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JT Smiley
Mar 3, 2006
Thats whats up!

On the plus side, it sounds like Batman and Joker crush mad pussy bro!

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Franchescanado
Feb 23, 2013


If it wasn't for disappointment,
I wouldn't have any appointment.





Grimey Drawer

The more I think about it, pretty much every change/original content/exploration of the story is about sexualizing Barbara/Batgirl. I can't think of one that DOESN'T sexualize Batgirl, except for fully realizing the Joker's song into a musical number with circus freaks, which Mark Hamill nailed.

I don't think that exploring sexuality in the Batman universe is even a major offence, if done well with sincerity and thematic meaning, but NOT in the context of The Killing Joke. Nothing in the story, besides implications, really necessitates it.

Also, with adding more surprise sex/sexual trauma overtones, the story somehow was still underwhelming. The Killing Joke is loving bleak, heartbreaking, cruel.

For example, a major emotional crux of the story, Joker's backstory of finding out his pregnant wife is hit by a car and has died immediately after selling out to become a criminal to support her was flat. Even Mark Hamill brought nothing to the reading. He just mopes, "Oh, guess she's dead...Anywayyyy!... and then the scene moves on.

Another: Gordon being forced to repeatedly watch pictures of his nude wounded daughter covered in blood and in various sexual poses after possibly being raped, despite the horror of the situation, isn't horrific. It's like they relied on the fact that it's supposed to be disturbing to actually disturb people, instead of using cinematic techniques to wreck your heart.

But instead, it's just kind of flat.

Android Blues
Nov 22, 2008



Franchescanado posted:

I don't think that exploring sexuality in the Batman universe is even a major offence, if done well with sincerity and thematic meaning, but NOT in the context of The Killing Joke. Nothing in the story, besides implications, really necessitates it.

Yeah I mean, if done well, it seems like a touch-and-go risky thing but I'm not necessarily opposed to the concept in itself. There's probably a story out there somewhere you can tell where Batman Has Sex is germane and moving. This though feels like a case of wrong story, wildly wrong tone.

Dark_Tzitzimine
Oct 9, 2012

by R. Guyovich


Dark_Tzitzimine posted:

Supposed leak of JLD that was doing the rounds yesterday.



So, is legit

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cddLDL_kKOU

They got Matt Ryan back to voice Constantine!

site
Apr 6, 2007

Trans pride, Worldwide
Bitch


Franchescanado posted:

Another: Gordon being forced to repeatedly watch pictures of his nude wounded daughter covered in blood and in various sexual poses after possibly being raped, despite the horror of the situation, isn't horrific. It's like they relied on the fact that it's supposed to be disturbing to actually disturb people, instead of using cinematic techniques to wreck your heart.

But instead, it's just kind of flat.

I watched it yesterday and this scene in particular really hit me with how much I wasn't taking the story seriously because of the 90s kid cartoon art being used. Like, intellectually I knew this is something that should be horrifying to look at but it didn't look horrifying. Tangent to that, for a movie they're releasing in theaters the animation isn't all that hot either.

And yeah, everything about that first half-hour is bad.

site fucked around with this message at 19:53 on Jul 26, 2016

Franchescanado
Feb 23, 2013


If it wasn't for disappointment,
I wouldn't have any appointment.





Grimey Drawer

site posted:

I watched it yesterday and this scene in particular really hit me with how much I wasn't taking the story seriously because of the 90s kid cartoon art being used. Like, intellectually I knew this is something that should be horrifying to look at but it didn't look horrifying. Tangent to that, for a movie they're releasing in theaters the animation isn't all that hot either.

And yeah, everything about that first half-hour is bad.

The animation was very strange. I guess the intention was to match the 90's aesthetic, because of the cast they've got backing it, and it being an iconic look. But...That's a kids show from an era where television animation wasn't hitting a strong stride. Why tell a story that is ridiculously dark with an aesthetic for children? Nostalgia? But why? Does the audience that loved the 90's cartoon really want to see The Joker drag a nude Gordon around on a chain collar? It doesn't feel like an attempt at capturing the feeling of the 90's cartoon. If anything, the idea was to take that show's limits and stretch it to a breaking point. If it's to soften the blow of the disturbing story, that's also a weird choice, because they added a bunch of sexuality and sexual trauma! And it also abandons the realistic art of the comic, which is fantastic and holds most of the power and weight of the story.

