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I’m starting this thread because of a 2 page derail that came up in the “Irrationally Irritating Movie Moments” thread. Apparently, people still have very strong opinions about this show and wildly different interpretations of the characters, their motivations, the underlying message and certainly what they consider to be “rational" regarding the many was it can be interpreted. I searched and couldn't find a running Breaking Bad thread I started a re-watch myself recently and am up to Season 4. It’s been 4 or 5 years since I binged through it and realized I’d only ever watched it once. It’s not one of those shows like The Wire or The Sopranos where there’ s a million different subtle things you notice each time, at least for me, but I am finding myself having different takeaways the second time through and when I noticed some irrational things that bugged me, I brought them up. I’m going to swipe some of my own posts to save a little time and get us rolling here and I’m not sure how “technical” I need to be in terms of S1, E3 and doing it entirely in a play by play fashion, but I don’t think that’s needed to just discuss the show. Breaking Bad: the coincidences near and at the end of season 2 bugged the gently caress out of me. Jessie hooks up with his neighbor who just happens to be a recovering addict. Walter just happens to meet the girl's father in a random bar after her OD. The same girl's father just happens to be an air traffic controller who, due to his grief, just happens to gently caress up at his really important job and the plane he just happens to cause to wreck just happens to crash over Walter's house and scatter debris everywhere. It all seemed like a bit too much of "just happened to". I get what they were going for: showing how Walter's actions lead to collateral damage and a butterfly effect of sorts but the show often managed this sort of thing better and to greater effect. I like trying to pinpoint the exact moment that Walter became unsympathetic, especially on the re-watch, because I recall starting out rooting for him and can't remember the moment where he turned into a rear end in a top hat. Some argue he was always an rear end in a top hat, and he probably was. But In the beginning Walt was an underpaid public school teacher who got cancer for no loving reason (it's implied by Skyler it was work related), he had a special needs child, a baby on the way and absolutely insurmountable health care bills. His best friend and colleague got rich in part from Walt's own ideas, which was part of the reason he didn’t want to accept his money. I rooted for Walt because he was hosed over so much and then just said "to hell with it" and went about making money the only way he knew how doing the one thing he was great at. He was a loser in the eyes of society, underpaid for his talent, had to supplement his income working in a car wash and then, when faced with his own imminent mortality, said "gently caress it. I'm going for it". I like how ambiguous and rich the show is dealing with shades of grey. Nobody is "good" or "evil" in an absolute sense, even the cartel members and the Chicken Man, and I absolutely found Walter White to be sympathetic. Hank is another good example. Skylar too. No one is pure and good all the time. Maybe Walter Jr. is the exception. Even the "Evil Bad Guys" were shown to have families and loved ones, and their motivations rendered clear. I absolutely found Walt sympathetic for a while and can't see how anyone can view the show and think it doesn't deal in gray shades of morality. It's almost the entire point of the show and none of the characters are presented in absolute terms. Who is innocent here? Who is guilty? In some ways, I think the show is an indictment (or an acknowledgement of) of capitalism, our broken health care system and a peek into collateral damage/The Butterfly Effect. How everything is interconnected and every decision affects someone else. Look at how in Season 4 Walt's drug profits, once Skyler signs on, are used to pay for his rehabilitation. Or the money laundering website that Flynn unknowingly set up ties into the skeevy lawyer. It seems on a second viewing to be an indictment of greed coupled with the laws of necessity. What we NEED as it relates to what we WANT, the ways we change in the pursuit of both and attempt to discern and ultimately rationalize the behavior that those pursuits lead us into. For instance, I'm noticing that Jessie gradually becomes more like Walter, Walter more like Gus, Skyler more like Ted, Gale wants to be more like Walter, etc. and how everyone operated within their own self justifying view of what is moral. Saul and Mike seem to make no bones about who and what they are which is why they're great. Hank's character has come more to the forefront on my re-watch too. He has more nuance and development than I picked up on the first time and he's become my favorite character and the most interesting arc for me now. More on him I guess if the thread grows legs, so to speak. Lastly, one other irrationally irritating coincidence that bugged me (since that's why I started this thread) was when Jessie just happens to hook up and deal to the sister of the kid that murdered his street dealer friend, Combo. Which, again, I think reinforces my opinion that the show is all about societal interconnection and the way that our decisions impact others lives, even in ways we never see. Just that if I have any issues with the show at all, and I think it's great, it's that a few of the coincidences feel forced seem a bit heavy handed for the sake of dramatic narrative. So let's discuss Breaking Bad I guess if anyone feels like it.
