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Sorry for the delay - Episode 11 - A Change Of Mind Number 6 beats up some bullies and is sent to the principle's office. Then all of the other kids give him the cold shoulder. I hate the inciting incident for this episode, I just don't buy that there are gangs roaming around the Village looking for a fight but I do love where the episode goes. How does Number 2 not realize that 86 was the drugged one when he calls her back? Does she think she is just being a stupid flirty female? Also, why aren't the bullies considered Unmutual? Or are they a ploy to make Number 6 Unmutual? The episode was directed by Patrick McGoohan (as Joseph Serf) Number 2 - played by John Sharpe  FEMALES!  STUPID WOMAN! The most Truman Capote of all the Number 2's This episode is also one of the most quotable of the series. Unmutual! I'm inadequate! Inadequate! I cannot stand girls who do not know how to make a decent cup of tea. I was saved by social conversion. The butcher with a sharpest knife has the warmest heart. The ending makes me think of that line from Life of Brian: -You're ALL individuals! -Yes! We're all individuals! -You're all different! -Yes, we ARE all different! -I'm not. -Shh. So, philosophically I love this episode but the narrative makes not sense at all. I think it all could have been simplified and they over-scienced the whole thing. And not for nothing, but I have a crush on Number 42. 
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Aug 30, 2016 15:51
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York_M_Chan posted:And not for nothing, but I have a crush on Number 42. Be seeing her 
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Aug 30, 2016 16:55
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York_M_Chan posted:So, philosophically I love this episode but the narrative makes not sense at all. I think it all could have been simplified and they over-scienced the whole thing. This is basically my thoughts on the episode too. Great concept, the social ostracization of the Prisoner so that even though he feels nothing but contempt for the Village he can't help but feel lonely and unloved when everybody starts ignoring him. But the plan is too convoluted for no reason, and the fakeout with the lobotomy machine was such a bizarre choice since it seemed designed to make the Prisoner realize he felt no different (why sneak him sedatives in his tea instead of just injecting him with it while he was unconscious?). The scene where he returns to his private gym and seems unable to work up the aggression to use the gear is really bizarre, especially with the bullies (really? bullies in the Village?) showing back up and him acting like the fact he could still fight was some big revelation. It's really neat how he turns the tables on Number 2 but it does bring up another issue I have with the show, in that the Prisoner will often use information about how Village Society works to twist it back around on his captors.... except that often relies on the information he is given being accurate and not just more loving with his head. In this episode in particular it is made clear that the Committee operates with independent authority to Number 2 who warns the Prisoner he is powerless to do anything about their judgement, but then we learn that Number 2 is actually running the whole thing as an operation to trick the Prisoner.... but then Number 2 ends up a victim of the UNMUTUAL branding so is the Committee an independent power from him or not? There's a few criticisms there, but I really dug the episode anyway and especially McGoohan's acting. Loved the Prisoner attempting to bite his tongue and pretend to be calm, that moment where he's trying to get her out of the room to get his rug and she won't go and he just screeches at her to go get it is fantastic.
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Aug 30, 2016 23:20
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You know it makes sense that everybody in the Village would have just learned to mostly ignore the Butler and treat him as an inanimate ficture of life, but it's starting to seem weird to me that even the Prisoner never bothers to try to probe him or see if he's really mute or just has nothing to say.
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Aug 30, 2016 23:27
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Even the Prisoner knows that you can't gently caress with the butler
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Aug 30, 2016 23:41
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That's because The Butler is actually Number One.
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Aug 31, 2016 04:18
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Astroman posted:That's because The Butler is actually Number One. "I am the new Number 2!" "Who is Number 1!?!" "The little dude over there." "...oh."
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Aug 31, 2016 05:42
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PassTheRemote posted:
I didn't realize that the picture linked to the whole issue. Oh what tricks The Village plays.
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Aug 31, 2016 14:11
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Astroman posted:That's because The Butler is actually Number One. I'd genuinely be expecting this if I didn't think that it's too easy and stock twist-y.
