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Nessus
Dec 22, 2003

I still can't believe they cast Spock as me. Spock! Can you imagine?

Of course, he was missing a few things.

Are you saying all hew-mons look alike to you? Eh?

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dont even fink about it
Oct 9, 2005

The right reading for this is the one I'm giving.

Baka-nin posted:

I had a look to make sure I wasn't going crazy, and yeah old Bones looks just like creepy old Admiral war criminal.

Old McCoy





Old Admiral dude



guess they recycled the make up.

How does the doctor loving make admiral even after they busted down Kirk while Bones was serving under him.

Ugh my space continuity/irrelevant observations on how dystopian real military works

MikeJF
Dec 20, 2003



Apollodorus posted:

That's a really good point. If we have transporter technology, or even maglev technology, then someone could live in Schenectady but beam/maglev into Manhattan once or twice a week to see Broadway shows, eat at restaurants (presumably there would be a waiting list for reservations, which wouldn't cost anything but you'd have to wait your turn), go to museums, etc.


Yeah. With transporters or very fast on-call aircars I'd imagine that cities would end up mostly dissolving as residential areas and living would be spread across the land in endless villages more than anything else, with people fast-travelling to the cities for social and occupational reasons.

This actually came up when Rodenberry was making TMP: the San Francisco matte painting has much of the city replaced by greenery.

MikeJF fucked around with this message at Jul 6, 2016 around 03:41

tigersklaw
May 8, 2008


Is Nog a dual citizen? I recall that when Nog said he wanted to join Starfleet, Sisko said he would need a recommendation from an officer cuz at the time he wasn't a Federation citizen. Obviously he got it, graduated from the Academy and so on. He fights for the Federation in the Dominion War and never seems to care about being a Ferengi again. How does that work? Did he become a citizen later and I just missed it?

Cojawfee
May 31, 2006
I think the US is dumb for not using Celsius

You don't really even need cities for social gathering. With cargo transporters and endless energy, you could have a pop-up bar or restaurant anywhere in the world.

Apollodorus
Feb 13, 2010

TEST YOUR MIGHT


tigersklaw posted:

Is Nog a dual citizen? I recall that when Nog said he wanted to join Starfleet, Sisko said he would need a recommendation from an officer cuz at the time he wasn't a Federation citizen. Obviously he got it, graduated from the Academy and so on. He fights for the Federation in the Dominion War and never seems to care about being a Ferengi again. How does that work? Did he become a citizen later and I just missed it?

I believe RDM or maybe ISB said he was probably a Federation citizen by season...6?

edit: here it is - http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/...und_information

MikeJF
Dec 20, 2003



Cojawfee posted:

You don't really even need cities for social gathering. With cargo transporters and endless energy, you could have a pop-up bar or restaurant anywhere in the world.

Just attach engines to your house and keep the party going forever.

Apollodorus
Feb 13, 2010

TEST YOUR MIGHT


MikeJF posted:

Just attach engines to your house and keep the party going forever.

You mean like the Night Crew?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G4ApQrbhQp8

MikeJF
Dec 20, 2003




I was going Life, the Universe, and Everything, but sure, why not.

Knormal
Nov 11, 2001



Nap Ghost

MikeJF posted:

Yeah. With transporters or very fast on-call aircars I'd imagine that cities would end up mostly dissolving as residential areas and living would be spread across the land in endless villages more than anything else, with people fast-travelling to the cities for social and occupational reasons.

This actually came up when Rodenberry was making TMP: the San Francisco matte painting has much of the city replaced by greenery.
Not to mention you wouldn't need to devote huge tracts of land to farming, ranching, and the like with replicators. You could fill the Midwest and similar areas with tract housing or skyscrapers, alongside whatever areas they set aside for nature preserves. Or if they need all the space for people, just shove all the buffalo and sage grouse in a holodeck and call it a preserve.

Astroman
Apr 8, 2001


Gammatron 64 posted:

I just watched the one where Ensign Kim's girlfriend comes back from the dead as a Kobali. I kinda liked that one because she was kinda cute when they gave her some hair, even though she's still a living corpse. As per usual, one of Voyager's guest stars is more interesting and likable than the actual cast and I was just wishing she was a main character.


I hate that episode with the fury of a thousand suns.

If that had been a main character, Janeway would have mowed down the entire Delta Quadrant to save her and bring her back. Instead, she's like "eh, whatever" and lets one of her crew go off to become an alien for REASONS. A crewmember whose dead body was hijacked by an alien race and brought back with all her memories intact.

