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reallivedinosaur
Jun 13, 2012

Ogdober subrise! XDDD
spare the rod, spoil the child!

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mostlygray
Nov 1, 2012

BURY ME AS I LIVED, A FREE MAN ON THE CLUTCH
When I was a kid, we had one teacher that would allow you to choose a paddling in front of the class (half-hearted, it didn't hurt, it was just humiliating), push-ups, or detention. It was done in good fun. One of my classmates actually made the paddle for him with holes drilled in it so it could be swung faster. I usually chose push-ups which had to be done in front of the class.

He would tailor the amount of push-ups to the student. For example, he would give me 10 or 20 but for the football players, he would do 100. For one of the guys that was well known for being very good at push-ups, he would have him do them one armed.

reallivedinosaur
Jun 13, 2012

Ogdober subrise! XDDD
rule of thumb guys, lets keep it sharia

there are serious and time tested rules about beating women and children lets not act uncivilized about it

Nic Cage dick cage
Jun 23, 2009

Lipstick Apathy
We had the frogman suit and cat o' nine tails nearly every week in our school. One gym teacher called his tawse 'the sergeant major' and he was an evil bastard. Another sadist made you roll your sleeves up so it would also hit you up your forearm. But it was a long time ago and they're all dead now gently caress them lmfao.

Bulgogi Hoagie
Jun 1, 2012

We

JiveHonky posted:

It sounds really cool to write on an internet forum but "powering up and going super saiyan to bring the flying fists of berszerker fury to the faces of your tormentors once you were pushed too far" wasn't a realistic option for me when I was bullied and beat up in high school. There were gangs and drug dealers and poo poo. I remember seeing some big muscle freak senior jumping and stomping on a kids head trying, I assume, to get the candy out the pinata. People would get hosed up like that fairly regularly. I was a skinny dork with sally jesse raphael glasses, not a tough guy. Its good that some of you cats could avenge yourselfs but like I said, that wasn't my circumstance.

In b4 getting called a beta bitch.
im sorry you missed out on the best part of school

CharlestonJew
Jul 7, 2011

Illegal Hen

mostlygray posted:

When I was a kid, we had one teacher that would allow you to choose a paddling in front of the class (half-hearted, it didn't hurt, it was just humiliating), push-ups, or detention. It was done in good fun. One of my classmates actually made the paddle for him with holes drilled in it so it could be swung faster. I usually chose push-ups which had to be done in front of the class.

He would tailor the amount of push-ups to the student. For example, he would give me 10 or 20 but for the football players, he would do 100. For one of the guys that was well known for being very good at push-ups, he would have him do them one armed.

Making your victims even stronger? Bad move imo

Roylicious
Feb 21, 2012

Braver than the cops
ain't afraid of no chaps
If they steppin up on me
I just start bustin some caps

Kiryen posted:

What do you think happens when you get arrested?

Lotta 5-10 year olds getting arrested during their developmental years?

Huh.

spacetoaster posted:

Isn't that why we have cops, army people, guards, etc?

Force, or the threat of force, is the only method that works.

We're talking about school children. Maybe if we didn't teach them that beating people who do not do what you want is acceptable we wouldn't have so much crime and selfish assholery going on when they grow up?

I guess it is easier to just hit them into submission instead of teaching them why they shouldn't be doing what they are doing though.

Roylicious fucked around with this message at 17:17 on Jun 21, 2016

Pvt.Scott
Feb 16, 2007

What God wants, God gets, God help us all

JiveHonky posted:

It sounds really cool to write on an internet forum but "powering up and going super saiyan to bring the flying fists of berszerker fury to the faces of your tormentors once you were pushed too far" wasn't a realistic option for me when I was bullied and beat up in high school. There were gangs and drug dealers and poo poo. I remember seeing some big muscle freak senior jumping and stomping on a kids head trying, I assume, to get the candy out the pinata. People would get hosed up like that fairly regularly. I was a skinny dork with sally jesse raphael glasses, not a tough guy. Its good that some of you cats could avenge yourselfs but like I said, that wasn't my circumstance.