If you have characters wearing capes, why make a point of shots of capes fluttering in the wind, taking up a fourth of the screen, only to have it choppy? Why make the frame rate so rigid and then have everyone bouncing around? The actual hand-to-hand combat scenes were very well done, but this story isn't really about the fight scenes.

They really did a good job with the voice actors, even if Conroy phoned it in a bit. The music was pretty good throughout. Sound design was loud, but good. But if you're selling an animated movie, why skimp on the animation? If your budget is limiting your animation, take out the musical number.

I'm not one of those people that hate adaptations, either. This was just really muddled story telling with a great potential squandered away from weird choices.

Unmature
May 9, 2008


Saw the movie in theaters last night because my dad is an idiot. Every scene with Barbara is there to exemplify how cockthirsty she is. The audience applauded at the end.

ToastyPotato
Jun 23, 2005

CONVICTED OF DISPLAYING HIS PEANUTS IN PUBLIC

Ultimately, we can cringe and call out the creepiness all we want, but these guys know their audience. This is the industry that continues shoving very large breasted, half naked women in sexy poses whenever they get the chance, regardless if it makes any sense at all, and when called on it, consistently jump through hoops trying to justify it, all while any mature discussion is drowned out by whining manchildren who feel threatened that people are trying to take away their fap material.

Franchescanado
Feb 23, 2013


If it wasn't for disappointment,
I wouldn't have any appointment.





Grimey Drawer

ToastyPotato posted:

Ultimately, we can cringe and call out the creepiness all we want, but these guys know their audience. This is the industry that continues shoving very large breasted, half naked women in sexy poses whenever they get the chance, regardless if it makes any sense at all, and when called on it, consistently jump through hoops trying to justify it, all while any mature discussion is drowned out by whining manchildren who feel threatened that people are trying to take away their fap material.

And by cringing and calling out the creepiness and pointing fingers and making the creators jump through their hoops, we are doing our part to make future Batgirls less cockthirsty, and better stories for the fans, slowly but surely.

That is my optimism, please don't hurt it, it's fragile.

ToastyPotato
Jun 23, 2005

CONVICTED OF DISPLAYING HIS PEANUTS IN PUBLIC

Franchescanado posted:

And by cringing and calling out the creepiness and pointing fingers and making the creators jump through their hoops, we are doing our part to make future Batgirls less cockthirsty, and better stories for the fans, slowly but surely.

That is my optimism, please don't hurt it, it's fragile.

Hey man, I'm with you. It's just tiresome at this point. At least this is mostly on DC now these days though. So maybe we've accomplished SOMETHING?

Calaveron
Aug 7, 2006



I'm just glad that people on the internet are finally being vocal about the bad habits of comic book and comic book-related products. Surely definite, positive change will happen immediately.

Roth
Jul 9, 2016


I watched it last night with some friends.

I don't understand how anybody thought the first half hour was a good idea, and it only makes what happens to Barbara even more gross.

The rest of it felt like a really weak adaptation, speaking as someone who likes The Killing Joke despite hating how hard Barbara gets shafted in the story. None of the moments that really stuck out to me from the comic felt like they were delivered half as well, and I don't think the story being animated added anything to it. At least Kevin Conroy and Mark Hamill delivered good performances for their respective characters, but it's really wasted here. I really wouldn't call this movie good at all, and how sex is used here along with how bad I already thought Justice League vs Teen Titans was, I feel really pessimistic about the Judas Contract movie.

Ciprian Maricon
Feb 27, 2006





So am I crazy that I walked away feeling that Batman was a creepy sex offender in that first half hour?

