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CainFortea
Oct 15, 2004




I'm not sure I see how a bunch of people actively keeping secrets from Zack makes him a loser.

I think that's kind of the point.

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Polaron
Oct 13, 2010

The Oncoming Storm


MikusR posted:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A9xMd0ln_rE&t=73s
At 1:13 you can hear the original voice of Delenn with the filter.

Was the big reveal going to be that the Minbari had been conquered by the Gou'a'uld?

Narsham
Jun 5, 2008


Super Deuce posted:

The Zack fascism thing is frustrating because nobody was like, “Hey Zack, this is fascism. Maybe don’t do that. Here is a 20th century history book.”

If history is any guide, that's at least as likely to solidify the person you give the book to into fascism as to ease them away from it.

And the show does play that aspect up when Garibaldi tells Zack "you did the right thing" and Zack points out that the fascists told him that when he was helping them. But then he adds that he thinks this time, he did actually do the right thing. He had to make up his own mind, and he did, and that's the triumph for him.

pentyne
Nov 7, 2012
turdiak


Garibaldi was the special kind of 90s fascist where the distrust for the government was so immense and yeah he'd be down with warrentless executions but it would have to be only him and all his close buddies as the ones making the call literally no one else in government could be trusted at all.

He's Dale Gribble, not real life Jerry Doyle.

SlothfulCobra
Mar 27, 2011



Starting rewatching season 5, and I really don't remember much about this season. I'm not really sure how much I've seen of it. I know I've seen some, but there's a lot I don't remember.

Lochley as a probably-clarkist officer I remember, and that's nested deeply in JMS seeming to couch a lot of things in his understanding of American history that doesn't seem to be very deep or critical. Like if he knew much about Andrew Johnson, that would destroy a lot of his take. Also Lincoln wasn't assassinated by a "soldier from the other side", John Wilkes Boothe was an actor, and his mother actually made him promise to not sign up to be a soldier with the confederacy. He still was such a weird freak about the confederacy that he got disowned by his brother in New York. A lot like the bizarrely obsessive to the point of mania attitude that I've heard about Lee Harvey Oswald that pointedly is never mentioned in the episode despite being obviously a strong inspiration.

But right after the episode where they make a little point about reconciling with the people on the wrong side of the war, you get an episode with a cool dream sequence for Londo, and has the big "You said NOTHING! You had an OBLIGATION to speak out!" moral, which takes the exact opposite stance from reconciling with the people who defended the fascist human regime killing civilians and torturing dissidents. It's a really neat episode, but it really seems to retcon some things that happened in season 4. Does saying something matter more than plotting the assassination of the culprit? I'm pretty sure Londo did try to apologize to G'kar and make amends, but G'kar wasn't interested. It's a really neat episode, but I don't think it works in the long run other than to recap the beginning of season 4 and re-traumatize Londo to make things fresh. Also the Lennier subplot was...weird.

And then there's the psychic colony guy who doesn't get how jobs work. "We are willing to work to own our keep, but we will not take orders!" Fuckin' stupid guy. That'll get you fired from McD's.

alexandriao
Jul 20, 2019

"What're quantum mechanics?"
"I don't know. People who repair quantums, I suppose."


SlothfulCobra posted:

It's a really neat episode, but it really seems to retcon some things that happened in season 4. Does saying something matter more than plotting the assassination of the culprit? I'm pretty sure Londo did try to apologize to G'kar and make amends, but G'kar wasn't interested. It's a really neat episode, but I don't think it works in the long run other than to recap the beginning of season 4 and re-traumatize Londo to make things fresh. Also the Lennier subplot was...weird.

IIRC Londo's idea of an apology was to say "lol what a crazy few years. wanna drink to peace?" which, while for Londo was a pretty heartfelt "I hosed up" thing, to G'Kar was an insulting way of avoiding actually taking culpability for the murder of millions that culminated in the near-destruction of his home planet and the loss of his eye.

