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  • Locked thread
Memento
Aug 25, 2009



Eat This Glob posted:

Joe Son would be known better by non mma followers as "random task" in the Austin Powers movies, fyi

I was going to put that, forgot it in the final edit. He was in a few other really bad Lorenzo Lamas-level martial arts films in the early-mid 90s as well, probably most notably Joshua Tree starring Dolph Lundgren, which I don't think was ever released in cinemas in the US.

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Dangersim
Sep 4, 2011

He expended too much energy and got tired

I'M NOT SURPRISED MOTHERFUCKERS


I don't think it's fair at all to put rumble and browne in the same category as Joe Son and War Machine.

Eat Bum Zen
Jul 19, 2013

*mumbles*
Rated T for Teen


Dangersim posted:

I don't think it's fair at all to put rumble and browne in the same category as Joe Son and War Machine.

why's that?

Dangersim
Sep 4, 2011

He expended too much energy and got tired

I'M NOT SURPRISED MOTHERFUCKERS


Eat Bum Zen posted:

why's that?

Because browne and rumble were accused of domestic violence but not convicted (iirc) while war machine drat near beat that chick to death and Joe Son is a literal rapist and murderer.

Also rumble got a lot of poo poo for that incident with the yoga mat but having lived in boca where that took place there's an excellent chance that lady deserved to be told off.

Bluedeanie
Jul 20, 2008

It's no longer a blue world, Max. Where could we go?


Dangersim posted:

Because browne and rumble were accused of domestic violence but not convicted (iirc) while war machine drat near beat that chick to death and Joe Son is a literal rapist and murderer.

Also rumble got a lot of poo poo for that incident with the yoga mat but having lived in boca where that took place there's an excellent chance that lady deserved to be told off.

I don't wish to contribute too much to a D&D topic derail but Rumble has plead no contest at least twice I believe (but definitely once), which results in sentencing.

Josuke Higashikata
Mar 7, 2013

No need to apologise when I am right, like usual.



There was that time Phil Davis wrestled his wife, presumably because she has better stand up.

Eat Bum Zen
Jul 19, 2013

*mumbles*
Rated T for Teen


Dangersim posted:

Because browne and rumble were accused of domestic violence but not convicted (iirc) while war machine drat near beat that chick to death and Joe Son is a literal rapist and murderer.

Also rumble got a lot of poo poo for that incident with the yoga mat but having lived in boca where that took place there's an excellent chance that lady deserved to be told off.

I think it's all pretty bad, but you're guilty until proven innocent so yeah

Schenck v. U.S.
Sep 8, 2010


attackmole posted:

There was a moment in that fight where Bigfoot was completely covered in blood, and then they brought the doctor in to check it out and we were like "oh thank god he's stopping it"....and then he waved for it to continue and we all started screaming NO NO NO at the TV.

Bigfoot was on his back and Cain cut him up real bad, especially on the bridge of his nose which was gushing blood directly into his eye sockets so he was blind. Referee stood them up to check, and when Bigfoot was vertical the blood wasn't running into his eyes. They also wiped him down with a towel so the doctor could examine the cuts. Lo and behold, his vision was completely fine and he was good to continue the fight! So the referee restarted them on the ground with Cain in half guard, where Bigfoot obviously went blind again the instant his back hit the canvas, and Cain beat the poo poo out of him for the stoppage. It was kind of amazing to watch an MMA referee and a doctor both forget that blood flows in a different direction when you're standing up versus laying on your back.

Wise Fwom Yo Gwave
Jan 9, 2006

Popping up from out of nowhere...

As someone who isn't a "newbie" in the sense that I haven't watched MMA before (I have), I definitely haven't kept up. I still remember renting the VHS tapes when there was "tiny guy VS giant fat Asian dude" where the latter got wrecked with his nose broken, or something (I think that was the first one). Names like Don Frye, Dan Severn, the Shamrock bros, Royce Gracie, and a few others stick out in my head. Because I didn't have premium cable or even, like, ACTUAL cable at the time, I was never current.