The movie characterizes Barbara as a love-stricken tween who is obsessed with the cool English teacher at her middle school, it also apes the DCAU style pretty hard, which sucked for a lot of reasons but also had the side effect that Barbara looked a lot like she did in BTAS and still read to me as a teenager. Maybe I'm overreacting but if you absolutely have to write a story where these two characters gently caress maybe you should take pains to distance your heroine from her teenage years as a side-kick to the hero she's gonna bone.

Ciprian Maricon fucked around with this message at 21:34 on Jul 26, 2016

Franchescanado
Feb 23, 2013


If it wasn't for disappointment,
I wouldn't have any appointment.





Grimey Drawer

Here's an interesting idea:

The Joker's whole plan is to show Batman the damages and effects of "One Bad Day". But the worst thing that happens to Batman is being thrown a poo poo-ton of guilt for his actions and inability to prevent the dangers in his life for others. Considering Batman is a broken man-child who displays too many sociopathic tendencies to go unnoticed, he probably doesn't even feel the guilt. Recognizes it in a mental capacity, being aware that he should feel guilt, sure, but if he actually feels it...Who knows.

Gordon receives a rougher side of the trade: He has to see pictures of his daughter being destroyed, and then must relive that moment at the hands of the most vile criminal he faces regularly. He is caged like an animal. The comics imply that he has probably also received sexual damages by the Joker's goons. His defense of Batman is called into question, as does his hypocrisy, his life mission, and his idea of "Law". But in the end, it is implied that sticking to his morals will bring him through this dark period of his life, because it will not allow him to succumb to his fears of the world.

Barbara's life is ruined. She has now been through physical, mental, emotional, and sexual trauma. She is no longer able to walk. She can no longer fight crime, her main calling in life, or spend time with her creepy unhealthy crush.

So why is it that, given an opportunity to change and explore the ideas of "One Bad Day" through two well-known characters, that we ignore the real victims of the story, who actually are the receiving end of the Bad Day and all it's implications, and instead concentrate on the sociopathic spectator, Batman?

And with that opportunity, why the gently caress would you animate a first act of Barbara trying to and succeeding in loving Batman instead?

ToastyPotato
Jun 23, 2005

CONVICTED OF DISPLAYING HIS PEANUTS IN PUBLIC

Franchescanado posted:

Here's an interesting idea:

The Joker's whole plan is to show Batman the damages and effects of "One Bad Day". But the worst thing that happens to Batman is being thrown a poo poo-ton of guilt for his actions and inability to prevent the dangers in his life for others. Considering Batman is a broken man-child who displays too many sociopathic tendencies to go unnoticed, he probably doesn't even feel the guilt. Recognizes it in a mental capacity, being aware that he should feel guilt, sure, but if he actually feels it...Who knows.

Gordon receives a rougher side of the trade: He has to see pictures of his daughter being destroyed, and then must relive that moment at the hands of the most vile criminal he faces regularly. He is caged like an animal. The comics imply that he has probably also received sexual damages by the Joker's goons. His defense of Batman is called into question, as does his hypocrisy, his life mission, and his idea of "Law". But in the end, it is implied that sticking to his morals will bring him through this dark period of his life, because it will not allow him to succumb to his fears of the world.

Barbara's life is ruined. She has now been through physical, mental, emotional, and sexual trauma. She is no longer able to walk. She can no longer fight crime, her main calling in life, or spend time with her creepy unhealthy crush.

So why is it that, given an opportunity to change and explore the ideas of "One Bad Day" through two well-known characters, that we ignore the real victims of the story, who actually are the receiving end of the Bad Day and all it's implications, and instead concentrate on the sociopathic spectator, Batman?

And with that opportunity, why the gently caress would you animate a first act of Barbara trying to and succeeding in loving Batman instead?

Because the comic industry is still filled with creepy dudes who fantasize about cartoon women in creepy sexualized situations.

FilthyImp
Sep 30, 2002

Nope



There was some BATMAN FUCKS in R.I.P. and that was ok. It even became plot relevant later on. But that's something that happened in his Bruce Wayne sphere of things.


