Star Trek: *hits blunt* The higher, the fewerrrrrr

The Something Awful Forums > The Finer Arts > TV IV > Star Trek: *hits blunt* The higher, the fewerrrrrr

Sash!: Mar 16, 2001

I'm just amused that every Alien Wearing Armor, like the Klingons and Cardassians have these elaborate torso pieces, but are apparently just wearing black sweatpants too.

# ? Aug 18, 2022 19:51

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# ? Apr 24, 2024 07:49

Worf: Sep 12, 2017; If only Seth would love me like I love him!

Sash! posted:

I'm just amused that every Alien Wearing Armor, like the Klingons and Cardassians have these elaborate torso pieces, but are apparently just wearing black sweatpants too.

When your opponents wear skants you can get away with sweatpants

# ? Aug 18, 2022 20:12

Arglebargle III: Feb 21, 2006

Guys I just saw a car ad. Wood is back!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HnDtvZXYHgE

# ? Aug 18, 2022 20:21

J33uk: Oct 24, 2005

MikeJF posted:

Actually, that brings up an interesting question: did the dominion force in the Alpha Quadrant have any contact with the Gamma Quadrant Dominion after Sacrifice of Angels and before the finale? Was the female changeling just assuming the Great Link hadn't cured or succumbed to the disease?

I wonder if the Gamma Quadrant Founders sent some poor "pseudo-generational" Jem'Hadar ship to slow boat it at warp to the Alpha Quadrant to see what the hell happened. Or maybe some unlucky Founder to fly there in space jellyfish mode. You could do an interesting analogy to Japanese holdout troops on some island in the Pacific with that plot idea.

# ? Aug 18, 2022 21:45

feedmyleg: Dec 25, 2004

DS9 can be a bit rough for me because Bajorans and their religion are a total snoozefest.

# ? Aug 18, 2022 22:00

Kesper North: Nov 3, 2011; EMERGENCY POWER TO PARTY

Arglebargle III posted:

Guys I just saw a car ad. Wood is back!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HnDtvZXYHgE

My old Betamax(!!!) tapes of TOS episodes recorded off of CBS reruns in the late 1980s include the most amazing scifi-themed ads for the Mitsubishi Starion, a car I found intensely desirable when I was 8 years old as a result of all the buttons and LEDs

# ? Aug 18, 2022 22:03

Eimi: Nov 23, 2013; I will never ~~log off~~shut up.

J33uk posted:

I wonder if the Gamma Quadrant Founders sent some poor "pseudo-generational" Jem'Hadar ship to slow boat it at warp to the Alpha Quadrant to see what the hell happened. Or maybe some unlucky Founder to fly there in space jellyfish mode. You could do an interesting analogy to Japanese holdout troops on some island in the Pacific with that plot idea.

STO did that. The wormhole opens up and out flies the Dominion fleet, who don't recognize any time as having passed. So there's a battle followed by tense negotiations and diplomacy to get them to stand down.

# ? Aug 18, 2022 22:22

bull3964: Nov 18, 2000; DO YOU HEAR THAT? THAT'S THE SOUND OF ME PATTING MYSELF ON THE BACK.

Titmouse has pre-orders up for The Lower Decks T-Shirt club for this season.

# ? Aug 18, 2022 23:00

J33uk: Oct 24, 2005

Eimi posted:

STO did that. The wormhole opens up and out flies the Dominion fleet, who don't recognize any time as having passed. So there's a battle followed by tense negotiations and diplomacy to get them to stand down.

Oh cool! It's kind of a bummer that STO plays the way it does (that said I haven't touched it in a decade) as some of the story ideas I've heard them using are really nifty with just enough goofiness for an MMO.

# ? Aug 18, 2022 23:10

Hunter Noventa: Apr 21, 2010

J33uk posted:

Oh cool! It's kind of a bummer that STO plays the way it does (that said I haven't touched it in a decade) as some of the story ideas I've heard them using are really nifty with just enough goofiness for an MMO.

If you last played a decade ago it's gotten better. Not great, but a lot of the jank has been cut down on.

