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Polaron
Oct 13, 2010

The Oncoming Storm


One of the only times I can thin of that the show doesn't stick to that is the scene where the Thunderbolt blows away the dome on Mars. IIRC, none of the main characters are even in the Sol system at the time.

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SlothfulCobra
Mar 27, 2011

STOP BEING EVIL.


I still don't really get what the whole deal with the Inquisitor was. Make sure Delenn is willing to suffer just because the Vorlons say she needs to, but also make sure that she isn't gonna go all martyr on them?

I'm not even clear on what exactly they trusted her with after the whole chosen one business. Was Kosh secretly advising her on running the rangers? The Vorlons never really stuck their necks out aside from that one time that Sheridan shamed Kosh.

The only real payoff to that episode that I know of is that the Vorlons keeping Earth's most famous lady murderer in their pocket is a sign that maybe the Vorlons aren't very good.

Jedit
Dec 10, 2011

Proudly supporting vanilla legends 1994-2014

Proudly supporting the Lowtax Spine Fund 2018-19


SlothfulCobra posted:

I still don't really get what the whole deal with the Inquisitor was. Make sure Delenn is willing to suffer just because the Vorlons say she needs to, but also make sure that she isn't gonna go all martyr on them?

Remember that the Vorlon/Shadow Wars are extensions by proxy of an ideological argument. It boots the Vorlons nothing to put their faith in glory hounds; if the people fighting for them don't believe in the cause, then they don't accept order and the Shadows are proven right.

Neddy Seagoon
Oct 12, 2012

Hi, Everybody!


Jedit posted:

No. The fall of Narn is not the important part of the fall of Narn. The important part is putting us in Londo's position as he watches, insulated by distance but knowing that he's crossed a line that he can never return from. Seeing the destruction from the ground would just be splashy effects for the sake of it, as well as lending us the perspective of the victims - which is G'Kar's job.

Showing specific locations getting destroyed would also detract from the scene as a whole; Seeing big flashing booms from orbit is incalculable and you stand there with Londo wondering just how many lives were lost. How much history and civilization is being vaporized. Seeing it up close is mentally quantifiable as "well that building was destroyed, those over there were damaged a bit" and loses its overall impact.

Eighties ZomCom
Sep 10, 2008






Plus if it were made today they'd just end up showing a bunch of Narns getting killed in various gruesome ways because prestige tv.

Narsham
Jun 5, 2008


CainFortea posted:

B5 is about the characters more than anything. Which is why we always get shots of the characters watching even the space battles and reacting to it.

And why that one time we see a ground action go poorly and everyone dies felt so weird and a lot of folks didn't like it. We're watching this show to see the reaction of the main cast really.

This is also a driving force behind the weapons pod in Legend of the Rangers. Though that obviously wasn't liked, either.

SlothfulCobra posted:

I still don't really get what the whole deal with the Inquisitor was. Make sure Delenn is willing to suffer just because the Vorlons say she needs to, but also make sure that she isn't gonna go all martyr on them?

I'm not even clear on what exactly they trusted her with after the whole chosen one business. Was Kosh secretly advising her on running the rangers? The Vorlons never really stuck their necks out aside from that one time that Sheridan shamed Kosh.

The only real payoff to that episode that I know of is that the Vorlons keeping Earth's most famous lady murderer in their pocket is a sign that maybe the Vorlons aren't very good.

Remember the Vorlons care about identity, not action. "Who are you?" If she is not the right person, if she is not pure in an ideological sort of way, then her participation in the war is a loss for the Vorlons. Same with Sheridan. Acting from the wrong motivations or with the wrong intent spoils everything from a Vorlon perspective.

This also reveals both that the Vorlons generally are a lot less nice than Kosh is, and that they don't actually respect virtuous behavior or values (from our perspective, but probably also from theirs). In other words, the Vorlons are demanding that the "lesser race" servants doing their work live up to the highest of standards, but even the methods they choose to determine that to be the case demonstrate that the Vorlons themselves have lost sight of who they are and what they stand for. It's debatable that this particular test is consistent with Vorlon values, but it shouldn't be debatable if the Vorlons were actually practicing what they preach.

ultrafilter
Aug 23, 2007

It is time for your viscera to see the light of day!

Honestly there are some things, the inquisitor included, that would work a little better if the Vorlons were slightly less mysterious. I get what they were going for, but I think JMS actually overdid it a little bit.

