Star Trek: *hits blunt* The higher, the fewerrrrrr

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Nessus: Dec 22, 2003; After a Speaker vote, you may be entitled to a valuable coupon or voucher!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9hseFdKcCD4

:siren:

DISCOVERY CHAT GO HERE :gowron:

USE SOME SPOILER BARS IF YOU'RE GONNA TALK DISCOVERY HERE, and we'd really prefer if you just went to the Discovery thread, since we got folks with strange surreal TV-watching schedules who will die of polywater intoxication otherwise! This policy will probably go away after the first season ends, sometime.

Anyway, where were we? Ah yes:

Space: the final frontier.

These are the voyages of the Starship Enterprise (occasionally a space station or a smaller, cheaper ship instead). Its continuing mission: to explore strange new derails, to seek out new posts and new production information, and to boldly post where no ~~man~~ ~~one~~ ~~person~~ goon has shat before.

Star Trek has been a major influence in TV culture for nearly fifty years. With multiple television series, an independent set of feature films, and a new online series in the offing, the franchise continues forwards. In many ways modern fandom has evolved from Star Trek fandom, though this is definitely a "for better or worse" kind of situation.

Our last thread went for a good thousand pages over the course of three years, and so it is time to start fresh.

I HEAR THERE'S A NEW TV SHOW?

There's going to be some sort of new Trek program in the near future. It's going to be on CBS All Access so people have a reason to subscribe to that probable poo poo show. It seems to be set in the "JJ Trek"/"Kelvin Timeline" and will feature boldly going, etc. This could be wonderful and new, and it could also be poo poo. Fortunately, as Trek fans, we are familiar with bIj.

e: EXCITING UPDATES. The show is called Star Trek: Discovery or something close to it, I don't even know. It's going to be on CBS All Access, and it'll have reduced ads - only twelve minutes!! Aren't you excited!? Those not in :usa: get the privilege of just watching it on Netflix.

Official info summary as of Stardate 0912.16:

e2: Looks like Discovery got pushed back to May-ish '17. Hopefully Domald Tromp won't ban it. No big news otherwise except that apparently Netflix paid for it with a big enough sack of gold-pressed latinum that CBS can't lose money on the deal now, even if literally nobody watches it. All Gorn remain gay.

e3:

Timby posted:

So ... what's Star Trek: Discovery?
In late 2014 and throughout 2015, rumors began to circulate that CBS was exploring the possibility of bringing Star Trek back to television in some form or another. After talking with several potential producers, CBS finally announced in early 2016 that Bryan Fuller (Pushing Daisies, Hannibal) would be the executive producer of the new series alongside Alex Kurtzman. As conceived by Fuller, its first season will be a 13-episode single story arc.

So Trek is back on TV?
Not quite. CBS originally intended for Discovery to be the centerpiece of the launch of its All Access streaming service, and the international streaming rights were sold to Netflix. But the first season, in North America, is going to be exclusive to All Access, which costs $9.99 a month and is such a tremendous piece of crap that CBS has already allied with Hulu to use Hulu's backend for live streaming. On a positive note, Les Moonves is on the record as saying that the international Netflix deal covered at least half of the production budget for the first season.

HOWEVER, the pilot episode will be broadcast on CBS proper. All further episodes will be on the All Access service.

Oh. But Bryan Fuller is running it? That's AWESOME!
Not quite. While Fuller conceived the show, assembled the team of writers and producers, came up with his overall story for the first season and wrote the first two episodes ... but Fuller is a notorious perfectionist and isn't known for moving at a terribly speedy pace. Later in 2016, there were rumors that there was a delay imminent (the show was originally slated to start filming in August for a January launch, and by September there still were no casting announcements), and then rumors started to fly that Fuller might be taking a reduced role -- which was soon announced. While it was originally said that Fuller was still actively involved in the show and would be working with the writers, just not handling the day-to-day operations, Fuller himself later confirmed that his involvement with Discovery was over -- beyond the story concept and having written the first two scripts, he is now completely out of the picture, though he retains his "created by" and executive producer titles.

