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nine-gear crow
Aug 10, 2013

low vis




MikeJF posted:

I think it may have been better if the cobra head was wider, out to the width of the nacelles. Mount the impulse engines a little wider and have the cobra head out roughly like this, mirror the shape



Or go the other way and do something similar to what STO does with the Odyssey (many other issues with the Odyssey design notwithstanding)



Either way helps solve the problem that the cobra head is too small and it looks decapitated against the nacelles.

Huh. I was wondering how the Enterprise-F did saucer separation because it didn't look plausible the was it was designed.

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McSpanky
Jan 16, 2005







nine-gear crow posted:

Huh. I was wondering how the Enterprise-F did saucer separation because it didn't look plausible the was it was designed.

I mean, it's obviously not. All the latter-era designs with the saucers mashed directly onto the engineering section look like boiled rear end every time someone tries to work saucer separation into them.

Brawnfire
Jul 13, 2004

Come play my CYOA!

Save your reality from the Constructors... then save all the rest of them.



I dearly wish Trek designers weren't so embarrassed of necks and nacelle columns. They're honestly the most charming and unique aesthetic parts of Federation vessels, and probably largely the reason the Enterprise is a globally recognized symbol for a fictional starship in a world full of fictional starships. It's like finding out your nose is what makes people recognize you so you replace it with a smooth expanse.

jeeves
May 27, 2001

Deranged Psychopathic
Butler Extraordinaire


Brawnfire posted:

I dearly wish Trek designers weren't so embarrassed of necks and nacelle columns. They're honestly the most charming and unique aesthetic parts of Federation vessels, and probably largely the reason the Enterprise is a globally recognized symbol for a fictional starship in a world full of fictional starships. It's like finding out your nose is what makes people recognize you so you replace it with a smooth expanse.

Thank Eaves for this tbh

I mean, the seeds were sown with Voyager. But Eaves kicked it up to its currently stupidity that it doesn't seem like Trek is ever recovering from.

MikeJF
Dec 20, 2003






McSpanky posted:

I mean, it's obviously not. All the latter-era designs with the saucers mashed directly onto the engineering section look like boiled rear end every time someone tries to work saucer separation into them.

The Enterprise-F definitely has a neck, though. It has two!

PerniciousKnid
Sep 13, 2006


Brawnfire posted:

I dearly wish Trek designers weren't so embarrassed of necks and nacelle columns. They're honestly the most charming and unique aesthetic parts of Federation vessels, and probably largely the reason the Enterprise is a globally recognized symbol for a fictional starship in a world full of fictional starships. It's like finding out your nose is what makes people recognize you so you replace it with a smooth expanse.

It just makes me appreciate the Enterprise more.

Protagorean
May 19, 2013

"I could learn a thing or two about posting from the majestic sloth."


enterprise-e is for erotic👀😤, sexiest spaceship 💯👅💦💦. i want to kiss eaves 😍👑 on mouth 💋🥴

Astroman
Apr 8, 2001




McSpanky posted:

I mean, it's obviously not. All the latter-era designs with the saucers mashed directly onto the engineering section look like boiled rear end


Brawnfire posted:

I dearly wish Trek designers weren't so embarrassed of necks and nacelle columns. They're honestly the most charming and unique aesthetic parts of Federation vessels, and probably largely the reason the Enterprise is a globally recognized symbol for a fictional starship in a world full of fictional starships. It's like finding out your nose is what makes people recognize you so you replace it with a smooth expanse.

Exactly.

Royal Updog
Sep 26, 2019

Do you ever wonder if there are other planets out there
(source)

the only acceptable saucer separation is when picard drinks his tea

PerniciousKnid
Sep 13, 2006


I still don't love Cause and Effect, but I really loved the first poker game for Worf reacting to Data's running commentary.

PerniciousKnid
Sep 13, 2006


I'm watching The Next Phase and there's a scene where Worf raises security concerns about lending the Romulans a computer core, and after Riker responds favorably Worf makes a point to say "thank you" and I laughed out loud. "Finally, somebody humors my anti-Romulan paranoia!"

Goblin Craft
Feb 12, 2002



Is it paranoia if they really are out to get you?

FlamingLiberal
Jan 18, 2009

Would you like to play a game?





PerniciousKnid posted:

I'm watching The Next Phase and there's a scene where Worf raises security concerns about lending the Romulans a computer core, and after Riker responds favorably Worf makes a point to say "thank you" and I laughed out loud. "Finally, somebody humors my anti-Romulan paranoia!"
I think one of the RLM TNG videos also pointed out that moment because 99% of the time, Worfís suggestions get shot down

Lemniscate Blue
Apr 21, 2006

Here we go again.