# ? Aug 19, 2022 00:03

J33uk: Oct 24, 2005

Hunter Noventa posted:

If you last played a decade ago it's gotten better. Not great, but a lot of the jank has been cut down on.

poo poo I think I know what I might disappear into this weekend then. Before college football nukes every Saturday from now till January

# ? Aug 19, 2022 00:33

Farmer Crack-Ass: Jan 2, 2001; this is me posting irl

Mike the TV posted:

The DS9 documentary shows just how awful and masturbatory Moore's writing process is.

It's been a while since I watched it, I don't remember which dillweeds threw various bad ideas out for the "eighth season", I just remember being really disappointed that it was a "haha let's just get together and spitball some crappy ideas for a revival series" bullshitting session instead of a "here's some ideas we either had in mind or came up with since then, about where we could have gone if the show went for an eight season back then" piece.

I remember as a much younger fan being much more stuck on "nuhhhhhh fuk berman & braga" but in the intervening years I've soured a lot more on Ron Moore.

# ? Aug 19, 2022 20:15

Der Kyhe: Jun 25, 2008

I think that Ron Moore doing BSG "to make Voyager/scifi show properly" and then messing it up with angels and rear end-pull of a final episode cliffhanger tell more than enough about the type of person he is.

# ? Aug 19, 2022 20:18

nine-gear crow: Aug 10, 2013

Der Kyhe posted:

I think that Ron Moore doing BSG "to make Voyager/scifi show properly" and then messing it up with angels and rear end-pull of a final episode cliffhanger tell more than enough about the type of person he is.

I listened to a lot of his commentary tracks for various BSG episodes and holy poo poo the dude was, at that point in time at least, incredibly salty about Star Trek, and wanted to make BSG the anti-Star Trek, to the show's detriment at times. This was also the time when he was feuding with Brannon Braga after being tight friends for like 20 years, and they only patched things up for the First Contact blu-ray commentary.

# ? Aug 19, 2022 20:50

Tighclops: Jan 23, 2008; Unable to deal with it; Grimey Drawer

It's kind of darkly amusing to me that the guy's saltiness resulted in a series whose success fundamentally damaged the entire genre of televised science fiction for a decade

# ? Aug 19, 2022 21:02

nine-gear crow: Aug 10, 2013

Tighclops posted:

It's kind of darkly amusing to me that the guy's saltiness resulted in a series whose success fundamentally damaged the entire genre of televised science fiction for a decade

Behold the genesis of woes, Ron Moore's "naturalistic science fiction" ~~manifesto~~ essay, published as BSG's mission statement:

Ronald D. Moore posted:

Battlestar Galactica: Naturalistic Science Fiction or Taking the Opera out of Space Opera

Our goal is nothing less than the reinvention of the science fiction television series. We take as a given the idea that the traditional space opera, with its stock characters, techno-double-talk, bumpy-headed aliens, thespian histrionics, and empty heroics has run its course and a new approach is required. That approach is to introduce realism into what has heretofore been an aggressively unrealistic genre.

Call it "Naturalistic Science Fiction."

This idea, the presentation of a fantastical situation in naturalistic terms, will permeate every aspect of our series:

Visual. The first thing that will leap out at viewers is the dynamic use of the documentary or cinema verite style. Through the extensive use of hand-held cameras, practical lighting, and functional set design, the battlestar Galactica will feel on every level like a real place.

This shift in tone and look cannot be overemphasized. It is our intention to deliver a show that does not look like any other science fiction series ever produced. A casual viewer should for a moment feel like he or she has accidentally surfed onto a "60 Minutes" documentary piece about life aboard an aircraft carrier until someone starts talking about Cylons and battlestars.

That is not to say we're shooting on videotape under fluorescent lights, but we will be striving for a verisimilitude that is sorely lacking in virtually every other science fiction series ever attempted. We're looking for filmic truth, not manufactured "pretty pictures" or the "way cool" factor.