Narsham
Jun 5, 2008


SlothfulCobra posted:

Starting rewatching season 5, and I really don't remember much about this season. I'm not really sure how much I've seen of it. I know I've seen some, but there's a lot I don't remember.

Lochley as a probably-clarkist officer I remember, and that's nested deeply in JMS seeming to couch a lot of things in his understanding of American history that doesn't seem to be very deep or critical. Like if he knew much about Andrew Johnson, that would destroy a lot of his take. Also Lincoln wasn't assassinated by a "soldier from the other side", John Wilkes Boothe was an actor, and his mother actually made him promise to not sign up to be a soldier with the confederacy. He still was such a weird freak about the confederacy that he got disowned by his brother in New York. A lot like the bizarrely obsessive to the point of mania attitude that I've heard about Lee Harvey Oswald that pointedly is never mentioned in the episode despite being obviously a strong inspiration.

It's unclear whether this is a deliberate mistake, with Garibaldi's knowledge of history being wrong, or a JMS mistake. (It's "Booth," BTW.) As for why JFK isn't mentioned, the show already did that in S1, down to having Clark's swearing in staged identically to LBJ's.

SlothfulCobra posted:

But right after the episode where they make a little point about reconciling with the people on the wrong side of the war, you get an episode with a cool dream sequence for Londo, and has the big "You said NOTHING! You had an OBLIGATION to speak out!" moral, which takes the exact opposite stance from reconciling with the people who defended the fascist human regime killing civilians and torturing dissidents. It's a really neat episode, but it really seems to retcon some things that happened in season 4. Does saying something matter more than plotting the assassination of the culprit? I'm pretty sure Londo did try to apologize to G'kar and make amends, but G'kar wasn't interested. It's a really neat episode, but I don't think it works in the long run other than to recap the beginning of season 4 and re-traumatize Londo to make things fresh. Also the Lennier subplot was...weird.

And then there's the psychic colony guy who doesn't get how jobs work. "We are willing to work to own our keep, but we will not take orders!" Fuckin' stupid guy. That'll get you fired from McD's.

I'd argue the tension is deliberate, and however much the show seems to be on Sheridan's side over Garibaldi's, it's clear that while there's a distinction between not intervening when an atrocity is being committed in front of you and contributing indirectly to atrocities you don't know for certain are occurring, punishing everyone on the assumption they were active collaborators just isn't in the realm of possibility.

There's no S4 retcon that I can see. The show even establishes the possibility that one of Londo's chances at redemption was to save G'Kar's eye, but he doesn't bother to intervene at that moment. Londo cared about how he could use G'Kar to kill Cartagia, but it's arguable the point at which he starts caring about G'Kar himself, as a person. By S5, he definitely does, and he's carrying guilt. Londo is directly responsible for most of what happened in his war--arguably, if you took the assassin's argument in the previous episode and applied it to Londo, it wouldn't seem all that wrong, though what Londo ends up accepting is far worse than being shot.

Londo has said "sorry" before on the show, despite the claims, but it's quite clear when he says it that he doesn't really mean it. He obviously does in this instance, and it does lead to G'Kar forgiving him late in the season, so that's the arc being established here. Londo is holding himself to a higher standard than G'Kar does, clearly. And the show upholds that in S5 as well.

In "The Fall of Centauri Prime":
"I can't stay. I just wanted to see how you were."
"Better. I would be dead if not for you. You risked your life to save mine."
"Yes. You would have done the same."
"Yes, but I am a better person."

G'Kar's not demanding as much from Londo as Londo demands of himself. That's the point. Londo has to apologize, genuinely, to G'Kar because he, Londo, needs to do that, not because G'Kar needs to hear it. And it's because Londo needs it for himself that G'Kar can really accept it.