It's funny how Worf gets poo poo on for being aggressive and paranoid about threats in TNG, but a) he's the security/tactical officer so presenting those concerns and options is literally his job and b) he was right a lot and if they'd listened to him they wouldn't have gotten into so much stupid trouble. Samaritan Snare comes to mind.

John F Bennett
Jan 30, 2013

I always wear my wedding ring. It's my trademark.



Lemniscate Blue posted:

It's funny how Worf gets poo poo on for being aggressive and paranoid about threats in TNG, but a) he's the security/tactical officer so presenting those concerns and options is literally his job and b) he was right a lot and if they'd listened to him they wouldn't have gotten into so much stupid trouble. Samaritan Snare comes to mind.

Yesterday I watched the episode where Data is experimenting with love and Worf was about to go to red alert just because Picard's ipad fell off his desk.

Minidust
Nov 4, 2009

Hello chiicagooo!

Oh, wait, is that a GameStop employee in the back? Hey, you, give me a refund. No, I don't care if it was my fault, just - look, am I the one with the microphone or not? REFUND, biyotch!

Catching up on canon chat, I recall reading at some point that all Star Trek EU stuff is considered non-canon by default. And Star Wars, by contrast, considers EU stuff canon until it isn't (basically anything on film has automatic veto power).

I'm sure the "rules" of this has changed over the years as the amount of content has really proliferated. Like I guess the old Star Trek comics aren't canon, but something like a nu-Trek prequel comic is? Ultimately it'll come down to whatever the current show/movie in production feels like doing... so fans of Nero's borg sidequest shouldn't get too attached I guess

skasion
Feb 13, 2012

Why don't you perform zazen, facing a wall?


Canon is a myth. I believe in Giant Spock and no one can stop me

Royal Updog
Sep 26, 2019

Do you ever wonder if there are other planets out there
(source)

It's Spocks all the way down.

Senor Tron
May 25, 2006




Minidust posted:

Catching up on canon chat, I recall reading at some point that all Star Trek EU stuff is considered non-canon by default. And Star Wars, by contrast, considers EU stuff canon until it isn't (basically anything on film has automatic veto power).

I'm sure the "rules" of this has changed over the years as the amount of content has really proliferated. Like I guess the old Star Trek comics aren't canon, but something like a nu-Trek prequel comic is? Ultimately it'll come down to whatever the current show/movie in production feels like doing... so fans of Nero's borg sidequest shouldn't get too attached I guess

Picard has already contradicted that "canon" ST09 prequel comic.

Big Mean Jerk
Jan 27, 2009

Well, of course I know him.
He's me.


Minidust posted:

Catching up on canon chat, I recall reading at some point that all Star Trek EU stuff is considered non-canon by default. And Star Wars, by contrast, considers EU stuff canon until it isn't (basically anything on film has automatic veto power).

I'm sure the "rules" of this has changed over the years as the amount of content has really proliferated. Like I guess the old Star Trek comics aren't canon, but something like a nu-Trek prequel comic is? Ultimately it'll come down to whatever the current show/movie in production feels like doing... so fans of Nero's borg sidequest shouldn't get too attached I guess

One big difference between the two is also that the Star Wars EU almost always had/has a core group of writers telling interconnected stories, whereas the Star Trek EU is just the Wild West with everyone doing sometimes contradictory stuff and didnít really do big connected events and stories until the early 00ís.

Sir Lemming
Jan 27, 2009

It's a piece of JUNK!

With Star Wars, the original trilogy loomed large over everything else, and that was mostly a unified vision (despite Empire & Jedi obviously having to retcon some stuff on the fly, and you can't tell me otherwise). Star Trek, with its primary document being a '60s TV show, started contradicting itself pretty early on.

Royal Updog
Sep 26, 2019

Do you ever wonder if there are other planets out there
(source)

Star Trek concerns itself with the big questions, sweating the small stuff would be a disgrace to Gene's Vision

Minidust
Nov 4, 2009

Hello chiicagooo!

Oh, wait, is that a GameStop employee in the back? Hey, you, give me a refund. No, I don't care if it was my fault, just - look, am I the one with the microphone or not? REFUND, biyotch!

Sir Lemming posted:

With Star Wars, the original trilogy loomed large over everything else, and that was mostly a unified vision (despite Empire & Jedi obviously having to retcon some stuff on the fly, and you can't tell me otherwise). Star Trek, with its primary document being a '60s TV show, started contradicting itself pretty early on.

Big Mean Jerk posted:

One big difference between the two is also that the Star Wars EU almost always had/has a core group of writers telling interconnected stories, whereas the Star Trek EU is just the Wild West with everyone doing sometimes contradictory stuff and didn’t really do big connected events and stories until the early 00’s.
Yeah good points. Just using 90s video games as a point of camparison, there was no Star Trek equivalent of LucasArts. So with Star Wars you'd get all this lore developed with a somewhat official stamp of approval, which in turn probably got used as source material for other media later on (like I just assume some of the technical details of TIE Fighters and stuff, created specifially for PC games, have popped up elsewhere). Meanwhile if, say, Trelane were to appear on an episode of Voyager, I doubt any reference would have been made to his appearance in Judgment Rites.

