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achillesforever6
Apr 23, 2012

#RXTREVOLUTIONFOREVER6


Spermgod posted:

MAKE BRAY LOOK STRONG is one of the weirder preoccupations of this forum imo
Especially since is the natural conclusion of the storyline where the face beats the evil cult man. I like how people are twisting this like Randy is the heel do people forget that Bray's character is evil incarnate?

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sticklefifer
Nov 11, 2003

TOO EASY

Spermgod posted:

MAKE BRAY LOOK STRONG is one of the weirder preoccupations of this forum imo

It's really no different than how we treat any other internet favorite, like how a lot of us want Cesaro to be pushed better too. Wyatt's just in a unique position where he's got actual depth to his character and he's on the cusp of being a long-term main event fixture if they use him better. We don't say that same kind of stuff about Owens or Styles as much because they've mostly already reached that point.

I figure Bray will end up more in a Kane position than a Taker one though.

Liquid Communism
Mar 9, 2004


Fun Shoe

Venomous posted:

Bray pinned John Cena and AJ Styles clean in the past couple of months. He has all the momentum behind him as champion, and he's actually been booked strongly up to this point. If they wanted a good, young main event heel to keep Smackdown going, it would be an incredibly good idea to have Bray retain against Randy at Wrestlemania.

That would mean showing some confidence in one of the only young main eventers they have that came up through the WWE system and isn't an indy darling.

Korelle
Sep 18, 2010


Spermgod posted:

MAKE BRAY LOOK STRONG is one of the weirder preoccupations of this forum imo

Maybe if they didn't make him such a big fat losing loser who always loses fueds then maybe people on this forum wouldn't want him to be booked a little stronger. Especially when he's a homegrown WWE talent on the cusp of being a big star.

Aphrodite
Jun 27, 2006



Bray is unnecessary now that there's a superior fat guy in shirt.

dromal phrenia
Feb 22, 2004



I think Bray's gimmick really only works with him as a dominant main eventer. If they don't want to push him like that, he shouldn't be a supernatural cult leader of monstrous men that teleports around and rants about being a god.

Having a man call himself The New Face of Fear and The Eater of Worlds and then lose all his feuds just makes him and his followers look stupid. The Undertaker gimmick would have failed hard if he was jobbing constantly. If they want him to be another midcard chump, just make him a... Rob Zombie Enthusiast or something and cut it out with the 20 minute promos about souls and demons and buzzards and dead ladies.

Under the vegetable
Nov 2, 2004

I joined the new sensation, the #RXT REVOLUTION~!



he knows...


the undertaker pretty much did job constantly when it wasnt wrestlemania

SamuraiFoochs
Jan 16, 2007



Grimey Drawer

Aphrodite posted:

Bray is unnecessary now that there's a superior fat guy in shirt.

Bray has been better in ring recently. And just as good in character work.

Faustian Bargain
Apr 12, 2014



Orton/Bray double turn is what I honestly expect to happen.

Cavauro
Jan 9, 2008

andey...


What I honestly expect to happen is that Randy Orton does the RKO out of nowhere and celebrates winning the championship opportunity as 60% of the crowd creates some form of positive reaction, 20% negative, and 20% nothing. These numbers check out so dont try to mess around with me

sticklefifer
Nov 11, 2003

TOO EASY

dromal phrenia posted:

If they want him to be another midcard chump, just make him a... Rob Zombie Enthusiast or something and cut it out with the 20 minute promos about souls and demons and buzzards and dead ladies.

Well they did give him dreads and a crust punk jacket, so you're not that far off.

Professor Funk
Aug 4, 2008

~NOW THAT'S FUCKING JETS FOOTBALL~



That Edge theme song by Rob Zombie was really bad, memba?

Defiance Industries
Jul 22, 2010

I've hacked into the most secret government and corporate secrets.



achillesforever6 posted:

Especially since is the natural conclusion of the storyline where the face beats the evil cult man. I like how people are twisting this like Randy is the heel do people forget that Bray's character is evil incarnate?