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Aug 31, 2016 17:15
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Jerusalem posted:It's really neat how he turns the tables on Number 2 You'd think he'd realize that if Number 6 ever suggests anything, even if Number 2 thinks he has him completely under his thumb, that he should do the exact opposite. I don't think the council really overrules Number 2, it's just that at that moment he's been outmaneuvered. A few hours he'll be back in his office, drinking his tea, and waiting for the phone to ring and let him know that the new Number 2 is on their way. I feel like this episode has a pretty strong first half and a pretty weak second half. Playing out the social pressures of the Village was good. The threat of lobotomy hanging over everything was good. The plan to convince Number 6 that he had been lobotomized was not. Also, the "bullies" were obviously plants set up to put things in motion and later to intimidate a presumably drugged Number 6.
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Aug 31, 2016 22:45
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Random Stranger posted:I feel like this episode has a pretty strong first half and a pretty weak second half. Playing out the social pressures of the Village was good. The threat of lobotomy hanging over everything was good. The plan to convince Number 6 that he had been lobotomized was not. Yeah this bit is especially dumb, since he's repeatedly been told that they're not willing to damage his mind in order to get the knowledge they want. Like hell would they lobotomize him.
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Sep 1, 2016 00:26
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Jerusalem posted:"I am the new Number 2!" I'm imagining No. 6 just going ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ and then blending in normally with the Village after that.
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Sep 1, 2016 17:25
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An interesting question is what answer would satisfy the Village where it comes to the reason 6 retired? There are a number of answers that could be entirely true that likely would not satisfy any given Number 2. Especially after resisting as long as he does, would they believe him if he ever did crack?
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Sep 1, 2016 19:51
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remusclaw posted:An interesting question is what answer would satisfy the Village where it comes to the reason 6 retired? There are a number of answers that could be entirely true that likely would not satisfy any given Number 2. Especially after resisting as long as he does, would they believe him if he ever did crack? I'm not even sure they care that much about why he quit, anymore. By this point, it's probably just about breaking him in general. It's not like they're gonna let him leave, right?
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Sep 1, 2016 20:01
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And More posted:I'm not even sure they care that much about why he quit, anymore. By this point, it's probably just about breaking him in general. It's not like they're gonna let him leave, right? Yeah, my impression is that getting him to talk is the means to an end; they want to turn him. Or at the very least, prove their strength of their ideology.
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Sep 2, 2016 00:37
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Random Stranger posted:Yeah, my impression is that getting him to talk is the means to an end; they want to turn him. Or at the very least, prove their strength of their ideology. That could be it. The resignation is just a hook, it's meaningless. But if they could get him to vocalize why he resigned, they could say "ah, so you felt THAT way, now listen to our pitch!" I wonder if McGoohan knew, or if he had any idea of the real secret behind The Village at all. Or was the concept just a vehicle to tell the stories he wanted? IIRC he was always cagey about it, even in interviews years later.
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Sep 2, 2016 01:38
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The Village doesn't care why he retired (the answer is in his file, after all). They care about whether he's being honest. They assume that everything #6 has ever done - including retirement - is a play in an international spy-game. It dumbfounds them to even consider that he may have just wanted to quit playing the game.
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Sep 2, 2016 03:04
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It's nowhere near as good as The Prisoner obviously, and it kind of went off a cliff towards the end but I really loved that old show Nowhere Man about a guy whose life gets destroyed by a shadowy organization after he publishes a photo of some soldiers being hung during a war. As the series goes on and he clings on tighter and tighter to his original negatives of the photos it becomes increasingly clear that the photo is actually completely irrelevant and in fact he's actually mostly going along with what they want by continuing to put any stock in it.... OR IS HE!?! There was a really neat episode where he meets another guy who was on the run who tells him he invented some amazing fuel efficient engine and then after like a decade on the run he opened a magazine and saw his blueprints just casually published and realized that he had no idea what the hell he was even running for anymore. I like that idea for The Prisoner, that the reason behind the resignation is irrelevant and it's more about giving him something to cling on to so that when they finally get him to reveal it, it will completely break his will even though it has no value whatsoever.
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Sep 2, 2016 04:25
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Nowhere Man is one of the best shows ever. Not as amazing as The Prisoner, but darned close, and a high point of 90s tv. Plus it has a young Captain Pike.
