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HD DAD posted:Yeah, TNG is very character based, so you enjoy watching whatever they get up to, even if the plot is a little meh. Voyager is the exact opposite, where the characters are mostly fairly empty vessels to move the plot along. The creep in charge of this show did everything he could to ensure the misery of most actors, especially actresses, plus directorially mandated everyone not show emotion (didn't want to outshine aliens in makeup who couldn't act as much with their faces due to the prosthetics). Voyager still my favourite Trek, but it's hard to ignore it's faults a lot of the time. Still, if you love DS9 you should really be nice to Voyager. Literally the only reason DS9 got to be good is that Voyager kept Berman distracted long enough people could make actually good Trek when he wasn't looking. thotsky posted:Not only is it full of liberal wank-material about the "power of the free press", but it makes no sense as TNG has established television as a media died a long time ago, Wait, really? It definitely comes back in Picard though, seem to recall some TV moments in that? What does it mean TV went away, like, is it just saying they use "holo tv" or some poo poo now? For starters, no art medium ever really disappears, unless everyone who knows how to work in that medium dies or is killed with no record and no interest in recreating. People clearly have ways to record videos and transmit them, there's obviously a trek youtube in their world and software to edit videos etc. What was the original intention of TNG claiming TV doesn't exist anymore? Were they saying everyone just gets into videogames and holodeck poo poo instead, or was it supposed to be some silly thing like "oh everyone just reads fine ancient literature, studies xenonanoneuroscience, or watch Tribble Kabuki performances - they're all too smaht for televishion"
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May 1, 2021 17:57
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Khanstant posted:Still, if you love DS9 you should really be nice to Voyager. No
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May 1, 2021 18:02
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Khanstant posted:What was the original intention of TNG claiming TV doesn't exist anymore? Were they saying everyone just gets into videogames and holodeck poo poo instead, or was it supposed to be some silly thing like "oh everyone just reads fine ancient literature, studies xenonanoneuroscience, or watch Tribble Kabuki performances - they're all too smaht for televishion" I would assume World War 3 stopped a lot of the decadent stuff like TV and baseball. And the arrival of pointy eared know-it-alls in their space ships.
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May 1, 2021 18:02
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Khanstant posted:What was the original intention of TNG claiming TV doesn't exist anymore? Were they saying everyone just gets into videogames and holodeck poo poo instead, or was it supposed to be some silly thing like "oh everyone just reads fine ancient literature, studies xenonanoneuroscience, or watch Tribble Kabuki performances - they're all too smaht for televishion" Well that was back when TNG was showing how advanced future humans were by rejecting all the normal stuff of middle-class life in America.
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May 1, 2021 18:03
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I believe Behr has always denied the “Berman didn’t pay attention to DS9” story and in fact has mentioned several times that Berman was always around and willing to go to bat for DS9. It’s Hollywood though so of course that could always be one producer sticking up for another by lying their rear end off.
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May 1, 2021 18:06
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Khanstant posted:Wait, really? It definitely comes back in Picard though, seem to recall some TV moments in that? What does it mean TV went away, like, is it just saying they use "holo tv" or some poo poo now? For starters, no art medium ever really disappears, unless everyone who knows how to work in that medium dies or is killed with no record and no interest in recreating. People clearly have ways to record videos and transmit them, there's obviously a trek youtube in their world and software to edit videos etc. They don't really say what replaced it, seemingly treating a similar question from one of the frozen people in the TNG episode "The Neutral Zone" with bemusement. Since Riker is the one smirking at the question we can probably surmise that for him the answer is casual sex. What we do see other people do for entertainment is socializing, engaging in sports or artistic pursuits. Music and literature appear to still be popular. You know, healthy enlightened choices and all that. Holodecks are a relatively new phenomenon and not a direct replacement for television, and it seems telling that we get multiple episodes about escalating and unhealthy uses of the holodeck. People who do appear to have some knowledge of television are mostly 20th century enthusiasts. I choose to consider episodes breaking with this reading as being non-canon oversights or bad, so it's not surprising if Picard has some. thotsky fucked around with this message at 18:48 on May 1, 2021 |
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May 1, 2021 18:41
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A future where no one knows what's going on in the universe or their government seems pretty unrealistic and/or super dystopian. TV as a medium might not be exactly it, but not having some sort of recorded broadcast of current events is pretty much guaranteed to exist. Have it be a hologram I guess, and also subspace radio and newspaper pads, but it's gotta be there.
