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Gonz
Dec 22, 2009

"Jesus, did I say that? Or just think it? Was I talking? Did they hear me?"


You can't have a Starfleet without evil Admirals. That's like asking for water to not contain 2 hydrogen atoms.

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HD DAD
Jan 13, 2010

Generic white guy.



Toilet Rascal

Riker became an evil admiral in All Good Things. Janeway had the evil set in prematurely, so they had to immediately promote her once she set foot on Earth again.

FlamingLiberal
Jan 18, 2009

Would you like to play a game?





Starships $200
Starbases $500
Phasers $100
Evil Admirals $10,000
Officers $300

someone please help me budget this, my Starfleet is dying

nine-gear crow
Aug 10, 2013

low vis




HD DAD posted:

Riker became an evil admiral in All Good Things. Janeway had the evil set in prematurely, so they had to immediately promote her once she set foot on Earth again.

Picard didn't go evil when he became an admiral, but he did turn into a selfish dickhead.

Kibayasu
Mar 28, 2010



FlamingLiberal posted:

Starships $200
Starbases $500
Phasers $100
Evil Admirals $10,000
Officers $300

someone please help me budget this, my Starfleet is dying

Get more brain parasites so you can have the evil admirals for free.

showbiz_liz
Jun 2, 2008


DoggesAndCattes posted:

On my first watch of TNG and finished watching episode 4. I'm immensely enjoying it compared to my first watch of TOS. Not to be negative towards TOS, but the TV series was difficult for me to watch.

This is the opposite of my experience - watching TNG as an adult for the first time (after seeing the show a lot as a little kid), the first several episodes were a terrible beige slog, but watching TOS as an adult felt like fun! space! adventures! with your pals! from the very beginning.

Sweeper
Nov 28, 2007
The Joe Buck of Posting


Dinosaur Gum

showbiz_liz posted:

This is the opposite of my experience - watching TNG as an adult for the first time (after seeing the show a lot as a little kid), the first several episodes were a terrible beige slog, but watching TOS as an adult felt like fun! space! adventures! with your pals! from the very beginning.

I didn’t like much of TOS until episode 18 I think, up until then I found it A struggle to watch

I’m still struggling my way through TOS, I’ve watched every other Star Trek multiple times but I always get stuck with TOS

Sweeper fucked around with this message at 01:39 on May 4, 2021

skasion
Feb 13, 2012

Why don't you perform zazen, facing a wall?


TOS episodes are entirely self contained. If you don’t like it by the first ad break just skip to the next one.

Then revisit all the lovely ones in a row at the end

OldSenileGuy
Mar 13, 2001


I don't know what the difference is between the two Trek threads so forgive me if this is the wrong thread:

I recently started watching DS9 for the first time. It's ok, but I'm only at the end of the first season so far. Then I saw this:

https://www.thevulcanreporter.com/exclusives/star-trek-deep-space-nine-remaster/

Is this a legit website or is this bullshit? I would think that legit news of a DS9 remaster would be everywhere, as opposed to really only reported on by one site. If it's true, I'll probably wait and continue my watching once the remaster is out.

HIJK
Nov 25, 2012

People were stupid, sometimes. They thought the Library was a dangerous place because of all the magical books, which was true enough, but what made it really one of the most dangerous places there could ever be was the simple fact that it was a library.


I'm watching the first Vic episode and its very cute. Could Rene actually play piano?

FlamingLiberal
Jan 18, 2009

Would you like to play a game?





OldSenileGuy posted:

I don't know what the difference is between the two Trek threads so forgive me if this is the wrong thread:

I recently started watching DS9 for the first time. It's ok, but I'm only at the end of the first season so far. Then I saw this:

https://www.thevulcanreporter.com/exclusives/star-trek-deep-space-nine-remaster/

Is this a legit website or is this bullshit? I would think that legit news of a DS9 remaster would be everywhere, as opposed to really only reported on by one site. If it's true, I'll probably wait and continue my watching once the remaster is out.
There are a couple of fan projects to do a DS9 remaster, it's not official though.

HD DAD
Jan 13, 2010

Generic white guy.



Toilet Rascal

FlamingLiberal posted:

There are a couple of fan projects to do a DS9 remaster, it's not official though.

