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Amy Pole Her
Jun 17, 2002

I do not see why man should not be just as cruel as nature.


Oh I don't remember that. Lol at 30 Rock ever being racist non sarcastically though

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BiggerBoat
Sep 26, 2007

For that you get the head...

the tail...

the whole damned thing.

JVNO posted:

I can buy Walt exploiting Lydia's obsessive compulsion to poison her. I had absolutely no problem with that.

Until someone last page pointed out her and Todd are not at Lydia's usual seat.

Now, practically, I think this was because they couldn't get the shot they wanted from her usual booth. Lydia on one side, Todd on another, and Walt perpendicular facing toward the camera. You would have to film from outside to get that shot in the two seater booths, and the scene was probably too long for such a gimmicky shot. I guess practicality and cinematography just beat out concerns for consistency. But given how that plot point hinges on Walt exploiting Lydia's predictability, it really undermines the scene for me.

they could have filmed it with Todd on one side, Lydia on the other and Walt's big bald head in the silouetted in the center. That actually might have been pretty cool come to think of it.

edit:

Well I'll be damned. Maybe it was the way it was shot from the other side of the table that made me think it was a different spot since it always seemed to me that the table was rigth up agains the window and was a two seater.

edit 2: Here's why I thought this. It's a totally different table. Used to be a booth

Lydia meets mike (booth):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l3owO7ryHsM

Lydia meets Todd and Walt:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WgwHf2gWTyU

Now it looks like an entirely different place which only raises more questions, but indeed there is only ONE packet of the sweetener. So if it was a different place, how did Walt know where Lydia would sit? Nitpicking I know.


BiggerBoat fucked around with this message at Jul 25, 2016 around 22:32

Jerusalem
May 20, 2004

Would you be my new best friends?


Last Chance posted:

Her heart didn't stop or something, she choked on her own vomit... That wouldn't have happened if she continued to lay on her side, which is common junkie knowledge

Yeah, she even tells Jesse that the first time they try heroin from memory, telling him how to lie on the bed so that he doesn't choke if he was to vomit.

Last Chance
Dec 31, 2004



BiggerBoat posted:

they could have filmed it with Todd on one side, Lydia on the other and Walt's big bald head in the silouetted in the center. That actually might have been pretty cool come to think of it.

edit:

Well I'll be damned. Maybe it was the way it was shot from the other side of the table that made me think it was a different spot since it always seemed to me that the table was rigth up agains the window and was a two seater.

edit 2: Here's why I thought this. It's a totally different table. Used to be a booth

Lydia meets mike (booth):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l3owO7ryHsM

Lydia meets Todd and Walt:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WgwHf2gWTyU

Now it looks like an entirely different place which only raises more questions, but indeed there is only ONE packet of the sweetener. So if it was a different place, how did Walt know where Lydia would sit? Nitpicking I know.

Lydia met Mike at Mike's favorite breakfast place where he knew the waitress (seen in Better Call Saul a couple times).

Lydia never met Walt there. She always met him at the same time, same table, same restaurant for months (seen during the Crystal Blue Persuasion song montage). That's how Walt knew she would be there and where she would sit. You're overthinking it and trying to find a continuity error where there isn't one.

Escobarbarian
Jun 18, 2004

an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol



I guess for her that place is really......the local

CharlestheHammer
Jun 26, 2011
Probation
Can't post for 21 hours!


sticklefifer posted:

That's not how murder works.

Yes it is, you can contort if you want I guess with some bullshit pseudo philosophy 101 but it's still murder.

BiggerBoat
Sep 26, 2007

For that you get the head...

the tail...

the whole damned thing.

CharlestheHammer posted:

Yes it is, you can contort if you want I guess with some bullshit pseudo philosophy 101 but it's still murder.

Not according to Batman. "I won't kill you. But I don't have to save you!"

Last Chance posted:

Lydia met Mike at Mike's favorite breakfast place where he knew the waitress (seen in Better Call Saul a couple times).

Lydia never met Walt there. She always met him at the same time, same table, same restaurant for months (seen during the Crystal Blue Persuasion song montage). That's how Walt knew she would be there and where she would sit. You're overthinking it and trying to find a continuity error where there isn't one.