Perhaps nowhere will this be more surprising than in our visual effects shots. Our ships will be treated like real ships that someone had to go out and film with a real camera. That means no 3-D "hero" shots panning and zooming wildly with the touch of a mousepad. The questions we will ask before every VFX shot are things like: "How did we get this shot? Where is the camera? Who's holding it? Is the cameraman in another spacecraft? Is the camera mounted on the wing?" This philosophy will generate images that will present an audience jaded and bored with the same old "Wow -- it's a CGI shot!" with a different texture and a different cinematic language that will force them to re-evaluate their notions of science fiction.

Another way to challenge the audience visually will be our extensive use of the multi-split screen format. By combining multiple angles during dogfights, for example, we will be able to present an entirely new take on what has become a tired and familiar sequence that has not changed materially since George Lucas established it in the mid 1970s.

Finally, our visual style will also capitalize on the possibilities inherent in the series concept itself to deliver unusual imagery not typically seen in this genre. That is, the inclusion of a variety of civilian ships each of which will have unique properties and visual references that can be in stark contrast to the military life aboard Galactica. For example, we have a vessel in our rag-tag fleet which was designed to be a space-going marketplace or "City Walk" environment. The juxtaposition of this high-gloss, sexy atmosphere against the gritty reality of a story for survival will give us more textures and levels to play than in typical genre fare.

Editorial. Our style will avoid the now clich�d MTV fast-cutting while at the same time foregoing Star Trek's somewhat ponderous and lugubrious "master, two-shot, close-up, close-up, two-shot, back to master" pattern. If there is a model here, it would be vaguely Hitchcockian -- that is, a sense of building suspense and dramatic tension through the use of extending takes and long masters which pull the audience into the reality of the action rather than the distract through the use of ostentatious cutting patterns.

Story. We will eschew the usual stories about parallel universes, time-travel, mind-control, evil twins, God-like powers and all the other clich�s of the genre. Our show is first and foremost a drama. It is about people. Real people that the audience can identify with and become engaged in. It is not a show about hardware or bizarre alien cultures. It is a show about us. It is an allegory for our own society, our own people and it should be immediately recognizable to any member of the audience.

Science. Our spaceships don't make noise because there is no noise in space. Sound will be provided from sources inside the ships -- the whine of an engine audible to the pilot for instance. Our fighters are not airplanes and they will not be shackled by the conventions of WWII dogfights. The speed of light is a law and there will be no moving violations.

And finally, Character. This is perhaps, the biggest departure from the science fiction norm. We do not have "the cocky guy" "the fast-talker" "the brain" "the wacky alien sidekick" or any of the other usual characters who populate a space series. Our characters are living, breathing people with all the emotional complexity and contradictions present in quality dramas like "The West Wing" or "The Sopranos." In this way, we hope to challenge our audience in ways that other genre pieces do not. We want the audience to connect with the characters of Galactica as people. Our characters are not super-heroes. They are not an elite. They are everyday people caught up in a enormous cataclysm and trying to survive it as best they can.

They are you and me.

# ? Aug 19, 2022 21:07

Der Kyhe: Jun 25, 2008

For some reason I am getting strong Dan Harmon-vibes here.

# ? Aug 19, 2022 21:13

Tighclops: Jan 23, 2008; Unable to deal with it; Grimey Drawer

Anybody that takes The West Wing seriously needs to be disallowed from producing fiction or having say in anything

Like, I completely get why he would write all of that coming off of Voyager. Having seen where his show ended up it's hard not to snicker at some of it.

# ? Aug 19, 2022 21:15

No Dignity: Oct 15, 2007

I mean BSG was really good up until it wasn't, it was a breath of fresh air and shook up what a televised space opera could be. They just, y'know, should have planned ahead a bit better

# ? Aug 19, 2022 21:17

nine-gear crow: Aug 10, 2013

No Dignity posted:

I mean BSG was really good up until it wasn't, it was a breath of fresh air and shook up what a televised space opera could be. They just, y'know, should have planned ahead a bit better

I will argue it until I die: New Caprica, for as amazing as the arc was in a vaccum, broke the back of the show and was an unforced error in the name of a gee golly audience flooring twist with ONE YEAR LATER with not a single thought to "...and then what?" to it, that painted them into a corner and they decided to get out of it by trying to gnaw through the wall at their back with their teeth.