"Dear Ensign Mary Sue's Mother,

I regret to inform you that your daughter died in the line of duty. She was brought back to life by some aliens, but we decided to let them keep her. Them's the breaks I guess!

Captain Kathryn Janeway, Commanding Officer, USS Voyager"

Cojawfee
May 31, 2006
I think the US is dumb for not using Celsius

Wasn't the point that over time the other girl's memories would take over and that's what happened?

MikeJF
Dec 20, 2003



Knormal posted:

Not to mention you wouldn't need to devote huge tracts of land to farming, ranching, and the like with replicators. You could fill the Midwest and similar areas with tract housing or skyscrapers, alongside whatever areas they set aside for nature preserves. Or if they need all the space for people, just shove all the buffalo and sage grouse in a holodeck and call it a preserve.

Plus in TNG they were getting ready to raise a new continent in the middle of the Atlantic.

The current global population density is about 47/sq km or 120/sq mile. They'd probably be able to spread out so much that lots of the Earth would approach that, though I imagine a village approach would be popular.

MikeJF fucked around with this message at Jul 6, 2016 around 06:05

OtherworldlyInvader
Feb 10, 2005

The X-COM project did not deliver the universe's ultimate cup of coffee. You have failed to save the Earth.




MikeJF posted:

Yeah. With transporters or very fast on-call aircars I'd imagine that cities would end up mostly dissolving as residential areas and living would be spread across the land in endless villages more than anything else, with people fast-travelling to the cities for social and occupational reasons.

This actually came up when Rodenberry was making TMP: the San Francisco matte painting has much of the city replaced by greenery.

De-urbanizing the cities would be the greatest environmental disaster in human history, even with 100% clean energy, transportation, and waste disposal.

Paradoxish
Dec 19, 2003

Will you stop going crazy in there?

Apollodorus posted:

That's a really good point. If we have transporter technology, or even maglev technology, then someone could live in Schenectady but beam/maglev into Manhattan once or twice a week to see Broadway shows, eat at restaurants (presumably there would be a waiting list for reservations, which wouldn't cost anything but you'd have to wait your turn), go to museums, etc.

It's actually funny that Sisko's dad's restaurant is always the catalyst for these discussions, since the episodes where it's featured actually kind of implicitly address this point. Sisko is spending his days at Starfleet Command, in San Francisco. He then goes and spends his evenings with his dad, in New Orleans. Location doesn't matter nearly as much when you can travel anywhere instantaneously at little or no cost to yourself. Yeah, there are still going to be more or less desirable locations, but not for the reasons that exist today. Having a restaurant in the middle of Bumfuck, Nowheresville isn't going to prevent you from getting customers, so having no recourse when the government tells you that you can't have that sweet downtown location this year isn't really a big deal. You can have a single, highly urbanized street in the middle of nowhere if you wanted to.

Seriously, if Star Trek has any problem, it's that the Federation's society and economy are too recognizable.

Paradoxish fucked around with this message at Jul 6, 2016 around 07:31

counterfeitsaint
Feb 26, 2010

I'm a girl, and you're
gnomes, and it's like
what? Yikes.

Earth is really a barren, polluted, Matrix-esque hellscape, but everything, including what remains if nature, is in giant holodecks, like that one from Insurrection. A fake image is projected for any ships that happen to visit.

Payndz
Sep 22, 2006

They smelled of pubs, and Wormwood Scrubs, and too many right-wing meetings.

So I twatted them with a magic yo-yo. Because, hell, why not?


Astroman posted:

I hate that episode with the fury of a thousand suns.

If that had been a main character, Janeway would have mowed down the entire Delta Quadrant to save her and bring her back. Instead, she's like "eh, whatever" and lets one of her crew go off to become an alien for REASONS. A crewmember whose dead body was hijacked by an alien race and brought back with all her memories intact.

"Dear Ensign Mary Sue's Mother,

I regret to inform you that your daughter died in the line of duty. She was brought back to life by some aliens, but we decided to let them keep her. Them's the breaks I guess!

