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Rascyc
Jan 23, 2008

Dissatisfied Puppy

Turning off friendly fire should be a pretty big sign on the direction combat is going in this game. I wouldn't sweat minmaxing the skill system because it seems pretty clear they are going to design encounters on the easier side to accommodate as many play styles as possible, especially the people who play more jack of all trades. Without 'hard' encounters you fall into that realm of "do whatever is fun" which usually negates any problems with the skill systems.

I mean I don't get the hate for Ltd's posts. This is all pretty general stuff. There's a big wall of text up above by the OP writer about how Oblivion went down and all of the skill system hijinks wouldn't have happened if people didn't run into level scaled mobs that took minutes to kill during their explore fests, which is what TES games are to the average player.

So basically I am setting my expectation for Tyranny to be more of an interactive story that PoE wasn't instead of the dungeon crawling/murder machine that PoE was.

[e] and yes I saw the dev diary where they straight up ported the PoE combat system including its Potd difficulty.

Rascyc fucked around with this message at Jul 11, 2016 around 16:35

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Accordion Man
Nov 7, 2012



Basic Chunnel posted:

Their "three angles of approach" video touched on reputation. I guess it was cool enough but I was a little leery that they showed variant styles in play and not variant consequences of play, which is what makes AP the rough gem it is. It's still dazzling that your ability to kill Marburg is largely decided by what you chose as Thorton's motivation at the beginning of the game.
Marburg is one of video games' best villains just because how well he ties into AP being a game.

Like the fact that you have to be playing a cocky douchebag the whole time up until you meet him otherwise he'll know you're just trying to screw with him.

2house2fly
Nov 14, 2012

You did a super job wrapping things up! And I'm not just saying that because I have to!

I prefer to keep him sweet anyway because he's got a bunch of fun scenes at the end of the game.

Fair Bear Maiden
Jun 17, 2013


Basic Chunnel posted:

Their "three angles of approach" video touched on reputation. I guess it was cool enough but I was a little leery that they showed variant styles in play and not variant consequences of play, which is what makes AP the rough gem it is. It's still dazzling that your ability to kill Marburg is largely decided by what you chose as Thorton's motivation at the beginning of the game.

It's not like Alpha Protocol's pre-release stuff showed that well either. SEGA made a valiant effort, to be fair, IIRC they even asked reviewers to play the game more than once to get the "intended" experience, but Alpha Protocol looked and felt like a rougher, jankier version of Mass Effect and was always fighting an uphill battle in that respect.

bongwizzard
May 19, 2005

Then one day I meet a man,
He came to me and said,
"Hard work good and hard work fine,
but first take care of head"

Grimey Drawer

I loved AP but never finished it, there was some bit at the end with some dude in a helicopter chasing me and I could never figure out how to get past him.

AP is also maybe the only game where the strength of the story kept me playing despite disliking the gameplay. Third person games usually never do it for me in general, but something about AP just made me crazy.

Accordion Man
Nov 7, 2012



Fair Bear Maiden posted:

It's not like Alpha Protocol's pre-release stuff showed that well either. SEGA made a valiant effort, to be fair, IIRC they even asked reviewers to play the game more than once to get the "intended" experience, but Alpha Protocol looked and felt like a rougher, jankier version of Mass Effect and was always fighting an uphill battle in that respect.
Yeah, you really have to replay AP at least once to really appreciate it. Like when I first beat it I thought it was good but when I eventually replayed it it became one of my favorite games of all time.

Darkhold
Feb 19, 2011

No Heart
No Soul
No Service

bongwizzard posted:

I loved AP but never finished it, there was some bit at the end with some dude in a helicopter chasing me and I could never figure out how to get past him.
You run from it for a bit then you get into an area packed with rocket ammo and you can just blow it up. Really was annoying to be forced into that when you were playing a pure stealth run.

The best part was you could encounter a bug (that I think was patched out) if you reload a save the helicopter would despawn and the door to proceed would never open.

Samuel Clemens
Oct 4, 2013

I think we should call the Avengers.



SolidSnakesBandana posted:

Have there been other examples of games having the design goal of being beatable by a level 1 character?

I don't know about actual intent, but the fact that boss fights in Final Fantasy V and VI don't give any experience makes me assume that low level challenges were at least somewhat known by the developers of these games. And, of course, there's Undertale, which has a unique ending if you go through the entire game without collecting any experience.