DogsInSpace!
Sep 11, 2001

Mind Explode!
Out Come Dogs!




Fun Shoe

Jedit posted:

No. The fall of Narn is not the important part of the fall of Narn. The important part is putting us in Londo's position as he watches, insulated by distance but knowing that he's crossed a line that he can never return from. Seeing the destruction from the ground would just be splashy effects for the sake of it, as well as lending us the perspective of the victims - which is G'Kar's job.

Perfectly summed up my thinking. That and a big part of the B5 charm is that old stage feel of it. A bigger splashier scene where they cut to cute kids playing in a farm as the first bombs falls and everything turns to white could be compelling and good... just not this show. Seen a few shows where they do this and somehow the restraint of b5 feels more chilling to me. But when the Doctor brought it up I had to ask myself that question.

Also loved Londo staring at the horror he inadvertently caused as he's swallowed by the shadows. Londo and Vir were my POV characters. Probably because they reminded me so much of my family. Londo especially, flaws and all. Some of my family can be so bloody charming in this old world rogueish way and sometimes that can be part of the danger. Seeing the rise and fall of Londo was extra heartbreaking as I just wanted him to listen to the better angels of his nature, which Londo really does have good parts to him. They just get swallowed up by all the darkness.

Still have some family bitch about the good old days of the Soviet Union and I'm always like "um... let's talk about this a sec Grandma". Very little is as cut and dry or as picture perfect as we want to remember but that desire to long for those rosey lost days of yore is so strong. Spoiler: Stalin was terrible and nobody should think he was cool.

As far as the Inquisitor: I always thought it was less a test for Delenn and more of a test for both Sheridan and Delenn. On their character. The Zorlons always ask "Who are you?" There is a thought that who you truly are only comes out in times of great pain and stress. Maybe Kosh just wanted to not only find out who they were but to show both Delenn and Sheridan who they were truly were inside. Force them to rely on their own strength and say no to going along with what they were told was the right thing to do. Wasn't it the first time Sheridan really stood up to the Vorlons? I can't remember.

edit: Just realized I said Zorlons and I'm leaving it. Josh the Zorlon is one of my favverite things from the blind watch thread.

DogsInSpace! fucked around with this message at 21:06 on Aug 13, 2020

Tsaedje
May 11, 2007

*AUTISM INSTENSIFIES*



I feel very dumb for only just realising that Delenn paraphrasing Sagan could easily be reconciled as Sinclair/Valen's doing

Jedit
Dec 10, 2011

Proudly supporting vanilla legends 1994-2014

Proudly supporting the Lowtax Spine Fund 2018-19


DogsInSpace! posted:

Perfectly summed up my thinking. That and a big part of the B5 charm is that old stage feel of it. A bigger splashier scene where they cut to cute kids playing in a farm as the first bombs falls and everything turns to white could be compelling and good... just not this show. Seen a few shows where they do this and somehow the restraint of b5 feels more chilling to me. But when the Doctor brought it up I had to ask myself that question.

Also loved Londo staring at the horror he inadvertently caused as he's swallowed by the shadows. Londo and Vir were my POV characters. Probably because they reminded me so much of my family. Londo especially, flaws and all. Some of my family can be so bloody charming in this old world rogueish way and sometimes that can be part of the danger. Seeing the rise and fall of Londo was extra heartbreaking as I just wanted him to listen to the better angels of his nature, which Londo really does have good parts to him. They just get swallowed up by all the darkness.

I still remember watching 220 on first airing and thinking "OK, this is where Londo is going to stop". Then he didn't, and I realised that anything could and would happen. Every event after that episode had more weight because you knew that none of it would be rolled back (except Zack's Nightwatch membership, but that was telegraphed).

MikusR
Jan 5, 2008


Does anybody know how many humans died in Earth-Minbari war?
The numbers I found are: 50-60 000 before the meeting described in "The Begining" then about 200 000 after. And the was Battle of The line with ~19 800 ships lost (so about 10 people per ship (less for fighters more for capitals) ~150 000). That makes about 400 000.
Are there any better numbers?

TraderStav
May 19, 2006

It feels like I was standing my entire life and I just sat down


MikusR posted:

Does anybody know how many humans died in Earth-Minbari war?
The numbers I found are: 50-60 000 before the meeting described in "The Begining" then about 200 000 after. And the was Battle of The line with ~19 800 ships lost (so about 10 people per ship (less for fighters more for capitals) ~150 000). That makes about 400 000.
Are there any better numbers?

