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TraderStav
May 19, 2006

It feels like I was standing my entire life and I just sat down


AntherUslessPoster posted:

Its a guillotine not a healing device in the first place. The purpose is to restore the damage done by the criminal to the victim.

I never caught on to that but drat is that an awesome concept now that you call it out.

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McCloud
Oct 27, 2005



Why didn't Marcus just get 4-5 other people and then have everyone donate a little bit of life to Susan instead of cranking it up to MAXIMUM OVERDRIVE

jng2058
Jul 17, 2010

We have the tools, we have the talent!


McCloud posted:

Why didn't Marcus just get 4-5 other people and then have everyone donate a little bit of life to Susan instead of cranking it up to MAXIMUM OVERDRIVE

Because he was a lovesick idiot too busy panicking to think clearly. And possibly, considering that she wasn't attracted to him and wasn't ever going to be with him (creepy as hell short story aside), possibly he decided that he'd rather die for her than live without her.

Between Marcus and Lennier, JMS had some things to say about the line between love and obsession, and what happens to people who cross from one to the other.

Slamhound
Mar 27, 2010


McCloud posted:

Why didn't Marcus just get 4-5 other people and then have everyone donate a little bit of life to Susan instead of cranking it up to MAXIMUM OVERDRIVE

Because then it wouldnít have been him saving her, it would have been the others. This way, when he drains his entire life force and dies, Ivonova will realize how much heís sacrificed and theyíll live happily ever after he wakes up from draining his entire life force and...wait...what...wait, oh poo poo wait, is the machine on? somebody turn off the machine I need to rethink///***

Tsaedje
May 11, 2007

*AUTISM INSTENSIFIES*



There was a time and permission factor involved too. Everyone else was too busy to have time for the ethics debate they would have demanded to have if he'd let anyone else in on the plan.

I choose to believe Marcus is the genuine nice guy that nice guy creeps think they are. Susan even says he never asked anything in return and he never mopes or complains that he deserves her, Lennier style. The short story never happened.

Seemlar
Jun 17, 2002


From how I remember it Medbay was busted up and there were a bunch of unconscious bodies left in his wake, Marcus was pretty laser focused on there being one possible way to save her

McSpanky
Jan 16, 2005






Tsaedje posted:

The short story never happened.

auuuuggghghghghhf

What a completely spectacular exercise in missing the point.

Jedit
Dec 10, 2011

Proudly supporting vanilla legends 1994-2014

Proudly supporting the Lowtax Spine Fund 2018-19


AntherUslessPoster posted:

Its a guillotine not a healing device in the first place.

You are literally ignoring the spoken text of the episode to make a point that doesn't exist.

TheDiceMustRoll
Jul 23, 2018


Tsaedje posted:

There was a time and permission factor involved too. Everyone else was too busy to have time for the ethics debate they would have demanded to have if he'd let anyone else in on the plan.

I choose to believe Marcus is the genuine nice guy that nice guy creeps think they are. Susan even says he never asked anything in return and he never mopes or complains that he deserves her, Lennier style. The short story never happened.

Babylon 5 in general has a strong theme of aggressive self-sacrifice in it, too.

G'Kar, Londo, Marcus, Sheridan, Those Drazi idiots from 4x06, probably others.

AntherUslessPoster
Feb 12, 2019

Universe existed for 13.8 billion years before humans and will exist for trillions years more after the last human is forgotten.
So what was your problem again?


Jedit posted:

You are literally ignoring the spoken text of the episode to make a point that doesn't exist.

I'm notorious for and being wrong so totally can be. Could you be more specific about the spoken text? All I had available (legally) to watch was locally translated version so I might have misunderstood the details

AntherUslessPoster fucked around with this message at 22:12 on Jun 20, 2020

Doctor Zero
Sep 21, 2002

Would you like a jelly baby?
It's been in my pocket through 4 regenerations,
but it's still good.

younger races thread posted:

I guess the shadows have other allies? Might there be an entire axis of space evil out at the rim?

Narsham
Jun 5, 2008


McSpanky posted:

auuuuggghghghghhf

What a completely spectacular exercise in missing the point.

It was deliberately written to be controversial. I just donít think JMS realized that the controversy would end up being whether the story should be treated as noncanonical or whether all copies of it should be destroyed and the thing entirely erased from our minds.

Doctor Zero
Sep 21, 2002

Would you like a jelly baby?
It's been in my pocket through 4 regenerations,
but it's still good.

