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 Today the Senate voted in favor of the PROMESA bill, legislation setting up a control board to deal with Puerto Rico's debt emergency and requiring a fiscal plan to deal with their $70b debt crisis It's a really good idea, you might remember previous instances when emergency managers were appointed to deal with local debt situations, like in Flint, Michigan Anyway, here's what Juan Gonzalez from democracynow had to say earlier today: quote:This is the bill that both the Obama administration and Republicans in the House passed (ed note: who says bipartisanship is dead?), you know, got through the House, initially, a couple of weeks ago, which would establish a means for Puerto Rico to restructure its $72 billion in debt, but would also impose a financial control board—what I and other people call a colonial control board—over the commonwealth of Puerto Rico. The Republican Majority Leader Mitch McConnell moved this week to have a cloture vote, which will occur today, because McConnell wants to prevent any amendments on the Senate floor from those who might have problems with the current bill. So he wants to—he’s going to go for a 60-vote cloture vote and then proceed to have a vote on the full bill, because they’re trying to rush to get this bill through before the July 1 deadline, in a few days, when Puerto Rico is sure to default on a huge portion of its debt. It has to pay about $2 billion on July 1. This is also the same bill that lowers minimum wage from $7.25 to $4.25 for people under 25. Anyway it's clearly good, thE Hamilton guy signed off on it http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/05/congress-puerto-rico-bill-promise/483572/ posted:The immediate need to restructure and prevent defaults trumps most other concerns with the bill and with Puerto Rico’s status. That sentiment is echoed by award-winning playwright Lin-Manuel Miranda in a recent op-ed for The New York Times. “If a ship is sinking,” he wrote, “you don’t ask, ‘Well, what type of ship is it and what type of ship should it be?’ You rescue the people aboard.”
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Jun 30, 2016 03:38
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| # ? Apr 24, 2024 06:46 |
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spain gonna repo your non-tax paying asses ahahaha
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Jun 30, 2016 10:21
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=115-D-sms6M
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Jun 30, 2016 11:16
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lowering the minimum wage to a hilarious 4.25/hr will certainly stem the flight to the mainland
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Jun 30, 2016 14:59
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Will Puerto Rico finally vote for statehood if their economy gets hosed up enough? It's like half manufacturing for some insane reason when it should really be the east coasts hawaii
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Jun 30, 2016 16:59
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*writes a massive effort post about why this island loving sucks and we deserve everything we get* Nice Meltdown
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Jun 30, 2016 18:05
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I kinda want to live somewhere in america where I can own handguns, where liquor is cheap, where the cost of living is cheap and overall low crime also being white (really, really painfulyl white) is okay can peuto rico be the new balooganhq?
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Jun 30, 2016 18:15
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Baloogan posted:I kinda want to live somewhere in america where I can own handguns, where liquor is cheap, where the cost of living is cheap and overall low crime You can own guns in the island legally, its just probably the most expensive place to get them thanks to all the hoops you have to jump to get one. Crime is pretty rampant right now, specially in the metro and surrounding areas. Cost of living hahahahaha its way more expensive to live here than it is in the states. Groceries are more expensive since everything needs to be shipped here, electricity is massively expensive, like 25 cents a kwatt. And god help you if you dont have an AC when the summer gets really going and it rains for 10 minutes to get the humidity to 100%. People dont care if you are extremely white if you speak the language. Ive seen dudes over here that look like they came from germany but open their mouths and sound like a jibaro from 2 centuries ago. If you dont then you are branded a gringo. Basically you get treated the same but now have a nickname.
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Jun 30, 2016 18:31
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lol okay so no when i was in mexico a few years ago I overheard "gringo" in the grocery store, presumably directed at me and it warmed my heart because i had nnever before been called gringo
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Jun 30, 2016 18:33
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where is a cheap place to live?
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Jun 30, 2016 18:38
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quote:This is also the same bill that lowers minimum wage from $7.25 to $4.25 for people under 25. What the gently caress? What could possibly be the justification for that? That's not even austerity, it's just pissing in their face for no real purpose.
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Jun 30, 2016 18:39
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Seriously why would I live in PR when I can buy a house for about a shitload cheaper on a better Caribbean island like Martinique?
