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muscles like this! posted:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-bfAVpuko5o This reminds me. After JL: Dark, I wondered why DC hadn't decided to just animate Stormwatch/The Authority yet.
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Feb 22, 2021 15:06
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Superman: The Animated Series comes to HBO Max on March 17th in HD. While not as strong as Batman it still has some good episodes.
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Feb 24, 2021 18:02
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I mean, personally I think it's absolutely as good. Even better.
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Feb 24, 2021 18:02
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X-O posted:I mean, personally I think it's absolutely as good. Even better. Pshaw.
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Feb 24, 2021 18:14
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The only reason it's not thought of in the same light is because it didn't redefine Superman for a generation like Batman did. And that is because Superman didn't need redefining as until recently his character has been portrayed consistently across mediums. That and because of the villains. Nobody can match Batman's villains and that was a bigger part of the animated series being more popular than anything else. Superman also didn't last long enough to have a disappointing retooling so that's a plus. But on the other hand it also didn't last long enough to produce a really good spinoff.
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Feb 24, 2021 18:19
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I think they did pretty well with trying to make Superman’s villains less silly or at least consistent with the aesthetic and setting they were making, even if it didn’t always work.
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Feb 24, 2021 18:22
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The Superman cartoon has the best portrayal of Lobo ever, so it does have that going for it.
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Feb 24, 2021 18:34
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It didn't redefine Superman but it redefined Lex Luthor https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PTfiXcN7-NY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1N_kAC4wUZ4 Assepoester fucked around with this message at 18:38 on Feb 24, 2021 |
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Feb 24, 2021 18:35
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Byrne (and I'm not even sure about that, but that's the impression I'm under) might've created evil businessman Lex but the animated crew made him sing, as a concept
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Feb 24, 2021 19:15
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X-O posted:The only reason it's not thought of in the same light is because it didn't redefine Superman for a generation like Batman did. And that is because Superman didn't need redefining as until recently his character has been portrayed consistently across mediums. That and because of the villains. Nobody can match Batman's villains and that was a bigger part of the animated series being more popular than anything else. There's a couple great episodes but it's the weakest DCAU show by a mile (unless you rightfully count New Adventures as a separate show). None of the villains had the pathos of Batman, and Superman was never really explored emotionally or challenged as a person beyond the surface level until the loving finale. They also seemingly gave up on Metropolis having a unique aesthetic the way Gotham did partway through the show, which is incredibly lame. Like name a non-Luthor episode that was a genuine classic that you can compare to the heights of BTAS. The one where there's a cult in Smallville? The one with the toyman? The 12th time they brought Mxlyptz back? The one that's Superman 2 but not as good? Don't get me wrong it's a good show, and like the entire DCAU it's perfectly cast, but you might as well be trying to tell me X-men Evolution is better than Batman Beyond.
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Feb 24, 2021 19:39
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Late Mr Kent, I don't like her costume but the introduction of Supergirl was great, as were pretty much all the 4th World episodes, the second Metallo episode, the first Mxyzptlk, the Batman team-ups that aren't World's Finest, the Parasite/Live-Wire team up. Mxyzptlk is only in 2 episodes and the second episode he's in is mostly a Bizarro episode.
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Feb 24, 2021 19:49
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Superman the Animated Series also was much less dark, which means that a lot of adults who pride themselves on their maturity have a harder time enjoying a fun and colorful cartoon.The United States posted:It didn't redefine Superman but it redefined Lex Luthor I've seen a couple of attempts to return Lex Luthor to his roots as more of a mad scientist, but none of them can compare to the smug powerful businessman. Weird that there aren't more villains like that, it's so cathartic to see confrontations like that. A lot of depictions of CEOs these days have even been dominated by Steve Jobs and the myth of a brilliant industrialists who somehow leads from the front, but while Luthor is capable, he's much more comfortable paying others to do the work for him. I think the animated series also invented Mercy and Livewire, who are pretty iconic even if they didn't take off like Harley Quinn. Lurdiak posted:There's a couple great episodes but it's the weakest DCAU show by a mile (unless you rightfully count New Adventures as a separate show). I feel like Justice League might be my least favorite out of the DCAU. It's fine, but there's kind of a lack of focus. You get very little of the characters' personal lives, and there isn't really the pretense towards making the setting a character of its own with returning civilians. And then Unlimited had more drama and had more of an ongoing plot, but with a sea of characters, most don't get any more than an episode or two. And I don't think you really get a chance to see anybody's personal life.
