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SlothfulCobra
Mar 27, 2011

STOP BEING EVIL.


I do wish that the league had more screentime, maybe with more trade deals, trying to court the votes of individual ambassadors, or even a league member trying to become part of the station's security council, but I understand that would be pulling the show in a more episodic direction at a time when it was kind of blazing trails with its long-term plot.

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After The War
Apr 12, 2005

to all of my Architects
let me be traitor


Thanks to this thread, I subjected my Paranoia players to a "Grey 17"-inspired sewer cult in yesterday's game. So...thanks?

Midjack
Dec 24, 2007





Biscuit Hider

After The War posted:

Thanks to this thread, I subjected my Paranoia players to a "Grey 17"-inspired sewer cult in yesterday's game. So...thanks?

I felt like that was evocative of something but itís probably been a decade since I saw it so I totally missed it.

Hail BR15T3!

Payndz
Sep 22, 2006

They smelled of pubs, and Wormwood Scrubs, and too many right-wing meetings.

So I twatted them with a magic yo-yo. Because, hell, why not?


As a sidenote on the general (lack of) quality and care in TV-licensed fiction, there was a Charmed tie-in novel that got a main character's surname wrong. On the first page.

Absurd Alhazred
Mar 27, 2010


Watching S3E6 Dust to Dust and it starts with an Aryan-looking Night Watch-armbanded security guy harassing a Jewish shopowner, who calls him a "mamzer" and asks him whether he's late for a Bund meeting. In case you, the viewer, had any doubts as to what this is an allegory for.

Edit:

Now watching S3E9 Point of No Return and it has Londo telling an increasingly defensive Vir to rewrite his report on Minbar to be more negative, but this is exactly what he told him in Dust to Dust, some of the corrections being almost word-for-word.

Absurd Alhazred fucked around with this message at Mar 31, 2019 around 02:20

Baronjutter
Dec 31, 2007

"Tiny Trains"


Woah there's a B5 thread! And it's 85 pages!

Vavrek
Mar 2, 2013

I like your style hombre, but this is no laughing matter. Assault on a police officer. Theft of police property. Illegal possession of a firearm. FIVE counts of attempted murder. That comes to... 29 dollars and 40 cents. Cash, cheque, or credit card?

Baronjutter posted:

Woah there's a B5 thread! And it's 85 pages!

Welcome! Let's see if we can get more Stellaris players in here to talk War in Heaven strats.

nashona
May 8, 2014

Though she be but little, she is fierce


Vavrek posted:

Welcome! Let's see if we can get more Stellaris players in here to talk War in Heaven strats.

Well I understand one of the star trek threads has a guy reviewing b5 in it.

ConfusedUs
Feb 24, 2004

Bees?
You want fucking bees?
Here you go!
ROLL INITIATIVE!!


Vavrek posted:

Welcome! Let's see if we can get more Stellaris players in here to talk War in Heaven strats.

I have always been here.

Baronjutter
Dec 31, 2007

"Tiny Trains"


I'm really getting a Quark and Rom vibe from Londo and Vir.

Sure, Quark didn't go full evil war criminal but of the two of them Quark was the very traditional one obsessed with achieving "success" as defined by their culture, while Rom and Vir were misfits who were seen as failures and nontraditional by their own cultures, but as ethical and cool people by outsiders. Both are poo poo on by their high-status bosses who see them as naive idiots, but both are actually loved in their own way.

Both are low status "naive voice of reason" types acting counter to their high-status counterparts. Both end up becoming reformist leaders of their entire societies.

ConfusedUs
Feb 24, 2004

Bees?
You want fucking bees?
Here you go!
ROLL INITIATIVE!!


There's that story about how JMS shopped his B5 script around, including the studio that produced DS9, who rejected it. Then mysteriously produced a new Trek that was incredibly similar...

It's probably easier to list the things that are different about B5 and DS9 than those that are the same.

Antifa Turkeesian
Aug 20, 2006



Broken Cake

The weirdest thing about those overlaps are that each show has a character named Duk(h)at but with each having no similarity to the other. It's such a specific but pointless swipe (if it was not a weird coincidence).

sebmojo
Oct 23, 2010



Legit Cyberpunk

ConfusedUs posted:

There's that story about how JMS shopped his B5 script around, including the studio that produced DS9, who rejected it. Then mysteriously produced a new Trek that was incredibly similar...

It's probably easier to list the things that are different about B5 and DS9 than those that are the same.

I'm introducing a trekkie friend to b5 and she's genuinely mad about how much stuff they stole and how much better b5 is

Pick
Jul 19, 2009

I don't mind taking charity from those that I despise.

Baby I don't need your love.

Nap Ghost

Genuinely LAST CHANCE for the big b5 book unsigned for cheap. 50% off, then they're gone.

https://b5books.com/babylon-5-encyclopedia-unsigned/

Baronjutter
Dec 31, 2007

"Tiny Trains"


I'm watching B5 for the first time now, and yeah there's similarities, but I also love DS9 and think it's pretty unfair (and pointless) to fan war about who "ripped off" who. Both shows are good.