As for the Lennier subplot, I'd guess that's about 40% JMS keeping stuck in his head the thing he got in there when Mumy said he thought Lennier loved Delenn, 30% JMS wanting to use Lennier to establish some of the Centauri/Drahk raiding plotline instead of establishing a new character or handling it off-screen, and 30% wanting to mess with Mumy. Delenn has fewer interesting plotlines of her own in S5, and what she's got mostly doesn't need Lennier, so adding this one generates more for her and for them as performers on-screen. None of that means it was a really good idea, of course.

SlothfulCobra
Mar 27, 2011



So just a little bit after the episode about the Rangers taking their violent yet spiritual revenge against some thug in Down Below after he was violent to one of their number, there's the episode about the psychic cult taking their revenge against some thug in Down Below after he was violent to one of their number. The B-plot was interesting at first, but kinda fizzled out. Felt a bit like a weaker rehash of the main point of the Drafa Plague episode. Or maybe my memory conflated the two? Or maybe there's some third Star Trek episode that I'm conflating the both with. Either way, a samey episode.

But really the whole episode was treading water in order to end on the sex reveal about the Vorlons to move the weird cult to its next phase. I know that the show has shown some prejudice against telepaths, but the way that nearly every telepath character ends up being a segregationist despising the "mundanes" in their own way doesn't help build sympathy. And here's this stuttering kid as a telekinetic that in season 1 nobody had heard of before.

MrL_JaKiri
Sep 23, 2003

A bracing glass of carrot juice!


SlothfulCobra posted:

And here's this stuttering kid as a telekinetic that in season 1 nobody had heard of before.

You're misremembering, telekinetics are a thing in S1 (the first time "teep" is used as a term, it's to distinguish pure telepaths from teeks (telekinetics)).

SlothfulCobra
Mar 27, 2011



So finally after the telepath cult runs its course with its bold and noble horrifying mass suicide (I guess it's not as bad as it could be because it was just longhair man and the terrorists, while they say the non-criminal telepaths get away), the show gets to dive into more traditional religion with criticisms of biblical literalism now that G'kar's become a prophet. I guess there's a parallel between G'kar getting the responsibility of prophecy thrust upon him against his will and Londo becoming extremely reticent to take the throne.

I don't see the logic in not telling Londo about the Centauri being linked to the alien raids. They already trust that he's not behind it, but protecting him by not telling him details about the nest of thorns he's already embedded in? Ridiculous. It's not making him any safer. He's already been investigating where the military spending is going, he's already doing the investigation the others worry will get him killed. Knowing details would help him. He knows how to maneuver with hostile allies.

Also at this point in rewatching the show, I had been totally blanking on a lot of details, I had forgotten all about the psychic cult, I wasn't sure if I had even watched the last season, but I did remember most about G'kar and Londo. So it's comforting to be back in familiar territory. I guess season 5 is a lot like season 1 in that there's a lot of one-episode plots, so not as much linking things together, but since it's at the back of the show, I hadn't gotten to it in earlier half-hearted rewatches.

Clouseau
Aug 3, 2003

My theories appall you, my heresies outrage you, I never answer letters, and you don't like my tie.

CW CEO confirms that B5 pilot is still in active development this morning.

B5 seems like it was such a bizarre shot of luck for JMS that he's never been able to replicate, and I still am extremely skeptical, but please please let it happen.

ultrafilter
Aug 23, 2007

It's okay if you have any questions.
:fart:



I'll believe it when I see it.

Koirhor
Jan 14, 2008

Made In Abyss Superfan

Clouseau posted:

CW CEO confirms that B5 pilot is still in active development this morning.

B5 seems like it was such a bizarre shot of luck for JMS that he's never been able to replicate, and I still am extremely skeptical, but please please let it happen.

If you can’t trust Pedowitz who can you trust?

Narsham
Jun 5, 2008


Clouseau posted:

CW CEO confirms that B5 pilot is still in active development this morning.

B5 seems like it was such a bizarre shot of luck for JMS that he's never been able to replicate, and I still am extremely skeptical, but please please let it happen.