The link says it’s being produced by Secret Hideout, which is Kurtzman’s joint. 99% probably bullshit, but who knows.

nine-gear crow
Aug 10, 2013

low vis




OldSenileGuy posted:

I don't know what the difference is between the two Trek threads so forgive me if this is the wrong thread:

I recently started watching DS9 for the first time. It's ok, but I'm only at the end of the first season so far. Then I saw this:

https://www.thevulcanreporter.com/exclusives/star-trek-deep-space-nine-remaster/

Is this a legit website or is this bullshit? I would think that legit news of a DS9 remaster would be everywhere, as opposed to really only reported on by one site. If it's true, I'll probably wait and continue my watching once the remaster is out.

Looks like it's bullshit, going by some of their past "exclusive" articles. Nothing quite as malicious as sites like We Got This Covered or Bounding Into Comics, but still equally wrong and wishful thinking-based, just in the opposite direction.

Epicurius
Apr 10, 2010


College Slice

HIJK posted:

I'm watching the first Vic episode and its very cute. Could Rene actually play piano?

According to this interview with him:

https://renefiles.com/facts-biography/rene-answers-your-questions/random/

he could not.

Big Mean Jerk
Jan 27, 2009

Well, of course I know him.
He's me.


There’s also a bunch of mistakes in that article. Like when he says Enterprise never got a remaster and won’t because it’s “the most recent non-Kurtzman Star Trek series” (why would that even matter?), even though Enterprise got a big completes series release on Blu several years ago primarily because it was already made and filmed with HD in mind.

HD DS9 (and Voyager) just aren’t going to happen unless some insane billionaire offers to self-fund the entire film remaster and re-edit and recreate every single FX shot, and even then CBS would probably scoff at the projected sales and decline their offer.

Brawnfire
Jul 13, 2004

Listen to Cylindricule!
https://linktr.ee/Cylindricule


Big Mean Jerk posted:

HD DS9 (and Voyager) just aren’t going to happen unless some insane billionaire offers to self-fund the entire film remaster and re-edit and recreate every single FX shot, and even then CBS would probably scoff at the projected sales and decline their offer.

We should tell Notch it would make people like him again, then when he does it tell him to gently caress off and eat old candy

V-Men
Aug 15, 2001

Don't it make your dick bust concrete to be in the same room with two noble, selfless public servants.

Gonz posted:

You can't have a Starfleet without evil Admirals. That's like asking for water to not contain 2 hydrogen atoms.

But Nakamura and Nechayev aren't evil?

MikeJF
Dec 20, 2003






The only way that might be legit and happening is if


quote:

A 4K scan of the original filmed footage will be used for the remaster. Furthermore, the remaster will include new VFX that will be created using AI

Is a misunderstanding of "we'll scan the original masters where they can be used directly, and use AI upscaling on anything else, including all VFX shots".

Big Mean Jerk
Jan 27, 2009

Well, of course I know him.
He's me.


Wouldn’t that process still require total re-edits of every episode ala the TNG remaster? Correct me if I’m wrong, but I thought every finished episode only exists “complete” in video form because of the FX shots? So even if they had the original film masters for all the footage they’d still have to assemble everything with these new VFX shots.

Grand Fromage
Jan 30, 2006

L-l-look at you bar-bartender, a-a pa-pathetic creature of meat and bone, un-underestimating my l-l-liver's ability to metab-meTABolize t-toxins. How can you p-poison a perfect, immortal alcohOLIC?




There are different levels of remaster. My understanding is the TNG one was unusually extensive. I'm not expecting a DS9 one, but after Babylon 5 got a sorta-remaster out of absolutely loving nowhere a few months ago, I wouldn't rule out anything.

MikeJF
Dec 20, 2003






Big Mean Jerk posted:

Wouldn’t that process still require total re-edits of every episode ala the TNG remaster? Correct me if I’m wrong, but I thought every finished episode only exists “complete” in video form because of the FX shots? So even if they had the original film masters for all the footage they’d still have to assemble everything with these new VFX shots.

They'd be re-editing but not re-compositing: any frame with VFX in it would be wholly upscaled, is my guess. They'd basically be scanning in the original complete TV episode, scanning in the film masters in HD, pasting the HD scanned masters over the top where they can, and then performing an AI upscale on the rest of the frames.

(It may be that paramount is planning to scan all the old masters as part of a long-term archival process anyway, since they're getting on in age. If that's the case then it's much more justifiable.)

Hell, it's even possible that if they are just scanning everything in, they have software that can take that archive and automatically match up the frames and paste in the master shots where appropriate without human input.

A bonus to that is that once they've done all of the master replacements that can be done, they can take those frames and the original SD ones and use that to directly train the AI upscaler on DS9 content so it can better handle composite shots. (If it were me doing it I'd use TNG DVD vs HD as a training set as well, which would let it get a handle on space shots. Toss the redone FX from the doco in too, why not.)