Oh. Well, that sucks. Who IS involved, then?
The day-to-day executive producers are Gretchen Berg and Heather Kadin, with Akiva Goldsman lending support in the writers' room. Both Berg and Kadin have experience working on Alex Kurtzman's television shows. A number of Trek alumni are involved, as well: Nicholas Meyer is on board as a consulting producer who is also working on scripts; Next Generation / DS9 / Voyager writer Joe Menosky is on board as a writer; Rod Roddenberry has an executive producer title.

Huh. Okay, that might work. So what's it about?
Discovery is set ten years prior to The Original Series, per Fuller, though it's unclear if he means literally ten years prior to "Where No Man Has Gone Before" or if he's being cagey and suggesting it's ten years prior to "The Cage." In any event, the show's first season will cover "an incident in the history of Starfleet that had been talked about but never fully explored." What that means is anyone's guess, but some ideas include the Tarsus IV blight or something to do with the Romulans.

And the ship?
Based upon Ralph McQuarrie's rejected Enterprise design from Planet of the Titans, the USS Discovery is ... ugly as poo poo.

Who's on it?
Discovery will be the first Star Trek show not to focus upon the ship's commanding officer as the central character. Currently announced cast members include:

- Sonequa Martin-Green as Rainsford: The lieutenant commander of the USS Discovery, referred to as "Number One."
- Doug Jones as Saru: An alien Science Officer serving as a lieutenant aboard the Discovery.
- Anthony Rapp as Stamets: A Science Officer specializing in astromycology (the study of fungi in space). He is openly gay.
- James Frain as Sarek

Michelle Yeoh has been cast in a recurring role as the captain of the USS Shenzhou, while Shazad Latif (Spooks) will recur as the commanding officer of a Klingon ship.

When's it coming?
As I said earlier, it was originally intended to begin showing in January of this year. In September, it was announced that the show had been delayed to May. Earlier this month, it was announced that it had been delayed again, this time to an indefinite date in the future. Production began the week of January 23.

What timeline is it set in?
Timeline?! This is no time to argue about time. We don't have the time.

...

What was I saying? Oh, right. Discovery is set in the Prime Timeline. Don't worry if you hate the reboot movies, because this isn't part of that universe.

---

There, just link to this giant effort post whenever we start going through the same half-dozen questions about Discovery.

WHAT STAR TRUCKS SHOULD I WATCH?

This is a complex question but the consensus of the last OP is that you're best served by starting in seasons 2 through 6 of TNG. TNG is episodic other than some two-parters so you can watch out of order. From there, DS9 is generally considered to be "the best." All of the shows have high points, though some of them (Voyager) have much lower lows.

TELL ME ABOUT STAR TREKS

I'm glad you asked.

The Original Series

This is where it all began. You can see where things hadn't yet been decided or settled on, but the strong performances, anchored by the three leads in Bones, Spock and Kirk, carry through, even if some episodes are completely preposterous. While it's definitely a product of its time (Turnabout Intruder) this is also where the first interracial kiss on television happened.

Definitely campy.
e: BULLETIN FOR NEW VIEWERS: Don't start with "The Cage"! It's kind of bad. Or at least, not typical. You should, if you intend to watch all the Start Trucks in order, begin with "The Man Trap." Don't worry, you'll see this content along the way.

The Animated Series

In many ways the unfilmed 4th and 5th seasons of TOS, the Animated Series is a side branch but has some real highlights, and they had the singular advantage of being unhindered by a special effects budget.

They had many disadvantages. In my opinion, this is the best Star Trek to watch while drinking.

The Next Generation

Probably the most impactful of the series because it went on for seven seasons, and of them, five of them were quite excellent. This defines the environment where Deep Space 9 and Voyager take place. Generally episodic, but the first season is rather wonky and the seventh season shows definite signs of running out of ideas.

Something to keep in mind for newbs is that the first season got rough in a few places and in many cases was recycled scripts for an aborted "Star Trek: Phase II" or something like that, which was going to be more of a direct sequel to TOS.

Deep Space Nine

Set in a space station, DS9 examines the universe that the rest of Star Trek has created. It tears it down but finds the core within it. Generally thought by the thread collective to be the finest, it has story arcs like your modern prestige dramas about middle aged white men destroying their lives. That guy up there? He's the tailor on the space station. You'll like him. His story is important.