Iím not sure why everyone is freaking out about COVID-46, youíre just as likely to die meeting a Minbari warship with its gun ports open than from the virus. Anyone still interacting with Minbari and keeping their kids out of the Zocalo are hypocrites.

mllaneza
Apr 28, 2007


Veteran, Bermuda Triangle Expeditionary Force, 1993-1952





Narsham posted:

This is also a driving force behind the weapons pod in Legend of the Rangers. Though that obviously wasn't liked, either.

Very much the wrong answer to a very real question. They actually had a better command system for Sheridan and Delenn on the Minbari capital ships; they stand in a hologram of the battle and point at a ship to talk to it.

Son of Sam-I-Am
Feb 12, 2002





Just got to season 2 tonight in my rewatch on Vudu. The opening credits for the first 2 episodes do not spoil Delenn's new appearance, as happens on the DVDs. This is the only way to watch going forward.

ConfusedUs
Feb 24, 2004

Bees?
You want fucking bees?
Here you go!
ROLL INITIATIVE!!


From the blind watch thread

hope and vaseline posted:

I just started watching What We Do in the Shadows and someone here mentioned the similarities between Vir and Guillermo and they are dead on, it's so good

I don't know how far you are into WWDitS, but I really don't think this holds up beyond the superficial "long-suffering, nervous assistant who finds a backbone" angle.

Spoilers in case you haven't seen WWDitS through the end of season 2.

Gizmo is far, far less moral than Vir. One of his core duties is finding local virgins for the vamps to eat! He's also a familiar for selfish reasons: he wants to be a vampire.

Vir, on the other hand, is in it for selfless reasons. He's a true public servant, and while Vir is certainly capable of violence, he doesn't revel in it the way Giz does. For Vir, violence is a sad necessity. For Guillermo, violence is something to prepare for and, potentially, use out of spite.

Frankly, I see Gizmo as much closer to Londo than Vir in terms of motivation and story arc. Like Londo, he begins in a position of weakness and resents it. Like Londo, he finds power and starts leveraging it. Like Londo, he hits a point of no return, seems ashamed of it, but continues down that path.

Jedit
Dec 10, 2011

Proudly supporting vanilla legends 1994-2014

Proudly supporting the Lowtax Spine Fund 2018-19


What We Do For The Shadows.

Blindeye
Sep 22, 2006

I can't believe I kissed you!


Tsaedje posted:

I feel very dumb for only just realising that Delenn paraphrasing Sagan could easily be reconciled as Sinclair/Valen's doing

I feel dumber for having not realized this, either.

Zaroff
Nov 10, 2009

Nothing in the world can stop me now!

Son of Sam-I-Am posted:

Just got to season 2 tonight in my rewatch on Vudu. The opening credits for the first 2 episodes do not spoil Delenn's new appearance, as happens on the DVDs. This is the only way to watch going forward.

Did they also fix the Season 4 finale? They had to re-edit the credits to remove Ivanova, but the DVDs all had the standard credits (including the R2 ones which corrected the S2 error with Delenn).

Thereís also the Psi-Corps credit, but I think that was fixed in R1, but not R2 (which also had an even bigger error in The Fall of Centauri Prime, which removed the entire teaser).

Makes me miss the VHS releases, where they didnít screw up things like this!

Zat
Jan 15, 2008

I SUPPORT ALL THE PREDATORS


Zaroff posted:

Did they also fix the Season 4 finale? They had to re-edit the credits to remove Ivanova, but the DVDs all had the standard credits (including the R2 ones which corrected the S2 error with Delenn).

Just checked, and yes they did. Claudia Christian isn't there.

Doctor Zero
Sep 21, 2002

Would you like a jelly baby?
It's been in my pocket through 4 regenerations,
but it's still good.

Why would they remove her from the S4 finale? She was still part of the cast in S4.

ultrafilter
Aug 23, 2007

It is time for your viscera to see the light of day!

The season 4 finale wasn't shot until after TNT picked up season 5 and she left.

hope and vaseline
Feb 13, 2001



ConfusedUs posted:

From the blind watch thread


I don't know how far you are into WWDitS, but I really don't think this holds up beyond the superficial "long-suffering, nervous assistant who finds a backbone" angle.

Yea not far, just finished season 1 which brought an interesting twist to guillermo's character. Ill read your spoilers once i get through up to there!