In b4 getting called a beta bitch.

Nah, man, I regret that poo poo. The only reason I could do what I did was because I was fat but also big and strong. There weren't really gangs or drug dealers because the schools I was at were on military bases or in small loving towns outside of them. I probably also got picked on and also not punished because I was an officer's kid. I had a lot of advantages there as far as fighting bullies was concerned.

I hate that I hurt people. :smith:

fits my needs
Jan 1, 2011

Grimey Drawer
The south and Midwest are loving shitholes lmao

bongwizzard
May 19, 2005

Then one day I meet a man,
He came to me and said,
"Hard work good and hard work fine,
but first take care of head"
Grimey Drawer
I was never spanked at school or home and now as an adult I am an arrogant, pushy jerk with a huge ego so maybe we should not be so hasty to write off paddling.

Pvt.Scott
Feb 16, 2007

What God wants, God gets, God help us all
I'm ok with corporal punishment as long as kids get rum to cope. Let's be honest here, they already get sodomy and the lash often enough.

Crazyeyes
Nov 5, 2009

If I were human, I believe my response would be: 'go to hell'.
Paddling wasn't as hosed up as caning kids. That poo poo will shred the supple rear end flesh of a child.

spacetoaster
Feb 10, 2014

Roylicious posted:


We're talking about school children. Maybe if we didn't teach them that beating people who do not do what you want is acceptable we wouldn't have so much crime and selfish assholery going on when they grow up?

I guess it is easier to just hit them into submission instead of teaching them why they shouldn't be doing what they are doing though.

lol, you sound like my hippie/liberal/democrat/etc dad. He used to spout that crap in public and then was a raging maniac at home.

Roylicious
Feb 21, 2012

Braver than the cops
ain't afraid of no chaps
If they steppin up on me
I just start bustin some caps

spacetoaster posted:

lol, you sound like my hippie/liberal/democrat/etc dad. He used to spout that crap in public and then was a raging maniac at home.

Okay lol?

Beating kids is good because your dad said it is bad but he was a nutter; brilliant argument, barrister.

Fat Shat Sings
Jan 24, 2016

argondamn posted:

forgot about the time in math class where us boys were being too loud so coach took made us all go outside and paddled us one by one

What a strange coincidence! The person that paddled us was also the young boys coach.


HMMMMMMMM

spacetoaster
Feb 10, 2014

Roylicious posted:

Okay lol?

Beating kids is good because your dad said it is bad but he was a nutter; brilliant argument, barrister.

Thanks.

And when did I say beating kids was good? Seriously, you're making poo poo up.

Cyber Punk 90210
Jan 7, 2004

The War Has Changed
I went to a private Christian school in NY when I was in Middle School and my parents had to sign a waiver to permit corporal punishment. I got paddled once for wearing corduroys instead of chinos to school.

med school head
Apr 17, 2012

spacetoaster posted:

Thanks.

And when did I say beating kids was good? Seriously, you're making poo poo up.

sometimes you get the gently caress and sometimes the gently caress you

BIG-DICK-BUTT-FUCK
Jan 26, 2016

by Fluffdaddy

Crazyeyes posted:

Paddling wasn't as hosed up as caning kids. That poo poo will shred the supple rear end flesh of a child.

I don't think children ever got caned in schools

Roylicious
Feb 21, 2012

Braver than the cops
ain't afraid of no chaps
If they steppin up on me
I just start bustin some caps

spacetoaster posted:

Thanks.

And when did I say beating kids was good? Seriously, you're making poo poo up.

So you quoted me and said 'you sound just like my nutso dad' but you weren't trying to say you disagree? Because what I'm saying is 'corporal punishment is ineffective at best and at worst causes bad things.'

spacetoaster
Feb 10, 2014

Roylicious posted:

So you quoted me and said 'you sound just like my nutso dad' but you weren't trying to say you disagree? Because what I'm saying is 'corporal punishment is ineffective at best and at worst causes bad things.'