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Jun 30, 2016 18:42
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Cao Ni Ma posted:You can own guns in the island legally, its just probably the most expensive place to get them thanks to all the hoops you have to jump to get one. Crime is pretty rampant right now, specially in the metro and surrounding areas. Cost of living hahahahaha its way more expensive to live here than it is in the states. Groceries are more expensive since everything needs to be shipped here, electricity is massively expensive, like 25 cents a kwatt. And god help you if you dont have an AC when the summer gets really going and it rains for 10 minutes to get the humidity to 100%. I have always wanted to visit Puerto Rico as my Spanish professor was from there, we heard many stories. What is your opinion about the bill? I think it sucks, and the minimum wage garbage should be removed, but if it was the only way to stave off bankruptcy...
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Jun 30, 2016 18:44
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pathetic little tramp posted:Seriously why would I live in PR when I can buy a house for about a shitload cheaper on a better Caribbean island like Martinique? Because pr is ostensibly part of the first world?
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Jun 30, 2016 19:10
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Marzzle posted:Because pr is ostensibly part of the first world? martinique is part of france
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Jun 30, 2016 19:11
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If you want to live in Martinique because it's so cheap just go live in friggin Vietnam already
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Jun 30, 2016 19:12
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france aint first world no more
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Jun 30, 2016 19:13
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Constant Hamprince posted:martinique is part of france I stand by my comment 
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Jun 30, 2016 19:14
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I mean all or has to do is reach out and don the mantle of the 51st state them boom it will just become a solid block of 3 million dollar condos like Honolulu. People love no risk tropical American property
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Jun 30, 2016 19:15
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Mrit posted:I have always wanted to visit Puerto Rico as my Spanish professor was from there, we heard many stories. Fast Luck has issued a correction as of 19:21 on Jun 30, 2016 |
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Jun 30, 2016 19:16
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Mrit posted:I have always wanted to visit Puerto Rico as my Spanish professor was from there, we heard many stories. Its a bad bill, hastily done to try and salvage the island before it loving destroys itself. But what can you do? The governor has been complaining that it was going to happen but at the same time kept all information to himself without actually opening the islands financial books. Why? Who knows probably a bunch of no bid contracts to family and friends like every other governor. Menendez amendments were a none starter. Of course they werent going anywhere, like 95% of the politicians in here self identify as democrats. Why would the republicans willingly sign off their majority in the Junta by allowing our politicians to assign two additional seats to it? People in here are scared of the thing because gringos are gonna come in here and tell us what to do. I'll say I'd rather have Full Colony Now than staying with the status quo, just wish it wasnt under the current republicans. Fast Luck posted:imo there was never a chance Congress was never gonna let PR's creditors down. A lot of the debt is own by puerto ricans too. You know, because our governor forced the co-ops to buy debt. Cao Ni Ma has issued a correction as of 19:23 on Jun 30, 2016 |
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Jun 30, 2016 19:19
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Fast Luck posted:imo there was never a chance Congress was ever gonna let PR's creditors down. Continuously dumping money in a dumpster fire doesn't accomplish anything unfortunately,see also Greece. Vox Nihili posted:What the gently caress? What could possibly be the justification for that? That's not even austerity, it's just pissing in their face for no real purpose. The us median hourly wage is 18 per hour while the Puerto Rico is 9. It would be like using the same min wage for Norway as Poland.
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Jun 30, 2016 20:07
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That just means the minimum wage cut will be even more destructive to the people of Puerto Rico, who will actually see real wage movement downward rather than some relatively niche changes. And it doesn't even help with the debt situation outside of trickle-down fever dream scenarios.
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Jun 30, 2016 20:26
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No it doesn't. A min wage massively out of line with the productivity and economic output of the country causes more harm than good.
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Jun 30, 2016 20:39
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poo poo why not raise it to 15 by your logic. Prosperity will surely erupt!
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Jun 30, 2016 20:43
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tsa posted:The us median hourly wage is 18 per hour while the Puerto Rico is 9. It would be like using the same min wage for Norway as Poland. I get an entry level IT job in this island and I might even get paid minimum wage, same job in the states would get me 14-15/h. A teacher starting out here gets like 22k a year, almost assuredly that teacher is also bilingual. Take the same job in Texas and they get around 50k. An engineer expects to get 30k a year here in the first few years and probably caps out at like 60k. An engineer in the states expects to start out at that range. Same work, same currency, usually a higher cost of life do to utilities and groceries. The only things cheaper in here are education (because its publicly subsidized and not insane) and houses which are just not hyper inflated as they are in the states.