Franchescanado posted:

When Batman interviews the prostitutes, they say that before the news reveals the Joker's escaped, he's already been to see them and hosed all of them, which makes them giggle. Batman asks why they're laughing, and they say "He just seems to like having a good time."

Joker horny AF
Yeah, as someone noted Azz had this kind of be a point of his otherwise very well done Joker mini. It's supposed to show what a loving bastard Joker is because he just up and rapes the significant other of one of his valued goons, while the guy stands there and watches it. But the thing is there are more depraved ways to show that other than surprise sex, and the actual acknowledgement of the Joker as some rapist horny guy knocks his psycopathy down quite a few pegs.

SonicRulez
Aug 6, 2013

GOTTA GO FIST


I'm really glad I can come here. Talking to my friends about the movie on Facebook has been....well, it's been really disheartening. I had a fellow tell me there's no sexism in The Killing Joke. I mean you can like TKJ, I do, but...come on. COME ON!

Antifa Turkeesian
Aug 20, 2006



Broken Cake

Seems like both the edgiest thing and the thing most likely to lead to respectful treatment of the victim by the story would be to have the Joker surprise sex Commissioner Gordon. Or any male character, I guess.

haitfais
Aug 7, 2005

I am offended by your ham, sir.

Franchescanado posted:

But...That's a kids show from an era where television animation wasn't hitting a strong stride.

You're joking, right?

Ciprian Maricon posted:

So am I crazy that I walked away feeling that Batman was a creepy sex offender in that first half hour?

The movie characterizes Barbara as a love-stricken tween who is obsessed with the cool English teacher at her middle school, it also apes the DCAU style pretty hard, which sucked for a lot of reasons but also had the side effect that Barbara looked a lot like she did in BTAS and still read to me as a teenager. Maybe I'm overreacting but if you absolutely have to write a story where these two characters gently caress maybe you should take pains to distance your heroine from her teenage years as a side-kick to the hero she's gonna bone.

That's actually the only thing that isn't wrong with this. To the best of my knowledge, Barbara was never portrayed as being younger than college age, including in the animated series. Keep in mind that even Robin was already in college by the first season. That being said, Batman doesn't need to be a statutory rapist for this subplot to be all kinds of hosed up.

Roth
Jul 9, 2016


Jack Gladney posted:

Seems like both the edgiest thing and the thing most likely to lead to respectful treatment of the victim by the story would be to have the Joker surprise sex Commissioner Gordon. Or any male character, I guess.

It's not sexist because I hate men and women equally.

JT Smiley
Mar 3, 2006
Thats whats up!

SonicRulez posted:

I'm really glad I can come here. Talking to my friends about the movie on Facebook has been....well, it's been really disheartening. I had a fellow tell me there's no sexism in The Killing Joke. I mean you can like TKJ, I do, but...come on. COME ON!

I had a co-worker tell me she loved the movie yesterday, even said the sex scene was hot. No joke, her exact words.

ToastyPotato
Jun 23, 2005

CONVICTED OF DISPLAYING HIS PEANUTS IN PUBLIC

JT Smiley posted:

I had a co-worker tell me she loved the movie yesterday, even said the sex scene was hot. No joke, her exact words.

Did she like 50 Shades of Grey? Because lots of women did. Also Twilight, both of which were filled with some bad relationship ideals.

JT Smiley
Mar 3, 2006
Thats whats up!

ToastyPotato posted:

Did she like 50 Shades of Grey? Because lots of women did. Also Twilight, both of which were filled with some bad relationship ideals.

Harley Quinn is her favorite character......

BIG HEADLINE
Jun 13, 2006

Make your move...'cause mine's gonna be ugly.

Azzarello did this:



...so I'm not really shocked that he can't write women very well.

ZDar Fan
Oct 15, 2012



BIG HEADLINE posted:

Azzarello did this:



...so I'm not really shocked that he can't write women very well.

...did that woman just get a vagina?

Toshimo
Aug 23, 2012

Must be fuckin' nice!


ZDar Fan posted:

...did that woman just get a vagina?

That's Wonder Woman and Persephone (Hades' first wife) bickering as Diana prepares to marry Hades after being shot through the heart by Hades using one of Eros' Love Guns.