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Jul 14, 2016 21:35
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-Blackadder- posted:He became unsympathetic the moment he, despite having a family, opted to become a drug dealer rather than "take charity". I don't know. For me it was more gradual but I can see that view.
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Jul 14, 2016 21:58
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The acting in this show is really great. I can't think of one actor that's distracting, which is really saying something for a TV show. I'm loving picking up on the weird tension between Hank and Walt when they discuss Heisenberg and the gambling story. It's played so you can't tell if Hank just instinctively smells a rat or if it's filmed that way to emphasize Walter's paranoia. That suspicious look Hank keeps giving him is really ambiguous, like he knows something's not adding up from years of listening to criminals lie.
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Jul 15, 2016 15:51
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Hughmoris posted:They're minerals! What was that all about anyway? I honestly forget. Was it just some OCD boredom deal or spiritual new age healing thing he went on? Or were the minerals and crystals symbolic of his meth cook hunt? And in S4, I forget which episode, why was Mike in the back of the one chicken truck? Just guarding it? There were several trucks. How'd he happen to be in the one that got hijacked? eidt: Holy poo poo, Bill Burr as the fake EPA agent. Never noticed that.
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Jul 15, 2016 17:08
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syscall girl posted:Whoa? He was cast as a pawn for Skyler to strong arm the owner of the car wash she insisted on buying. Can't believe I didn't recognize him. Speaking of that, watching Skyler evolve as a character is really interesting the second time through. Watching her begin to embrace corruption, starting with cooking books for Ted and then later by applying her skills at laundering money really echoes Walt's journey in a lot of ways. They're both only really good at ONE thing. You watch Skyler gradually embrace where she's at with her job and her marriage, begin to apply her practical skills out of sheer desperation (and revenge/power), and then even begin practicing and rehearsing lies and beginning to "break bad" (including banging Ted) which basically seems to amount to "doing what you WANT to do, couple it with what you HAVE to do and then apply what you KNOW how to do." She moves from fear to acceptance to rationalization and proactivity so gradually you hardly notice the character growth. From there, she moves into studying, cunning and planning to execution and stubbornness, and basically becoming Walter, which is a really fascinating character arc.
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Jul 15, 2016 20:20
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I think the thing where Hank never suspected Walt makes perfect sense. Hank KNEW Walter. He knew he was a big old science geek and just a regular old nerdy guy so Walt was able to fly under the radar. Plus, regarding the missing lab equipment, Hank already had Jessie in his sights and had developed tunnel vision with that. He figured it was probably Jessie that ripped off the lab. Later, he focuses all of his investigation on Gus, so he's this close. Also, I think Hank's sympathy towards Walter's illness probably clouded his vision too. Around season 3 or 4 though, you begin to see Hank's bullshit detector going off whenever he's speaking with Walt; almost an instinctual thing, like especially after the gambling money story..Hank's used to hearing people lie so you can see him sense it, but the fact that Walt was a close family member and friend blocked his ability to put two and two together, even though you can see him smelling a rat. And, yeah, Walter got lucky a lot but he also made his own luck several times. Often he's remarkably able to improvise and think on his feet like gassing the RV and coming up with the ricen plan. His hubris and his ego are what really gets in his way and undoes him most of the time. He was the one that stupidly planted the seed in Hank's brain that "Heisenberg might still be out there" instead of just letting Hank hang it on Gale and Gus. Then again, safe to say that if Gus got nailed, he'd sure as poo poo take Walt and Jessie down with him or cut a deal and Walter probably knows that.
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Jul 18, 2016 16:12
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Harold Stassen posted:I think the moment that my perspective re: Walt changed was him feeding Walt Jr. tequila shots against Hanks misgivings. Before that point, you think it's all for the family- after that moment, you see his motivations are really more about remaining in control, family be damned. He's less concerned about Walt Jr./Flynn I think that was born out of fear, desperation and the begrudging acknowledgment of Walter's own sense of his impending mortality. He struck me as a guy who took the low, altruistic, "easy" lower paying road and who, upon realizing his clock was ticking, began to assert himself because "drat the consequences" at that point. What consequences? He's going to DIE. Walter was the living embodiment of someone with nothing left to lose who never channeled his talent in ways that would lead to riches and who watched his friend and (I think) his mistress/college sweetheart cash in on his knowledge, marry each other, sell out and then not only get REWARDED for it but, in his mind anyway, also had the AUDACITY to offer him charity for something that was rightly his. I don't get the sense that Walt had an inherent problem with charity, in and of itself, but that, again, from his standpoint, he had a problem with where it was coming from and said "No. I'm taking MY shot here. I'm gonna die anyway. I'll SHOW you what I can do". Of course then he was quickly in over his head and, eventually, the lack of money gave way to having TOO MUCH of it, he got trapped and found a whole new slew of problems he wasn't equipped to handle. For instance, If you watch season 2 (I think it is) when they tell Walt him he's in remission, he almost looks disappointed and SAD at the news, unsure how to take it, but yet his family is celebrating and throwing a party. I think that's what the drinking scene with Walter Jr was about. Walt was sure his time clock was punched and, when it wasn't, while everyone else was celebrating, he was actually distraught and, in a way, powerless. He's not celebrating the news. So he gets sad, angry, mean drunk and exerts his power by using the closest tool at his disposal, his son, and the closest target, Hank, which he immediately regrets once he sobers up. Walter is very much a victim in this story. He starts out that way and it's the entire catalyst for the whole show : "You have (lung) CANCER. You're gonna die". Even though he never even smoked. He's broke, he's a loser, has no meaningful health insurance, an unplanned baby on the way, a handicapped kid, etc. etc. and sets about making some money. Bolded above for skimming purposes and emphasis mine but I think, at it's heart, the whole show is an indictment of capitalism, drug laws, law enforcement and America's god awful health care system. At its heart anyway.