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Sep 2, 2016 05:18
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Jerusalem posted:This is basically my thoughts on the episode too. Great concept, the social ostracization of the Prisoner so that even though he feels nothing but contempt for the Village he can't help but feel lonely and unloved when everybody starts ignoring him. But the plan is too convoluted for no reason, and the fakeout with the lobotomy machine was such a bizarre choice since it seemed designed to make the Prisoner realize he felt no different (why sneak him sedatives in his tea instead of just injecting him with it while he was unconscious?). The scene where he returns to his private gym and seems unable to work up the aggression to use the gear is really bizarre, especially with the bullies (really? bullies in the Village?) showing back up and him acting like the fact he could still fight was some big revelation. Jerusalem posted:I like that idea for The Prisoner, that the reason behind the resignation is irrelevant and it's more about giving him something to cling on to so that when they finally get him to reveal it, it will completely break his will even though it has no value whatsoever.
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Sep 2, 2016 13:57
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precision posted:The Village doesn't care why he retired (the answer is in his file, after all). They care about whether he's being honest. They assume that everything #6 has ever done - including retirement - is a play in an international spy-game. Is it? He handed in a letter of resignation, true, but we all know those are bullshit 'i regret to inform you of my intention to end my employment as of {date}' platitudes.
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Sep 2, 2016 17:15
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Astroman posted:That could be it. The resignation is just a hook, it's meaningless. But if they could get him to vocalize why he resigned, they could say "ah, so you felt THAT way, now listen to our pitch!" I don't think it's actually spoilers since they aborted the plot early on, but here's some Wikipedia nonsense about what could have been: According to author James Follett... Markstein had mapped out an explanation for the Village... [A] young John Drake, the lead character in the television series Danger Man, had once submitted a proposal for how to deal with retired secret agents who posed a security risk. Drake's idea was to create a comfortable retirement home where former agents could live out their final years, enduring firm but unintrusive surveillance. Years later, Drake discovered that his idea had been put into practice, and not as a benign means of retirement, but instead as an interrogation centre and a prison camp. Outraged, Drake staged his own resignation, knowing he would be brought to the Village. He hoped to learn everything he could of how his idea had been implemented and find a way to destroy it. However, due to the range of nationalities and agents present in the Village, Drake realised he was not sure whose Village he was in – the one brought about by his own people or by the other side... According to Markstein: "'Who is Number Six?' is no mystery – he was a secret agent called Drake who quit." In the episodes "Arrival," "Once Upon a Time" and "The Chimes of Big Ben," Number Six declares his resignation to be "a matter of conscience," that he left his job "for peace of mind -- because too many people know too much. I know too much" and that the concerns he alludes to had weighed on his mind "for a very long time," all of which takes on greater meaning with Markstein's intention to reveal that Number Six had long ago created a proposal for how to protect elderly intelligence agents with too much secret information to go unsupervised. ... However, Markstein's falling out with McGoohan resulted in Markstein's departure, and his story arc was discarded.
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Sep 2, 2016 17:19
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Chokes McGee posted:I don't think it's actually spoilers since they aborted the plot early on, but here's some Wikipedia nonsense about what could have been: That's not a bad way to go with it. I think I like what we got better given the tone of the series, but if they went that way it still would have been some groundbreaking television as the forerrunner of similar high concept shows that started breaking out in the 90's.
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Sep 3, 2016 00:17
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Random Stranger posted:That's not a bad way to go with it. I think I like what we got better given the tone of the series, but if they went that way it still would have been some groundbreaking television as the forerrunner of similar high concept shows that started breaking out in the 90's. I actually do like the real ending more for the same reason but I'll leave it at that. e: that's yet another reason I like Shattered Visage, it manages to combine the two endings pretty seamlessly and still manages to be satisfying. Chokes McGee fucked around with this message at 00:44 on Sep 3, 2016 |
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Sep 3, 2016 00:40
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Happy 50th, Number 6! http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/in-pictures-37232329 Shooting started on the show on 5 September 1966.
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Sep 5, 2016 08:49
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Age ain't nothing but a number... I am not a number, I am a free man.
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Sep 5, 2016 10:23
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rfVaN7NvzaA&t=314s Great story.
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Sep 5, 2016 12:21
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When can we talk about Hammer into Anvil? Because I just watched it and  I think that may be my favorite episode so far.