I ran a scifi rpg with some friends having never read or seen The Expanse, it turned out my worldbuilding and a ton of plot elements were ridiculously similar to the point that anyone could have said it was very obvious I had cribbed most everything from The Expanse. But there's just a ton of stuff that's going to end up seeming and playing out in similar ways when you've got similar starting points and general ideas.

Also even if DS9 was like "yeah paramount started us off with a bunch of notes and ideas we cribbed from B5" I wouldn't think anything less of the show. All IP should be stolen. It's lovely when money's involved, but both shows managed to get on TV. B5's absolutely the more cult underdog, but it had to be to do the type of storytelling TV just wasn't ready for in the 90's.

MrL_JaKiri
Sep 23, 2003

Ask me about my calm and reasonable opinions on cycling!

I am in no way a zealot about cycling!

Cycling helmets are ABSOLUTE HARAM!


ConfusedUs posted:

I have always been here.

You are not alone

gently caress that's doctor who

Agnosticnixie
Jan 6, 2015


I find the similarities enjoyable and in general from the little I've seen of Babylon 5 in reruns back when I had a tv, they're not quite that strong except in superficial ways; ripping off would have been resolving the Homefront arc with a season long civil war that tears the federation apart as half the Starfleet leadership decides that fascism is good actually. At most they tend to feel like nods.

Milkfred E. Moore
Aug 27, 2006

The truth is-


Something about the B5/DS9 ripoff conversation that I haven't seen brought up before, and only occurred to me a few weeks back, is that what JMS shopped around as Babylon 5 is not the B5 that was actually aired past-S1. As strong as some similarities are between the two shows, B5 got reworked pretty extensively when O'Hare left the show, and I doubt the people at Paramount were in on any of that (especially given that DS9 hit the airwaves first). Seems like it might've just been a bunch of weird coincidences, unless I've gotten something wrong.

Dirty
Apr 8, 2003

Let's get our doughnut on

Antifa Turkeesian posted:

The weirdest thing about those overlaps are that each show has a character named Duk(h)at but with each having no similarity to the other. It's such a specific but pointless swipe (if it was not a weird coincidence).

Also Lyta/Leeta.

But yeah, I do think it's coincidence. But I do think the germ of an idea for a station-based show is likely to have come from B5. I don't think there was any serious cribbing though.

Bell_
Sep 3, 2006

Tiny Baltimore



Pick posted:

Genuinely LAST CHANCE for the big b5 book unsigned for cheap. 50% off, then they're gone.

https://b5books.com/babylon-5-encyclopedia-unsigned/
Thanks for the tip!

That's an impulse buy I'll appreciate in the future.

Neddy Seagoon
Oct 12, 2012


We've got this thing licked!



Dirty posted:

Also Lyta/Leeta.

But yeah, I do think it's coincidence. But I do think the germ of an idea for a station-based show is likely to have come from B5. I don't think there was any serious cribbing though.

The other big coincidence is both of them getting a Cool Pew-Pew Combat Ship.

Both with dual cannons on each side.

Der Luftwaffle
Dec 29, 2008


Neddy Seagoon posted:

The other big coincidence is both of them getting a Cool Pew-Pew Combat Ship.

Both with dual cannons on each side.

Now I'm imagining the episode where Sisko announces the creation of a new Federation as dozens of Defiants fly overhead.

Milkfred E. Moore
Aug 27, 2006

The truth is-


Neddy Seagoon posted:

The other big coincidence is both of them getting a Cool Pew-Pew Combat Ship.

Both with dual cannons on each side.

Both in the first episode of the third season, no less.

Baronjutter
Dec 31, 2007

"Tiny Trains"



Ah Captain Sisko, I'm simply here to ask you a question: "What do you want?"

Bieeanshee
Aug 21, 2000

Not keen on keening.


Grimey Drawer

Neddy Seagoon posted:

The other big coincidence is both of them getting a Cool Pew-Pew Combat Ship.

Both with dual cannons on each side.

I thought the Wraiths were worth a Spock-brow.

Blindeye
Sep 22, 2006

I can't believe I kissed you!


Dirty posted:

Also Lyta/Leeta.

But yeah, I do think it's coincidence. But I do think the germ of an idea for a station-based show is likely to have come from B5. I don't think there was any serious cribbing though.

Didn't the thing he shopped around also have a shapeshifter security agent? I remember reading about it (not in the context of DS9, but in what changed between the pitch and the show) and was like

Bobulus
Jan 28, 2007



Hello, all. This is a random-rear end question, but I figured this thread would know more than most. I discovered this week that three of my season 4 dvds of Babylon 5 has disk-rot or something, and won't play. (No visible scratches or anything. The other seasons are fine. They were all stored together, so I'm not sure what's different).

Anyway, I was going to re-buy the season off Amazon, but I see they've got a 2004 edition (which is what I have) and a 2009 edition. Does anyone know what the difference, if any, is? Is it just a re-issue? Dare I hope that they fixed that terrible matte-related crop and zoom?

