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Guy Mann
Mar 28, 2016

by Lowtax


Escobarbarian posted:

The Lydia stevia thing was, is and probably always will be the dumbest thing about the finale.

The final season having to invent a new slew of villains whole cloth is definitely one of those things that doesn't hold as well over time. Lydia was actually one of the less egregious parts of that since she was at least an actual character and not just a mostly nameless and faceless force of evil like the neo-nazis were.

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Escobarbarian
Jun 18, 2004

an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol



I still find it funny Walt had sunk so low they had to bring actual neo-Nazis in to make him seem better by comparison.

As for guy asking about the Brock poisoning Saul explains it and his part in it in like the s5 premiere I believe.

BiggerBoat
Sep 26, 2007

For that you get the head...

the tail...

the whole damned thing.

I started Better Call Saul last night and it's really good. Is there a thread on that show or should we talk about it here?

WampaLord
Jan 14, 2010

Thaaaaaaaaat's right, Jay!


BiggerBoat posted:

I still can't pinpoint the exact moment he became unsympathetic. Some say "when he started dealing meth" but I don't think it's that cut and dried.

This point will vary for everyone, but for me it was when he murdered Jane through inaction. It's an extremely strong human response to want to help/save someone in distress and you can see Walt get that response, then actively clamp it down and just stand there and watch her die.

That's when he's a full on sociopath. Everything before that I can basically justify as self defense or Walt making the best of a bad situation. But looking back on it all, that's when he "breaks" bad, if you'll forgive the pun.

Boywhiz88
Sep 11, 2005

floating 26" off da ground. BURR!

BiggerBoat posted:

I started Better Call Saul last night and it's really good. Is there a thread on that show or should we talk about it here?


There are threads for it, but if it's anything like those last few seasons of BB, they are terrible. The threads, I mean. Not the shows. Mike's voice. Mike trying to shoot Jesse. "Skylar is or isn't a bitch". Lots of terrible discussion

Timby
Dec 23, 2006

Your mother!


"Mike's voice" was one of the most bizarre things I've ever seen argued on the Internet.

CharlestheHammer
Jun 26, 2011



Fans will latch on to anything.

Len
Jan 21, 2008

Pouches, bandages, shoulderpad, cyber-eye...

Bitchin'!

I didn't follow the threads what was Mike's voice?

Timby
Dec 23, 2006

Your mother!


Len posted:

I didn't follow the threads what was Mike's voice?

A subset of goons thought that Jonathan Banks dubbed a line of Walt's dialogue in talking with the Neo-Nazis.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p0ygSPO8aXk

It seriously led to pages' worth of back-and-forth nonsense.

Guy Mann
Mar 28, 2016

by Lowtax


Boywhiz88 posted:

There are threads for it, but if it's anything like those last few seasons of BB, they are terrible. The threads, I mean. Not the shows. Mike's voice. Mike trying to shoot Jesse. "Skylar is or isn't a bitch". Lots of terrible discussion

No it's mostly just people complaining about the old BB threads talking about Mike's voice and Mike trying to shoot Jesse five years later and doing "hilarious" "parodies" of it constantly.

BiggerBoat
Sep 26, 2007

For that you get the head...

the tail...

the whole damned thing.

Hm. Not sure I see an issue with Mike's voice but, yeah, those threads sound terrible the way you describe them. I didn't like Skyler at all for a while and found her to be a pain in the rear end but she grew on me as I watched her become resigned to her situation and began to see her as just another powerless victim in a long line of them who were pretty much only trying to make their way and do what they were good at.

WampaLord posted:

This point will vary for everyone, but for me it was when he murdered Jane through inaction. It's an extremely strong human response to want to help/save someone in distress and you can see Walt get that response, then actively clamp it down and just stand there and watch her die.

That's when he's a full on sociopath. Everything before that I can basically justify as self defense or Walt making the best of a bad situation. But looking back on it all, that's when he "breaks" bad, if you'll forgive the pun.

I think I agree with this, in retrospect.

That seemed to be where Walter's body count shifted from self defense (like Tuco) to the selfish motivation of rationalized practicality. It was his "just this ONE time" moment which, we all know, kept escalating into "just one MORE time", and seemed to be a practical decision he made and one born of convenience rather than one motivated by true fear, desperation, self preservation or merely being in over his head. You can see that in Walter's mind, it was only way to save Jessie from junk and, even if he was right, it was the first time he willingly sacrificed and innocent.

Interesting to note that after Jane, he seemed to have an easier time killing and also accepting the idea that people have to die in his line of work but he never caught on that there really is no end game. By the end, he's as greedy as all of them. Jessie, rightfully, was ready to walk with 5 million - 6 or 7 times their orginal goal - but Walter only saw how much MORE they could make.