Captain Kathryn Janeway, Commanding Officer, USS Voyager"


Janeway doesn't give a poo poo about any non-main-cast crewperson. Poor Joe Carey almost made it to the end of the series (only for his epitaph from Janeway to be "Turns out exploring the galaxy isn't worth risking a single life. Welp, on we go in our exploration vessel!"), but when Future Janeway comes back in time in 'Endgame' does she arrive a week or so earlier to warn her past self that he's about to die needlessly at the hands of some stupid whiny assholes? Nope, it's all about Seven!

Nessus
Dec 22, 2003

I still can't believe they cast Spock as me. Spock! Can you imagine?

Of course, he was missing a few things.

OtherworldlyInvader posted:

De-urbanizing the cities would be the greatest environmental disaster in human history, even with 100% clean energy, transportation, and waste disposal.
Yeah, my own point was more that the inherent desirability of "Manhattan" has to do with situations which are not necessarily valid any longer, so you could in fact house most of Earth's population in commodious arcologies, perhaps buried underground like in my Japanese animes or simply concentrated somewhere. (Maybe this is the point of the Atlantis project: mass housing in an ecologically non-important area.)

This doesn't mean you wouldn't still have areas like that, but with the transporter you can go "visit" Manhattan at will, or at worst, with some degree of transporter credit rationing. But if you want to sell your statues or have an art gathering that could be almost anywhere.


counterfeitsaint posted:

Earth is really a barren, polluted, Matrix-esque hellscape, but everything, including what remains if nature, is in giant holodecks, like that one from Insurrection. A fake image is projected for any ships that happen to visit.
What if it's all holodecks, man? What if that's why Q is so powerful? But what if Q himself... Is also in a holodeck?

MikeJF
Dec 20, 2003



Nessus posted:

(Maybe this is the point of the Atlantis project: mass housing in an ecologically non-important area.)

I'd love it if Trek 2017 visits Earth and the entire moon is enclosed in a bubble and the surface is a verdant paradise.

FlamingLiberal
Jan 18, 2009

DAMMIT WESLEY!!!


Payndz posted:

Janeway doesn't give a poo poo about any non-main-cast crewperson. Poor Joe Carey almost made it to the end of the series (only for his epitaph from Janeway to be "Turns out exploring the galaxy isn't worth risking a single life. Welp, on we go in our exploration vessel!"), but when Future Janeway comes back in time in 'Endgame' does she arrive a week or so earlier to warn her past self that he's about to die needlessly at the hands of some stupid whiny assholes? Nope, it's all about Seven!
That and Tuvok since in the timeline where Voyager takes many years to get home he gets Space Alzheimer's

Arglebargle III
Feb 21, 2006



The moon will never be a nice place to live. 14 days of sun and 14 days of night? Yuck.

thexerox123
Aug 17, 2007



Arglebargle III posted:

The moon will never be a nice place to live. 14 days of sun and 14 days of night? Yuck.

They could probably create artificial day/night cycles and use the holodeck like they do on starships.

Astroman
Apr 8, 2001


Cojawfee posted:

Wasn't the point that over time the other girl's memories would take over and that's what happened?


Imagine if it's been Tom Paris? She'd have found a way to technobabble him back I'm sure.


Arglebargle III posted:

The moon will never be a nice place to live. 14 days of sun and 14 days of night? Yuck.

Same with Mars. It's no place to raise a kid, that's for sure. Too cold I hear.

sunday at work
Apr 6, 2011

"Man is the animal that thinks something is wrong."


So are we back around to the question of why anyone ever leaves their personal holodeck?

Gammatron 64
Nov 28, 2007

Die-cast construction.
It's a lost art.


Astroman posted:

I hate that episode with the fury of a thousand suns.

If that had been a main character, Janeway would have mowed down the entire Delta Quadrant to save her and bring her back. Instead, she's like "eh, whatever" and lets one of her crew go off to become an alien for REASONS. A crewmember whose dead body was hijacked by an alien race and brought back with all her memories intact.

"Dear Ensign Mary Sue's Mother,

I regret to inform you that your daughter died in the line of duty. She was brought back to life by some aliens, but we decided to let them keep her. Them's the breaks I guess!

Captain Kathryn Janeway, Commanding Officer, USS Voyager"



Well... the whole point of the episode is that she wasn't really Ensign Ballard anymore. She had some of her memories, and was recycled from her remains, but wasn't really the same person. She couldn't remember her father and thought in Kobali. Ultimately, she decided to go back to the Kobali. Janeway and Kim were more than willing to blow up the Kobali ships with her new family on them.

