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Hipster_Doofus
Dec 20, 2003

Lovin' every minute of it.

Powered Descent posted:

he talked about the acting gig he'd had before getting cast on Voyager: a one-second appearance in a Burger King commercial. He was wearing the paper hat and carrying a tray of food, and turned around with it to face the camera and say "At everyday low prices!" (A bunch of people in the audience went "whoa" as they suddenly remembered the commercial from that description.)

God dammit why isn't this commercial on youtube?!! I don't remember it at all.

Powered Descent posted:

Trayweather? Mucker?

Legit lol'ed heartily, and boy did I need it. Thank you.


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DrNutt
Apr 12, 2007

*not a real doctor




This thread's fascination with Tuvix is fuckin weird. This is Star Trek where the needs of the many (2) outweigh the needs of the one. He was a transporter abomination created by accident and keeping him alive while a cure was available was the equivalent of murdering Tuvok and Neelix. Good riddance.

The Bloop
Jul 5, 2004

Booyah


Ultra Carp

DrNutt posted:

This thread's fascination with Tuvix is fuckin weird. This is Star Trek where the needs of the many (2) outweigh the needs of the one. He was a transporter abomination created by accident and keeping him alive while a cure was available was the equivalent of murdering Tuvok and Neelix. Good riddance.

They were already dead

Murdering him and Spock sacrificing himself for his loved ones (after shoving his katra into Bones) are not the same thing

Epicurius
Apr 10, 2010


College Slice

You're all forgetting about the real victim here...the orchid.

bull3964
Nov 18, 2000

DO YOU HEAR THAT? THAT'S THE SOUND OF ME PATTING MYSELF ON THE BACK.




Whatever about the victims. The real hero here is the transporter, for the fantastic sense of FASHION!

FlamingLiberal
Jan 18, 2009

Would you like to play a game?



Allison Pregler did a good video about Tuvix a few days back

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wVY63nx74_U&t=0s

Astroman
Apr 8, 2001



The injustice of Tuvix has nothing on what was done to Lindsay Ballard.

FlamingLiberal
Jan 18, 2009

Would you like to play a game?



More TOS-

Catspaw- I'm really not sure why this episode exists. Apparently it was shot as a possible Halloween thing, which is just weird for Trek. There has not yet been another holiday-themed episode in the 50+ years since this show aired. It's just very bizarre and I'm not even sure how to describe it. It isn't until about 3/4 of the way into the episode where we find out what the actual plot is. Even for TOS the late episode reveal of the tiny pipe-cleaner aliens was pretty pathetic.

I, Mudd- This (mostly comedic) episode actually holds up pretty well? It's now the 3rd episode where Kirk logics a computer(s) to death. The cast seem to be having a really good time in this one. I like this one better than the first Mudd appearance.

SlothfulCobra
Mar 27, 2011

STOP BEING EVIL.


Tuvix is basically like if in that one episode where Kirk gets split into peaceful and violent versions of himself, each of the halves pontificated upon the existential nature of having to be rejoined.

And then of course they're not going to make the rest of the show about twin captains who neither of which are going to to be any good at captaining, but by portraying the obvious answer as ambiguous, it'd be fertile ground for arguments.

Powered Descent
Jul 13, 2008

We haven't had that spirit here since 1969.


Yam Slacker

SlothfulCobra posted:

Tuvix is basically like if in that one episode where Kirk gets split into peaceful and violent versions of himself, each of the halves pontificated upon the existential nature of having to be rejoined.

Nah, that would get in the way of the episode being the first of the three times that Kirk got to fistfight himself.

MisterBibs
Jul 17, 2010

dolla dolla
bill y'all


Fun Shoe

The thing I dug about the Kirk-split-into-two thing was that the 'evil' one was the only one capable of making decisions. I'm not sure why that stuck with me, since it made sense, but it did.

Sash!
Mar 16, 2001



MisterBibs posted:

The thing I dug about the Kirk-split-into-two thing was that the 'evil' one was the only one capable of making decisions. I'm not sure why that stuck with me, since it made sense, but it did.

Evil will always triumph because good is dumb

Tunicate
May 15, 2012





SlothfulCobra posted:

Tuvix is basically like if in that one episode where Kirk gets split into peaceful and violent versions of himself, each of the halves pontificated upon the existential nature of having to be rejoined.