I'm pretty sure it was another episode designed to set up a Star Trek situation, and solve it Babylon 5 style.

ultrafilter
Aug 23, 2007

It is time for your viscera to see the light of day!

I'm not familiar with the short story in question. Is there any value in reading it or should I just go on being unaware?

jng2058
Jul 17, 2010

We have the tools, we have the talent!


ultrafilter posted:

I'm not familiar with the short story in question. Is there any value in reading it or should I just go on being unaware?

Factoring in the usual disclaimers about each of us having different tastes and what offends me may not you and so on and so forth, I personally am not a happier person as a Babylon 5 fan for having read it.

Torrannor
Apr 27, 2013

---FAGNER---
TEAM-MATE


ultrafilter posted:

I'm not familiar with the short story in question. Is there any value in reading it or should I just go on being unaware?

The last time that story came up, there were calls for brain bleach, and we congratulated the one goon who didn't look it up for being the Vir to our Londo. So...

Lemniscate Blue
Apr 21, 2006

Here we go again.

Fun Shoe

jng2058 posted:

Factoring in the usual disclaimers about each of us having different tastes and what offends me may not you and so on and so forth, I personally am not a happier person as a Babylon 5 fan for having read it.

Concur.

ultrafilter
Aug 23, 2007

It is time for your viscera to see the light of day!

Ignorance truly is bliss.

Angry Salami
Jul 27, 2013

Don't trust the skull.


Donít try and track it down, donít even look for a plot summary. Itís that bad.

Doctor Zero
Sep 21, 2002

Would you like a jelly baby?
It's been in my pocket through 4 regenerations,
but it's still good.

If you are really curious, just know that itís a story thatís intended to be romantic but instead is cringey and sort of pathetic. Thatís really all you need to know. If someone had told me it was some sad shut-inís fan wank I would have believed them.

I guess I wasnít as mentally damaged as most, but itís honestly not worth digging up.

Narsham
Jun 5, 2008


Let's put it this way: it purports to offer a happy ending for Marcus. If it had instead told the story of Marcus being revived and going off alone to live on an asteroid, where he spent the rest of his life hallucinating that Ivanova was alive and they were living there together, that would have been considerably less horrifying and would have presented a far more healthy situation than what the story provides.

Hell, replace the hallucination with a life-sized Ivanova pillow and it's still a healthier situation.

Jedit
Dec 10, 2011

Proudly supporting vanilla legends 1994-2014

Proudly supporting the Lowtax Spine Fund 2018-19


ultrafilter posted:

I'm not familiar with the short story in question. Is there any value in reading it or should I just go on being unaware?

If you've watched AI, you've already read it.

Midjack
Dec 24, 2007






Biscuit Hider

You know what, I believe in giving people a choice instead of acting like seventh graders with a Playboy.

https://www.scribd.com/document/790...urable-Romantic
https://dokumen.tips/documents/baby...e-romantic.html

Midjack fucked around with this message at 18:09 on Jun 21, 2020

CainFortea
Oct 15, 2004



You want to just share the pain. don't fib.

Midjack
Dec 24, 2007






Biscuit Hider

CainFortea posted:

You want to just share the pain. don't fib.

No, it's more combat against the I KNOW MORE THAN YOU AND WON'T SHARE IT attitude that unpleasant nerds display and is one of the things I most despise about fandoms. I think the story loving sucked but when you get a dozen people in here one-upping each other's level of detail to demonstrate how much more about it they know in what I guess you'd call "performative shepherding," it's kind of a lovely way to proceed. Similar to how the blindwatch spoilers have gone, really.

Midjack fucked around with this message at 18:29 on Jun 21, 2020

McCloud
Oct 27, 2005



I kinda thought of Marcus and Lennier as the goofus and gallant of nice guys, kinda like the polar opposite of the nice guy spectrum. That short story erases that distinction and just draws a big fat equation sign between them.

Also man did JMS have a hateboner for Ivanova for some reason? Her mom killed herself, her dad died estranged and bitter from her, her brother died young, her girlfriend was murdered and then dissected, Marcus died to save her life, and if the actress hadn't left she would have been the one dating psycho cult leader Byron. Like drat, give a girl a break, eh?

Midjack
Dec 24, 2007






Biscuit Hider

McCloud posted:

I kinda thought of Marcus and Lennier as the goofus and gallant of nice guys, kinda like the polar opposite of the nice guy spectrum. That short story erases that distinction and just draws a big fat equation sign between them.