# ? Aug 19, 2022 21:20

Marshal Radisic: Oct 9, 2012

Powered Descent posted:

If I recall the story correctly, the writers didn't even come up with the idea of the switch until the episode where it was revealed. Siddig in particular was kind of upset about that, since if he'd known it for the previous few episodes he would have LOVED to tweak his performance and put in just the sort of subtle clues you were hoping to find.

Please correct me if I've misremembered.

And immediately following that two-parter was "Doctor Bashir, I Presume?" which made a change to Bashir's backstory so massive that pretty much invalidated every performance decision Siddig had made since Day 1.

Tighclops posted:

It's kind of darkly amusing to me that the guy's saltiness resulted in a series whose success fundamentally damaged the entire genre of televised science fiction for a decade

That may be more a combination of several things, including the rise of superhero media swamping out most every other form of televised sci-fi for a few years. There's also a point to be made that almost every piece of American space sci-fi made from the late 1980s onward was reacting in some way to the cultural juggernaut that was TNG, and nuBSG was the final example of that reaction. By the time nuBSG ended the era of TNG's influence was over, and it took a few years before something new came along to set the example for the next era of shows.

I suppose that's one of the sad things about modern Trek. It doesn't set the tone anymore, but just copies from bigger successes.

# ? Aug 19, 2022 22:41

nine-gear crow: Aug 10, 2013

Marshal Radisic posted:

And immediately following that two-parter was "Doctor Bashir, I Presume?" which made a change to Bashir's backstory so massive that pretty much invalidated every performance decision Siddig had made since Day 1.

That may be more a combination of several things, including the rise of superhero media swamping out most every other form of televised sci-fi for a few years. There's also a point to be made that almost every piece of American space sci-fi made from the late 1980s onward was reacting in some way to the cultural juggernaut that was TNG, and nuBSG was the final example of that reaction. By the time nuBSG ended the era of TNG's influence was over, and it took a few years before something new came along to set the example for the next era of shows.

I suppose that's one of the sad things about modern Trek. It doesn't set the tone anymore, but just copies from bigger successes.

I mean, a lot of sci-fi shows even made today are still judged against the yard stick that is TNG. The Orville desperately wants to be TNG With Jokes. Star Trek: Lower Decks wants to be TNG With Jokes. Star Trek: Picard desperately tried to not be TNG-2 until it just gave in and shamefully became TNG-2 to try and save itself. Star Trek: Discovery is constantly found wonting when measured against TNG. The Expanse wants to be BSG-2, and leans into BSG's same "I'm not TNG, gently caress YOU, Dad!" energy. And so on.

TNG's shadow still looms long across a lot of modern sci-fi.

# ? Aug 19, 2022 22:55

Tighclops: Jan 23, 2008; Unable to deal with it; Grimey Drawer

Marshal Radisic posted:

That may be more a combination of several things, including the rise of superhero media swamping out most every other form of televised sci-fi for a few years. There's also a point to be made that almost every piece of American space sci-fi made from the late 1980s onward was reacting in some way to the cultural juggernaut that was TNG, and nuBSG was the final example of that reaction. By the time nuBSG ended the era of TNG's influence was over, and it took a few years before something new came along to set the example for the next era of shows.

I suppose that's one of the sad things about modern Trek. It doesn't set the tone anymore, but just copies from bigger successes.

All excellent points, can't say I disagree with any of it

# ? Aug 19, 2022 23:27

Arglebargle III: Feb 21, 2006

Holy poo poo Tom Hanks was on board to play Zephram Cochrane in First Contact but he was too busy at the time.

# ? Aug 20, 2022 00:14

dr_rat: Jun 4, 2001

Arglebargle III posted:

Holy poo poo Tom Hanks was on board to play Zephram Cochrane in First Contact but he was too busy at the time.

So glad they ended up with James Cromwell. Such a great actor. Although I'm sure the producers and studio sure as hell weren't.

# ? Aug 20, 2022 00:26

Timby: Dec 23, 2006; Your mother!