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Sep 6, 2016 08:17
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Jerusalem posted:When can we talk about Hammer into Anvil? Because I just watched it and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=utQi3axTBak In France l'Arlesienne is a literary trope named after the book/theater piece the Arlesienne (the girl from Arles). The titular character never actually appears in the story, despite being central to it (the protagonist of the Arlesienne commits suicide and die because the titular Arlesienne quits him for another man just before their wedding). L'Arlesienne is a character constantly named but never directly present (to the point you may doubt that they actually exists). In the Prisoner, who is the Arlesienne, if not Number 1? Toplowtech fucked around with this message at 08:54 on Sep 6, 2016 |
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Sep 6, 2016 08:40
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Toplowtech posted:Well even if we can't talk we can still listen: That's really drat cool - I think just as fun taking that into context is the idea that Number 2 is thrust into the role of Fréderi by the Prisoner, and that Arlesienne is the made-up "partner" that Number 6 invents to torment him with. There were moments in this episode that felt a little weak/contrived but it was all made worth it by that amazing ending, with the Prisoner convincing Number 2 to betray himself and directly report his collapse to his superior. That he came up with this whole thing in a moment after observing Number 2 in action is both impressive and terrifying.
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Sep 6, 2016 10:07
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Jerusalem posted:When can we talk about Hammer into Anvil? Because I just watched it and It's a great episode. Now I'm going to say something controversial about it: I think it should be the third to last episode. Number 6 breaking a Number 2 makes a good "last straw" for the people running the village. But instead most episode orders go from Hammer Into Anvil into the episodes I think of as "the leftovers" because of their production history. I think it helps that this Number 2 was already a bit paranoid and brittle to begin with. Number 6 spotted his weaknesses and knew the buttons to push. A more calculating Number 2 would be able to step back and go, "Maybe he's just trying to play me. Let's see if I can use that." This Number 2 escalates the situation until he can't pull out. I think they even make a point at the end of the episode that if Number 2 had just behaved as a loyal citizen then absolutely nothing would have happened even if Number 6 was a plant. The whole situation top to bottom was built on Number 2 being a brittle, weak man. I loved that the background Village support staff get some highlights in this episode, too, with the controller and the butler getting lashed out at. I didn't think the shopkeeper was one of the keepers, but maybe he's just one of the people who has become so entrenched in the village that he feels it necessary to report on his customers. It occurred to me as I watched the episode that we haven't seen Rover in a while. He appeared as stock footage last episode, but he hasn't run down anyone lately. ("He"? Maybe Rover should be "she"...) Toplowtech posted:Well even if we can't talk we can still listen: I listened to the opening bars of six different Youtube videos before I found the right one. The musical motif was great in the episode. I feel like sometimes the music really on point in some episodes of The Prisoner and this is definitely one of those times. Random Stranger fucked around with this message at 14:05 on Sep 6, 2016 |
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Sep 6, 2016 14:02
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Sorry. Glad you started talking about it already. This is the episode where poo poo gets real and I could see someone wanting to push it closer to the end, a few lists even put it at 14th in. However, I think seeing this amazing episode will help us through the next two which are... not as good. Also I love that Number 6 uses old school spy methods (i.e. Morse Code and carrier pigeon) to take down Number 2. It is the antithesis of The Villages' crazy science and gadgets. This is the second episode in a row with roaming bands of bullies... and no rover  I actually think since Number 6 hasn't been trying to escape as much lately, Rover isn't as necessary to the plot. Patrick Cargill plays Number 2 in this episode and he also played Thorp in Many Happy Returns. It is never outright said if he is playing the same character. I wanted the episode this time thinking that they DID know one another. I think it adds to Number 6's immediate animosity towards 2. Also, if he already knew Number 6, then he would no expect 6 to behave in the manner in which he does in this episode. He is one of my favorite Number 2's because he is so much more militaristic than the others and really believes that he, and his number, makes him better. The quote by the record player: Music begins where words leave off is a quote by Heinrich Heine (the actual quote is Where words leave off, music begins" Who was a German poet, much like the Hammer into Anvil quote is attributed to German Johann Wolfgang von Goethe. I don't know if that means anything or not, but in The Village you never know. The Supervisor look so sad when he was fired. He worked harder than anyone else in The Village. I find it interesting that Number 2 said, "Our masters" plural. Hooray for more Kosho! "We built the drat set we better use it more than once!" You can't FIRE the butler! "I'll kill you!" "Will you?"  Dare I say Number 6 seems to be... enjoying himself!