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Jun 30, 2016 21:03
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Cao Ni Ma posted:I get an entry level IT job in this island and I might even get paid minimum wage, same job in the states would get me 14-15/h. A teacher starting out here gets like 22k a year, almost assuredly that teacher is also bilingual. Take the same job in Texas and they get around 50k. An engineer expects to get 30k a year here in the first few years and probably caps out at like 60k. An engineer in the states expects to start out at that range. Why does anyone live there in this situation? 25c per kWh electricity, expensive groceries, and starvation wages? I'm assuming people contribute to social security as normal?
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Jun 30, 2016 21:44
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Cao Ni Ma posted:I get an entry level IT job in this island and I might even get paid minimum wage, same job in the states would get me 14-15/h. A teacher starting out here gets like 22k a year, almost assuredly that teacher is also bilingual. Take the same job in Texas and they get around 50k. An engineer expects to get 30k a year here in the first few years and probably caps out at like 60k. An engineer in the states expects to start out at that range. Interestingly enough it ain't the professional leaving, it's the uneducated (because in part what extremely high min wage laws <relative to economic productivity> cause massive unemployment.) The best way to do this is on the backend through welfare, as it's much less distorting. Of course pr doesn't have the money for that either. Regardless min wage laws aren't magic like some seem to think, and pr is a pretty good case study in why that is.
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Jun 30, 2016 21:49
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Twerk from Home posted:Why does anyone live there in this situation? 25c per kWh electricity, expensive groceries, and starvation wages? I'm assuming people contribute to social security as normal? http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/03/24/historic-population-losses-continue-across-puerto-rico/ https://www.newyorkfed.org/medialibrary/media/research/current_issues/ci20-4.pdf
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Jun 30, 2016 21:50
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Also 'the same work' is probably a stretch, Puerto Rico schools are pretty lovely compared to the US. The best school is equivalent to a crappy state school you never heard of and it gets much worse from there. Edit : just did a quick look, I don't think those income numbers are correct, I'm seeing much higher numbers for professionals. tsa has issued a correction as of 22:10 on Jun 30, 2016 |
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Jun 30, 2016 22:03
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tsa posted:Interestingly enough it ain't the professional leaving, it's the uneducated (because in part what extremely high min wage laws <relative to economic productivity> cause massive unemployment.) The best way to do this is on the backend through welfare, as it's much less distorting. Of course pr doesn't have the money for that either. tsa posted:Also 'the same work' is probably a stretch, Puerto Rico schools are pretty lovely compared to the US. The best school is equivalent to a crappy state school you never heard of and it gets much worse from there. The starting salary for a nurse with a bachelors is 2.5k a month or 30k a year. This is by our laws the least you can pay one working on the private sector, so guess what thats what they get paid. The average in most states is more than twice that. Also dont give me that gently caress about Universities. UPRs are all rated really well and cost a fraction of what other universities would have you pay. e- Another example, a chief at my unit works at HP as a software engineer. He has decades of experience, he's a cw3 in the army and currently leads one of the teams in a multi state group to develop an inhouse software solution for the company. He gets paid like a third of what he would if he was working in the states. The only reason why he hasn't moved already is because his wife doesn't want to leave the island (he's from georgia originally). A friend finished his bachelors in electric engineering and went to honeywell to get a job, starting pay was 30k. Left for texas and started getting paid over twice that. Another finished a bachelors in english and teached over here for 2 years before moving to texas. Got paid 21k here, 52k in texas. Cao Ni Ma has issued a correction as of 22:59 on Jun 30, 2016 |
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Jun 30, 2016 22:50
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Cao Ni Ma posted:Let me guess you are googling and trying to find the average using that. That doesnt work like that here. Public school teachers get paid more on average here than private school ones unless the private school has some prestige to it. I think this is the norm everywhere? I know that public teachers make more money than private school teachers in Texas for sure.