Delsaber
Oct 1, 2013

This may or may not be correct.


The 2004 edition is probably the one with the big book-like DVD cases, if so I'm betting the 2009 edition switched to the slimmer version. I doubt they made any changes to the transfer or even added new bonus features.

Bobulus
Jan 28, 2007



Yeah, all the ones I've got (2004 version) are the size of a thick paperback. Thanks!

Binary Badger
Oct 11, 2005

Trolling Link for a decade


A lot of DVDs from that time are going to be rotting because they started using aluminum instead of gold in the DVD layers; gold is much less susceptible to corrosion than aluminum. Also aluminum is cheaper.

Son of Sam-I-Am
Feb 12, 2002




I can definitively answer this as the same thing happened to my season 2 set and I had to pick up another copy. The rerelease is just that, it's the same discs, just in slimmer packaging.

Action Jacktion
Jun 3, 2003


Blindeye posted:

Didn't the thing he shopped around also have a shapeshifter security agent? I remember reading about it (not in the context of DS9, but in what changed between the pitch and the show) and was like

At one point the assassin in the pilot was a shapeshifter instead of someone using technology to take different appearances.

Something else from early documents that never made it into the show is Mr. Jones, who's officially an ordinary shopkeeper but who has a mysterious past and helps or hinders the other characters as it suits him. Sounds familiar....

Marmaduke!
May 19, 2009

Why would it do that!?

Even to this day they are stealing B5's ideas!

A Klingon monk had a very Minbari headdress in the latest Discovery episode

After The War
Apr 12, 2005

to all of my Architects
let me be traitor


Son of Sam-I-Am posted:

I can definitively answer this as the same thing happened to my season 2 set and I had to pick up another copy. The rerelease is just that, it's the same discs, just in slimmer packaging.

Much slimmer - it was cheaper to buy the complete set than just the seasons we were missing, and the whole thing (including movie collection) doesn't take up much more shelf space than the two 2004 season sets we replaced.

Bobulus
Jan 28, 2007



Yeah, looks like my season 5 set is hosed, too. Guess I'll be looking into the slim set.

sebmojo
Oct 23, 2010



Legit Cyberpunk

My friend bought the entire series on vhs just before dvds came in, I never asked him how it felt

McSpanky
Jan 16, 2005




ConfusedUs posted:

There's that story about how JMS shopped his B5 script around, including the studio that produced DS9, who rejected it. Then mysteriously produced a new Trek that was incredibly similar...

It's probably easier to list the things that are different about B5 and DS9 than those that are the same.

I looked into this and there was exactly one Paramount exec who pitched the idea of a third Trek series to Berman and Piller, and it was just that: the idea of "hey, let's keep milking this cow and make a third series". All the details came from them, elaborated from initial notes they developed with Roddenberry before he croaked. That exec wasn't even around when JMS made his pitch to Paramount in the late 80s, he was president of NBC's Entertainment Division and was busy making them king of the networks.

MrL_JaKiri
Sep 23, 2003

Ask me about my calm and reasonable opinions on cycling!

I am in no way a zealot about cycling!

Cycling helmets are ABSOLUTE HARAM!


sebmojo posted:

My friend bought the entire series on vhs just before dvds came in, I never asked him how it felt

At 2 episodes per tape, "heavy"

lol but seriously
Feb 24, 2007

somehow managed to fuck up a namechange for the like 3rd time now goddam it


Slippery Tilde

sebmojo posted:

My friend bought the entire series on vhs just before dvds came in, I never asked him how it felt

I mean, high res is really not B5's friend so...

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Narsham
Jun 5, 2008


McSpanky posted:

I looked into this and there was exactly one Paramount exec who pitched the idea of a third Trek series to Berman and Piller, and it was just that: the idea of "hey, let's keep milking this cow and make a third series". All the details came from them, elaborated from initial notes they developed with Roddenberry before he croaked. That exec wasn't even around when JMS made his pitch to Paramount in the late 80s, he was president of NBC's Entertainment Division and was busy making them king of the networks.

I'm not saying it was anything more than a coincidence, but I'm also not saying that it is inconceivable that one or more of the people pitched B5 might have had conversations with other people besides the DS9 creators, who in turn had conversations with them about B5.

Remember that B5 was getting pitched at a time where the commonplace wisdom was that a non-Trek sci-fi show was no longer viable. Does anyone really think that nobody who had heard about the pitch would mention it to any of the people working on Trek?

That said, it's ludicrous to think that Berman and Piller sat down and said "let's reconstruct every single detail we heard about B5 in our own show." What is not so ludicrous is the possibility that they received suggestions from the network about tweaks or changes to make in the show that were in part motivated by a desire to make B5 look like a cheap knockoff. Barring a TNT/Crusade-style meltdown, no creative team is going to itemize the list of minor changes they may have made during the process because it was easier giving in to some ill-informed executive on a minor point than to fight. In this case, it's possible that one or more of those ill-informed executives might have known something Berman and Piller didn't.

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