So, if it's not too much trouble, how'd we go from that outright shitfest of a start to what's now a relatively-more-matured but still run by bizarre idiots MMA scene? I kinda understand it, but with the treatment the OPs got, I feel like it coming from goons would end up as a hilarious read. Also, there's lots of offshoots, farm/"feeder" leagues, and the like - they get mentioned offhandedly in the OPs (see Bellator/Invicta). The OPs are VERY GOOD, but do miss out on historical context, or the wide expanse beyond the big scene.

Thanks for reading.

BlindSite
Feb 8, 2009



Wise Fwom Yo Gwave posted:

As someone who isn't a "newbie" in the sense that I haven't watched MMA before (I have), I definitely haven't kept up. I still remember renting the VHS tapes when there was "tiny guy VS giant fat Asian dude" where the latter got wrecked with his nose broken, or something (I think that was the first one). Names like Don Frye, Dan Severn, the Shamrock bros, Royce Gracie, and a few others stick out in my head. Because I didn't have premium cable or even, like, ACTUAL cable at the time, I was never current.

So, if it's not too much trouble, how'd we go from that outright shitfest of a start to what's now a relatively-more-matured but still run by bizarre idiots MMA scene? I kinda understand it, but with the treatment the OPs got, I feel like it coming from goons would end up as a hilarious read. Also, there's lots of offshoots, farm/"feeder" leagues, and the like - they get mentioned offhandedly in the OPs (see Bellator/Invicta). The OPs are VERY GOOD, but do miss out on historical context, or the wide expanse beyond the big scene.

Thanks for reading.

The UFC and MMA in general went through an era (the one you watched and remember) where it was according to Joe Rogan and I quote "like doing porn" it was pretty much shunned by "the man" and left in the darkness. Most events were held in small out of the way places or on indian reservations and weren't even available on PPV, they had to be purchased via satellite. This was due to John McCain seeing a VHS tape of the fights, getting a tingly feeling in his nuts at half naked men and probably some PTSD nam flashbacks from the violence and the "human cockfighting" label. He called the other rich white dudes (probably all in the illuminati) in politics he knew and had it banned in all the states it good.

In an effort to save a failing business the UFC went to the athletic commissions to get an idea of what they had to do to become a regulated, established sport. Working with John McCarthy (still a referee) and Joe Silva (still the UFC's main match maker) they came up with the ideas of weight classes, wearing gloves and bans on hair pulling, small joint manipulation, groin strikes, downward elbows (because some stinkyhole watched a youtube of dudes smashing bricks with 12 to 6 elbows - yes I'm serious) etc and established more of a framework of actual regulated fighting. They then sent the pair on a bit of a PR tour where they educated govt bodies on how the sport was going to work moving forward, eventually california and New Jersey signed off on their rule set and the sport more or less became OK once again. Part of this campaign was to establish a rule set that was acceptable to all athletic commissions which eventually led to what's known as "unified rules".

The problem then became that the sport still had this stink on it of being a bit of a sideshow and the "human cockfighting" moniker was hard to shake, SEG the owners at the time were stuck with a failing business model and few dedicated fans including the owners of Station Casinos (noted rich cunts Lorenzo & Frank fertitta) and Dana White. Part of the problem was some venues wanted to be known as a "family establishment" others had ties to boxing and that sort of poo poo and so it was both hard to get viewers and good venues for the fights.