You're right. I was assuming it was always the same diner.

sticklefifer
Nov 11, 2003

TOO EASY

CharlestheHammer posted:

Yes it is, you can contort if you want I guess with some bullshit pseudo philosophy 101 but it's still murder.
No, it's literally not murder. Wrongful death at best, maybe a manslaughter charge. But no court would convict him of murder.

Amy Pole Her
Jun 17, 2002

I do not see why man should not be just as cruel as nature.


His actions caused her to lay on her back, and she died as a result of the asphyxiation.

I mean we know this bc it's tv but yeah he's directly related to the reason she died

JVNO
Dec 2, 2006

Programmable Polyphonic Synthesis


sticklefifer posted:

No, it's literally not murder. Wrongful death at best, maybe a manslaughter charge. But no court would convict him of murder.

Given her death occurred during the commission of multiple felonies, he almost certainly would be liable for her death in many jurisdictions.

Spellman
May 31, 2011



CharlestheHammer posted:

Murdering someone is not morally grey thanks.

Have you ever examined a trolley problem?

yeah I eat ass
Mar 14, 2005

only people who enjoy my posting can replace this avatar

Really it all comes down to Jessie as the main reason Jane died. He got her back into drugs, he told her about the meth business and made her a threat to Walt, so it was inevitable she was going to die. If Walt had saved her she would have just died some time later in a similar way anyway. They were never going to go to New Zealand and be bush pilot artists or whatever, they would just do what addicts do when they get a ton of money.

Of course it was still terrible for Walt to not act, but it's not really even close to the worst thing he did morally.

CharlestheHammer
Jun 26, 2011
Probation
Can't post for 21 hours!


sticklefifer posted:

No, it's literally not murder. Wrongful death at best, maybe a manslaughter charge. But no court would convict him of murder.

What do you think manslaughter is.

syscall girl
Nov 6, 2009

by FactsAreUseless


Fun Shoe

Murphy Brownback posted:

Really it all comes down to Jessie as the main reason Jane died. He got her back into drugs, he told her about the meth business and made her a threat to Walt, so it was inevitable she was going to die. If Walt had saved her she would have just died some time later in a similar way anyway. They were never going to go to New Zealand and be bush pilot artists or whatever, they would just do what addicts do when they get a ton of money.

Of course it was still terrible for Walt to not act, but it's not really even close to the worst thing he did morally.

This is a very depressing outlook you have. Although you're right about what addicts do with a poo poo ton of money. She had her dad on her side just like Amy Winehouse, errrr

But we aren't talking about the worst thing Walt did, just the subjective bit where we think he really broke bad.

drat I hate that phrase it's so cheesy.

COMPAGNIE TOMMY
Jan 24, 2016

If you can look into the seeds of time, and say which grain will grow and which will not...


She had to go

sticklefifer
Nov 11, 2003

TOO EASY

CharlestheHammer posted:

What do you think manslaughter is.
Do you want an actual legal definition?

Alpha Mayo
Jan 15, 2007

VANQUISH THE GLOBALISTS


AAA DOLFAN posted:

His actions caused her to lay on her back, and she died as a result of the asphyxiation.

I mean we know this bc it's tv but yeah he's directly related to the reason she died

Heroin is directly related to the reason she died. Unintentionally causing her to lay on her back indirectly caused her to choke on her vomit due to the direct cause of heroin overdose.

Ethically, willful inaction is the same as a willful action, so he is definitely responsible for her death even though he didn't directly kill her. He made a conscious decision not to help her avoid death so I agree it was murder, just not premeditated.

I actually don't see that as his turning point though. Walt has conflicted feelings about what he did. I think his final turning point is in the fly episode much later. I always took the fly/"contamination" in that episode to represent a realization of what he had become and a last chance to redeem himself before becoming a monster, by telling Jesse the truth about Jane, and which he decides against and completes the transformation.
I could be wrong though it's been a long time since I've watched BB.

Escobarbarian
Jun 18, 2004

an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol



I feel like they deliberately wrote the death scene to have many different levels, making most if not all interpretations in this thread equally valid. No need to argue about it.

Blind Melon
Jan 3, 2006
I like fire, you can have some too.

syscall girl posted:

But we aren't talking about the worst thing Walt did, just the subjective bit where we think he really broke bad.