You got it.

But I don't think you're THAT against using force against stuff. Now children, yeah ok. But you, on this very forums, were bragging about writing bot programs to spam communications on websites you don't like.

*edit* You should thank whoever got you that zimmerman av. It makes your posts very noticeable. And the anime you had before was dumb.

suck my woke dick
Oct 10, 2012

:siren:I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!:siren:

Put this cum-loving slave on ignore immediately!

BIG-DICK-BUTT-gently caress posted:

I don't think children ever got caned in schools

they did in Germany

Roylicious
Feb 21, 2012

Braver than the cops
ain't afraid of no chaps
If they steppin up on me
I just start bustin some caps

spacetoaster posted:

But I don't think you're THAT against using force against stuff. Now children, yeah ok. But you, on this very forums, were bragging about writing bot programs to spam communications on websites you don't like.

*edit* You should thank whoever got you that zimmerman av. It makes your posts very noticeable. And the anime you had before was dumb.

Well this thread is about corporal punishment in schools so yeah we're talking about kids. Obv force is fine sometimes I'm not a bleeding heart liberal just because I don't agree with the resident right wing nutsos.

I'm just talking about in the context of raising kids or training animals, negative reinforcement has the opposite of the intended effect 99% of the time even if it is light negative reinforcement. That's not that controversial really.

And that anime I had was a drawing someone did for me I liked it :(

a hole-y ghost
May 10, 2010

Sending too many internet messages is the equivalent to beating up small kids.

a hole-y ghost
May 10, 2010

Sending a really bad internet message, however, is like beating up a really large kid, which is worse because bigger people have more body volume to hurt.

BIG-DICK-BUTT-FUCK
Jan 26, 2016

by Fluffdaddy

blowfish posted:

they did in Germany

If you're talking about this kind of caning, then no they did not:

:nws: http://davidhousefoundation.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/fay_caningex_01.jpg

If you're talking about garden-variety paddling but with a cane then sure that's probably still going on today

My Q-Face
Jul 8, 2002

A dumb racist who need to kill themselves

Do It Once Right posted:

Because apparently aussies and kiwis feel like the US south has its poo poo together when it comes to families and education for some reason or other.

"For some reason" is there are plenty of fundies in Australia. In fact, we make it a point to import them from the other former colonies, like Australia and South Africa to the US.

Creationist Ken Ham, the guy who built that Museum with Jesus riding a Dinosaur, for example.

spacetoaster
Feb 10, 2014

Roylicious posted:

Well this thread is about corporal punishment in schools so yeah we're talking about kids. Obv force is fine sometimes I'm not a bleeding heart liberal just because I don't agree with the resident right wing nutsos.

I'm just talking about in the context of raising kids or training animals, negative reinforcement has the opposite of the intended effect 99% of the time even if it is light negative reinforcement. That's not that controversial really.

And that anime I had was a drawing someone did for me I liked it :(

You did that?

If you're ever curious about people's av history just type the name here: https://esarahpalinonline.com/soap/?username=spacetoaster

As to your claim that negative reinforcement causes the opposite effect 99% of the time? Source?

Roylicious
Feb 21, 2012

Braver than the cops
ain't afraid of no chaps
If they steppin up on me
I just start bustin some caps
Someone else drew it for me based on a photo of mine.


spacetoaster posted:

As to your claim that negative reinforcement causes the opposite effect 99% of the time? Source?

http://www.jstor.org/stable/1127099?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents posted:


Major findings were: (a) social acceptance (measured in terms of positive choices) was significantly correlated with frequency of giving positive reinforcement but not with frequency of giving negative reinforcement; (b) rejection (negative choices) was significantly correlated with giving negative reinforcement but not with giving positive reinforcement;

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S000578940580111X posted:

A matching law reinforcement model of individual differences in social aggression was developed and tested. Ten hours of interaction were observed in each of ten aggressive and ten nonaggressive sons with their mothers. Consistent with the matching law, the relative probability of maternal termination of conflict (negative reinforcement) contingent on sons' tactics in dyadic conflict during an earlier time period was significantly correlated with the relative probability of the sons' choice of those tactics during a later time period. Comparable matching relationships were found between maternal choice of conflict tactics and sons' negative reinforcement of their mothers' tactics. Significant between-group differences were found in the relative probability with which mothers and sons negatively reinforced each other's aggressive conflict tactics.

http://www.apa.org/monitor/2012/04/spanking.aspx posted:

“It’s a very controversial area even though the research is extremely telling and very clear and consistent about the negative effects on children,” says Sandra Graham-Bermann, PhD, a psychology professor and principal investigator for the Child Violence and Trauma Laboratory at the University of Michigan. “People get frustrated and hit their kids. Maybe they don’t see there are other options.”

But spanking doesn’t work, says Alan Kazdin, PhD, a Yale University psychology professor and director of the Yale Parenting Center and Child Conduct Clinic. “You cannot punish out these behaviors that you do not want,” says Kazdin, who served as APA president in 2008. “There is no need for corporal punishment based on the research. We are not giving up an effective technique. We are saying this is a horrible thing that does not work.”

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/moral-landscapes/201309/research-spanking-it-s-bad-all-kids posted:

Nevertheless, some studies have been done. In one set of analyses with young children in the laboratory, time outs worked just as well as spanking for (immediate) subsequent compliance on 30 tasks assigned by the mother. Long-term compliance is decreased after spanking (Gershoff, 2002; Gershoff & Grogan-Kaylor, 2013).

In terms of whether parental aggression (spanking) decreases aggression in the child, the answer is no. In fact, spanking tends to increase child aggression. “Spanking predicted increases in children’s aggression over and above initial levels [of aggressive behavior]” and “in none of these longitudinal studies did spanking predict reductions in children’s aggression over time” (p. 134). Instead, spanking predicted increases in children’s aggression.

Longitudinal studies show that spanking increases aggression in any child, no matter what their background or what the common practices of their community are (see Berlin et al., 2009; Gershoff et al., 2012).

Idk there's really just tons of data showing that negative reinforcement doesn't teach the kid anything other than don't get caught while causing all kinds of other psychological harm.

Animal training is the same way 95% of the time. Negative reinforcement just doesn't work.

Roylicious fucked around with this message at 22:18 on Jun 21, 2016

MiracleWhale
Jun 30, 2015


Roylicious posted:

Animal training is the same way 95% of the time. Negative reinforcement just doesn't work.

anyone who has ever tried to train an animal to do anything knows this

spacetoaster
Feb 10, 2014

Roylicious posted:


Idk there's really just tons of data showing that negative reinforcement doesn't teach the kid anything other than don't get caught while causing all kinds of other psychological harm.


So the spartans had it all wrong. Makes you think.

According to my kids my methods are the worst/most damaging. I send them to the hellscape known as "outside". And I take away their tablets which seem to be some kind of life support mechanism.

(and if I really want to be horrible I'll turn off the wifi)

Roylicious
Feb 21, 2012

Braver than the cops
ain't afraid of no chaps
If they steppin up on me
I just start bustin some caps

spacetoaster posted:

So the spartans had it all wrong. Makes you think.

According to my kids my methods are the worst/most damaging. I send them to the hellscape known as "outside". And I take away their tablets which seem to be some kind of life support mechanism.

(and if I really want to be horrible I'll turn off the wifi)

See that's fine though I'm not trying to be like 'negative reinforcement is anything that makes them mad/sad/whatever.' The stuff I linked mentioned that time outs are fine for example.

It's just when people have to use pain/fear/violence as a tool to enforce their will because they can't figure out how to teach their kids what to do otherwise that's when it gets bad. Like 'do X or else, doesn't matter WHY just do it or I'll hit you.'