Enter a dude who would later establish "bald man shout times" a favorite of all MMA fans. At the time Dana white was a bit of a knock about dude. Dana started out working as a door man and aspiring to be a pro boxer. Problem was he was a poo poo boxer and afraid of getting too many concussions. He was smart enough to recognise though that there were people who wanted to learn how to box but didn't want to join a fight gym. At the time and even today most boxing gyms didn't allow people just to learn the sport, if you were there, you were there to learn how to fight. Most bank managers and soccer dads don't like the idea of going to work with mild CTE and black eyes - so Dana started teaching white collar types how to hit pads and move their feet and started making a little cash. He also (and significantly) started a community outreach program getting youth off the street and into a ring. Whitey Bulger (yeah that whitey bulger) wanted White and his partners to start kicking up money as part of their standard protection racket. When White couldn't afford to pay the dues he fled to Las Vegas and started doing the same for rich cunts. As a fan of the early UFC's he started trying to get fighters to be part of his business and in turn represented them in contract negotiations (notably Chuck and Tito Ortiz), this included BJ Penn who did some private BJJ lessons for the fertitas. When Dana learned the SEG was looking to sell he contacted Frank and Lorenzo and threw in his own savings to buy the company.

Even in hindisght the three of them seem to agree that the deal wasn't really purchasing anything except the 3 letters UFC now synonymous with mixed martial arts. They knew the business was poo poo but also knew there was something there if someone took the time to promote it right.

The problem was that fans of the shows were still small time and it was still a struggle to be accepted as a legitimate sport, so in the early days crowds and PPV buys were relatively small, in an effort to appear more popular than they were they did poo poo like put big stages and ramps up in arenas to make the place look full and fought tooth and nail to ensure full broadcasts made it to PPV and later DVD releases - this time in its history was marred by stupid mis steps such as PPV broadcasts being cut short for running over time. Even though they eventually got their way the UFC was losing money hand over fist. Dana, the ferittas in co had lost over 30million dollars at the time and it was coming to that point where the money men were seriously considering cutting their losses.

Station Casinos at the time had a side interest in reality TV and partnered with a network to do a reality show about Casinos this allowed them to featur the UFC in one of the episodes -the move proved a smart one as the small UFC segment proved pretty popular with the great unwashed, off the back of that they decided to partner with a fledgling cable network to produce a reality TV show (the ultimate fighter). The show was pretty retarded in its format and the production values were pretty dogshit but the cast they put together was fantastic and lead to a lot of new eyes on the company. It notably featured a full fledged alcoholic (chris leben), 2 jerk offs who couldn't help but torture the alcoholic (Koscheck and southworth), a weird but hilarious dude (forest griffin) and a motherfucker about to spin off the planet he's so weird (Diego Sanchez - who by the by got knocked out last weekend at UFC 200).

The finale event held in a pretty tiny hard rock arena luckily featured one of the more exciting fights in UFC history (forest v bonnar) and became one of those "holy poo poo stinkyhole you gotta watch these two cunts wail on each other" moments we all love. The story apparently goes that inbetween rounds people were calling each other to turn it over to spike and the viewer numbers went higher the longer the show went on. The shows popularity lead to more available programming on cable where they showed their back catalog (pretty sure this was UFC unleashed). This in turn fed their PPV model which helped buff their ultimate fighter show and so on down the line.

The rest I guess just goes from there.

There's also another 5 million words I could write about Pride which was the retarded idea to pit pro wrestlers against real fighters in shoot fights, but also have some pro wrestling fights and some worked fights and the yakuza in the same place, then they went broke and sold their active contracts and back catalog to the now flush UFC.

Human cockfighting starts
Human cockfighting gets banned
the only real ref and a semi volunteer fan/employee devise some rules according to commission guidelines
the commsions says "yeah gently caress it why not"
the company running it goes broke
some boxercise balding failed boxer asks his rich friends to buy it
the rich cunts say "yeah gently caress it why not"
they start losing money
they get good ratings from a TV show
they start their own TV show
said TV show is awesome - despite it being kind of poo poo
people actually start watching fights
the groundswell, internets and PPV prevelance causes the sport to grow
pride fails and their fighters come to the UFC
marketable champs causes it to grow rapidly
a pro wrestler decides to have a crack at UFC
The 2nd biggest MMA company folds and gets purchased by the UFC
they let chicks fight
a blonde lady does some armbreaks
some irish dude starts gobbing off
an english man knocks out a handsome man
a dude likes cocaine and steroids
a fatman wrestles a brazillian man
a brazillian lady bashes an american lady

and you're about caught up.