Bray hasn't done anything to Randy, whereas Randy has burned down Bray's swamp shack and maybe desecrated his sister's corpse. That's why the alignments feel so muddled.

Under the vegetable
Nov 2, 2004

I joined the new sensation, the #RXT REVOLUTION~!



he knows...


And they went off air once with Bray shaking and crying like a baby, totally beaten down, while Randy gloated over him.

Platypus Farm
Jul 12, 2003

Francis is my name, and breeding is my game. All bow before the fertile smut-god!


Defiance Industries posted:

Bray hasn't done anything to Randy, whereas Randy has burned down Bray's swamp shack and maybe desecrated his sister's corpse. That's why the alignments feel so muddled.

But people who live in swamps are naturally bad and inbred and creepy. I mean, just like jews run hollywood, these are truths that cannot be undone.

super macho dude
Aug 9, 2014



Bray is the gooniest of WWE wrestlers and that's why he's going to get jobbed out to a real alpha like Orton.

Edge & Christian
May 20, 2001

I just wanted to talk about the comics, see? All those shitty, amazing comics


Under the vegetable posted:

the undertaker pretty much did job constantly when it wasnt wrestlemania
What era of Undertaker are we talking about?

1v1 Losses Undertaker took on TV/PPV, 1990-1995
7/1/1991: Ultimate Warrior beats Undertaker in a "Body Bag Match" (WWE on MSG)
10/5/1991: Tito Santana beats Undertaker clean (in a match in Spain on a show televised only in Spain)
12/3/1991: Hulk Hogan beats Undertaker (This Tuesday in Texas PPV)
1/22/1994: Yokozuna beats Undertaker in a casket match (Royal Rumble 1994, like forty dudes run in)
6/25/1995: King Mabel beats Undertaker (King of the Ring 1995)

1v1 Losses Bray Wyatt Took on TV/PPV, 2014-2016
4/6/2014: John Cena d. Bray Wyatt (Wrestlemania 30)
6/1/2014: John Cena d. Bray Wyatt (Payback 2014)
7/20/2014: Chris Jericho d. Bray Wyatt (Battleground 2014)
12/19/2014: Dean Ambrose d. Bray Wyatt (Tribute to the Troops 2014)
3/29/2015: Undertaker d. Bray Wyatt (Wrestlemania 31)
5/19/2015: Dean Ambrose d. Bray Wyatt (Smackdown)
6/1/2015: Roman Reigns d. Bray Wyatt (Raw)
10/25/2015: Roman Reigns d. Bray Wyatt (Hell in a Cell)
8/2/2016: Dolph Ziggler d. Bray Wyatt (Smackdown)
9/11/2016: Kane d. Bray Wyatt

This isn't even factoring in any sort of tag matches, losses by DQ, getting laid out after matches, etc. Bray hasn't been in a singles match since October 25th, 2016.
He only wrestled in ten singles matches in 2016. He won four, lost two by DQ, lost one by count-out, and got pinned in the other three.

Undertaker lost with some regularity I guess in the Attitude Era, but even then it was roughly the same number (or less) than Bray has been losing, with a lot more singles matches and also being the era of VIC VENOM'S CRASH TV. The first (and only) clean loss Undertaker took on nationally broadcast TV was to Hulk Hogan after almost a year of being unstoppable, and he didn't lose definitively again for another three years when it took literally Yokozuna, Mr. Fuji, Crush, Great Kabuki, Tenryu, Bam Bam Bigelow, the Headshrinkers, Adam Bomb, Jeff Jarrett, and Diesel to defeat Undertaker. I know some of this is because Bray Wyatt is a heel but he is not a particularly effective one. Undertaker was nigh-unstoppable as a heel for a couple of years, then absolutely unstoppable unless it was Twelve on One or if you stole his urn for the next five years as a face. Then after being around for a solid decade, he started losing matches now and then against Shawn Michaels, Bret Hart, Steve Austin, etc.