The real problem with that episode is if you can't reproduce normally... why resurrect corpses of other species to reproduce? Why not use the dead of your own species? And while you're at it, why not just make clones?

MikeJF posted:

I'd love it if Trek 2017 visits Earth and the entire moon is enclosed in a bubble and the surface is a verdant paradise.

It would be cool if Star Trek had a bunch of Gundam-esque orbital space colonies around Earth. Mostly because they look cool. It's a neat image to look up and instead of seeing the sky, you see more ground with some upside-down people on it. It's kind of surreal but still physically possible. Star Trek wouldn't have to make rotating habitats like these because they have artificial gravity technology, but they just look cool.



A few days ago I was thinking about what a future Enterprise should be like, and I got a cool idea that's kinda similar. You know how the Enterprise-D was supposed to be a "city in space" but really doesn't come across as that? Well, take that concept and take it a few steps further.

Okay, so starfleet ships have a saucer section. Now imagine literal cities and forests on the top and bottom of that saucer section. They're covered by a dome made out of a futuristic material that is normally transparent, but can become opaque when the need arises, giving the ship a more "traditional" look. During day cycles the saucer is opaque and a holographic sky is projected on the dome. At "night", it becomes transparent and you see space around you. Sandwiched in between the two cities on top and the bottom of the saucer is a middle section that always remains opaque and has more typical starship places like laboratories, sickbay, cargo bays, etc. Maybe the bridge is in this middle portion, or its atop a column in the middle of the dome. The rest of the ship has no real "windows" - walls just become transparent when someone wants them to be.

WickedHate
Jul 31, 2013

by Lowtax


Something I just realized, why is it called a holodeck even when it's not a deck on a ship?

GreenNight
Feb 19, 2006
Turning the light on the darkest places, you and I know we got to face this now. We got to face this now.

WickedHate posted:

Something I just realized, why is it called a holodeck even when it's not a deck on a ship?

Why do you drive in parkways and park in driveways?!?!?!?!

Data Graham
Dec 28, 2009



Quark knew better.

After The War
Apr 12, 2005

I fought in
the Old Revolution
on the side of
the Ghosts and the King


Baka-nin posted:

The Federations Oliver North, oh wait that's old McCoy, not that really old Admiral that got really young, then really, really young, Nevermind.

I love that they'd originally wanted that character to be Kirk - that the consequences of the stupid TOS Cold War politics would come back to bite him in the rear end and by killing him off they'd move out from under their predecessor's shadow... like officers on a Klingon warship.

Early TNG writers had some balls before Roddenberry stomped all over everything.

Pikestaff
Feb 17, 2013

Live fast
Die young
Bad mages do it well


WickedHate posted:

Something I just realized, why is it called a holodeck even when it's not a deck on a ship?

Clearly DS9 had it right with holosuites.

Farmer Crack-Ass
Jan 2, 2001

I, too, have lost a Kingdom.


Gaz-L posted:

On the other hand, doesn't she just not appear in The Measure Of A Man, probably because they realised that she'd be the villain in that story?

She appears briefly, at Data's going-away party.


Also, by the time Peak Performance rolls around, she tries to give him a pep talk, and then goes to the Captain when she can't convince Data to stop moping because she's concerned about him. If she didn't care about him or space-hated him or whatever, she would have just sat back and let him fail.


After The War posted:

I love that they'd originally wanted that character to be Kirk - that the consequences of the stupid TOS Cold War politics would come back to bite him in the rear end and by killing him off they'd move out from under their predecessor's shadow... like officers on a Klingon warship.

Early TNG writers had some balls before Roddenberry stomped all over everything.

I've heard that story before, but I haven't yet seen a source for it.

Data Graham
Dec 28, 2009



Pikestaff posted:

Clearly DS9 had it right with holosuites.

This is how I know everyone either has me on ignore, or else I'm phase-shifted

Baka-nin
Jan 25, 2015



After The War posted:

I love that they'd originally wanted that character to be Kirk - that the consequences of the stupid TOS Cold War politics would come back to bite him in the rear end and by killing him off they'd move out from under their predecessor's shadow... like officers on a Klingon warship.

Early TNG writers had some balls before Roddenberry stomped all over everything.

Yeah that would be a pretty good concept provided they ditched that awful and useless de-aging gimmick. Too short a season is probably the most glaring example of two plots that have nothing to do wit each other being crammed into the same episode. It would be a nice sequel to TOS a Private Little War where Kirk was considering a proxy war with the Klingons.