1st AD
Dec 3, 2004

Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu: sometimes passing just isn't an option.


One important bit of historical context here is that Lorenzo Ferttita himself was a former NSAC commissioner and when the UFC started to push earnesty for regulation of the sport across the United States and around the world, they hired former NSAC chairman Marc Ratner to oversee their regulatory affairs.

Also, an interesting tidbit - after Armando Garcia was ousted from the CSAC over a sexual harassment scandal, he got a job with Station Casinos.

Wise Fwom Yo Gwave
Jan 9, 2006

Popping up from out of nowhere...

BlindSite, that was a good read. Thank you for that. My mind is fuzzy on all the things I remember, but it's all decades-old poo poo that no one remembers, like the glass-cannon Tank Abbott for example. But I'm glad they finally got their poo poo together.

Now, if only the fans in Southern California would stop doing the meth. Baby steps.

Freudian slippers
Jun 23, 2009
US Goon shocked and appalled to find that world is a dirty, unjust place


BlindSite posted:

This was due to John McCain seeing a VHS tape of the fights, getting a tingly feeling in his nuts at half naked men and probably some PTSD nam flashbacks from the violence and the "human cockfighting" label.

McCain is married to the Anheuser-Busch heiress. They make Budweiser. Bud sponsors boxing.

Ninja edit: And in later years, the UFC.
Ninja-ninja edit: Which happily coincides with when McCain started to reevaluate his stance on MMA.

BlindSite
Feb 8, 2009



Freudian slippers posted:

McCain is married to the Anheuser-Busch heiress. They make Budweiser. Bud sponsors boxing.

Ninja edit: And in later years, the UFC.
Ninja-ninja edit: Which happily coincides with when McCain started to reevaluate his stance on MMA.

Good point, forgot about that link.

Foul Fowl
Sep 12, 2008

Gonzaga Karate is back!


the important thing to remember about pride is that sakuraba is the best, and pro wrestling defeated the gracies

Puckish Rogue
Jun 24, 2010



Foul Fowl posted:

the important thing to remember about pride is that sakuraba is the best, and pro wrestling defeated the gracies

and coleman was crowned the greatest tournament winner of them all

Kilometers Davis
Jul 9, 2007

They begin again


I'm awful at writing so someone should write up a nice thing about Coleman. I feel like there has to be a huge group of fans who know nothing about him and he's a lot more important and interesting than his current reputation would appear.

Shine
Feb 26, 2007

No Muscles For The Majority


As a newish MMA fan, I'm going to suggest every other new fan do what I just did and watch the very first UFC event. It looks absolutely nothing like what we watch today, and the very first match goes from the announcers saying "No rules! This is gonna loving rule!" to uncomfortable confusion after a guy gets his face kicked in and nobody seems to know if that's the end of the fight or not.

Dangersim
Sep 4, 2011

He expended too much energy and got tired

I'M NOT SURPRISED MOTHERFUCKERS


It's fitting that was the first fight in ufc history. Just instant "holy poo poo this is real".

The story goes that all the other fighters were watching in the back just chilling and talking and once they saw that the whole mood changed.

Benne
Sep 2, 2011

STOP DOING HEROIN

Shine posted:

As a newish MMA fan, I'm going to suggest every other new fan do what I just did and watch the very first UFC event. It looks absolutely nothing like what we watch today, and the very first match goes from the announcers saying "No rules! This is gonna loving rule!" to uncomfortable confusion after a guy gets his face kicked in and nobody seems to know if that's the end of the fight or not.