MikeJF fucked around with this message at 05:38 on May 4, 2021

jeeves
May 27, 2001

Deranged Psychopathic
Butler Extraordinaire


I thought the issue was that the effects were done on tape even if the actors were done on film— along with compositing issues and stuff.

Gonz
Dec 22, 2009

"Jesus, did I say that? Or just think it? Was I talking? Did they hear me?"


V-Men posted:

But Nakamura and Nechayev aren't evil?

How do we know for sure?!? Nechayev could intentionally microwave fish in the Starfleet HQ break room offscreen!

blastron
Dec 11, 2007

Don't doodle on it!



jeeves posted:

I thought the issue was that the effects were done on tape even if the actors were done on film— along with compositing issues and stuff.

That’s correct. A remaster could start with a high-resolution scan of the film, but that wouldn’t capture any post-production, like VFX, which was all done on tape. It’s impossible to get HD versions of any VFX shots because they never actually existed in high definition. They’d have to be recreated, either by redoing the FX manually or by doing some COMPUTER, ENHANCE bullshit.

Luckily, computers are actually very good at enhancing thanks to advances in machine learning. It’s not perfect, but it definitely cleans things up quite a bit:

https://youtu.be/MqaUdwdFLCU

Some of the solutions people are speculating about above are a combination of using direct film scans for non-FX shots and AI upscales for composited shots. This would still be a ton of work, but less so than recreating every shot manually.

Payndz
Sep 22, 2006

I'm Peter Graves, and I was wondering if you could direct me to the natatorium, as I'm attending a Scuderia Ferrari team-building exercise. Thank you. I'm Peter Graves.


jeeves posted:

I thought the issue was that the effects were done on tape even if the actors were done on film— along with compositing issues and stuff.
My understanding is that live action (including model shots) were done on 35mm film, then transferred to Beta tape (the best-quality format of the era) for editing. Effects like transporters, phasers, forcefields etc were added on a Paintbox or similar digital effects system, and things like Odo's morphs were animated on (probably) SGI workstations and comped in.

Basically, anything from the Beta stage onwards has to be recreated or rezzed-up for HD.

Snow Cone Capone
Jul 30, 2003




I've got the AI-upscaled DS9 (actually, at this point there's at least 3 different versions of the whole series upscaled). It's definitely not as nice as the footage from the documentary, but it's still an incredible experience; that youtube link is a pretty good representation.

I believe that on the version I have the people who did it actually ran the CGI/other SFX scenes through a different upscaler preset than for the live-action stuff, too.

V-Men
Aug 15, 2001

Don't it make your dick bust concrete to be in the same room with two noble, selfless public servants.

Gonz posted:

How do we know for sure?!? Nechayev could intentionally microwave fish in the Starfleet HQ break room offscreen!

There's a certain degree of evil involved with replicating refrigerated fish and then hitting it with a phaser at idk setting .00001

MikeJF
Dec 20, 2003






blastron posted:

Luckily, computers are actually very good at enhancing thanks to advances in machine learning. It’s not perfect, but it definitely cleans things up quite a bit:

https://youtu.be/MqaUdwdFLCU

And as I mentioned before, a proper FX house with decent AI expertise could probably do much better than that. What you're seeing there is basically out-of-the-box general AI video upscaling; a dedicated team could take the AI models from that and then train them on top with the HD footage from the film masters as well as the TNG HD footage, biasing the model to actually have a kind of understanding about what Star Trek stuff looks like and what even these actors and sets are more likely to look like when upscaled.

StashAugustine
Mar 24, 2013

Do not trust in hope- it will betray you! Only faith and hatred sustain.









V-Men posted:

But Nakamura and Nechayev aren't evil?

And Ross only did one illegal political assassination!

John Wick of Dogs
Mar 4, 2017

Only Accused Of STATUTORY Rape

StashAugustine posted:

And Ross only did one illegal political assassination!

He didn't do an assassination, he just got a lady arrested! She was probably just sent to the reman mines!

bull3964
Nov 18, 2000

DO YOU HEAR THAT? THAT'S THE SOUND OF ME PATTING MYSELF ON THE BACK.




DS9 and Voyager are marquee products of a still active and tentpole franchise for CBS/Paramount. Nothing less than a full TNG remaster should be acceptable.

TNG cost about $70k per episode to remaster. Discovery costs $8 mil per episode to make.

You could remaster DS9 and Voyager for less than half a season of Discovery and it absolutely would make up the cost of doing so in new Paramount+ subs.

