Slayer King returns to his work.

The vampire returns to the battle at the other end of the massacre and finishes rolling up the line. Ungrim, struggling to break out of the insane cloud of undead around him to give chase, gives up trying to break out and resolves to take as many of the creatures with him as he can before he finally meets his end.

Once the rest of the Dwarf army is beaten, with just Ungrim left on the field outside a few straggling Dwarfs who have survived and rallied somewhere far off, the Vampire Count returns for his prize. Diving headlong into the Dwarf, so busy with all the other foes around him, the end is nigh...

...except Ungrim kills him instantly. With the Count and his dragon slain, the strength of the rest of the unholy horde collapses, they all crumble to dust, and the Slayer King claims his crown.

This is the most thing I've ever seen happen to me in a videogame.



Ungrim doesn't even have any good gear. No regeneration, potions or anything. He has a banner which causes terror, which is pretty appropriate, considering.

Shumagorath
Jun 5, 2001


Trolls seem to be a waste for Chaos at least. They're the same tier you start to get your best line infantry and (iirc) loving wizards. Spawn are one tier up on a chain you want anyway they're not only endgame material but they fight to the death.

Are Fell Bats useful beyond the early game? I suppose if the enemy masses siege units there's no way a matching number of Terrorgheists is cost-effective.

Shumagorath fucked around with this message at Jun 8, 2016 around 22:47

Arglebargle III
Feb 21, 2006



What are people's opinions about chariots?

Shumagorath
Jun 5, 2001


Arglebargle III posted:

What are people's opinions about chariots?
The Chaos Gorebeast is worth it just for its absurdly low upkeep when you're going to be on that line anyway for Hellcannons. Performance-wise it seems like the A.I. is way more effective with them than I am, but I'd take a unit of Chaos Knights or Lancers over them any day if their upkeep wasn't clearly a typo.

Kimsemus
Dec 4, 2013

A peaceful land, a quiet people. That has always been my rule.


Toilet Rascal

Arglebargle III posted:

What are people's opinions about chariots?

Gorebeasts are good and plow really deep into lines allowing your Warriors to flood in behind, but I have a hard time every justifying chariots over regularly cavalry.

DiHK
Feb 4, 2013



Wilekat posted:

Holy poo poo.

This is the most thing I've ever seen happen to me in a videogame.

This is the number 1 reason why this game is a contender best TW ever.

Early in my VC campaign Templehoff bum rushed me with a full stack after I took one one of the northward cities. I was trapped and seriously overmatched. All but Manny and his vargulf died fairly quickly and I spent a good 8 minutes just healing the Vargulf, meleeing Templehoff down and whacking undead. They whittled through 6 units

I named the Vargulf Fluffy.

Ice Fist
Jun 20, 2012

^^ Please send feedback to beefstache911@hotmail.com, this is not a joke that 'stache is the real deal. Serious assessments only. ^^


Wilekat posted:

Holy poo poo.

I just had one of those videogame moments I've read about but never experienced before.

Decided to go ahead and do Ungrim's quest for the Slayer Crown, which is a battle against a blob of VC chaff, basically. I'm really bad for getting overwhelmed on the flanks with Dwarfs and, while the checkerboard held for a remarkable amount of time, cohesion collapsed under the sheer mass of the filthy hordes.

As poo poo begins to deteriorate, two things become apparent -

- Ungrim's band of slayers are doing pretty loving well against two units of Black Knights and dogs, to the point that when they get support from a group of warriors the whole lot crumble around them, with two brave slayers left alive.

- Ungrim Ironfist is going to die, today.

Everything is going badly. Very, very badly. Grudgethrowers have been swarmed by bats and are out of commission, the line is rolling up with no hope of further support anywhere and Dwarfs are dying in embarrassing numbers. The one point of hope is right in the middle of the line, where Ungrim is doggedly slaughtering ghosts, dogs, bats, dead horses, dead humans, their skeletons and anything else that dares come near him. The Vampire Count on his great zombie dragon takes umbridge to this and dives into the line to eat him alive and Ungrim scoffs, cracks him in the face with his axe and the Count breaks, fleeing into the skies. The Slayer King returns to his work.

The vampire returns to the battle at the other end of the massacre and finishes rolling up the line. Ungrim, struggling to break out of the insane cloud of undead around him to give chase, gives up trying to break out and resolves to take as many of the creatures with him as he can before he finally meets his end.

Once the rest of the Dwarf army is beaten, with just Ungrim left on the field outside a few straggling Dwarfs who have survived and rallied somewhere far off, the Vampire Count returns for his prize. Diving headlong into the Dwarf, so busy with all the other foes around him, the end is nigh...

...except Ungrim kills him instantly. With the Count and his dragon slain, the strength of the rest of the unholy horde collapses, they all crumble to dust, and the Slayer King claims his crown.

This is the most thing I've ever seen happen to me in a videogame.



Ungrim doesn't even have any good gear. No regeneration, potions or anything. He has a banner which causes terror, which is pretty appropriate, considering.

My favorite moment of all time in any total war game was when my mint condition iron breaker/hammerer/slayer/quarreler/cannon army got caught out by two VC armies and a garrison. It was loving glorious, just endless undead infantry dying helplessly. I had over 3k kills.

Mazz
Dec 12, 2012

Orion, this is Sperglord Actual.
Come on home.


Released the tier 4 minors for all factions mod, grab it on Steam if you're using any of the smaller ones since I'm going to delete those in a couple days. Also, looking into it the AI did need some prodding to get them to go that high on the settlement tree, since they had bounds set at the existing settlement tiers. Fixed that too.

Wallet
Jun 19, 2006



Mazz posted:

Released the tier 4 minors for all factions mod, grab it on Steam if you're using any of the smaller ones since I'm going to delete those in a couple days. Also, looking into it the AI did need some prodding to get them to go that high on the settlement tree, since they had bounds set at the existing settlement tiers. Fixed that too.

Have you poked around in the diplomacy AI at all? I'm not familiar with it, but I'm sort of wondering how lovely it would be to modify the AI's willingness to become someone's vassal.

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Sjonnar
Oct 22, 2011


DiHK posted:

This is the number 1 reason why this game is a contender best TW ever.

Early in my VC campaign Templehoff bum rushed me with a full stack after I took one one of the northward cities. I was trapped and seriously overmatched. All but Manny and his vargulf died fairly quickly and I spent a good 8 minutes just healing the Vargulf, meleeing Templehoff down and whacking undead. They whittled through 6 units

I named the Vargulf Fluffy.

Same, right down to the varghulf's name, but I charged Templehof on the first turn instead of the other way round, and fought him, his garrison, and the leader dude in the castle. Sniped his lord with Manny and Fluffy and spent the next 15 minutes managing Fluffy's HP.

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