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Kibayasu
Mar 28, 2010




That's a pretty good smilie.

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Doctor Zero
Sep 21, 2002

Would you like a jelly baby?
It's been in my pocket through 4 regenerations,
but it's still good.

Goblin Craft posted:

Hey guys, I have a philosophical question about the Markab. Due to the plague, they were virtually wiped out, but not completely extinct due to a few small offworld pockets. I'm not sure if they were supposed to have viable numbers to repopulate, so assuming the worst case scenario, would you call their world un-re-Markab-le?

Goblin Craft
Feb 12, 2002



Kibayasu posted:

That's a pretty good smilie.

lol, first time I've seen it but it seems appropriate

ConfusedUs
Feb 24, 2004

Bees?
You want fucking bees?
Here you go!
ROLL INITIATIVE!!




I am dead.

Doom2020!
Dec 31, 2020

If you think this has a happy ending then you really haven't been paying attention

Goblin Craft posted:

Hey guys, I have a philosophical question about the Markab. Due to the plague, they were virtually wiped out, but not completely extinct due to a few small offworld pockets. I'm not sure if they were supposed to have viable numbers to repopulate, so assuming the worst case scenario, would you call their world un-re-Markab-le?

Dad! I told you to stop posting around my mates. Stick to the gun thread and pyf. It's embarrassing.

ConfusedUs posted:

I am dead.


That is an

TK-42-1
Oct 30, 2013

looks like we have a bad transmitter




loving lol

Neddy Seagoon
Oct 12, 2012

Hi, Everybody!


Goblin Craft posted:

Hey guys, I have a philosophical question about the Markab. Due to the plague, they were virtually wiped out, but not completely extinct due to a few small offworld pockets. I'm not sure if they were supposed to have viable numbers to repopulate, so assuming the worst case scenario, would you call their world un-re-Markab-le?

There will be no hiding place for you .

Farmer Crack-Ass
Jan 2, 2001

~this is me posting irl~


Shadow war question: how were Ivanova and Marcus able to recruit the other 'First Ones'? Wouldn't they know the whole thing was a bullshit proxy war? Why would they agree to participate?

jng2058
Jul 17, 2010

We have the tools, we have the talent!



Farmer Crack-rear end posted:

Shadow war question: how were Ivanova and Marcus able to recruit the other 'First Ones'? Wouldn't they know the whole thing was a bullshit proxy war? Why would they agree to participate?

Because they name dropped Lorien and they all showed up to see what finally got him to get his rear end out of the pit on Za'ha'dum.

VinylonUnderground
Dec 14, 2020
Probation
Can't post for 48 hours!


Farmer Crack-rear end posted:

Shadow war question: how were Ivanova and Marcus able to recruit the other 'First Ones'? Wouldn't they know the whole thing was a bullshit proxy war? Why would they agree to participate?

Most First Ones left. Among the ones that stayed, you have what the scientific community would describe as a "heavily enriched" population of people who think the Vorlon-Shadow conflict is "bullshit". Also probably some people who stuck around because of petty grievances against either the Shadows or the Vorlons and want to stick something in their eyes.

As a salesman, I'll say that given what they are selling those are great populations to sell to.

McSpanky
Jan 16, 2005







jng2058 posted:

Because they name dropped Lorien and they all showed up to see what finally got him to get his rear end out of the pit on Za'ha'dum.

And once they showed up at Coriana VI they saw that it was a bullshit proxy war and convinced the Vorlons and Shadows to knock it off and skip town with them.

Zorak of Michigan
Jun 10, 2006

Waiting for his chance

Farmer Crack-rear end posted:

Shadow war question: how were Ivanova and Marcus able to recruit the other 'First Ones'? Wouldn't they know the whole thing was a bullshit proxy war? Why would they agree to participate?

I think that the first ones usually treat the younger races the way we treat animals. You might notice one from time to time and think, "Oh look, a bunny rabbit!" You might think that bunny is cute, but you wouldn't decide to take an interest in changing the way bunnies live. If it gets eaten by a hawk, there will be other bunnies in other years. But if one particular bunny keeps coming around to your door and doing something funny, then all the sudden it gets hard to be philosophical about it. Ivanova managed to make herself seem interesting.

Edit: You know how, in Matters of Honor, Sheridan complains that he hates Kosh's elliptical answers, and Kosh just says, "Good?" I feel absolutely certain that for the Vorlon, this is equivalent to the human game of pretending to throw the ball and watching the dog chase it. Hah hah! Silly human! He thought I was going to enlighten him! Isn't that adorable?

skull mask mcgee
Nov 14, 2016



Zorak of Michigan posted:

I think that the first ones usually treat the younger races the way we treat animals. You might notice one from time to time and think, "Oh look, a bunny rabbit!" You might think that bunny is cute, but you wouldn't decide to take an interest in changing the way bunnies live. If it gets eaten by a hawk, there will be other bunnies in other years. But if one particular bunny keeps coming around to your door and doing something funny, then all the sudden it gets hard to be philosophical about it. Ivanova managed to make herself seem interesting.