I just watched that and, yeah, talk about setting the tone.

fatherdog
Feb 16, 2005

by Lowtax


UFC 1 also set the long-standing precedent in MMA of announcers not having any idea what they're seeing

MassRafTer
May 26, 2001

Fundamentals as sound as the WNBA

Freudian slippers posted:

McCain is married to the Anheuser-Busch heiress. They make Budweiser. Bud sponsors boxing.

Ninja edit: And in later years, the UFC.
Ninja-ninja edit: Which happily coincides with when McCain started to reevaluate his stance on MMA.

He received a ton of money from boxing directly, no need to make connections. He'd also been ringside at a boxing match where a fighter died making his opposition to UFC hilarious.

...and the pitch!
Jul 13, 2007



fatherdog posted:

UFC 1 also set the long-standing precedent in MMA of announcers not having any idea what they're seeing

Not to mention referees!

Shine
Feb 26, 2007

No Muscles For The Majority


The Sphinxster posted:

Not to mention referees!

That was interesting to see in early UFC shows. I assume the refs sometimes had no idea that they were witnessing a very painful submission hold and it didn't register to then that a guy was tapping out for several seconds longer than it would take today. In particular, I remember one fight where a young Big John saw a guy stand up and get trapped in an armbar while standing, and it took a really long time (relative to today) for John to step in and end the match. John's body language was like "okay he's standing up... wait, is he tapping? ............ oh poo poo, his arm!" It's understandable, given how new the sport was; the first time I saw something like a triangle choke I had no idea what I was seeing, and I doubt the refs got thorough primers on jiu-jitsu holds before getting thrown into this new clusterfuck no-holds-barred combat sport.

Wasn't Shamrock's loss to Gracie at UFC 1 like that? Gracie choked him, Shamrock tapped, Gracie let go, and the ref kinda stood there like "Uh, why'd you guys stop fighting?" and they had to explain to him that Shamrock had submitted. I think it went something like that.

UFC 1 also had a tap-out by "he's not really hurting me, but I have no idea how to get out of this predicament" when a boxer faced Gracie. That's not the most noteworthy thing about that fight, though . It's worth getting the free trial on Fight Pass just to watch it and the rest of UFC 1.

Kuno
Nov 4, 2008


I'm not really new per se, been watching for about a year I just don't post because I have nothing of value to add.

Anyway my question is why doesn't the UFC have a nice regular schedule? Why can you go two to three weeks with no cards and then have 4 in the space of a week? Why not have a card once a week, PPV once a month. They could probably afford to knock a fight off the prelims and one off the main card because does every event really need to be 5 hours long?

DumbWhiteGuy
Jul 4, 2007

You need haters. Fellas if you got 20 haters, you need 40 of them motherfuckers. If there's any haters in here that don't have nobody to hate on, feel free to hate on me


Kuno posted:

I'm not really new per se, been watching for about a year I just don't post because I have nothing of value to add.

Anyway my question is why doesn't the UFC have a nice regular schedule? Why can you go two to three weeks with no cards and then have 4 in the space of a week? Why not have a card once a week, PPV once a month. They could probably afford to knock a fight off the prelims and one off the main card because does every event really need to be 5 hours long?

I think the end goal is for there to be (at least) one every weekend, with some cards being more regionally focused. For example, they didn't hold a card on 4th of July weekend this year (and most years) because lots of people are traveling or at parties or whatever, but that doesn't mean they couldn't hold one in India or China or something with mostly non-American fighters and broadcast it on Fight Pass for the hardcores who watch everything. As for right now though, some days or weekends just aren't conducive for good viewership in the markets that they're already playing in.

...and the pitch!
Jul 13, 2007



Shine posted:

Wasn't Shamrock's loss to Gracie at UFC 1 like that? Gracie choked him, Shamrock tapped, Gracie let go, and the ref kinda stood there like "Uh, why'd you guys stop fighting?" and they had to explain to him that Shamrock had submitted. I think it went something like that.