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May 1, 2021 18:59
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BonHair posted:A future where no one knows what's going on in the universe or their government seems pretty unrealistic and/or super dystopian. TV as a medium might not be exactly it, but not having some sort of recorded broadcast of current events is pretty much guaranteed to exist. Have it be a hologram I guess, and also subspace radio and newspaper pads, but it's gotta be there. Presumably people are reading at least as many reports as they're writing. We see those all the time. thotsky fucked around with this message at 19:06 on May 1, 2021 |
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May 1, 2021 19:02
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I think we can also speculate that most people don't have the same urge to stay informed about or distracted by galactic goings-on, seeing as their material needs are taken care of. There are multiple examples of colonies and outposts being pleasantly surprised by a federation ship stopping by, and asking for news of earth etc. Maybe people mostly just care about their local community and chosen field or special interest. Sort of an anarchist approach to things.
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May 1, 2021 19:07
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thotsky posted:I think we can also speculate that most people don't have the same urge to stay informed about or distracted by galactic goings-on, seeing as their material needs are taken care of. Yeah, that's the bit that seems dystopian to me. People just being content that everything is going fine, no need to worry is super sketchy even in a scenario where there aren't Romulans, Klingons, Borg and Cardassians, not to mention changelings and species 8472 who actively infiltrated the Federation (I forget if 8472 actually did the infiltration, but that's beside the point). People should definitely have some sort of knowledge of what's going on. Especially since we know that the people in power get up to some sketchy stuff. Also those reports are presumably written to an internal Starfleet audience. Even if they're not classified, they're bound to be full of boring stuff that a general audience wouldn't care about. You need someone to digest it for mass audiences.
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May 1, 2021 19:30
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One person's dystopia is another person's utopia, I guess. I maintain that starfleet members are a special kind of crazy, which can sometimes be useful, but the true utopia is that lived by the mostly carefree people back on earth.
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May 1, 2021 19:35
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BonHair posted:Yeah, that's the bit that seems dystopian to me. People just being content that everything is going fine, no need to worry is super sketchy even in a scenario where there aren't Romulans, Klingons, Borg and Cardassians, not to mention changelings and species 8472 who actively infiltrated the Federation (I forget if 8472 actually did the infiltration, but that's beside the point). People should definitely have some sort of knowledge of what's going on. Especially since we know that the people in power get up to some sketchy stuff. Perhaps you’d like to join this like-minded group of concerned citizens I’m a part of who also believe that the citizens of the Federation need to be protected from a galaxy and it would be better if they don’t know how so they can continue to believe in utopia. This is a section 31 reference.
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May 1, 2021 20:21
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thotsky posted:One person's dystopia is another person's utopia, I guess. I maintain that starfleet members are a special kind of crazy, which can sometimes be useful, but the true utopia is that lived by the mostly carefree people back on earth. This is literally how Roddenberry describes Earth and Starfleet in his TMP novelization.
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May 1, 2021 20:33
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HD DAD posted:Yeah, TNG is very character based, so you enjoy watching whatever they get up to, even if the plot is a little meh. This is the one thing I hope they realize with Strange New Worlds. Give me a strong cast and balance the plots around them. It's one of the strengths of DC's Legends of Tomorrow is that you can pair up any two cast members and it'll be a lot of fun to watch if it's the C-plot to an episode.
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May 1, 2021 21:33
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Thom12255 posted:Well that was back when TNG was showing how advanced future humans were by rejecting all the normal stuff of middle-class life in America. I'm just glad that they never put their foot so far in their mouth that it came out of the back of their head by having someone snuggly declare that people prefer more active participation in their entertainment, like holodecks and performing themselves in the theater. Probably Picard. Who we promptly see passively watching someone's play in the next episode.
