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SlothfulCobra
Mar 27, 2011

STOP BEING EVIL.


I got the impression that the Shadows didn't know what the Vorlons were doing. That's why Morden went to try asking the question to Delenn.

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Lemniscate Blue
Apr 21, 2006

Here we go again.

Fun Shoe

SlothfulCobra posted:

I got the impression that the Shadows didn't know what the Vorlons were doing. That's why Morden went to try asking the question to Delenn.

They had just reawakened and were trying to get the lay of the land. The Minbari had been major Vorlon allies in the last war a thousand years prior. Probing whether they'd be amenable to Shadow influence was probably just perfunctory - unless as speculated above they were behind the Warrior/Religious caste conflict.

Vorlons creating telepaths to equip their allies to fight the Shadows isn't a new tactic, or the Shadows wouldn't have eradicated all the Narn telepaths in the last war. Organized groups of telepaths would be a huge priority for subversion or destruction in your opening moves.

mllaneza
Apr 28, 2007


Veteran, Bermuda Triangle Expeditionary Force, 1993-1952





Farmer Crack-rear end posted:

I think the Shadows would have manipulated Earth and Centauri to go to war against the Minbari first, what with the Minbari being the big Vorlon client state and all, and also with so many Clark supporters being still embittered from the Minbari War. That's what I think the Advanced Omega project was really aimed at.


And then if they win against the Minbari, that's when Earth and Centauri fight each other for final dominance.

Yeah, that checks out. A revenge war would be an easy sell to Clark's regime. Hell, you'd have to hold them back once that full squadron is online.

Narsham
Jun 5, 2008


DrBouvenstein posted:

Man, say what you will about The Shadows, but they are GREAT at subtle manipulation.

At some point in recent Earth history, Vorlons muck around with human DNA to create telepaths*, knowing that by the time the next Shadow War happens, humans will be space-faring and thus cold use a little help.

The Shadows notice this, and they/their servants either convince EarthGov to make the Psi Corp, or just manage to get control of it, and also manage to get the EarthGov president aligned with them through their control of the Psi Corp, effectively taking Earth out of the conflict directly, and perhaps even intentionally sparking the civil war, "Strength Through Conflict" and all that crap.

I also wonder if they had a hand in the Minbari Civil War...I know it technically happens after The Shadows left, but it was building up right before and during The Shadow War, with the Warrior's getting all pissy that the Religious Caste was more or less in charge of it and not them...and we know of at least one person in the Religious Caste had contact with The Drakh and wanted to enlist their help, and The Drakh are basically just Shadow-Lite.

The Shadows seem pretty good at adapting tactics to their enemies and understanding how to manipulate others through their desires. The Vorlons mostly decide what to do and want to force others into going along, and they tend more towards tailoring the people they are going to work with (teaching to genetic engineering) instead of meeting them where they already are.

We know a Minbari assassin, almost certainly Warrior caste, tried to indirectly kill Sinclair and destroy B5 by framing him for Kosh’s murder. Assuming the Vorlons didn’t share with the Minbari that they can be poisoned, one suspects that assassin had help from others aware of Vorlon weaknesses. And the Windswords seem to have released Deathwalker just in time to trigger a massive conflict over her immortality drug, though the Vorlons halted that gambit through direct action. The odds of a connection between elements in the Warrior caste and the Shadows seems very high.

Jedit
Dec 10, 2011

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Narsham posted:

The Shadows seem pretty good at adapting tactics to their enemies and understanding how to manipulate others through their desires. The Vorlons mostly decide what to do and want to force others into going along, and they tend more towards tailoring the people they are going to work with (teaching to genetic engineering) instead of meeting them where they already are.

We know a Minbari assassin, almost certainly Warrior caste, tried to indirectly kill Sinclair and destroy B5 by framing him for Kosh’s murder. Assuming the Vorlons didn’t share with the Minbari that they can be poisoned, one suspects that assassin had help from others aware of Vorlon weaknesses. And the Windswords seem to have released Deathwalker just in time to trigger a massive conflict over her immortality drug, though the Vorlons halted that gambit through direct action. The odds of a connection between elements in the Warrior caste and the Shadows seems very high.

Though that does beg the question of why the Shadows didn't tell Morden to avoid Delenn as well as the Vorlon.