NOT doing a full remaster is mismanagement of the franchise full stop. Yeah, they didn't recoup cost on TNG but that was more the circumstances around the release (expensive box sets at a time when physical media was declining and fairly quick access to the remaster on streaming platforms.). Now that they have their own platform, they should not have one iota of problem making money.

8one6
May 20, 2012

When in doubt, err on the side of Awesome!



If they released a remastered episode of DS9 once a week I'd be subbed to paramount plus or whatever for years.

bull3964
Nov 18, 2000

DO YOU HEAR THAT? THAT'S THE SOUND OF ME PATTING MYSELF ON THE BACK.




8one6 posted:

If they released a remastered episode of DS9 once a week I'd be subbed to paramount plus or whatever for years.

Yup, same.

They could even spice it up with some behind the scenes stuff or new shot interviews as special features to release alongside.

jeeves
May 27, 2001

Deranged Psychopathic
Butler Extraordinaire


Yeah but GUYS, how would we know in which way Michael Burnam saves the universe this time?

8one6
May 20, 2012

When in doubt, err on the side of Awesome!



With a remaster they could edit her into the background of every episode.

Tighclops
Jan 23, 2008

Unable to deal with it



Grimey Drawer

bull3964 posted:

DS9 and Voyager are marquee products of a still active and tentpole franchise for CBS/Paramount. Nothing less than a full TNG remaster should be acceptable.

TNG cost about $70k per episode to remaster. Discovery costs $8 mil per episode to make.

You could remaster DS9 and Voyager for less than half a season of Discovery and it absolutely would make up the cost of doing so in new Paramount+ subs.

NOT doing a full remaster is mismanagement of the franchise full stop. Yeah, they didn't recoup cost on TNG but that was more the circumstances around the release (expensive box sets at a time when physical media was declining and fairly quick access to the remaster on streaming platforms.). Now that they have their own platform, they should not have one iota of problem making money.

I can't know for sure but I suspect part of the reason why they keep producing all these new shows instead of spending a fraction as much on releasing their old material is because it keeps some important people's friends/kids/acquaintances gainfully employed

FlamingLiberal
Jan 18, 2009

Would you like to play a game?





https://twitter.com/elijahcraan/status/1389594828053286916?s=21

Thom12255
Feb 23, 2013
WHERE THE FUCK IS MY MONEY


bull3964 posted:

DS9 and Voyager are marquee products of a still active and tentpole franchise for CBS/Paramount. Nothing less than a full TNG remaster should be acceptable.

TNG cost about $70k per episode to remaster. Discovery costs $8 mil per episode to make.

You could remaster DS9 and Voyager for less than half a season of Discovery and it absolutely would make up the cost of doing so in new Paramount+ subs.

NOT doing a full remaster is mismanagement of the franchise full stop. Yeah, they didn't recoup cost on TNG but that was more the circumstances around the release (expensive box sets at a time when physical media was declining and fairly quick access to the remaster on streaming platforms.). Now that they have their own platform, they should not have one iota of problem making money.

Wouldn't the remaster od DS9 and Voyager cost way more than TNG on an episode basis due to those shows relying so heavily on CGI when TNG mostly did not.

bull3964
Nov 18, 2000

DO YOU HEAR THAT? THAT'S THE SOUND OF ME PATTING MYSELF ON THE BACK.




Thom12255 posted:

Wouldn't the remaster od DS9 and Voyager cost way more than TNG on an episode basis due to those shows relying so heavily on CGI when TNG mostly did not.

No, not really. DS9 didn't start extensively using CG until later seasons and a lot of voyager is using model shots. Also, there isn't enough VFX in these shows to make them prohibitively expensive to redo. Don't forget, some of the VFX that the TNG team couldn't find the model passes for were recreated in CGI. It's doable within budget.

I mean, using the original model passes isn't exactly free in the first place. You have to composite all the different passes and do cleanup and then add in other elements with CG that were originally painted in video like planets or phaser blasts.

Using the original model passes was about preserving the original as much as possible, it wasn't a huge cost saving move.

Also, all the original digital assets still exist and are usable (at least for DS9).

CG is dirt loving cheap now as well.

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MikeJF
Dec 20, 2003






A couple of days ago I got bored and decided to rip a bunch of assets out of the TNGTMCD and other ones and make them digestible online: it's rushed and probably buggy, but it's still neat to take a look at:

STARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR TREK IN THREE HUNDRED AND SIXTY DEGREES

MikeJF fucked around with this message at 18:38 on May 4, 2021

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