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May 2, 2021 00:41
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Sash! posted:snuggly declare 
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May 2, 2021 00:47
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Sash! posted:I'm just glad that they never put their foot so far in their mouth that it came out of the back of their head by having someone snuggly declare that people prefer more active participation in their entertainment, like holodecks and performing themselves in the theater. Probably Picard. I am convinced that star trek recreation was developed by those drama kids in college who are convinced they understand how people like to interact with their entertainment. Meanwhile for the comp sci crowd most of them are like "yeah i'd be in the holodeck being a superman"
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May 2, 2021 00:51
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Continuing my watch-through of VOY S3 Sacred Ground- This is the Janeway 'not everything can be solved with science' episode. I guess the writers wanted to challenge Janeway's background as a scientist with this episode, but it's just very dull and the fact that the solution to Kes' illness is 'put her back into the same energy field that caused her to go into a coma in the first place' is some dumb poo poo. There's a good chunk of the episode devoted to these 'trials' that Janeway has to go through to supposedly speak to the planet's gods, but then it turns out in a twist that this was all in Janeway's mind because she EXPECTED those kinds of trials. So a good 10-15 minutes of the episode are totally pointless. I will probably forget this episode even exists soon. Future's End Pts 1/2- I believe this is the first major time travel episode Voyager does, and it's kind of like DS9's Past Tense, in that the crew's appearance in the past causes temporal issues. The main consequence of this episode is The Doctor getting his mobile emitter. It's an average two-parter, but it feels full of padding because every time the crew seemingly stops the Bill Gates analogue character, he somehow weasels out of his predicament for plot reasons because otherwise the episode would be very quick. This is one of a very small handful of episodes shot on location for this show up to this point so it does stand out in that respect. Warlord- A fun Kes episode, where they actually give Jennifer Lien something to do. She definitely shows more acting range here than she is ever allowed to do with Kes normally, but unfortunately she doesn't get many more chances before the character gets written off the show. The Q and the Grey- This would be a much better Q episode if Q wasn't trying to get into Janeway's pants constantly. I enjoy John DeLancie as Q, but the whole beginning of this episode is just very cringey now in a rewatch. I appreciate that this was an actual follow-up to an earlier episode of the show, but the concept is just not good. Macrocosm- I remember enjoying this episode years back when I first saw it, and it still holds up. In the vein of a TNG episode like Starship Mine, Janeway has to almost single-handedly retake her ship from an opposing force. The CGI doesn't really look very good anymore, which isn't surprising, but it's still fun. Fair Trade- Honestly I don't see why Janeway would keep Neelix around after all the poo poo he pulls in this episode. I felt like Wix turned back towards doing the right thing a little too easily when Neelix was ready to turn himself in. I read that this episode was going to contain a final scene regarding Neelix and Kes' relationship ending but it had been cut. They kind of broke up in 'Warlord' and a scene was shot that was intended to be the resolution to that for this episode but they had to cut it out. I feel like Janeway forgave him too easily, not to mention that we don't get any kind of resolution to Chakotay and Paris being arrested for Neelix's crimes.
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May 2, 2021 01:02
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thotsky posted:Presumably people are reading at least as many reports as they're writing. We see those all the time. plus isn't Jake a reporter for an official Federation News Service?
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May 2, 2021 01:25
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BonHair posted:Yeah, that's the bit that seems dystopian to me. People just being content that everything is going fine, no need to worry is super sketchy even in a scenario where there aren't Romulans, Klingons, Borg and Cardassians, not to mention changelings and species 8472 who actively infiltrated the Federation (I forget if 8472 actually did the infiltration, but that's beside the point). People should definitely have some sort of knowledge of what's going on. Worf, at Risa. ___________ / 
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May 2, 2021 01:33
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Remember that the "no TV" was a line written by somebody in the late 80s. There was no internet, or youtube, or netflix. I gotta imagine that what they meant by it was that it no longer existed in the form of television networks. You couldn't plop down on a couch and turn the dedicated appliance on to channel 5. But if you went to one of the computers and asked it to display MacGyver, season 1, episode 5, it would do it, assuming the footage still existed. Old television shows would be a super niche form of entertainment, whereas people making random videos like a future youtube could be more popular, but wouldn't be considered TV.
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May 2, 2021 02:59
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"We've evolved past television and its mushbrain effect on the masses: a world building plot point in my television show for the mushbrained masses" feels like a big Roddenberry's Box rule, yes.
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May 2, 2021 06:49
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Axe-man posted:Meanwhile for the comp sci crowd most of them are like "yeah i'd be in the holodeck being a superman" ok barclay
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May 2, 2021 10:37
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Barclay is my spiritual animal.
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May 2, 2021 11:16
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BonHair posted:Yeah, that's the bit that seems dystopian to me. People just being content that everything is going fine, no need to worry is super sketchy even in a scenario where there aren't Romulans, Klingons, Borg and Cardassians, not to mention changelings and species 8472 who actively infiltrated the Federation (I forget if 8472 actually did the infiltration, but that's beside the point). People should definitely have some sort of knowledge of what's going on. Especially since we know that the people in power get up to some sketchy stuff. I don't think it's dystopian to not be paranoid about the news. Now, it might make it difficult to relate, which is fair. But 'dystopian' should, I think, not end up as a synonym for 'bad, or at least, negative to me.' e: Also isn't there at least a Federation News Service, I remember Jake writes for that or something with a similar name Nessus fucked around with this message at 12:00 on May 2, 2021 |
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May 2, 2021 11:55
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Lower Decks handled that well with people sitting in a bar talking about the latest insane poo poo the Enterprise was getting up to.