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Feb 24, 2021 20:22
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Lurdiak posted:There's a couple great episodes but it's the weakest DCAU show by a mile (unless you rightfully count New Adventures as a separate show). None of the villains had the pathos of Batman, and Superman was never really explored emotionally or challenged as a person beyond the surface level until the loving finale. They also seemingly gave up on Metropolis having a unique aesthetic the way Gotham did partway through the show, which is incredibly lame. The three-part pilot is probably the strongest start of any of the DCAU shows. It does a good job hinting at the range of stories that could be covered and plants some story ideas for later episodes, and it's maybe the best version of the Superman's parents story and the best Jor-el I've seen.
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Feb 24, 2021 20:30
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Grant Morrison considers Brainiac from the animated series to be the quintessential one, and I agree. Was that episode where Superman tries to stop that Kirbyesque giant from stomping Metropolis as good as I remember? Dan Turpin getting killed is one of the most iconic moments from the DCAU.
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Feb 24, 2021 20:50
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Oooh. Time to really make people mad. OK here goes: The cartoon's theme is better than the John Williams theme.
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Feb 24, 2021 20:52
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X-O posted:Oooh. Time to really make people mad. OK here goes: The cartoon's theme is better than the John Williams theme. The MoS theme is better than the Williams theme.
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Feb 24, 2021 21:30
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I might be willing to agree to that but didn't want to open that can of worms. Either way the animated series theme is the best Superman theme. The only one that I believe rivals it is the Fleischer one.
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Feb 24, 2021 21:36
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X-O posted:Oooh. Time to really make people mad. OK here goes: The cartoon's theme is better than the John Williams theme. It's a close run thing for me, I do agree with... I think it was Burnett?... who said a proper Superman theme needs to be able to let you sing his name to it. Which both the Walker and Williams ones do. I think Superman TAS is great as well, and I think the show's versions of Lois and Lana are severely underrated. (And it's a crime that that Dana Delaney never got a shot to play Lois in live-action).
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Feb 24, 2021 21:40
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Rhyno posted:The MoS theme is better than the Williams theme. Are you talking about Flight? Because Flight owns.
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Feb 24, 2021 21:42
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I loved Superman TAS as a kid and the rewatch on DVD was great too. The highlights are the premier episodes, Worlds Finest, and the finale, but there was a bunch of real winners like The Late Mr Kent (the detective figuring out his secret identity as the gas chamber begins to fill is as dark as anything in Batman TAS) and the Supergirl intro episodes. Also that one with Braniac trapping Lex Luthor in the basement of his own building, that one is incredibly tense. It's funny that they were even able to retcon it into a plotline of Justice League. It also has more of a narrative throughline than Batman or Batman Beyond. It slowly works up to Dark Side throughout the show, setting up the kind of continuity we'd see in Justice League. Also probably the best depiction of Lois in any medium.
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Feb 24, 2021 21:43
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X-O posted:I might be willing to agree to that but didn't want to open that can of worms. Either way the animated series theme is the best Superman theme. The only one that I believe rivals it is the Fleischer one. in one of the commentaries to Superman, Bruce Timm revealed the key to a great Superman theme is that you can sing the word "Superman" along to it, it works with Fleisher, John Williams, and the animated one. I haven't tried it with the MoS theme.
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Feb 24, 2021 21:46
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Don't get me wrong I love the Williams theme. But Superman has loads of great themes. I also think the full version of the Williams theme done by John Ottman in Superman Returns is my favorite version of that theme. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C02Dn5OeeuE But this is just undeniably the best. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iv1foTnXFaU X-O fucked around with this message at 21:50 on Feb 24, 2021 |
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Feb 24, 2021 21:47
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TAS actually pulls off something most versions struggle with, which is how to make Clark getting the name work. gently caress, compare it to Lois & Clark, where it comes from Teri Hatcher sighing "...suuuper..." like she's daydreaming while doodling hearts on her 9th grade math book. And TAS has Dana Delaney's Lois just directly make the Friedrich Nietszche reference.
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Feb 24, 2021 21:50
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Superman TAS has some bangers. I can't call it better than Batman. I actually kinda prefer JL to JLU in a lot of places, because the smaller cast gave them more focus.