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Jun 30, 2016 22:58
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Twerk from Home posted:I think this is the norm everywhere? I know that public teachers make more money than private school teachers in Texas for sure. The 21k is for a public teacher. Thats literally what they get paid starting out. Imagine getting paid even less. Now if you google in English asking what the average teacher salary is in puerto rico you get like 50k. Thats not the reality of it.
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Jun 30, 2016 23:08
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Cao Ni Ma posted:The 21k is for a public teacher. Thats literally what they get paid starting out. Imagine getting paid even less. Now if you google in English asking what the average teacher salary is in puerto rico you get like 50k. Thats not the reality of it. All that I was saying is that public school teachers make more than private. In central Texas you're looking at starting high 40s low 50s for public school teachers, and more like mid 30s for private school teachers.
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Jun 30, 2016 23:12
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Cao Ni Ma posted:The 21k is for a public teacher. Thats literally what they get paid starting out. Imagine getting paid even less. Now if you google in English asking what the average teacher salary is in puerto rico you get like 50k. Thats not the reality of it. What do you think can be done to prevent debt issues from happening again? Is it solely the corruption on the island causing these issues? And why is pay so low in Puerto Rico, is it just a factor of too many people, not enough jobs?
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Jun 30, 2016 23:12
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Mrit posted:What do you think can be done to prevent debt issues from happening again? Is it solely the corruption on the island causing these issues? Seriously, I dont know. Corruption has definitely left its mark, general incompetence and bad decisions by our governments investment bank has also played a big part of it. Having public utilities and a public investment bank are great ideas if they are managed properly, instead they are a vehicle for whatever party is in control to do whatever it is they want. Its hosed up that they might do away with them but honestly, they are causing way more damage than what they are worth right now. Having a VAT instead of a sales tax would do a lot to bring money back into the system, because right now a lot of it is underground. Of course we had the chance to implement a vat 10 years ago but the party in power at the time was the one that liked statehood and welp the states use sales taxes so we'll get a sales tax too hurrr. Every flight I've had when I come from the states to PR has been jam packed with people. Like half of them are puerto ricans coming back from holidays or whatever but it always surprises me just how many people come to this loving island. If we actually developed our tourist industry it would create a lot of jobs. Instead we loving wreck our own beaches, chase people off with our horrible driving that seem to claim a tourist bicyclist every other week and now people aren't applying everything we've known about dengue to zyka so we have an outbreak of that.
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Jun 30, 2016 23:39
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Cao Ni Ma posted:*writes a massive effort post about why this island loving sucks and we deserve everything we get*
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Jun 30, 2016 23:39
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Here's Bernie's comments “I rise in very strong opposition to the Puerto Rico Oversight, Management, and Economic Stability Act, the so-called PROMESA Act. This is a terrible piece of legislation, setting horrific precedent, and it must not be passed. The United States of America should not treat Puerto Rico as a colony. We cannot and must not take away the democratic rights of the 3.5 million Americans of Puerto Rico and give virtually all power on that island to a seven-member board that will be dominated, as it happens, by four Republicans. This legislation strips away the most important powers of the democratically elected officials of Puerto Rico, the Governor, the Legislature, and the municipal governments as well. We must not allow that to happen. This is not what the United States of America is supposed to be about, and this is not how we should treat a territory in the year 2016. The bottom line is that the United States must not become a colonial master, which is precisely what this legislation allows. Any decisions that are made regarding the future of Puerto Rico must be made by the people of that island and their elected officials. This legislation, I should add, is not just about taking away the democratic rights of the people of Puerto Rico. It is about punishing them economically. Since 2006, Puerto Rico has been in the midst of a major economic depression. In the last 10 years, Puerto Rico has lost 20 percent of its jobs. About 60 percent of Puerto Rico’s adult population is either unemployed or has given up looking for work. Over the last 5 years alone, more than 150 public schools have been shut down and the childhood poverty rate in Puerto Rico is now 58 percent. There is a mass migration out of Puerto Rico to the mainland of professionals because there is simply no work on the island. In the midst of this human suffering and economic turmoil, it is morally repugnant that billionaire hedge fund managers on Wall Street are demanding that Puerto