Edit: You know how, in Matters of Honor, Sheridan complains that he hates Kosh's elliptical answers, and Kosh just says, "Good?" I feel absolutely certain that for the Vorlon, this is equivalent to the human game of pretending to throw the ball and watching the dog chase it. Hah hah! Silly human! He thought I was going to enlighten him! Isn't that adorable?

Itís as if weíre little more than ants.

Doom2020!
Dec 31, 2020

If you think this has a happy ending then you really haven't been paying attention

Farmer Crack-rear end posted:

Shadow war question: how were Ivanova and Marcus able to recruit the other 'First Ones'? Wouldn't they know the whole thing was a bullshit proxy war? Why would they agree to participate?

Zog

Polaron
Oct 13, 2010

The Oncoming Storm


Zorak of Michigan posted:

I think that the first ones usually treat the younger races the way we treat animals. You might notice one from time to time and think, "Oh look, a bunny rabbit!" You might think that bunny is cute, but you wouldn't decide to take an interest in changing the way bunnies live. If it gets eaten by a hawk, there will be other bunnies in other years. But if one particular bunny keeps coming around to your door and doing something funny, then all the sudden it gets hard to be philosophical about it. Ivanova managed to make herself seem interesting.

It probably helped that the bunny showed up at their front door and pointed out that your dickhead neighbors keep killing all their friends and dynamiting their nests. Even if you don't think too highly of rabbits, you're probably going to go have some words with your neighbors.

double nine
Aug 8, 2013



skull mask mcgee posted:

Itís as if weíre little more than ants.

pretty sure you're thinking of cats, ants are those swimming animals with the funny nose

VinylonUnderground
Dec 14, 2020
Probation
Can't post for 48 hours!


I have been disappointed of late by the flatness of bunnies. Before the other First Ones went beyond the Rim back to Aenor bunnies were, topologically speaking, plains flanked by two great mountains and strong sinewy forests with a channel between.

CainFortea
Oct 15, 2004





double nine posted:

pretty sure you're thinking of cats, ants are those swimming animals with the funny nose

No, cats are those things with feathers, long bills, webbed feet, and go quack.

Doctor Zero
Sep 21, 2002

Would you like a jelly baby?
It's been in my pocket through 4 regenerations,
but it's still good.

Yes, cats. Thatís right. I feel like Iím being pecked to death by CATS

Jet Jaguar
Feb 12, 2006

Don't touch my bags if you please, Mr Customs Man.





Biscuit Hider

Finished Season Four this evening all of the "there were good people on both sides" stuff from Earthdome reads even worse now than it did then.

"Deconstruction of Falling Stars" is fun, though it's really weird to watch them stuff Ivanova down the memory hole. But I guess lawyers were involved and I don't now if anyone knows the whole story about what happened.

VinylonUnderground
Dec 14, 2020
Probation
Can't post for 48 hours!


Long story short: both parties were playing a game of chicken but, and this is *very* important, it was poorly communicated so instead of playing chicken two cars just drove past each other on opposite sides of the road with their headlights off, so they didn't even know the other car was there until they passed each other. Once both sides realized what had happened it was too late.

Narsham
Jun 5, 2008


Jet Jaguar posted:

"Deconstruction of Falling Stars" is fun, though it's really weird to watch them stuff Ivanova down the memory hole. But I guess lawyers were involved and I don't now if anyone knows the whole story about what happened.

If she appears, she gets paid.

Thereís blame to share, and lots of hurt feelings, but the basic parameters of the disagreement that led to Christianís departure are pretty clear now:

TNT picked up S5 but wanted cutbacks. That meant a tighter shooting schedule, and also meant cutting back on performer salaries by having most of the actors appear in fewer episodes across the season. In effect, the actors received raises but were paid for fewer episodes, translating into an effective pay cut. This was not received very happily. Because the TNT deal happened in the eleventh hour, there was a rush to resign the performers before their contracts expired. Much of this happened at a B5 convention, and many of the performers were suspicious because of the rush, the implications of the new schedule, and the difficulty in consulting their agents (as the convention was in the UK).