Given CW’s mass cancelations in this cycle, holding over the pilot seems like an attempt to protect against a 5-year arc show getting one year and then canceled. Having even one executive that protective of the show is a drat sight better than the original ever had.

Granted, who knows if Pedowitz will be CEO of anything by next year? If you’re relying on someone at the top looking out for your show, you’re in trouble if they leave.

MikusR
Jan 5, 2008


Another hd render
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VSX-JH-ZpxE

Also Straczynski Commentary on COMES THE INQUISITOR
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cdBAzio-EEc

SlothfulCobra
Mar 27, 2011



I think Meditations on the Abyss is my favorite season 5 episode so far. It has a real mix of things. G'kar trying to figure out how to deal with his following, Franklin getting a chance to see more alien culture, Londo dealing with the League of Worlds breathing down his neck, Lennier having his own moment of triumph (and a new look at the inside of a Minbari fighter, I like the effect of projecting screens on to the actors' faces), and Vir having to assert himself.

The previous episode was fine, and high-concept enough, but it's not very fun following the life of a Psy-cop and seeing their perspective on their genetic supremacy movement. Oh no, people seem to hate and distrust the police, how could they? Oh well, time to secretly dump this genetic dead-end in space with no record or trial while covering up his serial-killing telepath friend.

ultrafilter
Aug 23, 2007

It's okay if you have any questions.
:fart:



Yeah, that's where all the set up from earlier in the season starts to pay off. For as much as we complain about season 5 overall, the last ten or so episodes are a real high point of the series overall.

Terra-da-loo!
Apr 6, 2008

Sufficiently kickass.


Started watching this series the other week. Great stuff.

ultrafilter
Aug 23, 2007

It's okay if you have any questions.
:fart:



If you care about spoilers the blind watch thread is better to follow your first time through. If not, keep posting here. Either way you're in for a treat.

Farmer Crack-Ass
Jan 2, 2001

~this is me posting irl~



Did they grab the audio from a PAL release? It seems too high-pitched.

EDIT: Ah, yep, that's it. Well, it's still visually spectacular.

Farmer Crack-Ass fucked around with this message at 04:20 on Jun 21, 2022

Narsham
Jun 5, 2008


Farmer Crack-rear end posted:

Did they grab the audio from a PAL release? It seems too high-pitched.

EDIT: Ah, yep, that's it. Well, it's still visually spectacular.

It may be intentional to avoid the video being blocked by Youtube.

MikusR
Jan 5, 2008


Narsham posted:

It may be intentional to avoid the video being blocked by Youtube.

Even Straczynski commentaries have no episode audio.

Terra-da-loo!
Apr 6, 2008

Sufficiently kickass.


ultrafilter posted:

If you care about spoilers the blind watch thread is better to follow your first time through. If not, keep posting here. Either way you're in for a treat.

I not only don't mind spoilers, but I quite like them. Sometimes they help me decide whether or not I wanna give a show, book or movie a chance. Spoilers are my friends.

Edit: that said I do respect that most people don't think like I do on the topic, so I still respect not spoiling stuff for others

ConfusedUs
Feb 24, 2004

Bees?
You want fucking bees?
Here you go!
ROLL INITIATIVE!!







Terra-da-loo! posted:

I not only don't mind spoilers, but I quite like them. Sometimes they help me decide whether or not I wanna give a show, book or movie a chance. Spoilers are my friends.

Holy poo poo I'm not the only one.

Terra-da-loo!
Apr 6, 2008

Sufficiently kickass.


ConfusedUs posted:

Holy poo poo I'm not the only one.

Nope! There's like a whole four or five of us in existence lol. Like I said, I still try to expect other people wanting to avoid them. Personally, though, a lot of times one of the first steps I take in deciding whether or not i want to engage with a work--especially longer ones like B5--is do some light plot research to see some of the places the story goes, so I know if I think it's worth my time or whatever.