And then of course they're not going to make the rest of the show about twin captains who neither of which are going to to be any good at captaining,

yeah this isn't farscape

Drink-Mix Man
Mar 4, 2003

You are an odd fellow, but I must say... you throw a swell shindig.

Sash! posted:

Evil will always triumph because good is dumb

TOS is so grimdark and fascist

Civilized Fishbot
Apr 3, 2011

man buys avatar
to save dead web forum
what a dumb moron



MisterBibs posted:

The thing I dug about the Kirk-split-into-two thing was that the 'evil' one was the only one capable of making decisions. I'm not sure why that stuck with me, since it made sense, but it did.

Drink-Mix Man posted:

TOS is so grimdark and fascist

Sash! posted:

Evil will always triumph because good is dumb

This is all somewhat undercut by the mirror universe episode, where again there's a good Kirk and an evil Kirk, and good Kirk craftily navigates an extremely complicated situation while evil Kirk is a frothing lunatic who immediately gets himself thrown in the brig.

I think it's important that we remember that in the episode where Kirk is split in two, both Kirk-halves are depicted as insufficient/incomplete people. Good Kirk is too soft for command, but evil Kirk has no impulse control. They're both pathetic and can't accomplish anything, and it's implied they'll both die unless they're reunited. It might not even be correct to call them "good" and "evil" so much as "superego" and "id."

Todd McGowan has an interesting analysis of the episode, comparing it to interpretations of Hegel: left Hegelians embraced Hegel's dialectical conception of history while dismissing his love of religion and the state, while right Hegelians took the religion and the state while dismissing the dialectical conception of history. The result was that Hegel was split neatly into two halves, but like with Kirk, neither of those halves had all the elements to survive by itself.

Civilized Fishbot fucked around with this message at 04:13 on May 22, 2020

DrNutt
Apr 12, 2007

*not a real doctor




The Bloop posted:

They were already dead

Murdering him and Spock sacrificing himself for his loved ones (after shoving his katra into Bones) are not the same thing

Well by the end of the episode they weren't dead so I dunno what to tell ya.

Civilized Fishbot
Apr 3, 2011

man buys avatar
to save dead web forum
what a dumb moron



DrNutt posted:

This thread's fascination with Tuvix is fuckin weird. This is Star Trek where the needs of the many (2) outweigh the needs of the one. He was a transporter abomination created by accident and keeping him alive while a cure was available was the equivalent of murdering Tuvok and Neelix. Good riddance.

The point of "needs of the many..." was that Spock was heroic for volunteering his life for the good of others. It would've been quite a different movie if Bones had forced Spock into the irradiated chamber at phaser-point.

If "Tuvix" had ended with Tuvix heroically allowing himself to be separated, making the sacrifice voluntarily as Spock did, it would've been totally forgettable. What makes it compelling is the question of whether Janeway has the right to force Tuvix to make such an immense sacrifice. At the end of the day, it's little more than "do the ends justify the means," but it's an interesting and emotionally compelling example and Janeway's utilitarian conclusion contrasts greatly with the idealistic moral inflexibilityy demonstrated by Kirk and (especially) Picard.

Civilized Fishbot fucked around with this message at 04:23 on May 22, 2020

DrNutt
Apr 12, 2007

*not a real doctor




Civilized Fishbot posted:

The point of "needs of the many..." was that Spock was heroic for volunteering his life for the good of others. It would've been quite a different movie if Bones had forced Spock into the irradiated chamber at phaser-point.

If "Tuvix" had ended with Tuvix allowing himself to be separated, making the sacrifice like Spock did, it would've been totally forgettable. What makes it compelling is the question of whether Janeway has the right to force Tuvix to make such an immense sacrifice.

Well Tuvix as a character sucked so I didn't find it all that compelling. But I guess that's Voyager for you.

Civilized Fishbot
Apr 3, 2011

man buys avatar
to save dead web forum
what a dumb moron



DrNutt posted:

Well Tuvix as a character sucked so I didn't find it all that compelling. But I guess that's Voyager for you.

You don't even like the scene at the end, when he's pleading for someone to recognize his right to life? "Doesn't anyone see that this is wrong!?!" I thought it was very well-acted.