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May 2, 2021 12:56
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I heard an ad on the radio for "artesian coffee" and thought of Janeway saying, "There's coffee in that aquifer!"
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May 2, 2021 17:13
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CPColin posted:I heard an ad on the radio for "artesian coffee" and thought of Janeway saying, "There's coffee in that aquifer!" Oh did scanners spot a surface espresso in the geology?
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May 2, 2021 17:22
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Finished up Basics Part 2 last night and it sure did get Voyager at the end. We need both Suder and Seska to die in this episode, so we'll just kill them off. Oh, how should they die? Should it be dramatic or compelling or tragic or exciting? Nah, just whatever, they just die.
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May 2, 2021 17:24
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HopperUK posted:Finished up Basics Part 2 last night and it sure did get Voyager at the end. We need both Suder and Seska to die in this episode, so we'll just kill them off. Oh, how should they die? Should it be dramatic or compelling or tragic or exciting? Nah, just whatever, they just die. Originally Seska’s baby was going to die but she survived, back when the script originally had the child as Chakotay’s
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May 2, 2021 17:29
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The producers’ go-to excuse for not feeling like writing for an interesting character on Voyager was that they were “irredeemable”.
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May 2, 2021 17:34
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Eh I can see not wanting to deal with Suder's whole thing on a constant basis but like, spend five minutes thinking of an interesting way to kill him off then. Seska likewise.
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May 2, 2021 17:41
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Seska's actress got written off poorly twice. At least the DS9 writers later talked about how stupid they were to think there was nothing to do with the Romulan cloak operator character on the Defiant and ditch her immediately.
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May 2, 2021 18:07
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Grand Fromage posted:Seska's actress got written off poorly twice. At least the DS9 writers later talked about how stupid they were to think there was nothing to do with the Romulan cloak operator character on the Defiant and ditch her immediately. Its funny how season 7 also introduces a Romulan character who gets ditched immediately
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May 2, 2021 18:19
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Also in all of the three way calls about the fleet actions on like the invasion of Cardassian it was always Sisko, Admiral White Guy, and Martok— no Romulans at all. Kinda laff.
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May 2, 2021 18:25
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That at least makes some sense, the Romulans were allies of convenience that were getting set up as the next big bad until Nemesis just wiped them out on a whim
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May 2, 2021 18:39
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Timby posted:Want to have some cringe? Of course you do. Sorry for the thread necromancy, but.. drat is this painful to watch. The ship renderings are spot on as usual by Tobias Richter, but LOL that they purposely put a blur circle on the engineer on the Artemis?! What, did he decide he didn't want to be in the film anymore? Also LOL they didn't bother getting Tony Todd back (or pay him as far as I know) and they got a ringer to play an injured version of Ramirez with a big goddamn pipe embedded in his chest. Ships are taking damage from Klingons, but there's literally no exploding consoles, no scenes of internal damage, it's all on Richter's renderings to make it look like they're losing the battle.. Actors look like they were hired straight out of Golden Corral or Red Robin, 'hey wanna be in a Star Trek film?' Alec Peters had better finish his Axanar Magnum Opus before he gets to be too old to be filmed.. This literally looks like a film designed to dupe investors into giving him more money while at the same time log rolling his Axanar storyline Binary Badger fucked around with this message at 19:42 on May 2, 2021 |
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May 2, 2021 19:37
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StashAugustine posted:Its funny how season 7 also introduces a Romulan character who gets ditched immediately
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May 2, 2021 20:06
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HopperUK posted:Finished up Basics Part 2 last night and it sure did get Voyager at the end. We need both Suder and Seska to die in this episode, so we'll just kill them off. Oh, how should they die? Should it be dramatic or compelling or tragic or exciting? Nah, just whatever, they just die. Part 1 has the most unintentionally hilarious use of Chakotay's bullshit "Native American" heritage ever, at least. "Akoocheemoya, I need the wisdom of my forefathers" "What is wrong?" "I have a child out of wedlock and I don't know what to do" "You must follow the righteous path and provide for your son." "No you don't understand, the mother spermjacked me and conceived the child while aiding our enemies as we're fleeing across the far end of the galaxy" "Ummm, what."
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May 2, 2021 20:15
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That's bad enough, but then Part 2 is like 'haha just kidding, it's not your kid anyway dummy'
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May 2, 2021 20:30
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