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Feb 24, 2021 23:38
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Open Marriage Night posted:Grant Morrison considers Brainiac from the animated series to be the quintessential one, and I agree. That episode is an extended animation flex/Fleischer homage and it was indeed rad. X-O posted:Oooh. Time to really make people mad. OK here goes: The cartoon's theme is better than the John Williams theme. You can argue it's better but it doesn't stick in your head nearly as much. Ccs posted:It also has more of a narrative throughline than Batman or Batman Beyond. It slowly works up to Dark Side throughout the show, setting up the kind of continuity we'd see in Justice League. Nothing in Superman or JLA/JLU tops Darkseid's first meeting with Superman. It might be the perfect encapsulation of his character in any medium. Even when he's wrecking the entire planet he's still not as badass or intimidating as he is in this scene. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bw68uJ8DREg Lurdiak fucked around with this message at 00:52 on Feb 25, 2021 |
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Feb 25, 2021 00:47
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The TAS theme is great, but the Williams theme comes from maybe the best movie composer of all time smack dab in the middle of maybe the best run of film scores of all time (it's seriously crazy what Williams did between like 1975 and 1984). It's, imo, the perfect piece of superhero music.
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Feb 25, 2021 02:16
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X-O posted:The only reason it's not thought of in the same light is because it didn't redefine Superman for a generation like Batman did. And that is because Superman didn't need redefining as until recently his character has been portrayed consistently across mediums. That and because of the villains. Nobody can match Batman's villains and that was a bigger part of the animated series being more popular than anything else. I think the things that keep Superman from reaching the heights of it's predecessor are pretty straightforward. With the exception of Luthor and Darkseid (and I guess Lobo) his villains are just not as entertaining. As good as the show can looks, it never quite reaches some of those especially gorgeous early BTAS episodes like Heart of Ice and Feat of Clay. And the shorter overall episode count means it's got fewer chances for jaw-droppingly awesome bits, those mostly being the more standout Darkseid episodes and the World's Finest crossover. It's still good, great even (best Lois), but BTAS (and JLU) are magic. A more lavish production probably would've helped, as doing really crazy high concept scifi poo poo helps a Superman cartoon come alive, whereas Batman can survive more on dialog and moody looking aesthetics. Which is one of the reasons I'm so frustrated with the DC DTV movies having such a... thoroughly orthodox set of aesthetics.
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Feb 25, 2021 02:33
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howe_sam posted:The TAS theme is great, but the Williams theme comes from maybe the best movie composer of all time smack dab in the middle of maybe the best run of film scores of all time (it's seriously crazy what Williams did between like 1975 and 1984). It's, imo, the perfect piece of superhero music. Being made by the same person who made a lot of other great music doesn't make an individual piece of music better. Like how much more am I supposed to appreciate Wings, just because Paul McCartney was in the Beatles? I'm not saying Wings were bad, just they produced music that wasn't as good as the best music or as good as the best music Paul McCartney made.
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Feb 25, 2021 02:43
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But Wings came after McCartney's big successes, my point is that Superman is during Williams's peak. The year before Superman you have Star Wars and Close Encounters. Two years after that is Empire, then the first Indy movie, then ET. It's a historic run of great movie music that starts with Jaws. Even if I think the themes for Leia, Lois and Marion all kind of run together.
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Feb 25, 2021 03:28
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I'll let you all continue Super-chat (it's fine), but while The New Batman Adventures is objectively not as good as B:TAS, TNBA was also amazing. So many good episodes, and I personally prefer the streamlined designs and aesthetic (yes, even the Joker-though the mid-way version used in Justice League is definitely the best). If we're counting it as a whole separate show, I'd still put it as the second best DCAU show after B:TAS.
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Feb 25, 2021 03:50
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OnimaruXLR posted:I think the things that keep Superman from reaching the heights of it's predecessor are pretty straightforward. With the exception of Luthor and Darkseid (and I guess Lobo) his villains are just not as entertaining. As good as the show can looks, it never quite reaches some of those especially gorgeous early BTAS episodes like Heart of Ice and Feat of Clay. And the shorter overall episode count means it's got fewer chances for jaw-droppingly awesome bits, those mostly being the more standout Darkseid episodes and the World's Finest crossover. I will say one thing I appreciated about the Superman DC series was they seem to have come up with a good answer to the invincibility problem for Superman. Basically they went with "just because it can't kill or injure him doesn't mean it doesn't HURT" and it's amazing how just that made what he did more heroic considering he was constantly having to shake off being pounded to get things done. I also liked that approach gave the bad guys options beyond just glowing green rocks, especially if their goal was something besides killing Superman himself. Blowing him up or whatnot might not kill him, but if you knock him around enough you might be able to get away/do your evil deed, so there were still stakes even if death wasn't on the table. They did admittedly take it a little too far in Justice League to almost Worf levels, though at least in JLU they started backing off a bit there.