Escobarbarian
Jun 18, 2004

an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol



Guy Mann posted:

No it's mostly just people complaining about the old BB threads talking about Mike's voice and Mike trying to shoot Jesse five years later and doing "hilarious" "parodies" of it constantly.

Mike's voice truther spotted

sticklefifer
Nov 11, 2003

TOO EASY

I don't know if I'd call Jane's overdose the turning point for Walt, because he was protecting Jesse. There's still technically a moral grey area in that Walt was trespassing and that she would've died if he hadn't. Shaking Jesse caused Jane to roll over, but it's tenuous to say she would've lived through the overdose. In Walt's mind he was saving Jesse's life instead of letting both of them die. He could've either not interfered with Jane choking, or not interfered with their relationship and doomed them both. I think his real turn happens later. By the time he's able to straight up execute someone for crossing him, that's the point of no return. But like anything, it's a gradual slope. I think that's what makes him a compelling character - that you don't really notice when he became the bad guy.

Timby posted:

It seriously led to pages' worth of back-and-forth nonsense.
It doesn't even make sense as an argument. ADR happens constantly in post for every non-live show and film out there. Sometimes it's another take on set, sometimes they get the actor in a booth, sometimes it's a soundalike because an actor's schedule won't allow it. It's not a novelty in the slightest. If you don't see an actor's lips moving (and often even if you do) it's ADR.

Jerusalem
May 20, 2004

Would you be my new best friends?


BiggerBoat posted:

I started Better Call Saul last night and it's really good. Is there a thread on that show or should we talk about it here?

I really dig that show, and I think season 2 is even better than the first, I'd enjoy hearing your thoughts on it as you go through it.

A_Raving_Loon
Dec 12, 2008

Subtle
Quick to Anger


BiggerBoat posted:

Maybe I need to look at it again but I seem to recall there being several packets of it. Even still, and assuming you're correct and if I'm remembering right, Todd and Lydia sat at a different table than they normally did. I remember that specifically because Lydia always sat by the window and wanted to talk back to back but this was clearly a 4 top.

I guess I can buy that Walt ricened up a packet, glued it back together and had it on him, so OK, but that was not Lydia's usual table. He couldn't have slid a premade pack of it into the tray because she'd already ordered her tea and was talking with Todd before Walt sat down. How'd he know she'd sit there? Maybe I need to rewatch the scene again and see if it's explained.

Yeah, the execution's really contrived in the show and it wouldn't surprise me if they flubbed details that would have fit the scheme. Haven't rewatched the episode to check, but I think the idea was that he planted at her usual table in advance? That whole ploy was about using her obsessively meticulous nature against her. He knew her usual brand for her usual drink at her usual table at the usual crime-meeting-cafe, and finally has a way to get rid of this poison the writers couldn't find a use for after 5 years.

BiggerBoat
Sep 26, 2007

For that you get the head...

the tail...

the whole damned thing.

Jerusalem posted:

I really dig that show, and I think season 2 is even better than the first, I'd enjoy hearing your thoughts on it as you go through it.

Yeah, it's really good through 2 episodes. I LOVE the callbacks to BB and the recurring characters so far (Mike, Tuco). I hope that keeps up. I'm interested to learn when he decided to change his name. I bet it's as simple as because it sounded jewish and rhymed with "call". Also, Micheal McKean as the weirdo cell phone paranoid dude. I haven't been able to figure out the deal with him and his former law firm; like what he did, why he's on leave and how Saul happens to be representing him and sleeping on his couch.

Maybe if this thread spirals into that show I'll change the title or something.

For now though, sticking to BB, I thought it was odd how EVERYONE was using flip phones (I guess because they're burners so I get why the dealers use them) and Saul even had a drawer of them but why was everyone else using them? Hank, Walt Jr., Marie, Ted...seemed like they'd have graduated to smart phones by then but I'm pretty sure they all had flip phones.

This would have been 2009 or 2010 so I know smart phones were the thing by then. Wasn't the "Hello Kitty" phone that Saul gave Jessie a smart phone? If the point was that they were burners, like in The Wire, why'd he give him a smart phone when he was at his most vulnerable and under the most surveillance? Maybe I'm wrong and the other characters weren't using flips but I swear they were.

Probbaly a dumb thing to get hung up on either way.

Jerusalem
May 20, 2004

Would you be my new best friends?


BiggerBoat posted:

Also, Micheal McKean as the weirdo cell phone paranoid dude. I haven't been able to figure out the deal with him and his former law firm; like what he did, why he's on leave and how Saul happens to be representing him and sleeping on his couch.

It probably gives nothing away to say he's loving amazing in this show, if only because it's Michael McKean and he's ALWAYS loving amazing. The dynamic between him and Jimmy is incredible.

sticklefifer
Nov 11, 2003

TOO EASY

Michael McKean is so good he makes me hate him.

