|
quote:As a slightly derivative discussion, we should probably discuss problems with specific views of some of the above figureheads in the New Atheist movement. Plenty of critics find someone like Sam Harris distasteful because of perceived racism and neo-conservatism on topics like profiling, torture, and gun control, as well as his claims that Western society is objectively better on many issues than, say, a Muslim society, though Harris is more or less constantly bemoaning the misrepresentation of his views on these subjects. If he is right about that, however, it poses a significant bulwark to finding consensus among non-believers, as many might find that they actually agree with Harris or others, but say they disagree, because they have only been apprised of the strawmen made from his actual stances. A clarity on precisely what is being proposed and by whom in the discussion so far would be enormously beneficial. Your "slightly derivative discussion" is my problem with NuAtheism. I feel that since atheism is the edgy position to take, this gives people free reign to also take other, similarly edgy positions. Yeah God doesn't exist! Yeah all Muslims are monsters! and so on. If one is socially unacceptable but you have people liking you for championing it, what's wrong with another? Well of course, the answer is 'everything'. I never liked Harris' generalizations abut Islam. I always thought, even as a teen, that he went too far in his direction. I actually used to respect Hitchens a lot (God is Not Great does legit have some good points and some decent arguments), though he has his own problems and he's also completely insufferable. Another popular one was Bill Maher, especially after Religilous. I never liked his show, I always thought people were too busy yelling at each other to really get to any work done. Nowadays I really see it as nothing more than the O'Reilly factor for liberals. Anyhow, I respect Religilous more than God'd Not Dead (let's say) because Maher's misconceptions are challenged and rebuffed by people. He legit gets things wrong, people tell him this to his face and he leaves it in. I respect him for doing this. The ending was too much. As a teenager, I again went "okay old-timer sloooooooooow doooooooown. The world was "going to end" for the past 2000 years let's not get too crazy" Dawkins is my biggest disappointment of the bunch. His Twitter feed really disillusioned me, he believes every single anti-religious conspiracy out there, especially if it has to do with Muslims. And when people call him out on it, he doesn't re-examine the facts like a scientist should (and like what he says religious people should do), he instead just doubles down. TAA is a loving joke and I don't take him seriously on any level. I'm an atheist myself, if that helps matters.
|
#
¿
Jul 7, 2016 19:03
|
|
|
|
| # ¿ May 8, 2024 11:53 |
|
|
GAINING WEIGHT... posted:Can you talk about the specific generalizations you dislike? Sort of. I can't list specific examples, I didn't follow him ever since I disavowed him as a teen, but I can tell you what I didn't like before. -Harris takes every quote from the Quaran at its basic, most literal interpretation. Then he uses it to lambast the worshippers of Islam. If they do what the Quaran says, they are violent psychopaths. If they do not, then they're not true Muslims (though we should beware anyway) -He hates the left. He believes it's regressive and apologetic. The idea to him that you can accept Muslims and decry their violent extremists is completely to foreign to him. Anyone who does this is a wolf in sheep's clothing. -Like most pop-atheists, he tries to score points by needlessly giving religious poo poo. Like Draw Muhammad day and other petty poo poo. Are you against this because you think this is an excuse for people to be dicks for now reason? Then you're a free-speech hating fascist. -He is super into bootstraps. If the middle east only decided to put aside their barbaric ways, they could ascend to the level of us enlightened first world people and we'd have a lot less problems with them. While he acknowledges western fuckery in the region, he is more quick to blame the culture than the West's involvement. He even had the gall to say that if they weren't so barbaric, the West would never have tried to stir poo poo up in that region, which is what really made me go "yeah ok gently caress off bud" as a kid. drat if I can find that loving article though. It was released a few years after 9/11. It struck a chord with me because I was on the Muslim hate train along with everyone, and yet this was beyond the pale. GAINING WEIGHT... posted:Or do you think people don't really believe what they say they believe? Yes! Absolutely! ISIL don't really believe in Islam, they take the parts of it that justify their own actions and throw out the rest! Westboro Baptist Church believes gays are bad cause of God, but they ignore the major tenets of their faith to spread hate! Buddhists believe in peace and enlightment, yet they have their own terrorists and gave rise to the Aum Shinrikyu doomsday