:comics:

Not pictured: Persephone bleeds all over the room while helping Diana get ready because she’s slit her own wrists up the arm. Not that you can escape the Underworld by killing yourself. It's just to show how edgy she is or something.

BIG HEADLINE
Jun 13, 2006

Make your move...'cause mine's gonna be ugly.

ZDar Fan posted:

...did that woman just get a vagina?

It's from Azzarello's N52 Wonder Woman #9. Hades, depicted as a no-one-understands-me-so-the-world-must-burn manchild, shoots Diana in the heart with Eros' twin Desert Eagles filled with love bullets (I poo poo you not), forcing Diana to marry him out of compulsion. While she's being prepared by demonic handmaidens, one of them implies he might gently caress the wound.

Ultimately, Diana head-fakes Hades by going along with it just long enough to let him know that the love bullets only work if the person firing them truly loves himself. So yeah, I'm kind of betting the first half everyone hates is more on Azzarello's shoulders.

hup
Feb 25, 2006

ME IRL


The love guns rule because their muzzle flashes are hearts.

Skwirl
May 13, 2007

The 'blood babe with the silicone chest, 200-dollar haircut, and a closet full of the latest fashions.

Dark_Tzitzimine posted:

So, is legit

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cddLDL_kKOU

They got Matt Ryan back to voice Constantine!

It's definitely gonna be poo poo, just because there have been zero good DC flicks with that animation style, but I'm definitely gonna watch it for another dose of Matt Ryan as Constantine.

Skwirl
May 13, 2007

The 'blood babe with the silicone chest, 200-dollar haircut, and a closet full of the latest fashions.

BIG HEADLINE posted:

It's from Azzarello's N52 Wonder Woman #9. Hades, depicted as a no-one-understands-me-so-the-world-must-burn manchild, shoots Diana in the heart with Eros' twin Desert Eagles filled with love bullets (I poo poo you not), forcing Diana to marry him out of compulsion. While she's being prepared by demonic handmaidens, one of them implies he might gently caress the wound.

Ultimately, Diana head-fakes Hades by going along with it just long enough to let him know that the love bullets only work if the person firing them truly loves himself. So yeah, I'm kind of betting the first half everyone hates is more on Azzarello's shoulders.

I thought she got around the love bullet thing because they would kill someone who doesn't love who they're marrying and Wonder Woman loves everybody, including her enemies.

BIG HEADLINE
Jun 13, 2006

Make your move...'cause mine's gonna be ugly.

Skwirl posted:

I thought she got around the love bullet thing because they would kill someone who doesn't love who they're marrying and Wonder Woman loves everybody, including her enemies.

You're right. I forgot about that loophole, but I also distinctly remember something being said about the shooter needing to love himself, and Hades is a creature of self-loathing determined to inflict his pain on others.

Still, the overarching point remains - Azzarello is a lovely writer. I was actually genuinely intrigued about the possibilities in Barbara/Batgirl realizing (because she's one of the most intelligent people in the DC universe) that she was cultivating her own Joker, but it was just handled so horribly. The inner narrative of "in a week it wouldn't matter anyway" almost felt like a scriptwriter's crutch in a "if you could just forget the last thirty minutes that'd be ~fantastic~" way.

BIG HEADLINE fucked around with this message at 06:43 on Jul 27, 2016

Skwirl
May 13, 2007

The 'blood babe with the silicone chest, 200-dollar haircut, and a closet full of the latest fashions.

BIG HEADLINE posted:

You're right. I forgot about that loophole, but I also distinctly remember something being said about the shooter needing to love himself, and Hades is a creature of self-loathing determined to inflict his pain on others.

Still, the overarching point remains - Azzarello is a lovely writer.

I get it's popular to poo poo on Azzarello because of The Killing Joke (and based on everything I've heard, he deserves it), but I thought his Wonder Woman was pretty drat good, and I remember it being highly praised while it was coming out.