DrNutt
Apr 12, 2007

*not a real doctor




Civilized Fishbot posted:

You don't even like the scene at the end, when he's pleading for someone to recognize his right to life? "Doesn't anyone see that this is wrong!?!" I thought it was very well-acted.

It honestly just fell really flat for me, well acted or not, because most of the episode is spent with him (intentions be damned) creeping the gently caress out of his fellow crewmates. If he had been integrating more successfully and there was a more significant crew presence standing behind him and demanding at least a trial or a hearing I think it might have worked better.

Also this is completely superficial and totally on me but the makeup design was so hideous that I was actually on board with having Neelix back at the end.

Big Mean Jerk
Jan 27, 2009

The future? You mean like flying cars? Hotels on the moon? Tang?


Grimey Drawer

They kinda tried the same thing in “Similitude” on Enterprise where Phlox quick-grows a clone of Trip to harvest his organs to save the real Trip and the clone starts hanging with the crew and forming real attachments and questioning why he has to die. But then Archer decides he has to die anyway because they’re on a mission and he’s a Hard Man making Hard Decisions. And, just like Tuvix, the episode accidentally reinforces the doomed character’s argument that uh yeah this is loving monstrous and wrong and the captain is the unambiguous villain of the story.

Zaroff
Nov 10, 2009

Nothing in the world can stop me now!

I wonder whether the Tuvix situation would have had more impact if they didn't restore Neelix and Tuvok at the end, and instead we had Tuvix for several episodes before the opportunity to separate him arose. The episode implied that a substantial amount of time took place across the episode, but it doesn't feel like it since it takes place over 45 minutes.

DrNutt
Apr 12, 2007

*not a real doctor




Big Mean Jerk posted:

They kinda tried the same thing in “Similitude” on Enterprise where Phlox quick-grows a clone of Trip to harvest his organs to save the real Trip and the clone starts hanging with the crew and forming real attachments and questioning why he has to die. But then Archer decides he has to die anyway because they’re on a mission and he’s a Hard Man making Hard Decisions. And, just like Tuvix, the episode accidentally reinforces the doomed character’s argument that uh yeah this is loving monstrous and wrong and the captain is the unambiguous villain of the story.

And generally I think that episode works a lot better because it was hosed up from the beginning and something that Phlox and Archer put in motion, not some whacky equipment malfunction accident. It also works better imo because they weren't going to kill off two other crew members to keep fake Trip alive, so there actually was a bit of tension in the outcome. (For instance NuTrip gets right to life, Phlox develops method to slow his development to normal human speed and he takes over, not unlike the things that happened to Harry Kim or Chief O'Brien).

8one6
May 20, 2012

When in doubt, err on the side of Awesome!


Grimey Drawer

Zaroff posted:

I wonder whether the Tuvix situation would have had more impact if they didn't restore Neelix and Tuvok at the end, and instead we had Tuvix for several episodes before the opportunity to separate him arose. The episode implied that a substantial amount of time took place across the episode, but it doesn't feel like it since it takes place over 45 minutes.

This is what competent show-runners or writers like the ones working on Farscape would have done, which is why a one-off character like Chiana became a regular on the show (seriously, she was originally only going to be in three episodes.) but as we've established

Tunicate posted:

yeah this isn't farscape

McSpanky
Jan 16, 2005









Civilized Fishbot posted:

This is all somewhat undercut by the mirror universe episode, where again there's a good Kirk and an evil Kirk, and good Kirk craftily navigates an extremely complicated situation while evil Kirk is a frothing lunatic who immediately gets himself thrown in the brig.

I think it's important that we remember that in the episode where Kirk is split in two, both Kirk-halves are depicted as insufficient/incomplete people. Good Kirk is too soft for command, but evil Kirk has no impulse control. They're both pathetic and can't accomplish anything, and it's implied they'll both die unless they're reunited. It might not even be correct to call them "good" and "evil" so much as "superego" and "id."

Yes, thank you! I can't believe people miss this so much. There was never a "good" and "evil" Kirk, that's a misdirect the episode plays at first because that's how we all tend to interpret the aggressive, primal aspects of ourselves, as negative things to be suppressed. But those feelings are also the underpinnings of our loves and commitments and passions, and without them we'd have no drive or willpower to act on the things we learn and reason to be good.