I honestly think Admiral Jameson, is probably the most evil Federation character Star Trek has ever had on television. All the other characters like the Admiral who leads a coup in DS9 had reasons for their actions, fear of the Dominion, the need for magic health radiation etc. Or were controlled by alien neck tics. But Jameson just deliberately escalated a war for forty years because of his warped interpretation of the PD and then covered it all up.

Had the episode bothered to focus on that it'd probably be up there with the Siege of AR-558 instead of typical early TNG weirdness.

Big Mean Jerk
Jan 27, 2009

MENTALLY
DEFEATED


We also could have gotten the Kirk and Riker fight that the world truly deserved.

dont even fink about it
Oct 9, 2005

The right reading for this is the one I'm giving.

Baka-nin posted:

Yeah that would be a pretty good concept provided they ditched that awful and useless de-aging gimmick. Too short a season is probably the most glaring example of two plots that have nothing to do wit each other being crammed into the same episode. It would be a nice sequel to TOS a Private Little War where Kirk was considering a proxy war with the Klingons.

I honestly think Admiral Jameson, is probably the most evil Federation character Star Trek has ever had on television. All the other characters like the Admiral who leads a coup in DS9 had reasons for their actions, fear of the Dominion, the need for magic health radiation etc. Or were controlled by alien neck tics. But Jameson just deliberately escalated a war for forty years because of his warped interpretation of the PD and then covered it all up.

Had the episode bothered to focus on that it'd probably be up there with the Siege of AR-558 instead of typical early TNG weirdness.

While I generally hate Roddenberry's insistence on making Star Trek a completely boring utopia and note that the movies where he is least involved are the best, I am OK with him protecting Kirk's character from "actually he's a dumb rear end in a top hat, guilty of war crimes!"

Big Mean Jerk
Jan 27, 2009

MENTALLY
DEFEATED


Young TOS Kirk is a dumb rear end in a top hat though. Movie Kirk is a relatively competent dude.

WickedHate
Jul 31, 2013

by Lowtax


Plus, if fan reaction was already bad in the first season, there would have been riots and lynching if that plot point came to pass. Burning down the original beloved series and salting the earth isn't that endearing.

Instant Sunrise
Apr 12, 2007


Keep the skies clear for me.




Grimey Drawer

I have a copy of the Phase II pilot script "In Thy Image" that eventually got adapted into TMP. It's description of Earth is 1000% Roddenberry.

Kirk does down to Golden Gate Park to pick up Disco Beard McCoy and Earth is described as being Garden of Eden-like, with the script specifically calling out for people to be walking around who would implied to be naked, as well as animals like Leopards that are somehow tamed and around people like it isn't a big deal, which is where Kirk finds McCoy, taking care of one of leopards.

OneThousandMonkeys posted:

While I generally hate Roddenberry's insistence on making Star Trek a completely boring utopia and note that the movies where he is least involved are the best, I am OK with him protecting Kirk's character from "actually he's a dumb rear end in a top hat, guilty of war crimes!"

Behold the quintessential devil of these matters, James T. Kirk renegade and terrorist!

EDIT:

WickedHate posted:

Plus, if fan reaction was already bad in the first season, there would have been riots and lynching if that plot point came to pass. Burning down the original beloved series and salting the earth isn't that endearing.

Going by the handful of Usenet posts I've been able to dig up from 1987, people really didn't like TNG at first. Which is admittedly understandable when you look at the first 4 episodes of the series.

Instant Sunrise fucked around with this message at Jul 6, 2016 around 17:16

Tighclops
Jan 23, 2008

PARTY ON, GARTH OF IZAR


Instant Sunrise posted:

I have a copy of the Phase II pilot script "In Thy Image" that eventually got adapted into TMP. It's description of Earth is 1000% Roddenberry.

Kirk does down to Golden Gate Park to pick up Disco Beard McCoy and Earth is described as being Garden of Eden-like, with the script specifically calling out for people to be walking around who would implied to be naked, as well as animals like Leopards that are somehow tamed and around people like it isn't a big deal, which is where Kirk finds McCoy, taking care of one of leopards.

That's awesome. Star Trek should have more of that and less "we have to fight the space terrorists to protect Our Way of Life"

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Big Mean Jerk
Jan 27, 2009

MENTALLY
DEFEATED


That's some dumb Logan's Run poo poo right there.

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