I would argue that beating Dark Souls at level 1 is more akin to playing through Devil May Cry without ever upgrading, though. Or completing System Shock 2 without spending any Cyber Modules. What separates these games from traditional RPGs is the lack of abstraction in the gameplay. Hitting and evading attacks is not simply the result of a dice roll, but dependent on the player's own reflexes. Combat is thus directly tied to your skill, and all levelling does is increase the room for error. As you yourself point out, it's possible to beat DS without ever getting hit precisely because the game eschews any random elements. That's not something which could work in, say, Fallout 2 because there you have no control over your character's dodging capabilities.

bongwizzard
May 19, 2005

Then one day I meet a man,
He came to me and said,
"Hard work good and hard work fine,
but first take care of head"

Grimey Drawer

Darkhold posted:

You run from it for a bit then you get into an area packed with rocket ammo and you can just blow it up. Really was annoying to be forced into that when you were playing a pure stealth run.

The best part was you could encounter a bug (that I think was patched out) if you reload a save the helicopter would despawn and the door to proceed would never open.

poo poo, maybe that was it, I was playing it on an xbox back then, so idk how patching worked.

SNAKES N CAKES
Sep 6, 2005

DAVID GAIDER
Lead Writer


There's an amazing new update on the main site:

quote:

Dev Diary #6 – Barik
13 July, 2016 Author by Brian Heins.

Hello, everyone! In our last dev update, I talked a bit about combat mechanics for Tyranny. For today’s update, I wanted to introduce you to one of the Companions who can join you on your adventures in the world of Terratus – Barik of the Stone Shields.



Barik is the quintessential Disfavored soldier. He embodies all of the rigid and uncompromising values that Graven Ashe’s iron legion holds dear. He’s polite, respectful of authority, and doggedly intolerant of anyone born outside of the Overlord’s long shadow.

He began his career with the Disfavored in the phalanx – his size and strength made him a perfect addition to the shield wall. His strong nerve and unwavering obedience quickly drew the eye of his superiors. Barik received several battlefield promotions before drawing the eye of Archon Graven Ashe, leader of the Disfavored. Once the Great General knew his name, Barik quickly ascended to the ranks of the Iron Guard – Ashe’s select group of advisors and lieutenants.

It was one desperate mission that led to Barik’s undoing. During the war against the Tiers, Barik did not retreat with the rest of the Disfavored when word came that the Overlord Kyros was about to proclaim an Edict upon the realm of Stalwart. Instead, he joined a select group that embarked on a daring rescue mission to the heart of Sentinel Stand Keep. When the Edict struck and ruined any chance of success, Barik faced a harsher punishment than disgrace. Unlike the rest of his squad, he survived to witness Kyros’ judgment on Stalwart.

As Kyros’ Edict of Storms swept across the land, Barik was caught in the magical winds – winds that bore the weapons and armor of Barik’s phalanx and the enemies they fought. When the initial onslaught of the Edict subsided, Barik was found still alive, but trapped in a prison of twisted blades. To this day, Barik wears his armor of fused iron and bronze – durable protection, yet an unyielding mark of his failure. No one has been able to free him from the armor he was sealed into by Kyros’ Edict.

Combat Role

We designed Barik to serve as a much-needed shield to protect the party from danger. Barik stands in the front line, engaging enemies, taunting them into attacking him, and being a damage sink to keep the rest of the party alive.

When designing his talent trees, we looked at a couple of different themes that players could use to specialize him. His ‘Sentinel’ tree focuses on allowing him to maintain control on the battlefield while increasing the amount of damage he can absorb. His ‘Punisher’ tree transforms him into a warrior of retribution, excelling at slaying foes that dare to stand against him.

A few of his notable abilities:

Striking Iron: A strong slashing attack that deals increased damage if the target is actively engaging Barik in combat.

Stance: Phalanx: Barik ‘hunkers down’ into a defensive stance, hiding his body behind his shield. While in this stance, Barik gains a bonus to Armor making him significantly more capable of weathering damage from enemy attacks.

Engagement Attack: A passive ability that grants Barik a free attack on any enemy who engages him.

Defender’s Charge: Barik leaps to an ally’s side, taunting nearby enemies into attacking him.

Blade’s Embrace: As Barik adventures with the Fatebinder, he gains control over the bronze and iron prison that confines him. With this ability, Barik is able to command the weapons in his armor to strike out at nearby targets, dealing increased damage to anyone who is activately engaging him.

We wanted players to see Barik as a protector in battle, but also as a tactical asset. Barik’s Defender’s Charge and Striking Iron abilities are powerful, but they excel the most when players find the right moment to take action. Striking Iron incentivizes standing toe-to-toe with enemy melee units, but isn’t as effective when targeting an enemy archer or spellcaster. Defender’s Charge can move Barik to any ally on the battlefield, effectively saving them, but his relocation may leave his previous position unprotected.

