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Son of Sam-I-Am
Feb 12, 2002






Ok, poor phrasing. Freedom can be used for good or evil, of course. But freedom itself is good (as opposed to the evil of slavery and tyranny), so much so that I'm disappointed I even have to make the case.

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MrL_JaKiri
Sep 23, 2003

Ask me about my calm and reasonable opinions on cycling!

I am in no way a zealot about cycling!

Cycling helmets are ABSOLUTE HARAM!


Son of Sam-I-Am posted:

Ok, poor phrasing. Freedom can be used for good or evil, of course. But freedom itself is good (as opposed to the evil of slavery and tyranny), so much so that I'm disappointed I even have to make the case.

This is obviously a false dichotomy. You can have a society which isn't free which doesn't involve slavery or tyranny.

CharlestheHammer
Jun 26, 2011

YOU SAY MY POSTS ARE THE RAVINGS OF THE DUMBEST PERSON ON GOD'S GREEN EARTH BUT YOU YOURSELF ARE READING THEM. CURIOUS!

Technically that just involved redefining the terms.

Like how America outlawed slavery but gave themselves a loophole with criminals

V-Men
Aug 15, 2001

Don't it make your dick bust concrete to be in the same room with two noble, selfless public servants.

MrL_JaKiri posted:

The Real Ghostbusters was good

I have Captain Power on DVD somewhere, I really should bust that out.

Son of Sam-I-Am
Feb 12, 2002






MrL_JaKiri posted:

This is obviously a false dichotomy. You can have a society which isn't free which doesn't involve slavery or tyranny.

Describe such a society.

Vavrek
Mar 2, 2013

I like your style hombre, but this is no laughing matter. Assault on a police officer. Theft of police property. Illegal possession of a firearm. FIVE counts of attempted murder. That comes to... 29 dollars and 40 cents. Cash, cheque, or credit card?

CharlestheHammer posted:

Technically that just involved redefining the terms.

Like how America outlawed slavery but gave themselves a loophole with criminals

The 13th Amendment clearly says slavery is banned, except

MrL_JaKiri
Sep 23, 2003

Ask me about my calm and reasonable opinions on cycling!

I am in no way a zealot about cycling!

Cycling helmets are ABSOLUTE HARAM!


Son of Sam-I-Am posted:

Describe such a society.

I like to think (and
the sooner the better!)
of a cybernetic meadow
where mammals and computers
live together in mutually
programming harmony
like pure water
touching clear sky.

I like to think
(right now, please!)
of a cybernetic forest
filled with pines and electronics
where deer stroll peacefully
past computers
as if they were flowers
with spinning blossoms.

I like to think
(it has to be!)
of a cybernetic ecology
where we are free of our labors
and joined back to nature,
returned to our mammal
brothers and sisters,
and all watched over
by machines of loving grace.

CharlestheHammer
Jun 26, 2011

YOU SAY MY POSTS ARE THE RAVINGS OF THE DUMBEST PERSON ON GOD'S GREEN EARTH BUT YOU YOURSELF ARE READING THEM. CURIOUS!

Vavrek posted:

The 13th Amendment clearly says slavery is banned, except

Yeah but if you ask most people if prisoner labor is slavery they will say of course not.

Propaganda can do much more than legal definitions

Narsham
Jun 5, 2008


Son of Sam-I-Am posted:

Ok, poor phrasing. Freedom can be used for good or evil, of course. But freedom itself is good (as opposed to the evil of slavery and tyranny), so much so that I'm disappointed I even have to make the case.

“So if one is a prisoner of love, one must escape to solitude? If one is a prisoner of joy, must one escape to sadness?”

It’s all a matter of definition. Slavery is evil, sure. Does that make freedom good? Should I be free to poison my neighbor’s cat, for example? To shoot someone dead in the street? Are laws and regulations tyrannical, or essential for a free society?

Slavery is still constitutionally permitted in America for prisoners. Is that evil? Setting slavery aside, someone like Jeffery Epstein or a group like NXIVM unquestionably enslaved people, but without literal buying and selling of people as property. That seems evil, and yet they were able to get away with their behavior for years because they could play their right to liberty as more important than their transgressions. Set religious liberty against tyrannical practices within specific religious communities, and you’ll find that sometimes, more laws and restrictions reduce both liberty and slavery.

Nor are these positions absolutely and objectively correct. Thomas Hobbes would say that slavery and tyranny may be evils necessary to accept in order to prevent far greater evils, for example. Plato imagined philosopher-kings who would avoid being tyrants by virtue of being very enlightened. Jefferson fought against what he saw as the potential for tyranny in America’s federal government while buying and selling human beings. Lincoln suspended the right of habeus corpus during the Civil War.

Which brings us to the way in which B5 can work for people with differing political beliefs: rejecting absolute Order and absolute Chaos is just the starting point of a struggle to articulate and defend principles which themselves require constant development. G’kar’s principles may be a good start, but how you implement them gets messy fast. This is part of why I like S5: it’s much easier and cleaner to fight a war against enemies who pose an existential threat than it is to fight for your principles when they come into conflict with one another. When the telepath refugees demanded a planet, why say no after saying yes to asylum? Because you didn’t like the way they asked?