Edge & Christian fucked around with this message at Mar 28, 2017 around 19:00

CubsWoo
Aug 17, 2005

Where the big boys RAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRGH FUCK YOU


^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ahahahahahahaha how about that


Under the vegetable posted:

the undertaker pretty much did job constantly when it wasnt wrestlemania

Taker's losses from his debut until the start of '96, about the same four active years Bray has in WWE (Rumble/battle royale losses excluded)

MSG show July '91 (Warrior, first loss)
WWF Telecinco (El Matador, in Spain)
Tuesday in Texas (Hogan, lost WWF title)
January '92 house show (tag w/Roberts, lost to Duggan/Savage)
January '92 house show (DQ loss, Sid)
SNME (tag w/Flair, lost via DQ to Hogan/Sid)
April '92 UK show (Sid)
September '93 MSG show (Yokozuna, WWF title match)
Rumble '94 (Yokozuna, Casket Match)
KOTR '95 (Mabel)
9/25/95 Raw (tag w/Diesel+HBK, lost to Owen/Razor/Bulldog)

That's three PPV losses, maybe nine total televised losses if all of the MSG/UK/Telecinco shows were televised locally and 11 losses overall (add in 7 more if you want to include every Rumble and Battle Royale he competed in but didn't win) from November 1990 to December 1995. He was booked in a more 50/50 way from about 1998 until his semi-retirement but they could afford to because the character was built for years to be essentially invincible outside of the absolute top echelon of the WWF. They started out doing the same thing with Bray and having him win constantly for the first six months or so, but once he ran into Cena at WM30 they took away that aura and made him just another mid-level heel who did 50/50 programs with Jericho and Ambrose and lost all the time to Roman and Cena.

El Gallinero Gros
Mar 17, 2010


Edge & Christian posted:

What era of Undertaker are we talking about?

1v1 Losses Undertaker took on TV/PPV, 1990-1995
7/1/1991: Ultimate Warrior beats Undertaker in a "Body Bag Match" (WWE on MSG)
10/5/19991: Tito Santana beats Undertaker clean (in a match in Spain on a show televised only in Spain)
12/3/1991: Hulk Hogan beats Undertaker (This Tuesday in Texas PPV)
1/22/1994: Yokozuna beats Undertaker in a casket match (Royal Rumble 1994, like forty dudes run in)
6/25/1995: King Mabel beats Undertaker (King of the Ring 1995)

1v1 Losses Bray Wyatt Took on TV/PPV, 2014-2016
4/6/2014: John Cena d. Bray Wyatt (Wrestlemania 30)
6/1/2014: John Cena d. Bray Wyatt (Payback 2014)
7/20/2014: Chris Jericho d. Bray Wyatt (Battleground 2014)
12/19/2014: Dean Ambrose d. Bray Wyatt (Tribute to the Troops 2014)
3/29/2015: Undertaker d. Bray Wyatt (Wrestlemania 31)
5/19/2015: Dean Ambrose d. Bray Wyatt (Smackdown)
6/1/2015: Roman Reigns d. Bray Wyatt (Raw)
10/25/2015: Roman Reigns d. Bray Wyatt (Hell in a Cell)
8/2/2016: Dolph Ziggler d. Bray Wyatt (Smackdown)
9/11/2016: Kane d. Bray Wyatt

This isn't even factoring in any sort of tag matches, losses by DQ, getting laid out after matches, etc. Bray hasn't been in a singles match since October 25th, 2016.
He only wrestled in ten singles matches in 2016. He won four, lost two by DQ, lost one by count-out, and got pinned in the other three.

Undertaker lost with some regularity I guess in the Attitude Era, but even then it was roughly the same number (or less) than Bray has been losing, with a lot more singles matches and also being the era of VIC VENOM'S CRASH TV

UT also lost to people like Steve Austin and Mick Foley, megastars who are on his level

rare Magic card l00k
Jan 3, 2011

Me uni a la Revolucion #RXT


el sabe ...