Arglebargle III posted:

Holy poo poo Tom Hanks was on board to play Zephram Cochrane in First Contact but he was too busy at the time.

Yeah, he was busy making That Thing You Do!, so it was probably a net positive for all.

# ? Aug 20, 2022 00:32

Delsaber: Oct 1, 2013; This may or may not be correct.

There's a universe in which Eddie Murphy, Tom Hanks, and Benicio Del Toro all made it into their Star Trek movies as planned and I wonder if that universe is doing better or worse than we are

# ? Aug 20, 2022 01:07

Timby: Dec 23, 2006; Your mother!

Delsaber posted:

There's a universe in which Eddie Murphy, Tom Hanks, and Benicio Del Toro all made it into their Star Trek movies as planned and I wonder if that universe is doing better or worse than we are

I've read the Krikes / Meerson script that they wrote for Eddie Murphy. It's loving terrible.

# ? Aug 20, 2022 01:31

Penitent: Jul 8, 2005; The Lemonade Man Can

Timby posted:

I've read the Krikes / Meerson script that they wrote for Eddie Murphy. It's loving terrible.

Do you recall any particular highlights?

I enjoy Eddie Murphy but I think his involvement would have pushed The Voyage Home over the edge into the fully ridiculous and badly dated it.

# ? Aug 20, 2022 01:36

Feldegast42: Oct 29, 2011; COMMENCE THE RITE OF SHITPOSTING

Delsaber posted:

There's a universe in which Eddie Murphy, Tom Hanks, and Benicio Del Toro all made it into their Star Trek movies as planned and I wonder if that universe is doing better or worse than we are

Where's my Tarantino star trak god damnit

# ? Aug 20, 2022 01:46

Timby: Dec 23, 2006; Your mother!

Penitent posted:

Do you recall any particular highlights?

I enjoy Eddie Murphy but I think his involvement would have pushed The Voyage Home over the edge into the fully ridiculous and badly dated it.

The worst part was how over-the-top it was. Murphy's character was written as a high school teacher who was a complete believer in the paranormal and extraterrestrials (think Fox Mulder, amped to 11 because Murphy), who was regarded as a complete crackpot by everyone around him, but then when he encounters the Enterprise crew, he's like, "I KNEW IT! I KNEW IT!"

Just ... ugh on so many levels.

Feldegast42 posted:

Where's my Tarantino star trak god damnit

Officially dead, and the script has been kept under lock and key. It's, like, the one Bad Robot production that hasn't leaked.

# ? Aug 20, 2022 01:47

Powered Descent: Jul 13, 2008; We haven't had that spirit here since 1969.

Timby posted:

The worst part was how over-the-top it was. Murphy's character was written as a high school teacher who was a complete believer in the paranormal and extraterrestrials (think Fox Mulder, amped to 11 because Murphy), who was regarded as a complete crackpot by everyone around him, but then when he encounters the Enterprise crew, he's like, "I KNEW IT! I KNEW IT!"

Just ... ugh on so many levels.

As I recall, an exchange from the Eddie Murphy conspiracy-theory script made it into the final movie verbatim:

GILLIAN: Don't tell me. You're from outer space.
KIRK: No, I'm from Iowa. I only work in outer space.
GILLIAN: Oh, well, I was close. I mean, I knew outer space was going to come into this sooner or later.

Gillian's lines here would have been spoken by Murphy, but instead of being sarcastic and disbelieving, he would have been ecstatic to have his out-there beliefs confirmed -- he knew it, he KNEW it was outer space!

Also, I think at one point the Bird of Prey decloaked over the Super Bowl and everyone except Eddie Murphy thought it was just part of the halftime show.

# ? Aug 20, 2022 02:52

Arglebargle III: Feb 21, 2006

star trek!

# ? Aug 20, 2022 02:53

McSpanky: Jan 16, 2005

Like some kind of... star trek??

# ? Aug 20, 2022 03:17

FlamingLiberal: Jan 18, 2009; Would you like to play a game?

That kind of story gives me major Galaxy Quest vibes. But you know it would be terrible unlike Galaxy Quest.