I’d be curious to see how much in-thread disagreement there is about how Sheridan and the ISA actually do, and if there’s objections to the Statement of Principles.

AntherUslessPoster
Feb 12, 2019

...bites the dust






Son of Sam-I-Am posted:

Describe such a society.

Take a lighter approach to 1984 and mix that onto current technological advancements.
Cameras and tracking devices everywhere. One can't commit a crime, no matter how small it is. Even littering or jaywalking gets instantly punished via fine on your bank account.
But the rest of the life? As we live now with work, achievements, hell maybe even meritocracy, free housing and such. Just total control over every day life.

V-Men
Aug 15, 2001

Don't it make your dick bust concrete to be in the same room with two noble, selfless public servants.

Son of Sam-I-Am posted:

Describe such a society.

https://alphacentauri.gamepedia.com/Human_Hive

Lt. Danger
Dec 22, 2006

jolly good chaps we sure showed the hun



Son of Sam-I-Am posted:

Ok, poor phrasing. Freedom can be used for good or evil, of course. But freedom itself is good (as opposed to the evil of slavery and tyranny), so much so that I'm disappointed I even have to make the case.

Subway™ Eat Fresh and Freeze, Scumbag!®

Ayin
Jan 6, 2010

Have a great day.


MrL_JaKiri posted:

This is obviously a false dichotomy. You can have a society which isn't free which doesn't involve slavery or tyranny.

Son of Sam-I-Am posted:

Describe such a society.
To do that, we need to define what and where the boundaries between "free" and "isn't free" are, as well as what is or isn't tyranny; there are common contentions like "how rulers are chosen", "acceptable religion(s)", "participation in the military", and reproductive rights, but what else?
probably fodder for another thread, tbh


It's been a while since the last time I read it, but I liked reading about the society in Tony Ballantyne's Recursion. The blurb and exerpt claim it's mainly about some nerd called Herb but the real meat of the story is in the past-era storyline centered on a woman who tried to evade the social surveillance to off herself, got caught and then committed to an asylum (one that actually seems helpful). The society is fairly unfree (job is chosen for you by supercomputers that match your personality & skills to tasks; habits and purchases are monitored and correlated) but the structure behind it genuinely tries to make its citizens content with what they get. It doesn't always succeed, as evidenced by the main characters, but it tries.

Son of Sam-I-Am
Feb 12, 2002






Narsham posted:

“So if one is a prisoner of love, one must escape to solitude? If one is a prisoner of joy, must one escape to sadness?”

It’s all a matter of definition. Slavery is evil, sure. Does that make freedom good? Should I be free to poison my neighbor’s cat, for example? To shoot someone dead in the street? Are laws and regulations tyrannical, or essential for a free society?

In these cases you're not exercising freedom, you're being, in essence, tyrannical, curtailing the freedom of others. Laws and regulations are good insofar as they protect this for all.

Not that that's helpful in resolving many specific cases since everything is a trade-off.

Burning_Monk
Jan 11, 2005
Mad, Bad, and Dangerous to know

Slavery can be defined too, for instance is a child a slave to their parent in most of society? Is it right that a parent have control of their child? What age do we grant autonomy?

ultrafilter
Aug 23, 2007





Green!

Son of Sam-I-Am
Feb 12, 2002






We just watched S4E14 "Moments of Transition" tonight and Neroon is low-key (if such a thing can be said about him) one of my favorite characters. Hard as nails, but thoughtful, honorable, and valiant. The Starfire Wheel is something straight out of like The Dark Crystal, I love it.

V-Men
Aug 15, 2001

Don't it make your dick bust concrete to be in the same room with two noble, selfless public servants.

I love how the Minbari separate their society into warrior, religious, and miscellaneous.

Endless Trash
Aug 12, 2007




Warrior, Religious, Hufflepuff

mossyfisk
Nov 8, 2010

FF0000


V-Men posted:

I love how the Minbari separate their society into warrior, religious, and miscellaneous.

wait until you hear about feudalism

V-Men
Aug 15, 2001

Don't it make your dick bust concrete to be in the same room with two noble, selfless public servants.

mossyfisk posted:

wait until you hear about feudalism

I don't literally love it. I think it's just hilarious that they decided that Worker was a great catch all for everyone who wasn't guiding spirituality or in the military.

Doctor Zero
Sep 21, 2002

Would you like a jelly baby?
It's been in my pocket through 4 regenerations,
but it's still good.

Son of Sam-I-Am posted:

We just watched S4E14 "Moments of Transition" tonight and Neroon is low-key (if such a thing can be said about him) one of my favorite characters. Hard as nails, but thoughtful, honorable, and valiant. The Starfire Wheel is something straight out of like The Dark Crystal, I love it.

Man, I agree so much. Neroon went from "I hate this douche" to "NEROON 4 EVAH!" so well, and he doesn't even really get that much screen time, when you rewatch.