Losing to Mabel is worth like 50 losses.

CubsWoo
Aug 17, 2005

Where the big boys RAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRGH FUCK YOU


rare Magic card l00k posted:

Losing to Mabel is worth like 50 losses.

Taker chokeslams Mabel with the ref out, Kama runs and beats Taker up a bit, then Mabel drops the leg (I think this is the legdrop that breaks Taker's orbital bone?) and pins him. Not the biggest interference Taker's had to deal with but it wasn't anywhere near clean.

And hell, his loss to Hogan wasn't clean either, it involved Flair and Tunney fuckery on the outside, Taker getting inadvertently hit by a chair held up by Flair, he gets brained by the urn when Bearer misses Hogan, Hogan collects ashes from the loving urn and tosses them in Taker's face, and then ROLLS HIM UP. No legdrop.

CubsWoo fucked around with this message at Mar 28, 2017 around 19:14

Raskolnikov38
Mar 3, 2007

We were somewhere around Manila when the drugs began to take hold



Defiance Industries posted:

Bray hasn't done anything to Randy, whereas Randy has burned down Bray's swamp shack and maybe desecrated his sister's corpse. That's why the alignments feel so muddled.

Bray assaulted randy backstage and hosed up his knee preventing him from wrestling in the PPV he still wasn't medically cleared for after Lesnar's shoot elbows

Evil Badman
Aug 19, 2006
Do Not Trust This Man

It's not "make Bray look strong" It's "make Bray look decent." He's had feuds with top guys, then the PPV comes up and he loses. It was like clock work.

Grozz Nuy
Feb 21, 2008

Welcome to Moonside.

Wecomel to Soonmide.

Moonwel ot cosidme.

Spermgod posted:

MAKE BRAY LOOK STRONG is one of the weirder preoccupations of this forum imo

Bray is one of the youngest guys on the main roster and at least if they got behind him in a sustained way there's a chance he'd grow into the role. What is there to be gained by putting another world title on Orton at this point?

Do not even ask
Apr 8, 2008

I'll be busting the moves and I'll be busting the rhymes, we'll be busting up laughing 'cause it's
PARTY TIME!


Orton vs Lesnar II: this time Orton's head explodes like in that one scene in Scanners

Frankston
Jul 27, 2010



Grozz Nuy posted:

Bray is one of the youngest guys on the main roster and at least if they got behind him in a sustained way there's a chance he'd grow into the role. What is there to be gained by putting another world title on Orton at this point?

Cena vs Orton at Wrestlemania 34 for Cena to break the record and perfectly cap off the greatest feud of our generation.

MassRafTer
May 26, 2001

Fundamentals as sound as the WNBA

Sanguinia posted:

Bray was one of the hottest acts in wrestling when he feuded with Bryan and Cena leading up to Mania 30, pretending anything else was the case is revisionist history. It was not a case of all the heat actually being on Cena either, Bray was earning crowd reactions in his own right, not just playing out The Audience vs Cena Part 26.

That being said, his credibility has been shattered so many times now than even with the good booking and worthwhile storytelling he's gotten to be part of on Smackdown his ceiling is probably permanently damaged. Having Orton beat him might be the right call given how the crowd has been reacting. And I hate to say that because I love Bray.

If Randy is getting this title so he can have a big match with Corbin, Styles, Nakamura or... I dunno, Johnny Gargano? Someone I'm not thinking of that they're going to push strong enough and write well enough to make them an Ace-level star in 6 months like they've basically done for Corbin. If that's the reason he's getting the title, then beating Bray is probably the right decision. Bray might just be too damaged to make him retaining to do the same thing worthwhile.