This is one you want to watch in order, though the first season can be a bit of a slog - no worse than TNG's less stellar episodes, though.

Voyager

Voyager has some moments and strong characters (Tuvok, the Doc, Seven at times) but is held by the collective to be the weakest of the series. It has fans nonetheless, but the premise was in many ways squandered. Nonetheless it's apparently very popular in the fan community.

Enterprise

It's a prequel series, though it denied it for a while. Many interesting ideas but hit or miss performance, though like many Trek series it starts to get interesting in season 3 -- shame it ended in season 4.

so what do you talk about here in this thread

Hyperriker, the previous original post, said it best:

Hyperriker posted:

Post about your opinions of episodes or arcs. Post about future tech, about Earth as a utopia while fringe colonies suffer, about the Federation eating other cultures by forcing a unified government before allowing membership and forcing adherence to its own political structure. Talk about how the Klingons are a stagnant blight on the galaxy, or talk about the Man Skirt. Talk about the Traveler, or the Kazon, or motherfucking Wesley. Talk about the Beard and the Impact of the Beard.

ENGAGE!

can i talk about the movies

Based on established practice, yes, though if it's a real hard in depth focus on the films it should probably go to Cinema Discusso.

Similarly, talk about other sci fi TV shows (Farscape, B5, BSG, Lexx, etc.) comes up here and there. That's alright, because that's okay.

how about other licensed material bullshit

I do believe that's wholly kosher, though if we have lengthy extended derails about Diane Duane's Romulans or similar we might want to move those things to new threads. But personally I'd rather you post Trek stuff that isn't perfectly about the TV shows, than not post at all. I adhere even now to the tenets of Scientific Posting.

That said, if you'd like to talk a lot about F2P timesink grindfest MMOs featuring your licensed property, you can discuss Star Trek Online with the friendly folks of Starfleet Dental.

I'll put more links to Trek-related threads or content as we go along.

WHAT'S BIJ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CqqsL0EqASM

Nessus fucked around with this message at 05:43 on Sep 23, 2017

# ¿ Jul 3, 2016 04:23

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# ¿ Apr 25, 2024 16:11

Nessus: Dec 22, 2003; After a Speaker vote, you may be entitled to a valuable coupon or voucher!

More stuff here if we need it at any point.

Walk of shame from the last thread:

quote:

Snak 1578
Blade_of_tyshalle 1386
MikeJF 1360
Farmer Crack-rear end 1230
Sash! 1073
Nessus 686
Otisburg 656
Apollodorus 632
Tighclops 629
Cojawfee 616

# ¿ Jul 3, 2016 04:24

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PenguinKnight posted:

S1E9 of TNG "The Battle": For revenge, an alien race that believes women shouldn't wear clothes and turbo-capitalism gaslight, trigger, and torture Picard, leaving you to wonder if they write their reports like "(((Picard)))"

I know I'm still super early into the show, but this one was pretty drat Good! This is the first one that really got me into the story. I'm amazed that within a couple of episodes the Ferengi went from dweeby hyperactive goblins to an actual threat.

I believe their original plan was for the Ferengi to be the modern-day version of the Klingons as recurring antagonists, but it just didn't all gel well for whatever of a thousand reasons, so they didn't do that. I do think that the Ferengi are (accidentally) the most nuanced alien race Trek ever presents, though.

# ¿ Jul 3, 2016 11:08

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The_Doctor posted:

I wasn't aware they'd said anything about that yet..?

After reading like fifteen articles which didn't say much beyond "It's gonna be on All-Access!!!! BUY ALL ACCESS GUYS!!!" I just went with the wiki summary. I'll update it with proper info if any proper info exists :v:

e: put the note about The Cage in the OP. Regarding the Ferengi I do half-think that the idea in universe, if not said as much, is that the Vulcans "uplifted" humanity a little -- not a lot, but a significant cultural imprint -- and while it came late enough in the game to not fundamentally change what we would see as "human culture," it did grind the edges off our various forms of stupid bullshit.