Doctor Zero
Sep 21, 2002

Would you like a jelly baby?
It's been in my pocket through 4 regenerations,
but it's still good.

ultrafilter posted:

The season 4 finale wasn't shot until after TNT picked up season 5 and she left.

Yeah I know, but she was still employed in S4 when the episode aired. But then I don't know the rules about who you put in the credits under what conditions, so

At the expense of citing Wikipedia, this was my impression:

Wikipedia posted:

With regard to television series, it is now an accepted practice to credit regular cast members for every episode of a season, even if they did not appear in each episode.

Can't remember exactly with B5 but I thought they followed that?

Doctor Zero fucked around with this message at 18:24 on Aug 14, 2020

ultrafilter
Aug 23, 2007

It is time for your viscera to see the light of day!

From the guide page for The Deconstruction of Falling Stars:

JMS posted:

Why was Claudia Christian's name taken out of the credits but Jason Carter's left in?
We had no choice. Contractually, when we moved "Sleeping in Light" into the fifth season, we had to move her credit from "Deconstruction" or incur an additional episode's payment. We didn't even realize this until WB called and put us on notice about this literally 3 days before the episode was uplinked. It wasn't a choice we had; they said that it had to be moved. We could leave Jason in the credits because he didn't appear in SiL.

Doctor Zero
Sep 21, 2002

Would you like a jelly baby?
It's been in my pocket through 4 regenerations,
but it's still good.


Aha!

Thanks.

Torrannor
Apr 27, 2013

---FAGNER---
TEAM-MATE


I'm very sad that VideoGames hasn't posted in a while in the new watchers thread

Ayin
Jan 6, 2010

Have a great day.


hope and vaseline posted:

I just started watching What We Do in the Shadows and someone here mentioned the similarities between Vir and Guillermo and they are dead on, it's so good
Also, am I crazy or does like half of Laszo's lines sound like they're coming out of Jason Carter's mouth? I was so sure it was him but then I looked at wikipedia

MrL_JaKiri
Sep 23, 2003

Ask me about my calm and reasonable opinions on cycling!

I am in no way a zealot about cycling!

Cycling helmets are ABSOLUTE HARAM!


Ayin posted:

Also, am I crazy or does like half of Laszo's lines sound like they're coming out of Jason Carter's mouth? I was so sure it was him but then I looked at wikipedia

You're crazy, Matt Berry sounds very different!

Ayin
Jan 6, 2010

Have a great day.


MrL_JaKiri posted:

You're crazy, Matt Berry sounds very different!
Half the time, yeah

the other half though...

(also I've only seen the first five or so episodes so far, maybe he stabilized his voice since then?)

TK-42-1
Oct 30, 2013

looks like we have a bad transmitter



Pillbug

Blind watch thread

ultrafilter
Aug 23, 2007

It is time for your viscera to see the light of day!

I have some issues with JMS's writing, but the man is a master of pacing. There's a lot that happens in The Fall of Night and none of it feels rushed. I think a lot of television writers would have trouble pulling that off half as well.

Polaron
Oct 13, 2010

The Oncoming Storm


Fall of Night is a crazy packed episode. I always sort of forget that the fight with the battlecruiser's not the very end of the episode and there's still the whole Kosh reveal to go.

mllaneza
Apr 28, 2007


Veteran, Bermuda Triangle Expeditionary Force, 1993-1952





I'll chime in over here about the historical reference. England and France sold out the Czechs in 1938 because they weren't ready, specifically in the air. England refused to act before their air defenses were in place, and neither had an air force that could stand up to the Luftwaffe. If the French had kicked off in 1938 They'd have been attacking someone who would have had air superiority and a world-class tactical bomber. They'd have gotten badly hosed up. It turned out that everyone's fears about how badly a strategic bombing force would devastate your cities were overblown; it turned out the bomber wouldn't always get through - not until you start throwing hundreds of much better bombers at cities anyways. All in all, nobody who knew what both sides really had, and what was building in the next year, can make a good case for intervention in 1938.

But while all this is going on at B5, a secret Earthforce shipyard is building the Shadow Omegas. They aren't going to worry about the Centauri now, Earth is too big a bite now, and they have a whole new navy building. That gets the League worlds sold out. There would absolutely have been an Earth-Centauri War if Babylon 5 and the Army of Light not kicked the Shadows and Vorlons out of the galaxy. And there's a good chance it doesn't the Centauri's way.