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Jul 18, 2016 20:09
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getting sick than he is about Hank being an obstacle.
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Just finished my re-watch. i surprised how much I'd forgotten (Lydia, Todd, the White Supremacists) so it was actually enjoyable truly not remembering several major plot points. I thought the final episode was actually a little bit flat to be honest and ended too quickly. The mechanical machine gun turret working so well was a bit much but I liked the way they established it by showing Walt "parking wrong" earlier. The main thing I took away from the re-watch was, again, watching Walter's descent from reasonably sympathetic victim in the beginning into full blown psychopath by the end. I still can't pinpoint the exact moment he became unsympathetic. Some say "when he started dealing meth" but I don't think it's that cut and dried. I was still a little unclear on the poisoning of Brock, how and when Walt pulled it off (I know he used the flower) and how Jessie put it all together. Also, when and how did Walt get the ricen into Lydia's sugar packet? If I remember right, there was more than one packet in the tray and it appeared to be sealed. How'd he know she'd pick that exact one? For as much poo poo as Skyler takes, I actually had forgotten how much I disliked Marie, but by the end she was incredibly sympathetic and quite reasonable. One of the real strengths of this show is how practically everyone had an arc. That's hard to do in any medium and is particularly well done here. Even Walt, Jr., who I didn't really perceive as having an arc at all the first time I watched, went from Daddy apologist and hating his Mom, to confused, to finally just wishing his piece of poo poo Dad would die and wanting nothing to do with him. I think the "Rage" video game scene was more of a set up and a precursor for the shootout Jessie finds himself in later and was a glimpse into his growing fear, anger and paranoia. I didn't recognize the game so thanks for that but, if anything, the term "Rage" really seemed to embody Jessie by I guess midway through season 4 so maybe it was intentional.
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Jul 22, 2016 23:00
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Last Chance posted:I feel like the OP should include links to the old threads, they're fun to read in a morbid way I couldn't find them so i started a new one. Post them if you have them. sweetmercifulcrap posted:Jesse put it together when he realized that Huell had swiped his pot, and most likely also swiped the ricin cigarette as ordered by Walt. OK, but I still can't piece it together. Also, it seemed like Saul was in on it too somehow. I never managed to fit it together. Huell's the big fat bodyguard, right? A_Raving_Loon posted:She had a specific brand she preferred, so he made sure the poison was the only pack of it at that table. Maybe I need to look at it again but I seem to recall there being several packets of it. Even still, and assuming you're correct and if I'm remembering right, Todd and Lydia sat at a different table than they normally did. I remember that specifically because Lydia always sat by the window and wanted to talk back to back but this was clearly a 4 top. I guess I can buy that Walt ricened up a packet, glued it back together and had it on him, so OK, but that was not Lydia's usual table. He couldn't have slid a premade pack of it into the tray because she'd already ordered her tea and was talking with Todd before Walt sat down. How'd he know she'd sit there? Maybe I need to rewatch the scene again and see if it's explained.
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Jul 23, 2016 06:01
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I started Better Call Saul last night and it's really good. Is there a thread on that show or should we talk about it here?