This does raise some complex ethical questions, however.

Nessus fucked around with this message at 20:26 on Jul 3, 2016

# ¿ Jul 3, 2016 20:16

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Cojawfee posted:

I think it's been used before, which is why I was hoping for something better.

I believe it was widely discussed but never actually implemented because Hyperriker joined the Maquis or some poo poo and hasn't posted in three months.

# ¿ Jul 3, 2016 22:21

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FlamingLiberal posted:

When did someone say the new series was going to be in the JJTrek timeline? I thought it was going to be the original one.

Do one of the Trek nerd websites have a list of What Is Known and What Is Not laying about, because my efforts to find one failed

# ¿ Jul 3, 2016 23:19

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Powered Descent posted:

The old Trek novels from the 80s, on the other hand, were... well, okay, they were also pretty bad overall. But they were bad in tremendously different ways from book to book, and there was even the occasional good one in the mix. I remember really liking Dreadnought! and Battlestations!.

I remember buying those from the quarter bin at library sales, where they are still often present. I liked the one where a Horta is on the crew.

# ¿ Jul 4, 2016 01:45

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I believe this was actually present as a passing plot point in "Probe," which was a book set right after The Voyage Home.

Or at least it comes up in the rewrite that got published as "Probe" since that too seems to be full of some kind of drama.

# ¿ Jul 4, 2016 02:35

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Soviet Commubot posted:

Has that been confirmed? I keep seeing it everywhere but I can't find any actual information about it.

Honestly it would make sense. If it was in the official "canon" universe they're going to be beholden to the TNG/DS9/Voyager stuff which, while in many cases great, was twenty-one seasons of television.

Meanwhile if they set it in this alternate timeline they can draw from that well if they want but they're not going to be "doing it wrong." They could have stuff about the Bajoran resistance. They could introduce the Borg. Have the Mirror Universe be the Fedora Corps under Ferengi hegemony, whatever.

It would make sense to place it long enough after the JJ Trek films to avoid the problem of "OK, so where's the guys who now command feature film salaries?"

# ¿ Jul 4, 2016 11:06

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Arglebargle III posted:

Since it's in a different timeline, they can do every plot again!

The great plots are eternal. Man vs. Nature. Man vs. Self. Man vs. Cyborgs.

# ¿ Jul 4, 2016 20:41

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Baka-nin posted:

Yeah but the Maquis was made up of Star Fleet personnel and nicked federation tech and the Cardassians thought the Federation was supplying the Maquis on the sly so that's a really big risk to take, the Doc seems to just accidentally find out using standard gear. And I just remembered in the DS9 episode were O'Brien is put on trial in Cardassia the bloke who framed him was an Order agent posing as a Star Fleet member. And again Bashir just scans him and proves his DNA isn't human.

My guess is the Cardies have the same "make you a member of a different loving species" technology the Federation pulls out a few times in TNG, but their version is either not as good or has distinct tells which got into the standard scan batteries due to the known tensions with the spying, infiltrating spoonheads.

# ¿ Jul 5, 2016 02:48

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King Possum III posted:

A couple of things about money apparently being obsolete in the Federation;

There are many references in DS9 to (gold-pressed) latinum, which comes in the form of slips, strips, bars, and bricks. The Ferengi, and especially Quark, are always looking for ways to get the stuff. As we all know.

I remember an episode where one of the characters was talking about latinum being more practical than whatever their currency was before, saying something to the effect of "it beats having to make change with an eyedropper."

I also seem to remember one of the characters in TNG talking about "credits" in a way that sounded monetary. I think they were given a ration of credits for time in the holodeck, too. Maybe the Federation pays their crews a certain amount when payday rolls around?

So it seems to me there's something that circulates as legal tender, whether credits or latinum.

What does the thread think about this?

I figure stuff like holodeck "credits" were just like chitties or schedule access since there's only like four big holodecks and fourteen little ones, and they gotta serve how many people for rec space? To say nothing of getting used for actual poo poo like training. So probably everyone gets yea number of holodeck hours per unit of time measurement for personal use. If people wanna club up they can spend more time in there RPing with their bros.