# ? Aug 20, 2022 03:23

Astroman: Apr 8, 2001

Eddie Murphy in ST IV would have killed the franchise.

No TNG. No JJ. No Nu Trek, including SNW and LDS.

Why?

Let's say Eddie Murphy, at the absolute height of his career, had been brought in to Star Trek. Let's say that it worked, and he was a fantastic addition to the movie. It would still be a huge hit.

But, it would be assumed it was a huge hit because of Eddie Murphy. It would be the "Eddie Murphy Star Trek Movie"--instead of standing on it's own as "The One With The Whales"--the funny movie, the one that took Trek mainstream and everyone loves it. While I'm ride or die for TWOK as GOAT, even I will grudgingly admit most people, especially casual and even non-Trek fans, think IV is the best movie.

Ever since IV, Star Trek has been chasing the dragon in it's movies of wanting to be mainstream. Every single one since has had the press before (except maybe V) of "finally, this is the mainstream movie non-fans can get into. We've jettisoned a lot of the boring stuff and everyone can access THIS movie. Not like the LAST one!" The only one that pulled it off since IV was Star Trek 2009.

In the Murphy Timeline, IV is a fantastic mainstream hit, and Paramount would assume it's because of Eddie Murphy. They would try to bring him back for another one, or get someone else and we'd have to deal with the Major Comedic Guest Star in every subsequent movie. Now maybe one could argue Final Frontier could only be improved by Eddie Murphy, I for one would not want to live in a world where it's him and not Shatner delivering the "What does God need with a starship?" line.

If Trek's future lay in comedy, TNG may not have gotten off the ground. Why would Paramount tv want to do a stuffy, serious scifi drama and ruin their new comedy franchise? That would mean 2-3 more flicks with the TOS cast, and no Bermanga Trek. Maybe a revival in the 2010s, but probably as a wacky zany comedy that completely fails to miss the mark, like the Burton/Depp Dark Shadows debacle. Imagine Owen Wilson and Ben Stiller as Kirk and Spock.

# ? Aug 20, 2022 03:25

dr_rat: Jun 4, 2001

Powered Descent posted:

Gillian's lines here would have been spoken by Murphy, but instead of being sarcastic and disbelieving, he would have been ecstatic to have his out-there beliefs confirmed -- he knew it, he KNEW it was outer space!

I mean if it's 80's Eddie Murphy he definitely would of made sure the lines worked for the character, and absolutely nailed the delivery. Balancing tones would of been pretty bloody difficult though. I mean it could be done but pretty sure it wouldn't of been done.

Edit:

Astroman posted:

Words

So what your saying is you wouldn't of wanted to see First Contact Guest staring Jim Carrey, I don't know as "Silly borg that didn't assimilate right" or something. I say show of hands people, be honest!

dr_rat fucked around with this message at 03:37 on Aug 20, 2022

# ? Aug 20, 2022 03:31

Sir Lemming: Jan 27, 2009; It's a piece of JUNK!

Astroman posted:

Now maybe one could argue Final Frontier could only be improved by Eddie Murphy, I for one would not want to live in a world where it's him and not Shatner delivering the "What does God need with a starship?" line.

You had me until this...

# ? Aug 20, 2022 03:38

Powered Descent: Jul 13, 2008; We haven't had that spirit here since 1969.

Astroman posted:

and we'd have to deal with the Major Comedic Guest Star in every subsequent movie.

Star Trek V, starring Andrew Dice Clay as Sybok.
Star Trek VI, starring Jim Carrey as Gorkon, Chris Farley as General Chang, and Janeane Garofalo as Azetbur.

# ? Aug 20, 2022 03:43

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# ? Apr 24, 2024 07:49

Nostalgia4Infinity: Feb 27, 2007; 10,000 YEARS WASN'T ENOUGH LURKING

God drat Duet is a good episode. I love it whenever I watch it.

# ? Aug 20, 2022 03:53

The Something Awful Forums > The Finer Arts > TV IV > Star Trek: *hits blunt* The higher, the fewerrrrrr

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