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Sep 6, 2016 16:13
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York_M_Chan posted:Hooray for more Kosho! "We built the drat set we better use it more than once!" Number 14 must be the only other guy who uses the Kosho gym in the Village.
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Sep 6, 2016 16:53
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Random Stranger posted:Number 14 must be the only other guy who uses the Kosho gym in the Village. I think they used some footage of 14 in the previous Kosho episode. They did this a few times, there is a really awkward scene in Chimes where Leo is talking on the phone to 6 asking him to meet at the hospital. It is clearly a shot from Degree Absolute, with some particularly clunky ADR and awkward editing. The episode works well in this order. Just as with Change of Mind, The Prisoner is using the manipulating the system and subverting the system. The plans afterwards are people grasping at straws and trying to get something without provoking The Prisoner's wrath. Except for Forsake, which is an interesting kettle of fish altogether. In this ep, The Prisoner has more malice than in a lot of others. To be honest, this No. 2 deserves it, his is pretty sadistic and really incompetent. Also, have you ever seen a hammer break an anvil? I have not. It seems that it would be the other way around, the hammer crumbles trying to break the hammer, much like this episode. Also, OP, Living in Harmony is a fun rear end episode, don't tell the people it sucks.
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Sep 6, 2016 20:35
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wins.
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PassTheRemote posted:Also, have you ever seen a hammer break an anvil? I have not. It seems that it would be the other way around, the hammer crumbles trying to break the hammer, much like this episode. I mean, the point of hammering an anvil is not to break it, anyway. It's not about that in Goethe's poem, either: EIN ANDERES Geh! gehorche meinen Winken, Nutze deine jungen Tage, Lerne zeitig klüger sein: Auf des Glückes großer Wage Steht die Zunge selten ein; Du mußt steigen oder sinken, Du mußt herrschen und gewinnen, Oder dienen und verlieren, Leiden oder triumphieren, Amboß oder Hammer sein. ANOTHER Go! Obey my call, Seize your young days, Learn timely to be wise: On fortune's mighty balance, Seldom does the tongue weigh in; You must either rise, or sink, You must either rule and win, Or serve and lose, Suffer or triumph, Be the anvil or the hammer. I think it's alluding to the Roman proverb: Each man is the smith of his own fortune. If you want to forge your own fortune, you have to become the hammer striking the metal and the anvil. The anvil itself is just a tool, but it is necessary to dominate it in order to make progress.
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Sep 6, 2016 22:05
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This is interesting, and hopefully not too  -y; a collection of the original scripts (including early drafts), as well as screenplays and outlines for four unproduced episodes!I always find this kind of stuff cool, as you can see how the stories (and the show itself) evolved over time. And I never knew that the Prisoner was named "P" rather than "6" in the stage directions before.
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Sep 6, 2016 22:42
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Well, he's not a number, after all. And Hammer Into Anvil is my favourite episode that's not the opener or finale. I adore the casual, methodical way the Prisoner dismantles the Number 2 with old school spycraft. Number 2 can't admit the Prisoner may be faking it, because that would undermine his authority by admitting the Prisoner is mocking him. But the only other explanation leads... well, we see where.
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Sep 6, 2016 22:55
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The two initial encounters between the Prisoner and this Number 2 are really fascinating, because you can almost see the moment where the Prisoner goes,"I've got his number" (pun not intended) and then the way he just so smoothly improvises his plot from that point forward is just remarkable to watch. To be more specific, there are two moments - one where he goes,"I hate this man and will destroy him" and "I now know how to destroy this man I hate". That he ends up convincing the guy to turn himself in is just the icing on the cake and forgives a lot of the issues I might have otherwise had with the episode. It's just a superb ending.
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Sep 6, 2016 23:09
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Payndz posted:This is interesting, and hopefully not too Interesting. One of the scripts has an alternate version of the dialog from the opening sequence (don't read unless you've seen the series to the end) that changes the "You are Number 6" response to "You are our Number 6". I wonder if they realized what they could do with a slight rewording and changed intentionally or if the alternate reading of the line is just serendipity. Admittedly, the other version of the line is more clumsy so that's a good enough reason to change it on its own. Also, the Butler's name is apparently Angelo. I don't think that actually comes up in the series itself.
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Sep 7, 2016 02:19
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Angelo Muscat plays the Butler, and the Butler doesn't have a number, so I suppose he has to have a name.
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Sep 7, 2016 02:23
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