# ¿ Jul 6, 2016 02:26

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MikeJF posted:

I expect that for energy, replicators, and most things, it's like we regard my 1000GB internet monthly cap. Theoretically there, but practically irrelevant. Abuse it heavily and you might get capped. But if I want to do something large-scale and public, I'd need to go through a process to apply for more, like today to do large scale hosting I'd need a hosting plan.

Prime real estate is the big question, though.

I think something else to keep in mind is that in a post-scarcity replicator fiesta of an economy, there'd be much less of a reason to have the same places be... prime real estate. Yeah, you can only have so many people living in Manhattan, but people won't be wanting to live in Manhattan because "they can't afford to leave" or "to avoid a 4 hour commute to the job they need to survive."

# ¿ Jul 6, 2016 02:47

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Rhyno posted:

Earth appears to be a paradise in the 24th century, has there ever been a stated population level?

Unclear. Presumably a lot of people died in WW3/the post atomic horror/etc. but there's been peace for a long while. At the same time there's also places people could go to be colonists or just to, you know, hang out. And they're bothering to make an artificial continent.

# ¿ Jul 6, 2016 03:46

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Are you saying all hew-mons look alike to you? Eh?

# ¿ Jul 6, 2016 03:52

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OtherworldlyInvader posted:

De-urbanizing the cities would be the greatest environmental disaster in human history, even with 100% clean energy, transportation, and waste disposal.

Yeah, my own point was more that the inherent desirability of "Manhattan" has to do with situations which are not necessarily valid any longer, so you could in fact house most of Earth's population in commodious arcologies, perhaps buried underground like in my Japanese animes or simply concentrated somewhere. (Maybe this is the point of the Atlantis project: mass housing in an ecologically non-important area.)

This doesn't mean you wouldn't still have areas like that, but with the transporter you can go "visit" Manhattan at will, or at worst, with some degree of transporter credit rationing. But if you want to sell your statues or have an art gathering that could be almost anywhere.

counterfeitsaint posted:

Earth is really a barren, polluted, Matrix-esque hellscape, but everything, including what remains if nature, is in giant holodecks, like that one from Insurrection. A fake image is projected for any ships that happen to visit.

What if it's all holodecks, man? What if that's why Q is so powerful? But what if Q himself... Is also in a holodeck?

# ¿ Jul 6, 2016 09:15

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Tighclops posted:

That's awesome. Star Trek should have more of that and less "we have to fight the space terrorists to protect Our Way of Life"

But how can anyone relate to the prospect of the future being, in some ways other than the quality of the machinery, better than life nowadays?

Just because people live in a pastoral garden in northern California in some cases and have pet leopards doesn't mean they wouldn't have problems, and I agree having people "not have problems" sucks, but I think that's one of the unique Trek "brand points" if we wanna get all markety. The future may suck, but it sucks in new, different ways, which derive from situations which were better than our own.

Like I remember there was that Native American colony planet. That's kind of ridiculous and could easily be rendered as "reservation planet," but at the same time, Holy poo poo, the Federation gave Native Americans an entire loving planet. Hopefully in addition to retaining their own territories on Earth! Hell, they could do with more weird colony planets. It'd be a way to have monocultures and save on budget (because they would probably not have a poo poo ton of people, even after a few hundred years). They'll have to do this anyway if it's in the Kelvin timeline, if they intend to have any Vulcan story content.

# ¿ Jul 6, 2016 18:31

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Hyperriker posted:

Thankyou, I appreciate this. Unfortunately I no longer have enough time for the forums, now that I can't log in, nor use my phone, in the control room at work.

I was regretfully unable to Blow Up the drat Thread but honoured to see my child grow to 1000 by god awful pages.

"This thread and her history will shortly become the care of another OP. To them and their posting will we commit our future. They will continue the threads we have begun, and journey to all the undiscovered forums, boldly posting where no man... where no *one* has gone before."

No sweat dude, it was a great OP. Sucks you can't post so much lately but I hope the work conditions change and permit you to rejoin us in Season 3.