Bray was very unique when he came up and after the novelty wore off, his reactions did. His promos were samey, long and dull and his matches were rarely good. This isn't all his fault, but the guy was death on the microphone for a long time.

Forceholy
Nov 10, 2007

My Voice Just Echoes Off These Walls


Frankston posted:

Cena vs Orton at Wrestlemania 34 for Cena to break the record and perfectly cap off the greatest feud of our generation.

And then he passes the touch Roman at WM35.

Liquid Communism
Mar 9, 2004


Fun Shoe

MassRafTer posted:

Bray was very unique when he came up and after the novelty wore off, his reactions did. His promos were samey, long and dull and his matches were rarely good. This isn't all his fault, but the guy was death on the microphone for a long time.

Ask yourself honestly how much of 'his promos are poo poo' is you filtering them through the lens of knowing that he won't back up any of the poo poo he's talking because he's ultimately just there to job.

CubsWoo
Aug 17, 2005

Where the big boys RAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRGH FUCK YOU


MassRafTer posted:

Bray was very unique when he came up and after the novelty wore off, his reactions did. His promos were samey, long and dull and his matches were rarely good. This isn't all his fault, but the guy was death on the microphone for a long time.

His novelty wore off about the same time he started losing matches regularly, funny how that works

E: To expand on this, there were two ways that Bray should have come out of WM30 to maintain his aura

1) Cena stays true to himself and Bray exploits that and wins a match that cements him as legit

2) Bray's corruption pierces Cena's infallibility and he snaps, beating Bray to a pulp with a chair while Bray laughs and revels in what he has made Cena become

Instead they went with option 3, Cena rejects Wyatt's temptation, does normal Cena things and wins anyway, Wyatt is left completely beaten and delegitimized and has nowhere to go but down to the 'small children singing nursery rhymes and hatsune miku ghost man' route

CubsWoo fucked around with this message at Mar 29, 2017 around 03:56

Forceholy
Nov 10, 2007

My Voice Just Echoes Off These Walls


Super No Vacancy posted:

if the title can only go on rising stars i hope you enjoy a promotion with no champions

If titles only go on part timers and veterans who don't need them, I hope you enjoy a promotion with a stagnating roster.

El Gallinero Gros
Mar 17, 2010


Liquid Communism posted:

Ask yourself honestly how much of 'his promos are poo poo' is you filtering them through the lens of knowing that he won't back up any of the poo poo he's talking because he's ultimately just there to job.

This is actually a REALLY valid point. The segment at WM where he gets in Rock's face and claims he's not gonna knock on the door of opportunity, but kick it down, then he backs down immediately and the Rock mows through a henchman did nobody any favors. Same for the " I will corrupt you, Cena" thing, and so forth.

The reason Kevin Sullivan and Raven worked in similar gimmicks is because when they made threats, they often backed them up. Even if they needed their entire crew to accomplish those things. Quick example: Raven promises to get his title back from the Sandman, and is willing to do a barbed wire match to do so. And he wins, despite being a bloody mess.

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Djarum
Apr 1, 2004

I promise, that one day, everything's going to be better for you.


Soiled Meat

The biggest problem with the modern WWE booking is they flatten everyone out with a few glaring exceptions that it ruins everyone. A perfect example of this is Nakamura, a guy who last year was white hot and arguably the biggest star in the business. Now a year later he is just another guy on a developmental brand having a match that most fans are not that interested in.

Now this I would imagine is by design, one has to remember the WWE loves to try to control who they feel is the biggest names and most popular on their product. Sadly they have not realize that in 2017 the business has changed drastically and the way they were able to manipulate their audience in the past just doesn't work anymore. They have no casual audience to speak of and the die hards are too smart and connected to what happens backstage for the old stuff to work. I think on a certain level Hunter realizes this and has tried to usher in certain things that VKM would never do (for example Kevin Steen/Owens champion) but with with Vince still calling the shots and a lot of guys who are old guard that hasn't quite realized the business has changed it is a slow and hard evolution.

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