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Jul 24, 2016 16:45
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Hm. Not sure I see an issue with Mike's voice but, yeah, those threads sound terrible the way you describe them. I didn't like Skyler at all for a while and found her to be a pain in the rear end but she grew on me as I watched her become resigned to her situation and began to see her as just another powerless victim in a long line of them who were pretty much only trying to make their way and do what they were good at.WampaLord posted:This point will vary for everyone, but for me it was when he murdered Jane through inaction. It's an extremely strong human response to want to help/save someone in distress and you can see Walt get that response, then actively clamp it down and just stand there and watch her die. I think I agree with this, in retrospect. That seemed to be where Walter's body count shifted from self defense (like Tuco) to the selfish motivation of rationalized practicality. It was his "just this ONE time" moment which, we all know, kept escalating into "just one MORE time", and seemed to be a practical decision he made and one born of convenience rather than one motivated by true fear, desperation, self preservation or merely being in over his head. You can see that in Walter's mind, it was only way to save Jessie from junk and, even if he was right, it was the first time he willingly sacrificed and innocent. Interesting to note that after Jane, he seemed to have an easier time killing and also accepting the idea that people have to die in his line of work but he never caught on that there really is no end game. By the end, he's as greedy as all of them. Jessie, rightfully, was ready to walk with 5 million - 6 or 7 times their orginal goal - but Walter only saw how much MORE they could make.
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Jul 24, 2016 20:29
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Jerusalem posted:I really dig that show, and I think season 2 is even better than the first, I'd enjoy hearing your thoughts on it as you go through it. Yeah, it's really good through 2 episodes. I LOVE the callbacks to BB and the recurring characters so far (Mike, Tuco). I hope that keeps up. I'm interested to learn when he decided to change his name. I bet it's as simple as because it sounded jewish and rhymed with "call". Also, Micheal McKean as the weirdo cell phone paranoid dude. I haven't been able to figure out the deal with him and his former law firm; like what he did, why he's on leave and how Saul happens to be representing him and sleeping on his couch. Maybe if this thread spirals into that show I'll change the title or something. For now though, sticking to BB, I thought it was odd how EVERYONE was using flip phones (I guess because they're burners so I get why the dealers use them) and Saul even had a drawer of them but why was everyone else using them? Hank, Walt Jr., Marie, Ted...seemed like they'd have graduated to smart phones by then but I'm pretty sure they all had flip phones. This would have been 2009 or 2010 so I know smart phones were the thing by then. Wasn't the "Hello Kitty" phone that Saul gave Jessie a smart phone? If the point was that they were burners, like in The Wire, why'd he give him a smart phone when he was at his most vulnerable and under the most surveillance? Maybe I'm wrong and the other characters weren't using flips but I swear they were. Probbaly a dumb thing to get hung up on either way.
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Jul 25, 2016 00:43
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I have no idea what you guys are talking about. Maybe that's for the best.
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Jul 25, 2016 16:53
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I didn't want BB lite but DID want the connections to be used for the crossover/spin off and use some of the same characters. So far, that's working well but I'm only like 4 episodes in. I wanted to see "side stories" that were never fully developed in BB because they weren't central to that show's plot, along with some new characters, which seems like what we're getting with it.
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Jul 25, 2016 18:41
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JVNO posted:I can buy Walt exploiting Lydia's obsessive compulsion to poison her. I had absolutely no problem with that. they could have filmed it with Todd on one side, Lydia on the other and Walt's big bald head in the silouetted in the center. That actually might have been pretty cool come to think of it. edit: Well I'll be damned. Maybe it was the way it was shot from the other side of the table that made me think it was a different spot since it always seemed to me that the table was rigth up agains the window and was a two seater. edit 2: Here's why I thought this. It's a totally different table. Used to be a booth Lydia meets mike (booth): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l3owO7ryHsM Lydia meets Todd and Walt: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WgwHf2gWTyU Now it looks like an entirely different place which only raises more questions, but indeed there is only ONE packet of the sweetener. So if it was a different place, how did Walt know where Lydia would sit? Nitpicking I know. BiggerBoat fucked around with this message at 23:32 on Jul 25, 2016 |
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Jul 25, 2016 23:19
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CharlestheHammer posted:Yes it is, you can contort if you want I guess with some bullshit pseudo philosophy 101 but it's still murder. Not according to Batman. "I won't kill you. But I don't have to save you!" Last Chance posted:Lydia met Mike at Mike's favorite breakfast place where he knew the waitress (seen in Better Call Saul a couple times). You're right. I was assuming it was always the same diner.
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Jul 26, 2016 01:29
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As much as I'd hate this thread to turn into the "I hate Skyler" show, I have to admit that I disliked her a lot on my first watch but on the second viewing she seemed a lot more sympathetic to me. She's as morally ambiguous and as much of a victim as anyone other character so I'm not sure why she gets singled out for so much hatred. Ted, Hank, Marie, Gus, Jessie, Skyler, Mike, Walt...they're all likable in some ways and dislikable in others. Walt Jr. seems like the moral center/compass of the show to me. The one true innocent. Just about every character is painted in shades of grey for the most part and I think that was more or less the point of the show: "How low will you go and where do you draw the line?" Where is the line drawn between practicality, survival and morality? How much is enough? What's the difference between need and greed?