Rico fire teachers, close schools, cut pensions, and lower the minimum wage so that they can reap huge profits off the suffering and misery of the American citizens on that island. We have to understand that Puerto Rico’s $70 billion in debt is unsustainable and unpayable. That is just a fact. You cannot get blood out of a stone. The reason — or one of the major reasons that it is unpayable — has a lot to do with the greed of Wall Street vulture funds. In recent years, vulture funds have purchased a significant amount of Puerto Rico’s debt. In fact, it has been estimated that over one-third of Puerto Rico’s debt is now owned by these vulture funds that are getting interest rates of up to 34 percent on tax-exempt bonds they purchased for as little as 29 cents on the dollar. Let me repeat that. Vulture funds are getting interest rates of up to 34 percent on tax-exempt bonds they purchased for as little as 29 cents on the dollar. Let us be clear. This issue is a significant part of what the entire debate regarding Puerto Rico is about. Billionaire hedge fund managers who purchased Puerto Rican bonds for pennies on the dollar now want a 100 percent return on their investment, while schools are being shut down in Puerto Rico, while pensions are being threatened with cuts, while children on the island go hungry. That is morally unacceptable. That should not be allowed by the Congress. It is bad enough for Republicans in the House to write legislation that takes away the democratic rights of U.S. citizens living in Puerto Rico, but adding insult to injury, this legislation does something even more insulting. At a time when health, education, and nutrition programs will likely be cut, this legislation, if you can believe it, requires the taxpayers of Puerto Rico to pay for the financial control board at the unbelievable sum of $370 million in order to fund the control board’s bureaucracy. So think about it for a second. The control board will likely cut programs for the elderly, the children, the sick, and the poor, on an island where 58 percent of the children are already living in poverty because Puerto Rico does not have enough money to take care of its most vulnerable people. In the midst of all that, $370 million is going to be sucked away from Puerto Rico in order to pay for the administration of the financial control board. This, to me, is literally beyond belief. Puerto Rico must be given the time it needs to grow its economy, to create jobs, to reduce its poverty rate, and to expand its tax base so that it can pay back its debt in a way that is fair and just. In my view, we need austerity — not for the people of Puerto Rico but for the billionaire Wall Street hedge fund managers who have exacerbated the financial crisis on the island. We must tell them loudly and clearly that they cannot get everything they want while workers in Puerto Rico are fired, while schools are shut down, while health care is underfunded, and while children on that island live in poverty. I am very disappointed that this extremely important piece of legislation is being pushed through Congress without allowing any amendments here in the Senate. That is not the way we should be doing business. If allowed, I will offer an amendment in the form of legislation that I have introduced — legislation that would allow Puerto Rico’s debt to be structured through the creation of a reconstruction finance corporation. Let’s never forget that in 2008, when Wall Street’s greed, recklessness, and illegal behavior nearly destroyed our economy, the Federal Reserve provided $16 trillion in virtually zero — zero — interest loans to every major financial institution in this country, as well as central banks and corporations throughout the world. If the Federal Reserve and the Treasury Department could move quickly to stabilize our economy and global markets in 2008, we can surely help the 3.5 million American citizens in Puerto Rico who are hurting today. The Fed can and should provide low-interest loans to Puerto Rico and facilitate an orderly restructuring of Puerto Rico’s debt. This legislation is both a political and economic disaster for the people of Puerto Rico. This legislation takes away their democratic rights and self-governance and will impose harsh austerity measures, which will make the poorest people in Puerto Rico even poorer. This is legislation that should not be passed by the Congress.” taken from here: http://www.salon.com/2016/07/01/watch_sanders_blasts_colonial_puerto_rico_bill_and_wall_street_vulture_funds_in_powerful_senate_speech/
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Jul 4, 2016 01:02
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Fast Luck posted:Here's Bernie's comments
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Jul 4, 2016 15:36
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tsa posted:Interestingly enough it ain't the professional leaving, it's the uneducated (because in part what extremely high min wage laws <relative to economic productivity> cause massive unemployment.) The best way to do this is on the backend through welfare, as it's much less distorting. Of course pr doesn't have the money for that either. There's so many problems in Puerto Rico and you think that the lack of opportunity really comes down to minimum wage? You think flipping the switch to poverty wages is going to cause an economic renaissance? Seems like you're the one who believes minimum wage laws are magic. Best case scenario is this brings back a few lovely sweatshops all the young workers lucky enough to have a job learn to live with a lot less money.
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Jul 4, 2016 20:21
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