As for the LBGT and transhuman trek thing, the general impression of Federation Policy I get is that making yourself randian ubermenschen is forbidden in large part as a cultural horror to the cataclysm of Earth's eugenics wars, and perhaps as a general statement that ultimately we will not better ourselves by becoming more refined objects with higher numbers, but rather, by becoming better rounded and more diverse people. (Rampant Vulcan imperialism of course, obviously we're all commodities to be optimized.)

Given that they swap species around and regenerate organs I imagine that just about any injury can be repaired if you get to sickbay in any kind of alive state, or even very freshly dead. Even with major brain damage they can probably make you come back but that one you might need some brain chips for. Under this rubric, gender transition would probably be a substantial medical operation but not anywhere near as problematic as it is in the modern day, probably similar to wearing braces, and no doubt treated the same way.

# ¿ Jul 8, 2016 23:25

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Mister Kingdom posted:

I wonder if Starfleet officers get a pension? Since Scotty's not dead, would they have to reinstate his?

How the hell would you have a pension in a post scarcity environment? I imagine if anything the Federation would just want to make sure Scotty was OK, maybe give him a checkup medically. They might prefer he not get assimilated by the Borg or something.

I could see retired Starfleet officers getting some perks of some kind, though I imagine it'd be more like 'getting to ride along on Starfleet vessels instead of taking, I don't know, the warp-Megabus to Risa'.

# ¿ Jul 9, 2016 06:20

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I heard they got fewer furious letters over Kirk and Uhura than they expected. I think the only one that got reported was some Southern guy saying "I do not approve of the mixing of the races... however when a red blooded American like Kirk ends up with a woman who looks like Uhura in his arms, this response of his is only natural."

I'd agree that the progressive content of Trek in so far as representation goes can easily be overrated. The progressiveness in it that I see, fumbling and imperfect as it is, is more of an attitude thing: "the future will not necessarily be brutal grinding shittiness."

As for the money talk in the others in TOS: the obvious reason is that they hadn't decided the Federation was explicitly a moneyless economy at that point (even :ussr:

had cash after all). But I imagine the hew-mons still knew what money was in the broad sense, sort of like a lot of farming metaphors are still broadly understood or used even if most people don't farm any more.

# ¿ Jul 9, 2016 19:37

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Yeah that'd make sense, since presumably replicators got widespread in between TOS and TNG. That'd probably be the point where you just stop bother keeping count on a daily basis at all.

# ¿ Jul 10, 2016 02:04

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Subyng posted:

I dont think it makes sense that the entire Federation is a post scarcity society with unlimited energy. Maybe just Earth and some of the core worlds. I think one of the mistakes the writers frequently made is to equate Earth and the Federation as being the same homgeneous society. Anyway, it's not really ever implied that the Federation has unlimited energy. An excess of it, maybe. Just because a technology exists does not mean that technology pervades every aspect of life. For example, theres no reason to believe that people on 24th century Earth transport everywhere rather than using vehicles. Just like we don't have nuclear powered cars, even though nuclear technology is mature. Maybe the energy costs of having billions of people transporting everywhere isn't worth it. Likewise, you probably can't replicate anything you want without limit. I'd expect that the level of technology represented on Star Trek is at the extreme end. We're seeing the cutting edge stuff that hasn't yet matured enough to diffuse into the general population.

I'd agree it wouldn't be like "they wouldn't know what a car is in the Federation" but I think the TNG/DS9 stuff establishes that transporters are at least heavily used for long haul transport, such as from SF to NOLA. That said it makes complete sense that you'd get a shift between TOS and the TNG/DS9 era because that's a period of time comparable to the distance between WW2 and the modern day. Yeah, a few things might get more common along the way.

# ¿ Jul 10, 2016 18:38

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Paradoxish posted:

Yeah, the only thing that's really given me any pause about this new series is Bryan Fuller saying he wants to capture the "fun" of TOS. Like, okay, I get what he probably means, but the hokiness in the original series was mostly unintentional and the silly humor was just a result of what TV was like during that period. I don't have faith in anyone's ability to reproduce that kind of tone without it coming off as self aware and lovely. A modern Star Trek series should actually be a modern Star Trek series.

What makes it modern, though, that's the question. I think you can have a drama program which isn't necessarily mired in grit or disintegrating marriages or whatever.