Itís likely the producers wanted the deals settled and took advantage of the circumstances. Christian actually lobbied to convince other performers to sign. But she wanted to work on a movie and her agent was trying to negotiate a deal whereby sheíd be released from several episodes to do that, but get paid the original offered amount for the season. That amounted to a per-episode raise. Multiple other castmembers had contracts that guaranteed them pay equal or higher than anyone else in the cast. So all their contracts would have needed to be renegotiated. More to the point, TNT wasnít providing enough money that the producers wanted to cover those increased costs. So they said no.

My guess is that her agent is most to blame, likely assuring her that she was a main player on the show, integral to the story. Heck, after being sidelined for part of S4 as the Voice of the Resistance, sheíd been promised something juicier for S5. The producers would surely cave, and her fellow performers would end up with better contracts too, so only the producers would be unhappy. The brinksmanship would force a capitulation.

Meanwhile, the B5 producers were discussing how to proceed without Christian. The deadline expired. Christianís agent got in touch after and was told it was too late, the end.

JMSís accounts are either a little self-serving or accurate in the sense that he must have had some involvement, but I canít believe Netter or Copeland would have allowed him to take a lead role in financial negotiations. The at-the-time context seems to have been Christianís agent playing hardball, with Netter and Copeland responding in kind, and JMS initially sidelined. When informed Christian hadnít signed a contract despite having been lobbying her castmates alongside him, JMS almost certainly took it as a personal betrayal and went into his vendetta mode, meaning heíd have been dead-set against a renegotiation after the deadline (which could in theory have happened). So the circumstances lost Christian the support of the only producer who might have had any sympathy, though ultimately it would have been a matter of sacrificing scenes or CGI to afford the multiple raises and JMS would have been just as hard-nosed there as Netter or Copeland.

Itís a negotiation, framed within a disfunctional system of brinksmanship. Nobody died. Nobody comes away a saint. It happens.

Blindeye
Sep 22, 2006

I can't believe I kissed you!


By the way, for those who were asking, I recommend not watching the Gathering until after season 2 because of the question of what Kosh "looks" like and his reveal at the season 2 finale.

Doctor Zero
Sep 21, 2002

Would you like a jelly baby?
It's been in my pocket through 4 regenerations,
but it's still good.

Counterpoint. They donít actually show Kosh so it is pretty mysterious.

ultrafilter
Aug 23, 2007






There are plenty of other hints that the Vorlons are very mysterious early in the show, so I'm not sure why you'd want to concentrate on that on, especially when the pilot does so much other stuff to establish the series.

Just for reference, The Gathering originally aired in February 1993, and the season 2 finale wasn't going to air until summer 1995 even before the scheduling fuckup. The decision to emphasize Kosh's appearance and keep us guessing for two years was very much intentional. You can do what you want, but this seems like a really weird decision to me.

Zat
Jan 15, 2008

I SUPPORT ALL THE PREDATORS


I think watching Gathering as the very first thing is completely fine, in terms of spoilers. It's literally the pilot anyway, it was meant as the introduction. But it's also not a crucial watch, so whatever.

Seemlar
Jun 17, 2002


Honestly the spoilers introduced in the directors cut version of The Gathering are the kind that a new viewer won't understand are spoilers until they reach the things they revealed early happen, 2-3 seasons later

VinylonUnderground
Dec 14, 2020
Probation
Can't post for 48 hours!


I haven't seen the director's cut of the Gathering. Is it worth revisiting? Because the original one was really bad.

CaptainPsyko
May 2, 2004

We're Gonna Run.

We're Gonna Crawl.

Kick Down Every Wall.


There's a Director's Cut of The Gathering?!??

Midjack
Dec 24, 2007





CaptainPsyko posted:

There's a Director's Cut of The Gathering?!??

It was shown after In The Beginning and was included on the US DVDs and seems to be the one available for streaming. They cut some stuff, most notably the walk through the alien sector where you can gawk at everything there like you're at the zoo, and replaced the original music with stuff by Franke, and added in some extra exposition. The original version was available on some European DVDs.

CainFortea
Oct 15, 2004





Counter Counter Point. I've never watched The Gathering. It's 100% fine to just ignore.

Doctor Zero
Sep 21, 2002

Would you like a jelly baby?
It's been in my pocket through 4 regenerations,
but it's still good.

ultrafilter posted:

There are plenty of other hints that the Vorlons are very mysterious early in the show, so I'm not sure why you'd want to concentrate on that on, especially when the pilot does so much other stuff to establish the series.

Just for reference, The Gathering originally aired in February 1993, and the season 2 finale wasn't going to air until summer 1995 even before the scheduling fuckup. The decision to emphasize Kosh's appearance and keep us guessing for two years was very much intentional. You can do what you want, but this seems like a really weird decision to me.

I think you misunderstand. I am advocating watching it.