Narsham
Jun 5, 2008


Doctor Zero posted:

Man, I agree so much. Neroon went from "I hate this douche" to "NEROON 4 EVAH!" so well, and he doesn't even really get that much screen time, when you rewatch.

There are a few characters, like Neroon, who you can genuinely do a mini-watch just of the episodes they appear in. His arc from the "where is my war hero's body?" to "I do not think they would die for me. But they would die... for you." to actually dying for her. And where Branmer, the dead Minbari in his first episode, was originally Religious caste but became a war leader, Neroon reverses that journey and evens the scales.

There are no doubt actors playing as regulars in long-running series who wish they had a character arc like Neroon's.

CharlestheHammer
Jun 26, 2011

YOU SAY MY POSTS ARE THE RAVINGS OF THE DUMBEST PERSON ON GOD'S GREEN EARTH BUT YOU YOURSELF ARE READING THEM. CURIOUS!

mossyfisk posted:

wait until you hear about feudalism

Feudalism did make notice of craftsmen

SnagglePuss
Aug 24, 2004
Heavens to Murgatroid!

Narsham posted:

There are a few characters, like Neroon, who you can genuinely do a mini-watch just of the episodes they appear in. His arc from the "where is my war hero's body?" to "I do not think they would die for me. But they would die... for you." to actually dying for her. And where Branmer, the dead Minbari in his first episode, was originally Religious caste but became a war leader, Neroon reverses that journey and evens the scales.

There are no doubt actors playing as regulars in long-running series who wish they had a character arc like Neroon's.

Agreed that Neroon is a fantastic character. I remain forever disappointed though that we never got a scene with John Vickery and Robin Sachs Minbari-ing it up together. That would've made for a fun scene.

ConfusedUs
Feb 24, 2004

Bees?
You want fucking bees?
Here you go!
ROLL INITIATIVE!!


Neroon is the best.

Many B5 characters chew on the scenery. They but nibble in comparison to Neroon, who chews it up, spits it out, then feeds it to the audience like a proud mama bird.

CainFortea
Oct 15, 2004





ConfusedUs posted:

Neroon is the best.

Many B5 secondary characters chew on the scenery. They but nibble in comparison to Neroon, who chews it up, spits it out, then feeds it to the audience like a proud mama bird.

ftfy.

Grand Fromage
Jan 30, 2006

L-l-look at you bar-bartender, a-a pa-pathetic creature of meat and bone, un-underestimating my l-l-liver's ability to metab-meTABolize t-toxins. How can you p-poison a perfect, immortal alcohOLIC?




ConfusedUs posted:

Neroon is the best.

Many B5 characters chew on the scenery. They but nibble in comparison to Neroon, who chews it up, spits it out, then feeds it to the audience like a proud mama bird.

Draal would like many loud words with this statement.

Doctor Zero
Sep 21, 2002

Would you like a jelly baby?
It's been in my pocket through 4 regenerations,
but it's still good.

Can you imagine if they had got Brian Blessed in the show?

Endless Trash
Aug 12, 2007




Doctor Zero posted:

Can you imagine if they had got Brian Blessed in the show?

He’d be a great First One

MrL_JaKiri
Sep 23, 2003

Ask me about my calm and reasonable opinions on cycling!

I am in no way a zealot about cycling!

Cycling helmets are ABSOLUTE HARAM!


Endless Trash posted:

He’d be a great First One

Not a great First One. The great First One.

TICK, A POSSIBILITY FOR JOY IS GONE

Narsham
Jun 5, 2008


Doctor Zero posted:

Can you imagine if they had got Brian Blessed in the show?

"Sheridan's alive?!"

I am now imagining his character in the same scene with Zathras. It may end violently.

ultrafilter
Aug 23, 2007





I'd love to have seen Brian Blessed's take on Cartagia.

SlothfulCobra
Mar 27, 2011

STOP BEING EVIL.


ultrafilter posted:

I'd love to have seen Brian Blessed's take on Cartagia.

Too likeable.

Absurd Alhazred
Mar 27, 2010

I'm the babyliberal, gotta love me!


Brian Blessed as Mollari. "Mr. Morden WHERE ARE MY SHADOW SHIPS?!"

mllaneza
Apr 28, 2007


Veteran, Bermuda Triangle Expeditionary Force, 1993-1952





Absurd Alhazred posted:

Brian Blessed as Mollari. "Mr. Morden WHERE ARE MY SHADOW SHIPS?!"

I can hear this and it's beautiful.

Doctor Zero
Sep 21, 2002

Would you like a jelly baby?
It's been in my pocket through 4 regenerations,
but it's still good.

Brian Blessed as Morden: WHAT DO YOU WANT?? *screaming up the corridor chasing after people who turn around and run at the sight of him*

Son of Sam-I-Am
Feb 12, 2002






Brian Blessed as Kosh: he doesn't say a lot, but when he talks, you listen.

Eighties ZomCom
Sep 10, 2008






Brian Blessed as a random Centauri who gets in a shouting match with Draal.

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ultrafilter
Aug 23, 2007





Honestly out of all the characters probably the best match for Brian was G'kar, but Andreas Katsulas perfected that role, so no dice.

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