By the way, Jha'dur wasn't released by the Wind Swords because they were never holding her. She was sheltering with them while she perfected the immortality drug. Her leaving at that particular time could just be a coincidence. A more telling piece of evidence towards collusion between the Warrior caste and the Shadows is that when Delenn made the final call to war on the Shadows the Warriors did not respond. But again that could be because they considered it a religious war rather than a war on the Minbari.

Ayin
Jan 6, 2010

Have a great day.


Jedit posted:

A more telling piece of evidence towards collusion between the Warrior caste and the Shadows is that when Delenn made the final call to war on the Shadows the Warriors did not respond.
If I understood correctly (and if I'm not thinking of a different scene), three Warriors stayed behind in that scene -- but right then, there were *four* on the Council. One of 'em broke rank (and was stopped by one of the ones who stayed behind, before they continued on).

But I'm not discounting the possibility that I couldn't count that day

Narsham
Jun 5, 2008


Jedit posted:

Though that does beg the question of why the Shadows didn't tell Morden to avoid Delenn as well as the Vorlon.

By the way, Jha'dur wasn't released by the Wind Swords because they were never holding her. She was sheltering with them while she perfected the immortality drug. Her leaving at that particular time could just be a coincidence. A more telling piece of evidence towards collusion between the Warrior caste and the Shadows is that when Delenn made the final call to war on the Shadows the Warriors did not respond. But again that could be because they considered it a religious war rather than a war on the Minbari.

Well, Morden didn't approach Kosh--they encountered each other when Morden was on his way to talk to Sinclair. And if the Shadows found someone willing to listen in the Warrior caste, why not try with the Religious as well? We've seen evidence of a Religious caste Minbari willing to cut a deal with the Shadows' servants.

Are you suggesting that the Wind Swords, who not only must have been sheltering Jha'dur but were supporting her experiments, somehow lost track of her and she slipped away? Either they permitted her to leave, or they actively supported her. She claims that she's giving her secret to Earth because Earth defeated the Dilgar, but the ending makes very clear that it's a form of attack on Earth, intended to drive humans to fight and kill one another. I suppose the Wind Swords might have been entirely innocent, but I doubt it. They told her specifically about Sinclair, and routing her through B5 instead of a direct trip to Earth runs the risk of exposure, which is only a good thing if she's meant to be provoking conflict not just among humans but between Earth and others.

I suspect what we're seeing is Minbari-style collusion. Indirection, betrayal through passivity or inaction instead of direct action, at least until the Warrior caste starts their civil war. It is interesting that the Warrior's leader, Shakiri, did not launch this conflict until after the Shadows were defeated. Even there, I suspect it was less a matter of an alliance with the Shadows and more a matter of injured pride after the Religious caste wins a war. Most likely, any collusion between Shadows and Warrior caste didn't rise to the level of support the Drahk offered to the Religious caste, but the mere fact that the Drakh knew about the internal Minbari conflict implies an existing information stream.

I would not be surprised if the Drahk made an offer to Shakiri first, and were turned down with contempt. "You offer to assist my warriors in defeating the Religious caste, after they vanquished your masters? I have no need of your help, and if it proved as effective as it was for those you served before it would be rather a hindrance!"

Ayin posted:

If I understood correctly (and if I'm not thinking of a different scene), three Warriors stayed behind in that scene -- but right then, there were *four* on the Council. One of 'em broke rank (and was stopped by one of the ones who stayed behind, before they continued on).

But I'm not discounting the possibility that I couldn't count that day

The script book says that five leave with Delenn, so all four Warriors stay. (Haven't checked the DVD to see if the staging is consistent.)

Horizon Burning
Oct 23, 2019



There are only three Warriors in the Grey Council. Three from each caste. I'd suspect that one of the Workers stayed behind.

Q_res
Oct 29, 2005

Domo Arigato, Mr Roboto.


Delenn breaking the Council is after she's replaced with a Warrior caste.

Ayin
Jan 6, 2010

Have a great day.


Narsham posted:

The script book says that five leave with Delenn, so all four Warriors stay. (Haven't checked the DVD to see if the staging is consistent.)
Well, that answers that then :B

Horizon Burning
Oct 23, 2019



Q_res posted:

Delenn breaking the Council is after she's replaced with a Warrior caste.

Oh, right.

ClydeFrog
Apr 13, 2007

Jesus Suffering Fuck how can running for 3 minutes BE SO HARD.