MrL_JaKiri
Sep 23, 2003

Ask me about my calm and reasonable opinions on cycling!

I am in no way a zealot about cycling!

Cycling helmets are ABSOLUTE HARAM!


Clarke also believes he has the Shadows on side.

DrBouvenstein
Feb 28, 2007
Probation
Can't post for 6 hours!


Man, say what you will about The Shadows, but they are GREAT at subtle manipulation.

At some point in recent Earth history, Vorlons muck around with human DNA to create telepaths*, knowing that by the time the next Shadow War happens, humans will be space-faring and thus cold use a little help.

The Shadows notice this, and they/their servants either convince EarthGov to make the Psi Corp, or just manage to get control of it, and also manage to get the EarthGov president aligned with them through their control of the Psi Corp, effectively taking Earth out of the conflict directly, and perhaps even intentionally sparking the civil war, "Strength Through Conflict" and all that crap.

I also wonder if they had a hand in the Minbari Civil War...I know it technically happens after The Shadows left, but it was building up right before and during The Shadow War, with the Warrior's getting all pissy that the Religious Caste was more or less in charge of it and not them...and we know of at least one person in the Religious Caste had contact with The Drakh and wanted to enlist their help, and The Drakh are basically just Shadow-Lite.

*Do we know what races had telepaths naturally? I think I read that JMS said the Minbari did, and I assume The Narns were natural? They didn't have any Vorlon manipulation since they were basically off everyone's radar that long ago...I mean, The Shadows put ships there but didn't seem to actively get involved with the Narn, since they weren't space-faring, at least until the Narn telepaths figured out they could drive off the ships...maybe that caused the Shadows to hold a grudge, hence why they were so eager to help the Centauri start a war with them?

Lemniscate Blue
Apr 21, 2006

Here we go again.

Fun Shoe

Did the Shadows or their agents have a hand in creating the Psi Corps, or did they just seize a golden opportunity when they saw it? It's been too long since I read Dark Genesis.

As to the natural telepaths question, I always assumed that those species that saw Kosh as an angel or equivalent had been manipulated in the Standard Vorlon Package - encourage development of telepathy and plant the seed of "Vorlons are good guys". Which, unless Londo was the only Centauri not to see Kosh as an angel, would indicate that Centauri telepaths evolved without Vorlon tinkering.

Lemniscate Blue fucked around with this message at 17:37 on Aug 18, 2020

TraderStav
May 19, 2006

It feels like I was standing my entire life and I just sat down


I always understood the reason that Londo didn't see anything is because he was corrupted by the shadows and Vorlons had some ability to conceal their true form from those that were, or something.

ultrafilter
Aug 23, 2007

It is time for your viscera to see the light of day!

I don't remember any Shadow stuff in Dark Genesis but that doesn't mean it's not there. The comics show the Shadows or their agents working with Psi-Corps on Mars around 2250, so they've been involved at least that long.

Doctor Zero
Sep 21, 2002

Would you like a jelly baby?
It's been in my pocket through 4 regenerations,
but it's still good.

TraderStav posted:

I always understood the reason that Londo didn't see anything is because he was corrupted by the shadows and Vorlons had some ability to conceal their true form from those that were, or something.

I took it as Kosh having to consciously project his vision into the minds of those who saw him, not just some kind of broadcast, which is why it took so much effort to do. If that were true, then he'd probably just project "nothing" to Londo since I'm sure Kosh knew his dealings and it was kind of a big middle finger at Londo.

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Farmer Crack-Ass
Jan 2, 2001

~this is me posting irl~


mllaneza posted:

But while all this is going on at B5, a secret Earthforce shipyard is building the Shadow Omegas. They aren't going to worry about the Centauri now, Earth is too big a bite now, and they have a whole new navy building. That gets the League worlds sold out. There would absolutely have been an Earth-Centauri War if Babylon 5 and the Army of Light not kicked the Shadows and Vorlons out of the galaxy. And there's a good chance it doesn't the Centauri's way.

I think the Shadows would have manipulated Earth and Centauri to go to war against the Minbari first, what with the Minbari being the big Vorlon client state and all, and also with so many Clark supporters being still embittered from the Minbari War. That's what I think the Advanced Omega project was really aimed at.


And then if they win against the Minbari, that's when Earth and Centauri fight each other for final dominance.

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