CHUCK

Blind Melon
Jan 3, 2006
I like fire, you can have some too.

Jerusalem posted:

I love how Hank changes from the initial perception of him (which I think is strongly informed by how Walt apparently feels about him)

I completely disagree with this being informed by how Walt feels about him. The first scene we see with Hank he is being a straight up rear end in a top hat. He takes Walt's drink to deliver his birthday toast, drops a series of at best backhanded compliments, and leaves Walt holding the gun he was uncomfortable with.

Escobarbarian
Jun 18, 2004

an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol



re the smartphones thing I believe the show is mostly meant to be set around 2008 and they really hadn't taken off as a thing by then. the only iPhone out was the original, and people were exactly champing at the bit for it until at least the second model, that I recall.

Jerusalem
May 20, 2004

Would you be my new best friends?


Blind Melon posted:

I completely disagree with this being informed by how Walt feels about him. The first scene we see with Hank he is being a straight up rear end in a top hat. He takes Walt's drink to deliver his birthday toast, drops a series of at best backhanded compliments, and leaves Walt holding the gun he was uncomfortable with.

Fair enough, it's been awhile since I rewatched it and I remembered thinking Hank was initially just the kind of brash, in-your-face kind of guy who laughs at his own jokes and can be a bit much to be around, especially for somebody who seems as contained/repressed as Walt. But maybe I'm letting my own thoughts on both characters as they developed across the seasons color my perception.

ninjahedgehog
Feb 17, 2011

It's time to kick the tires and light the fires, Big Bird.


Timby posted:

A subset of goons thought that Jonathan Banks dubbed a line of Walt's dialogue in talking with the Neo-Nazis.

It seriously led to pages' worth of back-and-forth nonsense.

I didn't join SA until 2011, was it more or less ridiculous than "I acquit" or "What is this, the local?"

Last Chance
Dec 31, 2004



ninjahedgehog posted:

I didn't join SA until 2011, was it more or less ridiculous than "I acquit" or "What is this, the local?"

Well like clockwork it comes up every loving year/thread when some sweet summer child asks "What's Mike's voice?" and we discuss it for another 10 pages. The examples you mention don't seem to have as much lasting power.

BiggerBoat
Sep 26, 2007

For that you get the head...

the tail...

the whole damned thing.

I have no idea what you guys are talking about. Maybe that's for the best.

Escobarbarian
Jun 18, 2004

an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol



ninjahedgehog posted:

I didn't join SA until 2011, was it more or less ridiculous than "I acquit" or "What is this, the local?"

They're all equally stupid.

SweetMercifulCrap!
Jan 28, 2012


Jerusalem posted:

I really dig that show, and I think season 2 is even better than the first, I'd enjoy hearing your thoughts on it as you go through it.

I like the show as well but I actually thought the opposite: season 1 had a great arc and seemed to intentionally be "Breaking Bad lite" tone-wise. Then season 2 immediately takes 2 steps back from what the season 1 cliffhanger finale set up and the pace is frustratingly slow. They also seemed to shift the tone completely away from Breaking Bad as well. It's nice to have its own identity but Breaking Bad lite is what people wanted as well as Saul antics and season 2 is very skimpy on that.

It's still a great show though and has the same great directing and cinematography as Breaking Bad. Maybe watching the season straight through will make the pace seem less glacial.

Escobarbarian
Jun 18, 2004

an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol



I certainly didn't want Breaking Bad lite, and I think the second season of Saul is far better than the first.

BiggerBoat
Sep 26, 2007

For that you get the head...

the tail...

the whole damned thing.

I didn't want BB lite but DID want the connections to be used for the crossover/spin off and use some of the same characters. So far, that's working well but I'm only like 4 episodes in. I wanted to see "side stories" that were never fully developed in BB because they weren't central to that show's plot, along with some new characters, which seems like what we're getting with it.

JVNO
Dec 2, 2006

Programmable Polyphonic Synthesis


I can buy Walt exploiting Lydia's obsessive compulsion to poison her. I had absolutely no problem with that.

Until someone last page pointed out her and Todd are not at Lydia's usual seat.

Now, practically, I think this was because they couldn't get the shot they wanted from her usual booth. Lydia on one side, Todd on another, and Walt perpendicular facing toward the camera. You would have to film from outside to get that shot in the two seater booths, and the scene was probably too long for such a gimmicky shot. I guess practicality and cinematography just beat out concerns for consistency. But given how that plot point hinges on Walt exploiting Lydia's predictability, it really undermines the scene for me.

BiggerBoat posted:

Also, Micheal McKean as the weirdo cell phone paranoid dude. I haven't been able to figure out the deal with him and his former law firm; like what he did, why he's on leave and how Saul happens to be representing him and sleeping on his couch.