I was watching that exact fight on fightpass right before I posted. The ref totally blew it and did not see Shamrock tap.

To fatherdog's point a lot of the commentary is about how most of the people calling the fight had no idea a choke happened.

Captain Log
Oct 2, 2006

I don't promote fights, I pick fights. I'm better than Jon Jones. I'm better than Sean Combs. I am even better than John Holmes.



Fun Shoe

Also a side note to newbies.

This is literally the best MMA forum on the web. Most regular posters here also have some experience in the sport. The in jokes can probably be intimidating at first, but we all treasure this place.

team overhead smash
Sep 2, 2006

Team-Forest-Tree-Dog:
Smashing your way into our hearts one skylight at a time

Also interesting is UFC 4 where one guy just whales at his opponent with half a dozen dick shots in a row because low blows weren't against the rules at that point.

Chris James 2
Aug 9, 2012

Eater of worlds, pins, and CHICKEN


team overhead smash posted:

Also interesting is UFC 4 where one guy just whales at his opponent with half a dozen dick shots in a row because low blows weren't against the rules at that point.

I was considering asking a question here yesterday because I actually forgot what event that happened in! Thank you for that. I think that was the first UFC event I went back to watch when I first discovered the sport

fatherdog
Feb 16, 2005

by Lowtax


team overhead smash posted:

Also interesting is UFC 4 where one guy just whales at his opponent with half a dozen dick shots in a row because low blows weren't against the rules at that point.

Since the guy getting whaled on was Joe Son, we can declare it preemptive surrogate vengeance and give Keith Hackney an award

Josuke Higashikata
Mar 7, 2013

No need to apologise when I am right, like usual.



Another MMA fighter/criminal is Lee Murray, who nicked 53 million from a cash depot. He has a win over Jorge Rivera in the UFC and lost to Anderson in his last fight.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lee_Murray

Balthesar
Sep 4, 2006


Who are some up-and-comers worth paying attention to?

From this past week Doo Ho Choi and Lando seem pretty cool.

BlindSite
Feb 8, 2009



I wouldve said ben nguyen before he got murdered this card just gone.

Brian Ortega is a cool fighter too. Hes undefeated and has super slick jiu jitsu. He also knocked Clay Guida out so hard it gave his brother brain damage.

BlindSite
Feb 8, 2009



Also, Yair Rodriguez could be something special if he becomes a little more disciplined but until then his crazy style is extremely fun to watch.

Cody garbrandt is another one whos flashy, violent and undefeated.

Bluedeanie
Jul 20, 2008

It's no longer a blue world, Max. Where could we go?


Balthesar posted:

Who are some up-and-comers worth paying attention to?

From this past week Doo Ho Choi and Lando seem pretty cool.

I will have this and more in the FAQ post I promised, which should be up tonight!

willie_dee
Jun 21, 2010


Josuke Higashikata posted:

Another MMA fighter/criminal is Lee Murray, who nicked 53 million from a cash depot. He has a win over Jorge Rivera in the UFC and lost to Anderson in his last fight.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lee_Murray

Lee Murray didn't necessarily do it mind, not saying he's innocent for sure but like Joe Rogan, question everything.

CommonShore
Jun 6, 2014



willie_dee posted:

Lee Murray didn't necessarily do it mind, not saying he's innocent for sure but like Joe Rogan, question everything.

What if someone refuses to name a source for an outlandish claim?

C. Everett Koop
Aug 18, 2008
Probation
Can't post for 5 days!


fatherdog posted:

UFC 1 also set the long-standing precedent in MMA of announcers not having any idea what they're seeing

Fun fact: doing color for UFC 1 was Jim Brown. That Jim Brown.

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Fentry
Mar 7, 2003

ain't no bitch

C. Everett Koop posted:

Fun fact: doing color for UFC 1 was Jim Brown. That Jim Brown.

As Joe Rogan put it, his only experience was an undefeated record in domestic violence

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