McSpanky fucked around with this message at 07:29 on May 22, 2020

thotsky
Jun 7, 2005

hot to trot


A reverse Chiana would have been funny. Tuvix catching on and the actor doing Neelix suddenly out of a job.

The Bloop
Jul 5, 2004

Booyah


Ultra Carp

thotsky posted:

the actor doing Neelix suddenly out of a job.

Just instantly becomes his Avenue 5 character

Timeless Appeal
May 28, 2006


Is there a stated reason why they more or less wrote out Alexander for DS9? He doesn't show up often, but NextGen does a pretty job of bringing him when it feels like it would make sense. I feel like it would have been fun to add him to the Jake/Nog power duo.

Arglebargle III
Feb 21, 2006


MY GIMMICK IS POSTING GIBBERISH



Have you finished watching the series?

bull3964
Nov 18, 2000

DO YOU HEAR THAT? THAT'S THE SOUND OF ME PATTING MYSELF ON THE BACK.




Well, the actor that played him in TNG (aside from the first appearance) left acting and went into music and later got into trouble with th law.

They aged him up in DS9 (by saying Klingons mature faster) because having a minor playing a character with a lot prosthetic makeup limited their filming time quite a bit. So, I think their choices were basically ignore Alexander and only refer to him offscreen or do what they did to give the character some closure.

John Wick of Dogs
Mar 4, 2017

The plan here is to reinvent Rin Tin Tin as a modern action star, the John Wick of dogs.


At the end of Tuvix they split them apart but instead of Tuvok and Neelix they get two Tuvixes who turn to Janeway and point and shout in unison "We are Fourvix"

Timeless Appeal
May 28, 2006


Arglebargle III posted:

Have you finished watching the series?
I mean I've already seen it...

It's just going through DS9, it seemed to be ignoring a lot of Worf's character progress on NextGen and Worf is probably the only character besides Picard who has a clear arc on NextGen.

HD DAD
Jan 13, 2010

Generic white guy.

Toilet Rascal

John Wick of Dogs posted:

At the end of Tuvix they split them apart but instead of Tuvok and Neelix they get two Tuvixes who turn to Janeway and point and shout in unison "We are Fourvix"

Why can’t I stop giggling at this

SlothfulCobra
Mar 27, 2011

STOP BEING EVIL.


My point is mainly that Star Trek has a lot of existential nightmare episodes with characters who come into being by accident and must be eliminated, or whose existence is parasitic upon other people, and whatnot, although it's mainly just a thinly veiled excuse to get an actor to show their acting chops by showing their range outside of their typical character.

Although 'good' Kirk's indecisiveness reminds me of that book I read where people who have nonfunctioning emotional centers of their brains aren't wise sages of logic, they're incapable of making meaningless decisions because they're unable to arbitrarily choose one or the other when neither matters.

Big Mean Jerk
Jan 27, 2009

The future? You mean like flying cars? Hotels on the moon? Tang?


Grimey Drawer

John Wick of Dogs posted:

At the end of Tuvix they split them apart but instead of Tuvok and Neelix they get two Tuvixes who turn to Janeway and point and shout in unison "We are Fourvix"

This legit killed me at work

Senor Tron
May 25, 2006



DrNutt posted:

Well by the end of the episode they weren't dead so I dunno what to tell ya.

It's a good episode of Voyager because it still causes these debates decades later.

There are numerous different ways of looking at the situation that have been gone through over the franchise. What if it was a time travel reset button so that Tuvix never came into being? What if it was an entirely unconnected crew member whose life could be sacrificed to bring them back?

oh but seriously I
Sep 26, 2019

Do you ever wonder if there are other planets out there
(source)

TV shows are just as TV showy as in the 90s but now the convention is everybody speaks in parables as opposed to everything reverting to the status quo at the end of the episode

?

CubanMissile
Apr 22, 2003

Of Hulks and Spider Men.

Watching House of Quark and getting a kick out of Gowron and the High Council trying to read spreadsheets.

Drone
Aug 22, 2003

Incredible machine.




CubanMissile posted:

Watching House of Quark and getting a kick out of Gowron and the High Council trying to read spreadsheets.

Pivot tables are WITHOUT honor.

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Ramadu
Aug 25, 2004

2015 NFL MVP



https://twitter.com/tobytobyjones/s...798561962176512


holy fuckin poo poo

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