Winifred Madgers
Feb 12, 2002



Terra-da-loo! posted:

Nope! There's like a whole four or five of us in existence lol. Like I said, I still try to expect other people wanting to avoid them. Personally, though, a lot of times one of the first steps I take in deciding whether or not i want to engage with a work--especially longer ones like B5--is do some light plot research to see some of the places the story goes, so I know if I think it's worth my time or whatever.

That's a respectable and defensible position for sure. I think most people exist on that continuum somewhere, otherwise you'd never be able to judge what to give your time to. I've also found that fan criticism can be a good inoculation and help me better enjoy things like e.g. Andromeda and Stargate Universe, knowing and being prepared for their faults instead of being blindsided by them.

ConfusedUs
Feb 24, 2004

Bees?
You want fucking bees?
Here you go!
ROLL INITIATIVE!!







Winifred Madgers posted:

That's a respectable and defensible position for sure. I think most people exist on that continuum somewhere, otherwise you'd never be able to judge what to give your time to. I've also found that fan criticism can be a good inoculation and help me better enjoy things like e.g. Andromeda and Stargate Universe, knowing and being prepared for their faults instead of being blindsided by them.

Yes. Any respectable Babylon 5 fan will absolutely say something like "Babylon 5 is incredible, but"

...but Season 1 is uneven
...but the first half of Season 5 is weird, mostly due to a surprise series renewal.
...but the CGI is extremely 90s
...but it's worth it just for Londo and G'kar in the elevator.

Terra-da-loo!
Apr 6, 2008

Sufficiently kickass.


Personally I love the old school cgi. Yeah, it's a little rough, some of it even for it's time, but I feel that's part of the charm, personally. I eeally love all the neat spaceship flybys and stuff. One of those nerds that can't get enough space vehicle porn lol

I'm up to Babylon Squared in the first season. I started watching it last night but i was dozing off, and when (I'm gonna assume I don't need to use spoiler tags for this thread, lmk if I'm mistaken) B4 made ots reappearance I decided to wait til I was more awake to watch it. Seems like an exciting premise--I loved Jinxo describing it "wrinkling" before vanishing a few eps back

Edit: also, glad my spoiler-embracing ways makes sense to some of you guys.

Terra-da-loo! fucked around with this message at 22:05 on Jun 22, 2022

Data Graham
Dec 28, 2009

📈📊🍪😋





Just pregame for B5 by watching some Mind's Eye videos.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WehxxVDzYME

Terra-da-loo!
Apr 6, 2008

Sufficiently kickass.


Data Graham posted:

Just pregame for B5 by watching some Mind's Eye videos.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WehxxVDzYME

Ahaha. Idk, just reminds me of childhood and stuff. I know it's jank af but I like it.

Delsaber
Oct 1, 2013

This may or may not be correct.



Data Graham posted:

Just pregame for B5 by watching some Mind's Eye videos.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WehxxVDzYME

So this is what vaporwave videos have been stealing from for the last ten years

Some of the weirder CG things in early B5 would fit right in, like the Jason Ironheart transformation. Not too far off from some of the Alpha Centauri secret project completion videos either

Cheap Trick
Jan 4, 2007



This was one of my first major experiences of CGI when I was a kid. Mind blowing entertainment on a good ol' CRT.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HL0RH3x7Zzo

Also, Captain Power and the Soldiers of the Future (JMS does it again!)

SlothfulCobra
Mar 27, 2011



Watched River of Souls. I guess I misjudged where it goes in the episode order. It's better than thirdspace, but still not very good. There's at least the one subplot. I kinda felt like I'd enjoy it more if the movie was more just about the holobrothel. The shoprunner was a much better villain than the scientist. Nice to see Martin Sheen I guess.