He broke bad in the pilot, we are talking about when he became unsympathetic.

syscall girl
Nov 6, 2009

by FactsAreUseless


Fun Shoe

Blind Melon posted:

He broke bad in the pilot, we are talking about when he became unsympathetic.

Maybe I just don't understand what that ridiculous phrase meant.

Spellman
May 31, 2011



I think for a lot of people it was when Walt poisoned Brock. And it probably had a lot to do with the delivery because most of the time you're with Walt the whole time he's engaging in possibly immoral shenanigans. The story is very forthright in everything Walt does. But in this case you're just kind of believing in Walt, wanting Jesse to put down the gun. Gus is primo villain at this point, he's threatening Walt's family, he's got a rap sheet for using kids in his drug trade.

And then they brilliantly show the Lily of the Valley, and you feel like you got scammed for believing in Walt, and it's such a "you son of a bitch" moment that it's when the lion's share of Walt supporters jumped off it.

Pepe Silvia Browne
Jan 1, 2007


syscall girl posted:

Maybe I just don't understand what that ridiculous phrase meant.

I think this scene from Better Call Saul really sums up the concept of what it means to break bad in the way that fans use that phrase.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cYaXYPi2N4E

In this scene, Mike is laying out for another character that he has now "broken bad." It's a seal that can't be unbroken. All of his decisions from that point forward have to take the fact that he broke the law under consideration, or he will get caught. He is a criminal now.

Also, here's a TIME article about the title of "Breaking Bad" and what it means:

quote:

Show creator Vince Gilligan has said (as in the video above) that he had thought it was a commonly used phrase when he decided to use it as a title, not knowing that the expression was a Southern regionalism from the area in Virginia from which he hails. It means “to raise hell,” he says, as in “I was out the other night at the bar…and I really broke bad.”

But, while the gist of his definition is pretty widely accepted, Gilligan’s use-it-in-a-sentence definition of the phrase is an incomplete accounting of its meanings. In general, “breaking bad” connotes more violence than “raising hell” does. A glance at the bevy of definitions at user-sourced Urban Dictionary reveals that different contributors think the words possess a wide variety of nuances: to “break bad” can mean to “go wild,” to “defy authority” and break the law, to be verbally “combative, belligerent, or threatening” or, followed by the preposition “on,” to “completely dominate or humiliate.”

Reference books back up that third meaning seen at Urban Dictionary. The New Partridge Dictionary of Slang and Unconventional English gives a definition of “to act in a threatening, menacing manner”; American Slang gives a similar definition and traces the phrase to 1970s black usage. Cassell’s Dictionary of Slang says it’s African-American slang from the ’60s that means “to become angry or aggressive”—and that on 1980s college campuses it could (perhaps in a “bad equals good” sense?) mean “to perform well.” The Facts on File Dictionary of American Regionalisms labels the phrase as Southern slang that means “to behave in a violent manner for no good reason.”

One of the earliest instances of the phrase appearing in the New York Times backs up the definition (to turn violent unnecessarily) and history (black, Southern, 1970s) suggested by those lexicographers. In a 1980 excerpt from John Langston Gwaltney’s Drylongso, a Self-Portrait of Black America, an oral history of African-American communities; in describing his view of race relations, a black man from rural Missouri told the author that “if a white man was to come over here and ask me anything, I wouldn’t break bad with him.”

But, while that idiom matches the one appearing in many dictionaries, there’s an even earlier appearance of the expression with a very different sense to it, suggesting the violence now implied by the phrase came later. In a 1919 overview of goings-on on Wall Street, the writer suggested that “the average speculator will not take a position in the highly speculative industrials for over Sunday, but because he can’t stay out of the market altogether, gets into the rails at the end of the week in hope of making a successful turn and with confidence that if things ‘break bad’ over Sunday rails will feel the shock less than the industrials.” That older use of “break bad,” meaning “to go bad,” requires little knowledge of regional slang, and it makes enough sense that anyone might come up with or at least understand it.

some guy on the bus
Jan 21, 2006

This avatar was paid for by the Silent Majority.

Jane deserved it.