By making strong choices and careful tactical decisions, players can use Barik as a powerful commanding presence, emphasizing his strengths to shift the tide of battle.

I hope you enjoyed this first look at one of Tyranny’s companion characters. Stay tuned for our next update, where we reveal our next companion: Verse!

multijoe
Oct 15, 2007



Fun Shoe


I think it's pretty cool fanart for Tyranny is coming out so quickly actually, moreso that Obsidian is giving it exposure alongside official development updates. I'm sure whatever kid drew that is really chuffed to see their work reblogged alongside professional art

multijoe fucked around with this message at Jul 13, 2016 around 20:13

Pavlov
Oct 21, 2012


drat he can't take the armor off at all? He must reek after all that time without a proper bath.

mitochondritom
Oct 3, 2010


Dude sounds a bit like Vhailor 2.0

Samuel Clemens
Oct 4, 2013

I think we should call the Avengers.



Sort of, although "polite" isn't a word I would use to describe Vhailor.

Accordion Man
Nov 7, 2012



Also the only authority he had any respect for was his own hosed up view of justice.

Octo1
May 7, 2009


how does he poop?

GreatGreen
Jul 3, 2007

THIS IS HOW YOU REMIND ME OF WHAT I REALLY AM

Octo1 posted:

how does he poop?

Just like anybody else! Not everybody else is trapped in an airtight suit of armor though. Their poop doesn't eventually fill up the suit and spill out of the mouth hole at the top.

grate deceiver
Jul 10, 2009


He can't eat with that thing on anyway, I don't think pooping is the problem here.

Samuel Clemens
Oct 4, 2013

I think we should call the Avengers.



Have you noticed how RPG characters never need to go to the bathroom? What's the deal with that?

Magical Zero
Aug 21, 2008

The colour out of space.

I still haven't actually finished PoE because for whatever reason I find the base game to be insanely boring after a while. It's pretty much the only Obsidian game I haven't played to completion. The expansions were great though, so hopefully that bodes well for Tyranny. The game being shorter and more focused on reactivity sounds like a good idea.

Fair Bear Maiden
Jun 17, 2013


Livestream recording from yesterday. Same stuff as E3 but with some commentary. Also sounds like they're going to be doing streams like this once a month, and they already promised they'll show the character creation/prologue part (which apparently will be pretty involved) and a more involved look at the combat at the higher difficulties.

X_Toad
Apr 2, 2011


We now know of five possible companions : old man Lantry (healing magic and throwing daggers), human turtle Barik (damage sponge and crowd control, affiliated with the Disfavored), lady Verse (twin daggers and bow, possibly affiliated with the Scarlet Chorus), ape-wolf whose name we don't know (affiliated with the Beastmen) and white-haired, blue-clad Eb (most likely offensive magic, affiliated with the Rebels).

Megazver posted:

Oh hey, the guy who wrote the Imperial Agent storyline for the Old Republic (it's the best one) is writing for Tyranny. That's cool.
I was going to write a long text about how that doesn't seem likely and then ask for your sources, but yeah, no, you're right, and the source was so obvious I almost missed it, the bibliography section of his website.

Fair Bear Maiden
Jun 17, 2013


According to that website, the guy was more of a consultant and editor than a writer on the project. Which honestly, doesn't seem like a bad thing, Obsidian's latest projects could have used an extra pair of eyes for editing and critiquing that didn't have a stake in the process.

SolidSnakesBandana
Jul 1, 2007

Infinite ammo


The imperial storyline wasn't good because if the actual writing necessarily, but because its one of the only ones that have different outcomes. There's like four different endings, including one where you were a double agent for the Republic the entire time.

Vargs
Mar 27, 2010



Magical Zero posted:

I still haven't actually finished PoE because for whatever reason I find the base game to be insanely boring after a while. It's pretty much the only Obsidian game I haven't played to completion. The expansions were great though, so hopefully that bodes well for Tyranny. The game being shorter and more focused on reactivity sounds like a good idea.

The reason you found PoE to be insanely boring is because it was insanely boring. I think that even the vanilla NWN2 campaign is more interesting than PoE.

Savy Saracen salad
Oct 15, 2013


Vargs posted:

The reason you found PoE to be insanely boring is because it was insanely boring. I think that even the vanilla NWN2 campaign is more interesting than PoE.

I agree, it is the only game from Obsidian I could not stomach to finish. The philosophical diatribes and the constant gods/souls/dreams chit chat coupled with the extremely weird terminologies shoved down your throat during the first minute of the game really pulled me off.

mitochondritom
Oct 3, 2010


Savy Saracen salad posted:

I agree, it is the only game from Obsidian I could not stomach to finish. The philosophical diatribes and the constant gods/souls/dreams chit chat coupled with the extremely weird terminologies shoved down your throat during the first minute of the game really pulled me off.