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Feb 25, 2021 05:02
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Lurdiak posted:There's a couple great episodes but it's the weakest DCAU show by a mile (unless you rightfully count New Adventures as a separate show). The Zeta Project is laughing at you.
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Feb 25, 2021 05:13
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Nanigans posted:I'll let you all continue Super-chat (it's fine), but while The New Batman Adventures is objectively not as good as B:TAS, TNBA was also amazing. So many good episodes, and I personally prefer the streamlined designs and aesthetic (yes, even the Joker-though the mid-way version used in Justice League is definitely the best). If we're counting it as a whole separate show, I'd still put it as the second best DCAU show after B:TAS. 
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Feb 25, 2021 06:31
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honestly while BTAS has the higher highs I think Brave and the Bold might actually be the most consistently good Batman series. There's a fair amount of TAS episodes that are just...not great, usually when they come up with their own villain because holy moley for how well they reinvented most of Batman's rogues gallery do the actual new villains in that show just suck out loud outside of Baby Doll.
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Feb 25, 2021 06:37
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It might be nostalgia (I actually watched BTAS as a child, Brave and the Bold I've only ever tried to watch as an adult) but I could never really get into Brave and the Bold.
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Feb 25, 2021 06:44
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Blockhouse posted:honestly while BTAS has the higher highs I think Brave and the Bold might actually be the most consistently good Batman series. There's a fair amount of TAS episodes that are just...not great, usually when they come up with their own villain because holy moley for how well they reinvented most of Batman's rogues gallery do the actual new villains in that show just suck out loud outside of Baby Doll. What, you don't like Jazzman and the Red Claw?  Looking at a list of original villains though, some of them aren't too bad. I remember Lock-Up was okay, Harley of course was great. The Phantasm (do we count the Phantasm?) was great, and I remember liking H.A.R.D.A.C.
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Feb 25, 2021 06:49
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Vandar posted:What, you don't like Jazzman and the Red Claw? Mr. Freeze existed before BTAS but pretty much everything about him after the cartoon was based on the cartoon and not previous incarnations. And while you say "Harley of course was great," that's really underselling her. I struggle to think of a villain introduced since her that has had the same cultural impact, in any comic book company.
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Feb 25, 2021 07:01
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Oh yeah I thought Harley went without saying. But then you've got stuff like the ninja (who the show kept saying was a samurai?), the Dickensian pickpocket training sewer children, the dude who was just invisible, the guy who turned Catwoman into a furry, and the roughly five thousand near identical generic mobster guys
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Feb 25, 2021 07:04
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Skwirl posted:Mr. Freeze existed before BTAS but pretty much everything about him after the cartoon was based on the cartoon and not previous incarnations. I undersold it because I know a ton of people don't like Harley. I love Harley, and I do wish Superman TAS's Livewire had made more of an impact. She was fun.
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Feb 25, 2021 07:12
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Vandar posted:The Zeta Project is laughing at you. Oh that doesn't count and you know it. Nanigans posted:I'll let you all continue Super-chat (it's fine), but while The New Batman Adventures is objectively not as good as B:TAS, TNBA was also amazing. So many good episodes, and I personally prefer the streamlined designs and aesthetic (yes, even the Joker-though the mid-way version used in Justice League is definitely the best). If we're counting it as a whole separate show, I'd still put it as the second best DCAU show after B:TAS. Aside from doing annoying things like erasing the separation between public-facing Bruce Wayne, Batman, and the real Bruce Wayne, they threw a lot of character arcs in the dumpster. Harley Quinn, Mr. Freeze, Catwoman... Blockhouse posted:honestly while BTAS has the higher highs I think Brave and the Bold might actually be the most consistently good Batman series. There's a fair amount of TAS episodes that are just...not great, usually when they come up with their own villain because holy moley for how well they reinvented most of Batman's rogues gallery do the actual new villains in that show just suck out loud outside of Baby Doll. I wish Brave and the Bold could've gotten one or two more seasons. It was such a good show. Blockhouse posted:Oh yeah I thought Harley went without saying. Don't you talk smack about the mobsters!!! Those were some great episodes. Sure, those guys won't sell any lunchboxes, but they were more interesting foils to Batman than "Joker's back and this time he's poisoned uh.... dog food?" Ditto that ninja. The fact that he had a grudge with Bruce Wayne specifically and was completely unimpressed by all the Batman trappings made the dynamic between them really interesting. Plus the fact that he was legit a better fighter than Batman. Lurdiak fucked around with this message at 15:09 on Feb 25, 2021 |
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Feb 25, 2021 15:02
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