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Jul 31, 2016 19:32
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Boywhiz88 posted:One of the things I'll never get over is how well shot the entire series is. No weird inconsistencies like the wipe-zoom in The Sopranos or the slow motion shot in The Wire. Especially being relatively low budget and some of the shots they got. That's a pretty great point. Overall the level of professionalism, from the scripts to the acting to the direction, are at a really high level for just a regular cable TV show. I finished Better Call Saul Season 1. Is S2 up anywhere? It's not on Netflix and I don't have cable. On the topic of sympathetic characters and such, Better Call Saul does a remarkable job making a guy who we all know winds up as a complete scumbag remarkably relatable. I think the common theme with both of these shows is moral ambiguity; examining the specific point that people stop being victims and start being creeps. It's almost like as soon as a regular guy )or gal) starts pushing back and asserting themselves, they almost HAVE to compromise their ideals and their standards.
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Aug 1, 2016 22:04
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muscles like this? posted:Yo, the last page was kind of terrible with shitposts and bickering. Shape up. With both Walt and Saul, it seems like a case of escalation born of desperation. They both seem to get in over their heads and then convince themselves to do "just this ONE more morally questionable act" and then everything will be OK. In Walt's case, he's just completely in over his head aside from the science and for every act he takes two more problems arise. With Saul, you can see he's pretty much just been blackballed (primarily by his brother it turns out) and no one thinks he's a "real" lawyer anyway because of where he got his degree, but he never seemed "in over his head" with law. Season one actually shows he's pretty competent.
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Aug 2, 2016 15:17
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sticklefifer posted:What do you think are some of the best examples of the great acting in this show? Hank, Saul, Gus, Skyler, Marie, Jessie, Mike, Walt Jr., Gale, Hank's partner (Steve?)... I think they're all great. I have a pet peeve about bad actors and when I see it, it tends to take me right out of the movie/show I'm watching. I don't think that ever happened once on BB. I can't recall one time where I left a scene because some actor sucked.
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Aug 4, 2016 23:02
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Secular Humanist posted:I can say the only bad acting I remember from BB was the prostitute lady Wendy. Makeup team did a great job but her acting was so stiff. No, that's about right. As a recovering drug addict myself those scenes rang absolutely true.
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Aug 5, 2016 01:16
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sticklefifer posted:I was looking for specific examples, which is why I posted one in the same post you quoted. Oh, my bad. I misunderstood you. There's actually, to my mind, too many individually well acted scenes to even pick from but the one's I always think of are the ones between Walt and Skyler. The "I AM the one who knocks" scene stands out, along with a lot of the scenes of Walter trying to bullshit Skyler with his latest lie, especially the ones where we know she's no longer buying it and has resigned herself to the situation. I pointed it out before, but I think the guy who plays Hank (Dean Norris) really stands out, especially in season 4 when you can tell he's smelling a rat and can't get the scent out of his nose. The way he plays the scenes with Cranston when you can tell that he intuitively knows that Walt is being dishonest are some really great exchanges. Norris uses space and silence like a musician, letting the scene breathe and making it very believable as result. The way he emotes - not saying anything and just using his face - throughout the series is really great acting. RJ Mitte as Walt Jr. is very underrated too. It's a testament to his talent that what could have been a stereotypical "one dimensional retarded kid" is played with a lot of nuance. The way the writers treat his handicap as just one facet of his personality instead of his entire identity is delivered really well by Mitte.
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Aug 7, 2016 17:51
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Last Chance posted:It doesn't help anyone's case when they can't spell a character's name right, even when they "hate" that character so much. I've always been curious, is that misspelling on purpose or not? I know, right? Because they spell her name all the time on the show. I accidentally referred to Christopher Reeve as Christopher Reeves in a comic book movie thread and it totally invalidated my opinion. Good lord. Seriously, is this why the old thread went to poo poo? Skylar/Skyler hate? One thing that stood out to me on the rewatch was the need to have what seemed like an entire all new cast of villains introduced into the story. They handled it pretty well for the most part, and I knew right away that Todd was going to be a problem, but it was a little jarring on binge watch to suddenly have Lydia and the nazi guys so abruptly thrust into the protagonist role. Felt like it moved a little fast. Having Hank learn about Walt eased the transition somewhat though and kept an air of familiarity and consistency to the overall arc.
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Aug 10, 2016 17:30
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