Also man did JMS have a hateboner for Ivanova for some reason? Her mom killed herself, her dad died estranged and bitter from her, her brother died young, her girlfriend was murdered and then dissected, Marcus died to save her life, and if the actress hadn't left she would have been the one dating psycho cult leader Byron. Like drat, give a girl a break, eh?

JMS wanted to bone Claudia Christian right after sheís ended a relationship but the date went badly and things were weird between them after that.

TK-42-1
Oct 30, 2013

looks like we have a bad transmitter



Pillbug

The Marcus story is basically the goon printer story on roids and it sucks.

CainFortea
Oct 15, 2004



Midjack posted:

No, it's more combat against the I KNOW MORE THAN YOU AND WON'T SHARE IT attitude that unpleasant nerds display and is one of the things I most despise about fandoms. I think the story loving sucked but when you get a dozen people in here one-upping each other's level of detail to demonstrate how much more about it they know in what I guess you'd call "performative shepherding," it's kind of a lovely way to proceed. Similar to how the blindwatch spoilers have gone, really.

I wasn't serious.

Farmer Crack-Ass
Jan 2, 2001

~this is me posting irl~


TK-42-1 posted:

The Marcus story is basically the goon printer story on roids and it sucks.

Honestly I feel like that comparison is a bit unfair to the printer-carrying goon.

Gnome de plume
Sep 5, 2006

Hell.
Fucking.
Yes.


I don't the phrase incurable romantic is as romantic as people think it is tbh

McCloud
Oct 27, 2005



Midjack posted:

JMS wanted to bone Claudia Christian right after sheís ended a relationship but the date went badly and things were weird between them after that.

...well, I think that explains a lot

head58
Apr 1, 2013



Didnít he send her a limo full of flowers or something, just like he has Corwin do in that super awful episode?

Doctor Zero
Sep 21, 2002

Would you like a jelly baby?
It's been in my pocket through 4 regenerations,
but it's still good.

Midjack posted:

No, it's more combat against the I KNOW MORE THAN YOU AND WON'T SHARE IT attitude that unpleasant nerds display and is one of the things I most despise about fandoms. I think the story loving sucked but when you get a dozen people in here one-upping each other's level of detail to demonstrate how much more about it they know in what I guess you'd call "performative shepherding," it's kind of a lovely way to proceed. Similar to how the blindwatch spoilers have gone, really.

Thatís not whatís happening. Anyone can google it, itís not like the B5 masters that one one guy has.

CainFortea
Oct 15, 2004



VideoGames posted:

I actually wanted Londo to get a taste of revenge for it.


Oh man, poor VG is gonna feel bad about this later.

Doctor Zero
Sep 21, 2002

Would you like a jelly baby?
It's been in my pocket through 4 regenerations,
but it's still good.

Yeah all of VGís latest posts are kind of a cross between and

Midjack
Dec 24, 2007






Biscuit Hider

Doctor Zero posted:

Thatís not whatís happening. Anyone can google it, itís not like the B5 masters that one one guy has.

So then say nothing or say why it's bad instead of just going "omigod it's soooo bad you wouldn't believe, OH NO DON'T LOOK FOR IT" like most of the replies did. Don't treat newcomers like dumbshits, treat them like equals.

ultrafilter
Aug 23, 2007

It is time for your viscera to see the light of day!

Were the season titles ever displayed anywhere outside the internet and the box sets? I think it might be a point of interest for the blind thread, but I don't want to even mention them if a regular viewer back then wouldn't have known about them. Amazon doesn't display them.

Jedit
Dec 10, 2011

Proudly supporting vanilla legends 1994-2014

Proudly supporting the Lowtax Spine Fund 2018-19


Doctor Zero posted:

Yeah all of VG’s latest posts are kind of a cross between and

He's going to be annoyed when he finds out why 3rd August 2258 was given as a Wednesday when it's actually going to be a Tuesday.

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Narsham
Jun 5, 2008


Midjack posted:

JMS wanted to bone Claudia Christian right after sheís ended a relationship but the date went badly and things were weird between them after that.

I havenít read her autobiography and only know part of this story. Perhaps you could elaborate at least enough to explain why you think this made a difference in the writing? When did their ďdateĒ happen in the course of production?

My favorite is Bill Mumy telling JMS he thought Lennier was in love with Delenn and JMS responding with a version of ďare you sure you want that?Ē No failed attempt to date required.

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