# ¿ Jul 11, 2016 02:35

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Paradoxish posted:

It's definitely a good example of TNG writers not really thinking things through all the way, but given that those clones were never even conscious I'm not really sure how murder-y the whole thing was. I'd say it's more like they aborted their rape babies.

Yeah that seemed to be the explicit point, and since the clones never woke up or got programmed or whatever, the analogy seemed to hold, though without the ethical factor of having to be a life support system.

# ¿ Jul 13, 2016 10:59

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Fister Roboto posted:

Not really. I mean, the clones were being raised in a vat, and if they hadn't figured out the devious plot they would have known nothing about it. It would be more like if a woman had a single ovum removed, artificially fertilized, and implanted in a willing surrogate. If it was done against her will it would be illegal as heck, but at the same time I don't think the victim would be able to demand that the fetus be aborted as long as the surrogate was fine with it.

But whatever, dumb episode. I guess in the 80s, cloning was still a weird sci-fi concept.

I dunno man, it seems pretty horrifying to think that someone else just has to successfully get away with the caper to a certain degree, and they can make use of your genetic material forever. While I grant that your scenario might occur in terms of legal precedents in modern US society, we're dealing with a Star Trek morality play scenario.

# ¿ Jul 13, 2016 20:38

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WickedHate posted:

As a metaphor for abortion, it's incredibly clumsy. They aren't rape babies, they just aren't, there's no real reason to be so mad about their existence and nothing to gain by destroying them. On a ship as huge as the Enterprise, there had to be at least a few people willing to donate if Picard just took a survey or something.

The aliens didn't even discuss that with 'em though, they just took as soon as they got a preliminary "Probably can't bro" and a refusal from Riker. (Indeed, by specifically cloning one guy who specifically declined, they're casting the analogy even more sharply.)

What you gain by destroying the clones is making it real clear to these guys that you can't just take what you want from other people, even if you're doing it covertly.

Nessus fucked around with this message at 21:31 on Jul 14, 2016

# ¿ Jul 14, 2016 21:27

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WickedHate posted:

But theft isn't rape, and even as far as theft goes, it's remarkably harmless. Still not [I]good[I] to take genetic samples without permission, but it's not exactly the same life altering decisions.

Well at a certain point you're saying that people's consent is irrelevant, and can be circumvented even if specifically and explicitly withheld, as long as this circumvention is "harmless." That seems like a pretty problematic ethical perspective to take.

I'd say finding out ten years later that you have a genetic clone who was created against your will would be pretty heavily rocking. Or finding out in sixty years that the reason that guy looks so much like you is because he's a clone of Grampy Will.

WampaLord posted:

I can't believe in all the talk that's been posted about that episode, no one's mentioned the hot Space Irish lady that Riker bones.

We're all agreed that it's unethical to gently caress the Irish, no need to discuss the established facts :ireland:

# ¿ Jul 14, 2016 21:37

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Now I do think the calculus would've been different if, say, they needed a gene sample to reinforce their established clone lines but weren't going to be duplicating that person directly, or something like that. That would have been more in the line of a medical treatment and would have presented a much thornier ethical question, but instead they clone Riker against his will. (Did anyone ask Pulaski? now there's a punchline)

# ¿ Jul 14, 2016 21:41

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Baronjutter posted:

Hi TVIV star trek thread, I thought there was only the one trek thread in GBS. Am I allowed to post in both? I like startrek enough to post in 2 threads about it.

All is permitted, captain. But the test never ends.

# ¿ Jul 15, 2016 02:06

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Cojawfee posted:

Star Trek: Beyond Thunderdome, the movie we were talking about.

We Don't Need Another Chekov (feat. Nurse Chapel)

# ¿ Jul 16, 2016 04:27

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PenguinKnight posted:

just watched the very special drug episode in season 1 of tng. I'm amazed Beverly just didn't go "we've allowed for a permanent underclass of an entire planet of drug addicts. Starfleet is horseshit, I'm outies", because what the gently caress

I thought the idea there was that the planet of addicts were going to have mass involuntary detox and would then be fine, while the planet whose only industry was selling narcotics would be like "uh, welp."