Found and read this thread over the last few weeks. Awesome nostalgia trip, greatly enhanced by the squabbling about protecting the Younger Races thread from over-interference in a very enjoyable and knowing parallel.

I'm thinking the YR mod is more OG Kosh than Cherry.

Have just located my dvd box set. I hope the pantheon have been kind and they all still work.

Endless Trash
Aug 12, 2007




If you want to see Walter Koenig duck behind things and shoot at people?

buddy I got a show you should see

Expired Vitamin
Jul 3, 2017



Endless Trash posted:

If you want to see Walter Koenig duck behind things and shoot at people?

buddy I got a show you should see

Is it the 1989 film, Moontrap? Walter Koenig shoots space things with his trusty sidekick played by Bruce Campbell.

X13Fen
Oct 18, 2006

"Is that an accurate quote? It should be.
I think about it often enough."


Hi all,

Reading this thread out of boredom got me into rewatching again. Currently through 1x06, but saw this in Parliament of Dreams and had to share (please excuse the hastily thrown together phone job):



He's just so gleeful that G'Kar's finally figured out he's the assassin

SnagglePuss
Aug 24, 2004
Heavens to Murgatroid!

Expired Vitamin posted:

Is it the 1989 film, Moontrap? Walter Koenig shoots space things with his trusty sidekick played by Bruce Campbell.

How have I never heard of this before!? I guess I know what I'm doing this weekend (besides working )

Expired Vitamin
Jul 3, 2017



SnagglePuss posted:

How have I never heard of this before!? I guess I know what I'm doing this weekend (besides working )

If you want proof that Walter Koenig can anchor an action flick...well this isn't it. It is bad enough to be fun though.

My uncle had a copy on VHS that he taped on HBO around the time it came out. I'm not sure I have seen it all the way through since.

ultrafilter
Aug 23, 2007

It is time for your viscera to see the light of day!

Bruce Campbell's fans don't watch his movies cause they're good.

Expired Vitamin
Jul 3, 2017



Now that I think about it, Trek may have actually gotten the idea for the Borg from Moontrap.

Jedit
Dec 10, 2011

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I did it, people. I watched Grey 17 Is Missing without screaming. Then I finished off S3 as a brain purge.

Action Jacktion
Jun 3, 2003


Expired Vitamin posted:

Now that I think about it, Trek may have actually gotten the idea for the Borg from Moontrap.

The earlier JMS series Captain Power might have inspired the Borg: one villain was a cyborg with a glowing red eyepiece, and another villain was a computer that spoke in an echoey monotone. I know those ideas aren't unique in science fiction but the fact they appeared together in a show that aired a year before the Borg were introduced makes me wonder.

Action Jacktion fucked around with this message at 15:47 on Aug 29, 2020

Endless Trash
Aug 12, 2007




Jedit posted:

I did it, people. I watched Grey 17 Is Missing without screaming. Then I finished off S3 as a brain purge.

The main story of that episode is fine, even good. And Garibaldi’s adventure is just stupid enough to be passably entertaining.

RoboChrist 9000
Dec 14, 2006

mater dolorosa

The Borg were originally intended to be insects but budgeting issues are what prompted the change to cyborg gimps. So I'm not sure if the look of the Borg was inspired by any actual inspiration/external media per se so much as it was inspired by 'well we can glue a bunch of crap to this guy and make him into a spooky cyborg.'

Ayin
Jan 6, 2010

Have a great day.


Endless Trash posted:

The main story of that episode is fine, even good. And Garibaldi’s adventure is just stupid enough to be passably entertaining.
This was my favorite episode as a kid because I've always been a huge nut for "stumbling into a lost area" stories and also Marcus, and also excellent quotes

McCloud
Oct 27, 2005





Ayin posted:

This was my favorite episode as a kid because I've always been a huge nut for "stumbling into a lost area" stories and also Marcus, and also excellent quotes

So what you're saying is it's a dumb episode that only kids would like

(obv sarcasm)

Expired Vitamin
Jul 3, 2017



At least they did not use that ape suit from the original pilot for the monster in that episode. It may have been funnier if they did though.

ultrafilter
Aug 23, 2007

It is time for your viscera to see the light of day!

The_Doctor posted:

The titles have a starfury firing on another starfury and that’s yet to be in an episode!