And yeah, even just considering TOS, by the mid-'80s it was about 70 hours of total film content (minus TV commercials, plus TOS movies) vs like 6 for Star Wars. So kind of apples and oranges when it comes to keeping any of it consistent.


Senor Tron posted:

Picard has already contradicted that "canon" ST09 prequel comic.
Ha, well there you go!

Royal Updog
Sep 26, 2019

Do you ever wonder if there are other planets out there
(source)

Space Oranges. With silver paint & glitter

Lester Shy
May 1, 2002

Goodness no, now that wouldn't do at all!


In the 90s Star Wars had like five different "levels" of canon, with the movies taking priority over everything else, then the books, then the video games and so on. When Disney reset everything, I think the intention was to give every piece of EU media equal treatment, but I can't imagine that's held up in any significant way.

Marshal Radisic
Oct 9, 2012




As I see it, the big difference was that Lucasfilm always had a hand in the development of the Star Wars EU as part of a broader marketing/cross-promotional design, while Trek's EU was something that developed in a more ad hoc fashion out of fandom outside of any license holder's control, only to be corralled later on. I kinda think of the late 1980s/early 1990s as a period of "enclosure" for Trek, when a more concrete vision of the world and history of the Trek universe was codified and EU works were expected to fall in line. Certainly if you read Voyages of the Imagination or Margaret Bonnano's essay on the hatchet job that was done on her manuscript for Music of the Spheres/Probe there's a sense that the editors at Pocket Books were becoming increasingly restrictive over what was and wasn't allowed in Trek books at that time, and it was enough to get some people to stop writing Trek books altogether. When I started getting into Trek in the late 1990s, the iron rule was that only the shows and movies were "real", and everything else was glorified fanfiction. (TAS was an uncertain case that was left in the cold more often than not.)

I feel like these two different attitudes stem all the way back to the initial creators. Despite building an empire, George Lucas seems to have something an ambivalence towards the franchise that subsumed his career as a filmmaker. By contrast, ol' Gene wanted to be God of his little realm and would raise hell if anyone dared say boo to him.

Big Mean Jerk
Jan 27, 2009

Well, of course I know him.
He's me.


Lester Shy posted:

When Disney reset everything, I think the intention was to give every piece of EU media equal treatment, but I can't imagine that's held up in any significant way.

It actually has, for the most part. There have been a couple of contradictions but they were minor and the story group has been pretty good about working with creatives to keep everything unified. It definitely helps that the existing canon EU is absolutely tiny compared to the old Bantam/Del Rey/Lucasarts EU universe. Way less stuff to keep track of now and theyíve generally avoided diving into big gaps in the timeline in order to keep things open for future movies/shows.

It kinda hampers the quality of the actual EU media when all of it is effectively fancy filler, but I guess thatís the price you end up paying for an ongoing film and tv series.

NikkolasKing
Apr 3, 2010





So I've naturally seen ST eps on TV and stuff over the years. Last time I was considering really hunkering down and watching all of the shows, I was told most ST is so episodic that I should skip a lot of stuff and just watch the good eps. This was mainly for TOS and TNG, IIRC.

What do you all think of that strategy?

Delsaber
Oct 1, 2013

This may or may not be correct.



I've always appreciated the general simplicity of Star Trek's canon/non-canon distinctions with the EU. If it's in one of the TV shows or movies, it's canon. Everything else is non-canon unless one of those TV shows or movies uplifts it into a produced script. That's it, done.

I wonder how many previously non-canon things have actually been canonized. Other than the Luna-class Titan design being official now, I can't think of much.

Boxturret
Oct 3, 2013

"..fight the mighty bearwhale by throwing all their money at it

then much celebrating occurred after the bearwhle left after eating all their money

i still don't get it"

-Me on Sept 20th, 2015

Just watch the show

Antifa Turkeesian
Aug 20, 2006



NikkolasKing posted:

So I've naturally seen ST eps on TV and stuff over the years. Last time I was considering really hunkering down and watching all of the shows, I was told most ST is so episodic that I should skip a lot of stuff and just watch the good eps. This was mainly for TOS and TNG, IIRC.

What do you all think of that strategy?

I think every episode of the original series is astounding in one sense of the word or another, but TNG is kind of like sensory wallpaper if it's not one of the good ones, in that you can just leave it on and do something else so you'll be able to understand the reference if there's a meme later. The first season has some pretty incredible poo poo if you're into interesting failures or the enjoyable kind of bad.