The first thing Walt did that I couldn't justify was when he made the decision to murder Gale. Jesse told Walt to go to the police instead, and yeah, that would make the most sense. He decided to murder someone rather than go to jail.

I even understand poisoning Brock because the lives of his whole family was threatened, not just his. The life of his infant daughter was threatened. He had to do whatever it took to get rid of Gus at that point.

Spellman
May 31, 2011



There's a really good breakdown of Vic Mackey from The Shield talked about by his actor, Michael Chiklis, and he kind of explains how people can like a character like Vic, who shares some commonalities with Walt. I wouldn't watch this if you don't want to hear spoilers for the pilot for The Shield. But Vic does a fairly dark thing in the first episode that sets the course of the show for the rest of the series.

In the video he talks about how when he showed the pilot to his family, half of them were like, oh my god, you're the villain in this show, after he kills a cop. But the other half of the family says "yea but the cop was a rat!" And he goes on to explain that people are able to justify things like that if their heart is in the right place, and how we compartmentalize certain behaviors to justify others.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rt70zsWKUGU

If you've never watched it, and you're a fan of Breaking Bad, it honestly has the same spirit as BrBa and you should definitely watch it. It's got funny characters, violence and drama — it's great.

Jerusalem
May 20, 2004

Would you be my new best friends?


The Shield is excellent, even though it kind of sits in an awkward halfway point between 1990s network drama and 2000s cable drama. I think it would be a very different show if it had been made a few years later but even if some of the writing/plotting feels a little clumsy by comparison to what we see nowadays I still think the characterization is strong enough to make it a great show. The four members of the Strike Team (including Ronnie, who starts slow) are all utterly fascinating characters.

Amy Pole Her
Jun 17, 2002

I do not see why man should not be just as cruel as nature.


Meta Ridley posted:

Heroin is directly related to the reason she died. Unintentionally causing her to lay on her back indirectly caused her to choke on her vomit due to the direct cause of heroin overdose.

Ethically, willful inaction is the same as a willful action, so he is definitely responsible for her death even though he didn't directly kill her. He made a conscious decision not to help her avoid death so I agree it was murder, just not premeditated.

I actually don't see that as his turning point though. Walt has conflicted feelings about what he did. I think his final turning point is in the fly episode much later. I always took the fly/"contamination" in that episode to represent a realization of what he had become and a last chance to redeem himself before becoming a monster, by telling Jesse the truth about Jane, and which he decides against and completes the transformation.
I could be wrong though it's been a long time since I've watched BB.

Oh I honestly forget - did he not move her onto her back?

poo poo I thought he moved her onto her back by actually touching her. Then you'd argue eggshell doctrine if the heroin was brought up, because it doesn't matter how you find your victim, you take them as they are

Last Chance
Dec 31, 2004



AAA DOLFAN posted:

Oh I honestly forget - did he not move her onto her back?

poo poo I thought he moved her onto her back by actually touching her. Then you'd argue eggshell doctrine if the heroin was brought up, because it doesn't matter how you find your victim, you take them as they are

He was pushing Jesse, trying to wake him up and caused her to roll over, but it's splitting hairs at that point.

This thread is giving me fits of nostalgia, it's like a microcosm of all of the previous threads over the years, hitting all the major points: Did Walt kill Jane, Mike's Voice, making fun of Mike's Voice, What's Mike's Voice?, When did Walt become evil??, The Shield is like Breaking Bad here are some spoilers: (thankfully with spoiler tags this time around).

I'm not complaining, it's just really nostalgic

COMPAGNIE TOMMY
Jan 24, 2016

If you can look into the seeds of time, and say which grain will grow and which will not...


Honestly for me it wasn't til he took the baby.

COMPAGNIE TOMMY
Jan 24, 2016

If you can look into the seeds of time, and say which grain will grow and which will not...


Actually it might have been when he purposefully crashed his car with Hank or the pushing of shots upon Walt Jr.

syscall girl
Nov 6, 2009

by FactsAreUseless


Fun Shoe

Harold Stassen posted:

Honestly for me it wasn't til he took the baby.

That and the fight with Skyler definitely sealed the deal.

Still saying Jane and maybe before that but yeah.