I was wondering when one of the newbies would pick up on that.

Jedit
Dec 10, 2011

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Robin Atkin Downes is 44 today, which is unbelievable considering how long ago S5 was made. He also looks uncannily like Jason Carter.

AntherUslessPoster
Feb 12, 2019





Jedit posted:

Robin Atkin Downes is 44 today, which is unbelievable considering how long ago S5 was made. He also looks uncannily like Jason Carter.

Who will be 60 in a few weeks

Jedit
Dec 10, 2011

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Proudly supporting the Lowtax Spine Fund 2018-19


AntherUslessPoster posted:

Who will be 60 in a few weeks

It's a good run, Delenn, especially for a B5 principal cast member.

Expired Vitamin
Jul 3, 2017



Jedit posted:

Robin Atkin Downes is 44 today, which is unbelievable considering how long ago S5 was made.

Discovering that actors I watched in my HS/College years aren't actually much older than me has become kinda normal now, but it was freaking me out regularly for a while.

Son of Sam-I-Am
Feb 12, 2002





We reached Point of No Return and Severed Dreams tonight. I so can't wait for the blind watch peeps to get there, they're so close I can taste it.

I'm watching The Expanse now (with its own blind watch thread in SciFi Wifi) and I'm liking it, but it's got a long way to go before it gets B5 good.

sebmojo
Oct 23, 2010


Legit Cyberpunk


It's p good. Definitely gonna check out that thread.

Neddy Seagoon
Oct 12, 2012

Hi, Everybody!


Son of Sam-I-Am posted:

We reached Point of No Return and Severed Dreams tonight. I so can't wait for the blind watch peeps to get there, they're so close I can taste it.

I'm watching The Expanse now (with its own blind watch thread in SciFi Wifi) and I'm liking it, but it's got a long way to go before it gets B5 good.

Season one of The Expanse is mostly putting pieces into place just as B5's does. It's well worth sticking with for what'll kick off once it all comes together though.

Expired Vitamin
Jul 3, 2017



Son of Sam-I-Am posted:

I'm watching The Expanse now (with its own blind watch thread in SciFi Wifi) and I'm liking it, but it's got a long way to go before it gets B5 good.

I kinda bounced off of The Expanse after the first few episodes. Most characters were a lot less appealing to me than their book counterparts. I've thought about giving it another try though.

Grand Fromage
Jan 30, 2006

L-l-look at you bar-bartender, a-a pa-pathetic creature of meat and bone, un-underestimating my l-l-liver's ability to metab-meTABolize t-toxins. How can you p-poison a perfect, immortal alcohOLIC?




You should, it's incredibly good and constantly gets better. The inter-crew conflict they added to the show version is mostly sorted through by the end of the first season.

Bell_
Sep 3, 2006

Tiny Baltimore





Son of Sam-I-Am posted:

We reached Point of No Return and Severed Dreams tonight. I so can't wait for the blind watch peeps to get there, they're so close I can taste it.

I'm watching The Expanse now (with its own blind watch thread in SciFi Wifi) and I'm liking it, but it's got a long way to go before it gets B5 good.

Oh poo poo I'm going there. I was wanting to start a blind watch on that since I hadn't seen it yet, but was going to wait until the B5 blind watch ended.

CainFortea
Oct 15, 2004





Grand Fromage posted:

You should, it's incredibly good and constantly gets better. The inter-crew conflict they added to the show version is mostly sorted through by the end of the first season.

I bailed after season 3? or maybe 4?

After a while the constant swapping of aliances and friendships and watching that one lady be just loving pure evil is tiring to me personally.

Son of Sam-I-Am
Feb 12, 2002





Bell_ posted:

Oh poo poo I'm going there. I was wanting to start a blind watch on that since I hadn't seen it yet, but was going to wait until the B5 blind watch ended.

The blind watch threads are the best thing about the sci fi forum, there's ones for Stargate and Farscape too. Personally I can't wait for the Lexx thread to appear.

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CainFortea
Oct 15, 2004





Son of Sam-I-Am posted:

The blind watch threads are the best thing about the sci fi forum, there's ones for Stargate and Farscape too. Personally I can't wait for the Lexx thread to appear.

I might do Lexx after i'm done doing Farscape. I promised the OP in the farscape thread that i'd do at least through season 2. But I gotta tell you it's getting harder and harder.

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