cult! People pervert teachings left and right to fit their world view. You cannot have a morality given by religion. Every moral decision is ultimately made by you. Your internal morality can be influenced by religion, but it is, usually, not the only source. GAINING WEIGHT... posted:Really? You don't think the core Jain doctrine of nonviolence would temper the violence, even a little? Don't be naive. Oh boy time to use my favorites folder! No, I do not think that at all. Religious extremism is caused by a perceived injustice, not because of religious fervor. This comes from disenfranchisement, persecution or other factors that piss of everyone regardless of faith. http://www.academia.edu/2158177/Preventing_Religious_Radicalisation_and_Violent_Extremism_A_systematic_Review_of_the_Research This article goes to the core of the matter, the Daesh. People join them because it gives them the chance to be a hero, or to right an injustice. To stand up for the little guy. The majority of the Daesh have no idea about the basic tenets of the Quaran (like the Five pillars) and yet they still proclaim to be the true Muslims ready to kill some safawis. Who What Now posted:I don't believe that you want to treat Muslims as subhuman, I think that a significant portion of New Atheists would because they already do and they make no effort to hide it. So, again, even if we have objective stats that clearly link belief X to action Y (and we don't) those stats won't be used for anything other than propping up existing bigotry. This would go a lot better if you can prove it. Seraphic Neoman fucked around with this message at 21:25 on Jul 7, 2016 |
|
#
¿
Jul 7, 2016 21:21
|
|
|
Yeah OP I'm with PTD. I know you're annoyed with his posting, he tends to think everyone is on the same wavelength he is, but he does bring up good points. You're asking a lot from us without throwing any of your own evidence into the ring. Also, can everyone please stop brining up Jainism? I have very little knowledge of it, but showing a religion which appears to be an exception and not the rule is silly for discussing religious violence. Yet whenever the subject comes up, everyone uses Jainism like a loving checkmate. It's disingenuous at best and incorrect at worst.
|
|
#
¿
Jul 8, 2016 02:45
|
|
|
Rakosi posted:That's because it is a checkmate for refuting "all religions have problems with violence, stop picking on Muhammed!". Whether you like it or not. It is not. At best it's the exception, not the rule.
|
|
#
¿
Jul 8, 2016 02:53
|
|
|
khwarezm posted:What? The argument goes that all religions have fringe elements who are radical and violent. A common rebuttal to that is Jainism, a religion based around nonviolence I assert that Jainism is the exception in this case (at best) and I disagree when people say "well all religuins could be equally nonviolent if they stripped all the icky stuff from their holy books and tried really, really hard"
|
|
#
¿
Jul 8, 2016 03:20
|
|
|
I already posted the why http://www.academia.edu/2158177/Preventing_Religious_Radicalisation_and_Violent_Extremism_A_systematic_Review_of_the_Research I post it every time the subject comes up. People create radical groups because of lovely socioeconomic issues. Government exploitation, antireligion, poverty, you name it. This group says we'll strike back at <insert offenders here>. As Brexit proved, this sort of feeling exists across all humans ever, not just because of religion. Of course it helps if the group you are against has a history for this sort of thing, but no prob you can make do if they don't. These groups accept other recruits. People who are too poor to care what happens to them, people who wish to right an injustice, people who want to make a name for themselves. Then they rally around a goal, or around a religion and voila. One extremist organization made to order.
|
|
#
¿
Jul 8, 2016 03:44
|
|
|
Basically for 15 pgs OP has defended Harris' e-honor. Sam Harris does no wrong and so long as needs defending, OP will be there. His guardian, his protector. His dark knight.
|
|
#
¿
Jul 9, 2016 22:25
|
|
|
I agree with basically all of this. I hate Dawkins because of his abject hypocrisy. For all his preaching of the scientific method, he has zero self-evaluation of his own beliefs. It's loving sad. It's nice to know that all my beliefs about Harris were justified. I guess teenage me wasn't completely wrong.
|
|
#
¿
Jul 9, 2016 22:34
|
|
|
Literally The Worst posted:Op is the only thing that could convince you that Harris is a racist piece of poo poo is if he wrote an article called "why I hate the subhuman monstrosity known as the Muslim" I literally posted a scientific article that was backed by the FBI about why religious extremism is a thing, and that it has very little to do with the religion itself, and the OP doubled down with "BUT VIOLENCE IN HOLY TEXTS! CORRELATION IS CAUSATION!" so nah that prob won't help.
|
|
#
¿
Jul 9, 2016 22:37
|
|
|
|
| # ¿ May 8, 2024 11:53 |
|
|
I am loling loving hard at the OP accusing others of no true scotsman arguments.
|
|
#
¿
Jul 10, 2016 00:07
|
|