I'm sure you've figured it out if you watched another episode or two, but Michael McKean's character, Chuck, is Jimmy's brother. And the reason he's on leave is because of his paranoia about EM fields (hence the phone thing). Jimmy was trying to encourage his brother to cash out big (because his condition prevents him from working), while the firm was paying Chuck as if he were still working/temporarily absent. And that's the set up for the first major plot, and should explain why Jimmy helps him out and sleeps on his couch.

Last Chance
Dec 31, 2004



JVNO posted:

I can buy Walt exploiting Lydia's obsessive compulsion to poison her. I had absolutely no problem with that.

Until someone last page pointed out her and Todd are not at Lydia's usual seat.

Now, practically, I think this was because they couldn't get the shot they wanted from her usual booth. Lydia on one side, Todd on another, and Walt perpendicular facing toward the camera. You would have to film from outside to get that shot in the two seater booths, and the scene was probably too long for such a gimmicky shot. I guess practicality and cinematography just beat out concerns for consistency. But given how that plot point hinges on Walt exploiting Lydia's predictability, it really undermines the scene for me.


It's the same seat each time except for when Lydia gets spooked and sits in a different seat from Todd, but that wasn't the time with Walt + the Ricin

COMPAGNIE TOMMY
Jan 24, 2016

If you can look into the seeds of time, and say which grain will grow and which will not...


Throughout the series of BB the only thing I didn't "buy" was Jesse and Jane becoming involved initially. Over time it made sense but at first it was like nuh, not happening.

JVNO
Dec 2, 2006

Programmable Polyphonic Synthesis


Last Chance posted:

It's the same seat each time except for when Lydia gets spooked and sits in a different seat from Todd, but that wasn't the time with Walt + the Ricin



Well gently caress. I had always remembered it as a booth next to the window like you see in many diners.

I'm bad at watching TV I guess.

sticklefifer
Nov 11, 2003

TOO EASY

ninjahedgehog posted:

I didn't join SA until 2011, was it more or less ridiculous than "I acquit" or "What is this, the local?"

On par with "Shannon was stabbed".

SweetMercifulCrap!
Jan 28, 2012


BiggerBoat posted:

I didn't want BB lite but DID want the connections to be used for the crossover/spin off and use some of the same characters. So far, that's working well but I'm only like 4 episodes in. I wanted to see "side stories" that were never fully developed in BB because they weren't central to that show's plot, along with some new characters, which seems like what we're getting with it.

By Breaking Bad lite I meant "lighter, more comical tone but same "high stakes" feel."

The show provides a lot of backstory on Mike and season 2's progression seems to indicate that it will do just what you said with Gus

CharlestheHammer
Jun 26, 2011



sticklefifer posted:

I don't know if I'd call Jane's overdose the turning point for Walt, because he was protecting Jesse. There's still technically a moral grey area in that Walt was trespassing and that she would've died if he hadn't. Shaking Jesse caused Jane to roll over, but it's tenuous to say she would've lived through the overdose. In Walt's mind he was saving Jesse's life instead of letting both of them die. He could've either not interfered with Jane choking, or not interfered with their relationship and doomed them both. I think his real turn happens later. By the time he's able to straight up execute someone for crossing him, that's the point of no return. But like anything, it's a gradual slope. I think that's what makes him a compelling character - that you don't really notice when he became the bad guy.

It doesn't even make sense as an argument. ADR happens constantly in post for every non-live show and film out there. Sometimes it's another take on set, sometimes they get the actor in a booth, sometimes it's a soundalike because an actor's schedule won't allow it. It's not a novelty in the slightest. If you don't see an actor's lips moving (and often even if you do) it's ADR.

Murdering someone is not morally grey thanks.

sticklefifer
Nov 11, 2003

TOO EASY

CharlestheHammer posted:

Murdering someone is not morally grey thanks.

That's not how murder works.

Last Chance
Dec 31, 2004



sticklefifer posted:

Shaking Jesse caused Jane to roll over, but it's tenuous to say she would've lived through the overdose.
Her heart didn't stop or something, she choked on her own vomit... That wouldn't have happened if she continued to lay on her side, which is common junkie knowledge

COMPAGNIE TOMMY
Jan 24, 2016

If you can look into the seeds of time, and say which grain will grow and which will not...


She deserved to die

Amy Pole Her
Jun 17, 2002

I do not see why man should not be just as cruel as nature.


Escobarbarian posted:

They're all equally stupid.

What is the second one? I acquit was easily the stupidest thing I've ever seen argued

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Escobarbarian
Jun 18, 2004

an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol



The local one? It was a joke Kenneth made in an episode of 30 Rock that was about the fact the elevator was in use a lot but that a small subsection of goon crazies interpreted as being racist

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