I think the location they set Pillars in plays a big part in its "blandness". Throughout the game you are told about all these unique places, like Rautai the home of polynesian shark men, but ultimately you are in generic medieval village land from the start. It feels extremely safe. I like the setting and I like the world building, all the philosophy stuff etc, but I can't help feel everywhere else in the world was cooler. Another aspect that confused me is that arguably the most interesting thing in the game is the story about Waidwen and Eothas, Durance and the Godhammer. Why didn't they make that the game and have the story set in that moment? I guess it would have been expensive.

Furism
Feb 21, 2006

Live long and headbang


The Dyrwood and The White March are Not-Sword Coast and Not-Icewind Dale because of the Infinity Engine homage thing. Had they not done this RPG Codex types would still be in a coma from the shock. I'm sure in the future we'll see more exotic places.

SolidSnakesBandana
Jul 1, 2007

Infinite ammo


Are you saying the Infinity Engine style is ugly? Or that it's incapable of creating exotic locales?

mitochondritom
Oct 3, 2010


Furism posted:

The Dyrwood and The White March are Not-Sword Coast and Not-Icewind Dale because of the Infinity Engine homage thing. Had they not done this RPG Codex types would still be in a coma from the shock. I'm sure in the future we'll see more exotic places.

Totally understand that decision and I think that the White March parts are much more fantastical than the original content, exactly like Icewind Dale in regards to Baldurs Gate.

SolidSnakesBandana posted:

Are you saying the Infinity Engine style is ugly? Or that it's incapable of creating exotic locales?

Neither, but the setting, that is the Forgotten Realms is full of interesting stuff that wasn't featured in the games for example the country of Thay. The Dungeons and Dragons brand also has other unique settings like Dark Sun which could translate well to infinity engine gameplay. I suppose my "its too safe" comment could equally be levelled at Baldurs Gate 1, but at the time it was released I was about 10 years old and thought it was the best thing ever.

CharlieFoxtrot
Mar 26, 2007




Noted safe Infinity Engine setting of Planescape

Leinadi
Sep 14, 2009


People on the Codex tend to criticize games for not going more crazy with their settings so I have no idea where people get the idea that codexers would want more vanilla fantasy settings.

dangerdoom volvo
Nov 5, 2009


why did the nameless one suddenly stop forgetting everything when he died?

Basic Chunnel
Sep 21, 2010

Jesus! Jesus Christ! Say his name! Jesus! Jesus! Come down now!



SolidSnakesBandana posted:

Are you saying the Infinity Engine style is ugly? Or that it's incapable of creating exotic locales?
People wanted BG1, they got BG1.

DropsySufferer
Nov 9, 2008

Impractical practicality


dangerdoom volvo posted:

why did the nameless one suddenly stop forgetting everything when he died?

I think he only forgets everything when shadows do the killing. Either that or when he dies in fortress of regrets. Its been like 10 years since I played this.

Lt. Danger
Dec 22, 2006

jolly good chaps we sure showed the hun

TNO did a ritual to stop the memory loss. Paranoid killed the guy who did it when he found out it wouldn't kick in until after a few more deaths.

Samuel Clemens
Oct 4, 2013

I think we should call the Avengers.



CharlieFoxtrot posted:

Noted safe Infinity Engine setting of Planescape

Planescape: Torment is interesting because despite its premise theoretically allowing for very creative settings, the environments you end up visiting mostly conform to standard fantasy tropes. There's even a sewer level.

Fuligin
Oct 27, 2010

ahh..what!? what?!
huh?!

I liked the Dyrwood as a fantasy colonial pseudo-thirteen colonies, I never really felt like it was an Oblivion-esque bland fantasy realm. White March's story, locations, and encounter design were all superior though, I'd agree.

e: also all the middle english and welsh terms were great, gently caress the haters.

Furism
Feb 21, 2006

Live long and headbang


Leinadi posted:

People on the Codex tend to criticize games for not going more crazy with their settings so I have no idea where people get the idea that codexers would want more vanilla fantasy settings.

Seriously? Have you seen their review(s) of the game?

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Airfoil
Sep 10, 2013

I'm a rocket man


Fuligin posted:

e: also all the middle english and welsh terms were great, gently caress the haters.



Leinadi posted:

People on the Codex tend to criticize games for not going more crazy with their settings so I have no idea where people get the idea that codexers would want more vanilla fantasy settings.

It's often hard to tell in between all the racist edgelord shitposting, but what the rational parts of the Codex complain about is writing. Setting is secondary.

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