Pvt.Scott
Feb 16, 2007

What God wants, God gets, God help us all

spacetoaster posted:

So the spartans had it all wrong. Makes you think.

According to my kids my methods are the worst/most damaging. I send them to the hellscape known as "outside". And I take away their tablets which seem to be some kind of life support mechanism.

(and if I really want to be horrible I'll turn off the wifi)

From the articles quoted above, there was the bit that said time-outs were just as effective short-term as rear end-whipping, without the long-term negatives. I assume that the removal of luxuries and liberties falls in the same category as time-out. So, I guess long-term it doesn't do much to change behavior as the compliance enforced by punishment erodes, but it can get you some breathing room so you don't go nuts as a parent. I survived getting booted off of the Nintendo, but I guess I also survived spankings too. I know which one I dreaded more: no Nintendo or PC. Getting praised for good work, doing good deeds without being prompted and assigned chores with even just a hug, a kiss or an "I love you," afterwards worked wonders for my behavior.

My parents stopped using corporal punishment over time (never a lot to begin with though) as my father's military career took my parents away from their emotionally and physically abusive families and the weird culty Christian sect my mom grew up with. They are mega-chill these days.

Kitsunegari
Aug 5, 2013
Spank my rear end, teach

vyst
Aug 25, 2009



I bet if more kids were spanked by their parents the less ADHD bullshit medication they'd end up being on.

DrManiac
Feb 29, 2012

From how my mom described it corporal punishment just seemed like a way for some of the pervert teachers to get their rocks off

Bethamphetamine
Oct 29, 2012

My Q-Face posted:

"For some reason" is there are plenty of fundies in Australia. In fact, we make it a point to import them from the other former colonies, like Australia and South Africa to the US.

Creationist Ken Ham, the guy who built that Museum with Jesus riding a Dinosaur, for example.

Dr. Ben Carson enjoys traveling to NZ and Australia to peddle his snake oil, too. The reason I stumbled on the "World's Strictest Parents" videos is because I was looking for links between the AFA (US) and New Zealand's Family First organization. That group has been waging a decade long battle against NZ's anti-smacking legislation. Which sounds adorable in a kiwi accent, but actually they want to remove barriers to parents and other adults beating the hell out of kids.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OTRdhGhj0q8

JiveHonky
May 12, 2001

by zen death robot
Grimey Drawer

vyst posted:

I bet if more kids were spanked by their parents the less ADHD bullshit medication they'd end up being on.

you dont even have a belly button why should we listen to you?

Kiryen
Feb 25, 2015

Roylicious posted:

Lotta 5-10 year olds getting arrested during their developmental years?

Huh.

No. They get arrested later - which is done by force, if necessary.

The fact is, the properly constituted authority CAN use force to make people comply. There may be other problems with spanking, but kids learning that is not one of them.

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spacetoaster
Feb 10, 2014

Pvt.Scott posted:

From the articles quoted above, there was the bit that said time-outs were just as effective short-term as rear end-whipping, without the long-term negatives. I assume that the removal of luxuries and liberties falls in the same category as time-out. So, I guess long-term it doesn't do much to change behavior as the compliance enforced by punishment erodes, but it can get you some breathing room so you don't go nuts as a parent. I survived getting booted off of the Nintendo, but I guess I also survived spankings too. I know which one I dreaded more: no Nintendo or PC. Getting praised for good work, doing good deeds without being prompted and assigned chores with even just a hug, a kiss or an "I love you," afterwards worked wonders for my behavior.

My parents stopped using corporal punishment over time (never a lot to begin with though) as my father's military career took my parents away from their emotionally and physically abusive families and the weird culty Christian sect my mom grew up with. They are mega-chill these days.

I took my son's tablet PC away for an entire month once. It sat on the bar the entire time. I forget exactly what he did, but it was bad (lied about something important I think). I'm pretty sure that's the worst punishment I ever did to him (he's 7).

Now his older sister is another story. I'll withhold a shopping trip or movie night and you'd think I stabbed her in the chest with a steak knife.

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