Alaois
Feb 7, 2012

D U S T M A N


Skwirl posted:

I get it's popular to poo poo on Azzarello because of The Killing Joke (and based on everything I've heard, he deserves it), but I thought his Wonder Woman was pretty drat good, and I remember it being highly praised while it was coming out.

and based on everything i've seen of him, not even just The Killing Joke, that baffles me

Inkspot
Dec 3, 2013

I believe I have
an appointment.
Mr. Goongala?


Skwirl posted:

I get it's popular to poo poo on Azzarello because of The Killing Joke (and based on everything I've heard, he deserves it), but I thought his Wonder Woman was pretty drat good, and I remember it being highly praised while it was coming out.

It had a lot of problems, but it was the most consistent Wonder Woman book in a long time. Kind of a bummer they went with vanilla LORD OF THE UNDEAD Hades and not a Hades who was more content to just kind of bum around the house and garden sometimes if not for the unhinged antics of his bloodthirsty wife, but what can you do.

ufarn
May 30, 2009


It was also the same series where some dude grabs Wonder Woman's rear end with no consequence, and the Amazons are found to regularly have orgies with sailors to secure the next generation or some poo poo.

The run was really well-drawn, but it just turned really dumb really fast for me to keep reading it.

Yvonmukluk
Oct 10, 2012

There were...
ABSOLUTELY NO CONSEQUENCES.



Speaking as someone who has never actually read the Killing Joke here's how I would have handled Babs:
Maybe have her already retired as Batgirl at the outset with a flashback to her Batgirl days to show how she quit (taking some cues from the Last Batgirl Story that was actually how she retired. That ended with her planning to take a more supporting role anyway, so maybe lay hints she's already been setting up servers and stuff - so the ground for her becoming Oracle was already there. Instead of her being passive after the shooting, she gets her hands on a laptop so she can remotely operate her Oracle setup, so she's the one who finds Joker's hideout ( or maybe found it beforehand and was planning to tell Batman before getting shot. So she's still clearly playing a role in the story.

Sure it's fanfic, but dammit so was Azzarello & Timm's version.

redbackground
Sep 24, 2007

BEHOLD!
OPTIC BLAST!


Grimey Drawer

It's from October, but John Ostrander had some wary opinions on the Killing Joke movie adaptation which are worth a quick read. Of course, he didn't know about the added narrative beats at this time.

If they were going to add a whole bunch of Pre-KJ Barbara stuff to the movie, they should have then included the Ostrander/Yale Barbara recovery story (Oracle: Year One, excerpts below) from Batman Chronicles 5 so theoretically, the movie becomes about the fall and rise of Barbara Gordon, not the fall and then further fall of Barbara Gordon. Is she just laid out in the hospital at the end the end of the movie or what? Do we even go back to her once Bats and Joker laugh together for a bit?



redbackground fucked around with this message at 14:09 on Jul 27, 2016

Lurdiak
Feb 25, 2006

I believe in a universe that doesn't care, and people that do.


Alaois posted:

and based on everything i've seen of him, not even just The Killing Joke, that baffles me

Azzarello definitely is one of those dudes that I absolutely do not get the love for.

Black Mage Knight
Jan 25, 2012

stop biting my cape

So does the movie even end with Batman strangling Joker? Because that was kinda part of the point of TKJ (alongside why it was meant to just be a what if story). That alongside exploring Jokers backstory it was showing what it would take for Joker to get Batman to finally kill.

Anyway, at the least it is good to know that DC continues to be poo poo and that the best animated Batman movie is still Return of The Joker.

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redbackground
Sep 24, 2007

BEHOLD!
OPTIC BLAST!


Grimey Drawer

Black Mage Knight posted:

So does the movie even end with Batman strangling Joker? Because that was kinda part of the point of TKJ (alongside why it was meant to just be a what if story). That alongside exploring Jokers backstory it was showing what it would take for Joker to get Batman to finally kill.
1) You don't need to hide plot points from a book that came out 30 years ago.
2) Those things didn't happen in the book anyway, good job on completely misreading it.

redbackground fucked around with this message at 14:13 on Jul 27, 2016

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