I saw it when it aired and for its time it was really out there. Speculation about energy beings, but if they were, how could the poison work, etc. Much discussions were had around the gaming table.

ultrafilter
Aug 23, 2007






Zat posted:

I think watching Gathering as the very first thing is completely fine, in terms of spoilers. It's literally the pilot anyway, it was meant as the introduction. But it's also not a crucial watch, so whatever.

Seemlar posted:

Honestly the spoilers introduced in the directors cut version of The Gathering are the kind that a new viewer won't understand are spoilers until they reach the things they revealed early happen, 2-3 seasons later

I think I don't completely understand what at least some people here consider spoilers. In my mind, it's anything you find out before the creator intended. As a result, anything that you see watching the show in order isn't a spoiler. But I don't think that definition really fits with the way these two posts use the word. Can someone clarify?

Doctor Zero posted:

I think you misunderstand. I am advocating watching it.

I saw it when it aired and for its time it was really out there. Speculation about energy beings, but if they were, how could the poison work, etc. Much discussions were had around the gaming table.

I was responding to the same post that you were. Did you watch the rest of the series in the original broadcast? I thought I was the only one.

ultrafilter fucked around with this message at 18:06 on Mar 19, 2021

Vavrek
Mar 2, 2013

I like your style hombre, but this is no laughing matter. Assault on a police officer. Theft of police property. Illegal possession of a firearm. FIVE counts of attempted murder. That comes to... 29 dollars and 40 cents. Cash, cheque, or credit card?

Midjack posted:

It was shown after In The Beginning and was included on the US DVDs and seems to be the one available for streaming. They cut some stuff, most notably the walk through the alien sector where you can gawk at everything there like you're at the zoo, and replaced the original music with stuff by Franke, and added in some extra exposition. The original version was available on some European DVDs.

Huh! I always wondered about that. Criticism of that section is mentioned on the Lurker's Guide, but I was never sure what they were talking about since I only knew the US DVD version of The Gathering.

Midjack
Dec 24, 2007





ultrafilter posted:

I think I don't completely understand what at least some people here consider spoilers. In my mind, it's anything you find out before the creator intended. As a result, anything that you see watching the show in order isn't a spoiler. But I don't think that definition really fits with the way these two posts use the word. Can someone clarify?


I was responding to the same post that you were. Did you watch the rest of the series in the original broadcast? I thought I was the only one.

Kosh's hand glows in the revised version. Londo's opening monologue doesn't say Sinclair is B5's final commander anymore. I think those are the only two plot consequential things, the rest are stuff like "Privacy Mode' and "Set Your PPG To Force 5" stuff that doesn't really matter.

Seemlar
Jun 17, 2002


Midjack posted:

I think those are the only two plot consequential things, the rest are stuff like "Privacy Mode' and "Set Your PPG To Force 5" stuff that doesn't really matter.

Kosh greets Sinclair as "Entil'zha Valen" is the other one

Doctor Zero
Sep 21, 2002

Would you like a jelly baby?
It's been in my pocket through 4 regenerations,
but it's still good.

ultrafilter posted:

I was responding to the same post that you were. Did you watch the rest of the series in the original broadcast? I thought I was the only one.

Aha. Yes, mostly. I watched The Gathering but at the time it didn't grab me enough to religiously watch it. I figured it was going to be yet another low budget episodic sci-fi show. I would watch episodes here and there with my dad, but didn't pay a ton of attention. Then when discussing it with a friend he mentioned the Shadow ship and how freaky it was. He told me that there was a cool continuing story and described it and it sounded awesome. Apparently I had managed to only see the (sort of terrible) stand-alone episodes. So S2, E1 I sat down and started paying attention and following. When Interludes and Examinations aired I declared it to be the greatest TV Show of all Time.

Erulisse
Feb 12, 2019

A bad poster trying to get better.


Goblin Craft posted:

The Something Awful Forums > The Finer Arts > TV IV > Babylon 5: would you call their world un-re-Markab-le?

IMO this thread needs a lighter tone title

Iron Crowned
May 6, 2003


ultrafilter posted:

I was responding to the same post that you were. Did you watch the rest of the series in the original broadcast? I thought I was the only one.

I remember watching The Gathering with my dad when it aired on the tiny kitchen TV with a car battery because the power had been knocked out by a major storm.

I didn't really watch again until about season 3 because B5 came on at the same time I went to youth group because I was a giant dork in my early years

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Absurd Alhazred
Mar 27, 2010
Probation
Can't post for 4 hours!


Erulisse posted:

IMO this thread needs a lighter tone title

I don't know if a jokey reference to a mass extinction event for a sentient species is "light".

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