The point I'm at in rewatching the series, war just broke out between the Alliance and Centauri Prime. I think Sheridan mishandled this on every level. He should've told Londo about their suspicions so that they could've worked with him to expose the secret faction in the Centauri government. If they had any kind of friendship or working relationship that mattered, he could've tried talking before springing everything on Londo at once with an impossible ultimatum over allegations that Londo couldn't ever believe on just the spur of the moment, and the entire force of the alliance would be bearing down on both Sheridan and Londo to prevent actual calm negotiations and investigation. It's a weird inverse of how Zack is dealing with Garibaldi's relapse alcoholism by trying to talk it out and be understanding but still letting him know that he has a problem.

Weirdly a lot of fun jokes and gags for such a tense dramatic time.

Narsham
Jun 5, 2008


SlothfulCobra posted:

The point I'm at in rewatching the series, war just broke out between the Alliance and Centauri Prime. I think Sheridan mishandled this on every level. He should've told Londo about their suspicions so that they could've worked with him to expose the secret faction in the Centauri government. If they had any kind of friendship or working relationship that mattered, he could've tried talking before springing everything on Londo at once with an impossible ultimatum over allegations that Londo couldn't ever believe on just the spur of the moment, and the entire force of the alliance would be bearing down on both Sheridan and Londo to prevent actual calm negotiations and investigation. It's a weird inverse of how Zack is dealing with Garibaldi's relapse alcoholism by trying to talk it out and be understanding but still letting him know that he has a problem.

Weirdly a lot of fun jokes and gags for such a tense dramatic time.

It's almost like the guy whose greatest strengths were military leadership and inspiring others might just not be that good at that whole diplomacy thing. And while it's perhaps understandable that in the first year of the Alliance, it's still being operated as if it were fundamentally no different from the military forces that fought the Shadows and Vorlons, as a developing polity and governmental structure, it represents something that Sheridan has virtually no experience with whatsoever. Delenn spent time as protege to the Minbari Head of State; G'kar was a member of the Narn ruling body; Sheridan was Earthforce military and his main knowledge of government and diplomacy would be through his father.

Sheridan was great at rallying people to work together against a mutual foe. Keeping them from working together against someone they consider a mutual foe: that's trickier.

It's likely Sheridan learned on the job, but I don't think there can be much doubt that when Delenn took his place as ISA president and he took the position of Ranger One, they were both shifting into jobs better suited for them.

2nd Amendment
Jun 8, 2022
Probation
Can't post for 30 days!


River of Soul and Thirdspace are only fun/good in the context of dark distorted mirror. if he hadn't been killed by the Armenian mob, I wonder what gold Gareth would have spun from the Untold Tales and the Legend of the Rangers.

Jedit
Dec 10, 2011

Proudly supporting vanilla legends 1994-2014



2nd Amendment posted:

River of Soul and Thirdspace are only fun/good in the context of dark distorted mirror. if he hadn't been killed by the Armenian mob, I wonder what gold Gareth would have spun from the Untold Tales and the Legend of the Rangers.

What the hell are you talking about?

2nd Amendment
Jun 8, 2022
Probation
Can't post for 30 days!


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Gareth_Williams

Jedit
Dec 10, 2011

Proudly supporting vanilla legends 1994-2014




And what the gently caress does this have to do with Babylon 5 spinoffs?

Absurd Alhazred
Mar 27, 2010

:rip:


Jedit posted:

And what the gently caress does this have to do with Babylon 5 spinoffs?

That's Gareth Wyn Williams. I guess it's a confusion with Gareth David Williams, who wrote these alternate-history fanfics? They're both Gareth Williams, both born in 1978 in Wales, but otherwise seem to have led different lives, unless the biography here is a fabrication.

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Open Source Idiom
Jan 4, 2013


Absurd Alhazred posted:

That's Gareth Wyn Williams. I guess it's a confusion with Gareth David Williams, who wrote these alternate-history fanfics? They're both Gareth Williams, both born in 1978 in Wales, but otherwise seem to have led different lives, unless the biography here is a fabrication.

I don't think it's possible to be called Gareth Williams and not be born in Wales.

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