Addict Planet made everything for Drug Planet so the losers here would be Drug Planet.

# ¿ Jul 16, 2016 06:35

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PenguinKnight posted:

I kind of had that thought, but I still find a forced detox not fully humane. yeah, it screws peddler planet in the long run, but addict planet is going to suffer like hell for an undeterminable amount of time. find a way to help addict planet while dicking with peddler planet.

I actually imagine the problem would end a lot sooner than that because, think about it: They had more than one ship, right? But their ships were breaking down from over-use. Eventually they weren't going to be able to meet demand and some chunk of the population of Addict Planet would get clean involuntarily. Now, leaving aside hilarious possibilities like "executing them with police actions" or "ignoring the poors," which just push things down the road - that means at some point the addict planet would know that they'd been worked.

At that point Drug Planet is in deep poo poo. If Drug Planet was smart they'd be encouraging Addict Planet to start building new space freighters.

# ¿ Jul 16, 2016 06:43

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Subyng posted:

What's wrong with impulse being super low warp?

I think they resolved this in the TNG tech manual by saying the impulse drive uses low-power warp fields or some poo poo to shoot out the ionized ship poots faster, so as to make the engine go better. Meanwhile you could also use the warp drive to scoot at impulse speeds if your impulse engines got blown out somehow.

They also seemed to suggest that the warp factors were actually like steady cruise speeds that were energetically cheaper to stay in, so you'd use less ~~gas~~ antimatter if you cruised in ~~fifth gear~~ Warp 6 vs. Warp 5.8 or 6.1.

# ¿ Jul 16, 2016 21:03

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Rhyno posted:

Nah, just starting thinking about how many weird as poo poo books there have been from so many publishers.

If you want to post about that poo poo, I encourage you to "go crazy." Posting crazy!

# ¿ Jul 17, 2016 03:43

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Why cookie Rocket posted:

They manage to actually kind of (probably accidentally) explore something as the plot of 1 movie in 4, then. I wish I were a sociologist so I could figure out why western sci-fi has lost all sense of imagination regarding the unknown.

I'd say a mixture of the general cultural swing towards the conservative making an optimistic worldview seem passe or naive, plus general shifting round of trends, plus it's easier now to actually make a cool action special effects movie whereas in the past a ponderous film of ideas would go down easier.

# ¿ Jul 19, 2016 07:16

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I figure all those Galaxies were running like in "Yesterday's Enterprise," if not more so.

# ¿ Jul 19, 2016 09:41

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I thought Gene was too hosed up by the time TNG came out to interfere with LBGT representation or the like, and it was mostly his shyster lawyer or Rick Berman. I mean I wouldn't be surprised if Roddenberry wasn't terribly progressive on the topic, but was he suppressing it during TOS?

# ¿ Jul 19, 2016 23:54

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They wanted to make William Gaines, the publisher of EC Comics, change that last panel to not be a black guy, and he ripped into people for it. The Comics Code was invented to sink Gaines' work, though I guess he was able to recover somewhat with MAD. An American hero.

# ¿ Jul 20, 2016 05:58

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Fister Roboto posted:

Crusher gets her dumb rear end kidnapped by Space Palestinians because apparently being a doctor means abandoning all sense of self-preservation and rushing immediately after a terrorist bombing to treat wounded. Pulaski would have never pulled this kind of poo poo.

As a side note, apparently Ireland will be reunified in 2024.

Given Brexit I wouldn't be shocked if that turned out to be so

# ¿ Jul 22, 2016 07:34

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# ¿ Apr 25, 2024 16:11

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Baka-nin posted:

I nominate Breakfast in Belfast for the next thread's title.

Thomas Riker (he's in the ra)
Geordi la Forge (he's in the ra)
Big Sisko (he's in the ra)
Jean-Luc Picard (he's in the ra)
Deanna Troi (he's in the ra)
Genderless Space Cloud (he's in the ra)

# ¿ Jul 22, 2016 23:40

The Something Awful Forums > The Finer Arts > TV IV > Star Trek: *hits blunt* The higher, the fewerrrrrr

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