Big Mean Jerk
Jan 27, 2009

Well, of course I know him.
He's me.


On the one hand, Watch Everything.

But on the other, yeah thatís a lot of content and itís (mostly) fine to jump around.
- TOS is completely episodic.
- TNG is largely episodic but some running things do pop up, like Q and Picardís Borg experience.
- DS9 is serialized with episodic elements in between, so I wouldnít really recommend skipping around at all.
- Voyager is mostly episodic like TNG, with a few recurring storylines.
- Enterprise is episodic for the first two seasons, the third is one long story, and the fourth is a series of multi-part stories.
- Discovery is heavily serialized.
- Picard is heavily serialized and builds on the TNG movies.
- Lower Decks is like TNG.

Rob Rockley
Feb 23, 2009





NikkolasKing posted:

So I've naturally seen ST eps on TV and stuff over the years. Last time I was considering really hunkering down and watching all of the shows, I was told most ST is so episodic that I should skip a lot of stuff and just watch the good eps. This was mainly for TOS and TNG, IIRC.

What do you all think of that strategy?

For TNG at least, just watch. Skip if you get real bored or hate an episode. I went through TNG 1+2 with a watchlist a couple months back and regret skipping most of the ones I skipped cause it turns out most of the episodes are actually decent and itís impossible to predict exactly which episodes someone will like.

Even the bad ones are usually funny in a b movie sense, and while they hadnít figured out at that point how to characterize the cast thereís still a lot of setup.

HopperUK
Apr 29, 2007

Clear off, fatso, this is a respectable establishment




Yeah if you don't yet know what's going to annoy you and bore you and what isn't, it's hard to say what to skip.

TOS is absolutely packed with 1960s sexism. No more than most shows of the time really but if you're not in the mood for it, it can be a bit much.

1000 Brown M and Ms
Oct 22, 2008

F:\DL>quickfli 4-clowns.fli

Delsaber posted:

I've always appreciated the general simplicity of Star Trek's canon/non-canon distinctions with the EU. If it's in one of the TV shows or movies, it's canon. Everything else is non-canon unless one of those TV shows or movies uplifts it into a produced script. That's it, done.

I wonder how many previously non-canon things have actually been canonized. Other than the Luna-class Titan design being official now, I can't think of much.

The only other one that I can think of off the top of my head is Uhura's first name of Nyota. She was given that in one of the novels back in the 80s or so but it wasn't said onscreen and made canon until the 2009 film. Up until then she had always just been called Uhura.

Astroman
Apr 8, 2001




1000 Brown M and Ms posted:

The only other one that I can think of off the top of my head is Uhura's first name of Nyota. She was given that in one of the novels back in the 80s or so but it wasn't said onscreen and made canon until the 2009 film. Up until then she had always just been called Uhura.

One novel or fanzine tried to name her Penda which failed and became the betamax of Uhura names.

Seemlar
Jun 17, 2002


I think Number One from TOS/Discovery had something like a dozen different names until Discovery made Una official

Farmer Crack-Ass
Jan 2, 2001

~this is me posting irl~


Marshal Radisic posted:

I feel like these two different attitudes stem all the way back to the initial creators. Despite building an empire, George Lucas seems to have something an ambivalence towards the franchise that subsumed his career as a filmmaker. By contrast, ol' Gene wanted to be God of his little realm and would raise hell if anyone dared say boo to him.

I think Paramount taking creative control away from Gene after TMP really poisoned his attitudes in that regard, or at least made them much worse than they might otherwise have been. I'm not saying he was previously a paragon of collaboration and inclusion, but I think he saw (probably rightfully so) his position as The Creator to be the last leverage he had left against the studio, and he acted to try and solidify that position however he could.

piratepilates
Mar 28, 2004

So I will learn to live with it. Because I can live with it. I can live with it.





The fun thing about watching Ship in a bottle before Elementary, Dear Data is that you finish the latter knowing there's no happy ending, they don't find a happy resolution for Moriarty, they just forget about him for 4 years and don't give a poo poo about him.

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Angry Salami
Jul 27, 2013

Don't trust the skull.


1000 Brown M and Ms posted:

The only other one that I can think of off the top of my head is Uhura's first name of Nyota. She was given that in one of the novels back in the 80s or so but it wasn't said onscreen and made canon until the 2009 film. Up until then she had always just been called Uhura.

Similarly, I believe Hikaru as Sulu's first name was first used in the novels a decade before it was used onscreen in the Undiscovered Country.

Discovery's had a few references - they've mentioned the Black Fleet as part of the Klingon afterlife, from John M. Ford's "The Final Reflection", and in a particularly deep cut, Ni'Var - meaning 'two forms' or 'two perspectives' - is from the non-canon Vulcan language first developed in fanzines while TOS was still on the air!

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