CharlestheHammer
Jun 26, 2011
Probation
Can't post for 21 hours!


sticklefifer posted:

Do you want an actual legal definition?

No who loving cares.

Looten Plunder
Jul 11, 2006


Grimey Drawer

I found on later rewatches that I was a lot more sympathetic to Skyler. Not sure if it was knowing what was to come in future, or the lack of "Skyler is a stinkyhole" barraging me every time I took part in discussions online but she was a lot more sympathetic with further viewings.

Feldegast42
Oct 29, 2011

Peace Through Blood




Jane dying was the turning point in me hating Walt (or at least him officially turning into Heisenberg), even though you could argue her death was inevitable at that point. It doesn't help that I had a waifu crush on her at that time and that scene really hit me hard because of it.

sticklefifer
Nov 11, 2003

TOO EASY

xcore posted:

I found on later rewatches that I was a lot more sympathetic to Skyler. Not sure if it was knowing what was to come in future, or the lack of "Skyler is a stinkyhole" barraging me every time I took part in discussions online but she was a lot more sympathetic with further viewings.

I never got a lot of the hate for Skylar (other than just people's misogyny), because from her POV her husband is drastically changing his attitude, doesn't tell her why, keeps everything a secret, pushes her away, etc. Meanwhile her most vocal detractors aren't bothering to justify that Walt is becoming a powerful meth dealer, getting into business with cartels, and ducking the feds. I get it, he's trying to apply what he's good at into saving his life and can't tell her because it's illegal, but that doesn't mean he's treating her well. You can point to her eBay handjob in the pilot as her being an awful wife if you want to stretch blame I guess, but that to me was more a scene of both of them having been together for a long time and having long since become bored suburban spouses. Her perspective is pretty well justified throughout the show, but people at every turn just kept calling her 'stinkyhole' because internet gonna internet. I feel like she was finally vindicated by the "I liked it. It felt good." scene, though it didn't stop her from being such a hated character overall.

With the point of Walt's "turn" being discussed in the thread, I think the "I liked it" scene applies to that discussion as well: Walt stopped being a good guy when the meth stopped being about getting himself cancer treatment, and more about enjoying what he was doing. If you go by that logic, his turn happened much, much earlier: blowing up Tuco's drug den. Just watch how he reacts inside his car after doing that. It was no longer about his cancer, it was a rush. As for when I personally stopped liking him, like most things with the show it was gradual, not sudden.

Escobarbarian
Jun 18, 2004

an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol



Skyler is portrayed as sort of over-the-top and bitchy for, what, three episodes? Pretty much until she finds out about the cancer? After that the hate literally was just misogynist bullshit.

syscall girl
Nov 6, 2009

by FactsAreUseless


Fun Shoe

Escobarbarian posted:

Skyler is portrayed as sort of over-the-top and bitchy for, what, three episodes? Pretty much until she finds out about the cancer? After that the hate literally was just misogynist bullshit.

Old tviv thread was very bad about this.

COMPAGNIE TOMMY
Jan 24, 2016

If you can look into the seeds of time, and say which grain will grow and which will not...


Everybody Hates Skylar

Blind Melon
Jan 3, 2006
I like fire, you can have some too.

sticklefifer posted:

I never got a lot of the hate for Skylar (other than just people's misogyny)

This right here is a third of the reason I dislike Skyler.

The other two thirds are half heatedly embracing her dark side when it is convenient and beneficial for her, and being a poorly written antagonist with no real role to play. Walt did what evil he did for selfish reasons just like Skyler did what evil she did for her.

Escobarbarian posted:

Skyler is portrayed as sort of over-the-top and bitchy for, what, three episodes? Pretty much until she finds out about the cancer? After that the hate literally was just misogynist bullshit.

Going after Jesse instead of having a conversation with Walt about his marijuana use is simultaneously controlling and pathetic.

Blind Melon fucked around with this message at Jul 29, 2016 around 01:03

Looten Plunder
Jul 11, 2006


Grimey Drawer

Blind Melon posted:

Walt did what evil he did for selfish reasons just like Skyler did what evil she did for her.

Did you dislike Walt as well then?

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Blind Melon
Jan 3, 2006
I like fire, you can have some too.

God yes. Even more so on re-watch.

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