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When I came of age, as is custom in my family, my grandfather gave me a car. In my case, I left it in my grandparents garage because I was a poor student, and money wasn't entirely available, and I didn't have any mechanical experience / confidence I could keep it on the road. I bought a motorcycle, and have fallen down that particular hole for the last decade. An embarrassing amount of time has passed, and it has become clear that my grandparents, who I have always viewed as wonderful immortals, are indeed human like the rest of us. And with that, it's time to retrieve this gift and treat it like it my stock car racing grandfather would have treated it, by getting it running and driving the hell out of it. Unfortunately, it's not looking like I'll be able to get my grandfathers help on working on the car itself due to health concerns, all other car forums are their usual cesspool, so I figured I would escape from the asylum where I usually hang out and turn to you guys for help. The car is a 1972 Pontiac LeMans, with a Chevy 350 in it. It's currently mated to a 3 speed automatic, with some very odd looking square headers dropping to a set of glass packs and some wheel exit exhausts. The car was repainted, it's definitely not an OEM color, and it has some form of disk swap up front. It's currently living in Oregon, and I'm down in the Bay Area. So, with the stage laid, there's a couple of problems to solve here. The first for me is: I am very comfortable working on bikes, but cars are generally not my area of expertise (although I've done all the work on the wife's cayenne, our 93 pickup, etc). I've got a list of stuff that I think the car will need: quote:Front Calipers/pads/rotors Do folks have thoughts on stuff I'm missing here? The second question is: what do folks suggest for getting the car from Portland to the Bay Area? I've considered renting a uhaul, paying a car transport service, etc, but it'd be real nice to be able to ride up on the motorcycle and bring the bike and car back together. Is it realistic to rent something to do that? Anyone done it/have recommendations? Third question: the garage is full of bikes and rather small, and the driveway is so tilted it might not even be possible to get the car in the garage. Does anyone have Bay Area recommendations for places where I can both keep and work on the car? Tool rental as well would be nice but I could probably figure something out. Fourth: what do people recommend for reliability on these cars? I've got the bikes for speed, the car should be comfortable and reliable. Here's some pictures, sorry for the poor quality and angles, digging the car out of the garage will take a little work...    Thanks for any and all help 
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Aug 22, 2016 04:41
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Haha holy god. That list is missing input/output shaft seals for the tranny and a rear main seal for the engine, off the top of my head. How long has it sat for? You'll need brake hoses and possibly some hard lines too. Also that carb looks like death and an off-the-shelf replacement might be a better bet than trying to rebuild it, but I'll defer to someone more american on that.
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Aug 22, 2016 07:04
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You have the base list covered - basically anythig that can perish should be changed. Carb and tank will need to be cleaned. If you are fine wrenching on motorbikes, nothing here will be a challenge. Should be a nice competent bit of classic muscle What will be a challenge is fending of "I wanna buy this" offers in the coming years. That's one hell of a gift car to say the least. Your grandfather is an incredible man
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Aug 22, 2016 09:33
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You'd be insane to drive it back...  that said you're probably gonna blow one of the following on the trip: pas pump engine main oil seals trans input/yoke seal pinion seal 1 caliper will seize or a wheelbearing. bring a spare voltage regulator too... If you'd want a second set of eyeballs I'm game.
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Aug 22, 2016 13:54
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Seems to me like your best bet would be to ride your bike up there, and then rent a small U-Haul truck and car dolly. Bike and any other crap you are bringing home goes in the truck, truck tows the car, and everyone makes it home in relative ease.
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Aug 22, 2016 15:50
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Cold Old posted:Seems to me like your best bet would be to ride your bike up there, and then rent a small U-Haul truck and car dolly. Bike and any other crap you are bringing home goes in the truck, truck tows the car, and everyone makes it home in relative ease. Weak, you get the upgraded AAA membership and get it towed 100 miles at a time. Edit: But really you should have someone in portland make it road ready because they are probably cheaper then bay area service guys. Where does 14 inch work?
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Aug 22, 2016 16:24
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Elephanthead posted:Weak, you get the upgraded AAA membership and get it towed 100 miles at a time. I have the top AAA and it is now a 200 mile tow (and I actually had an emergency and had to use it so that easily surpassed my premiums for the past 10 years just from one use)
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Aug 22, 2016 16:49
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That doesn't look like a chevy 350 in it, and it wouldn't have come with one from the factory. So unless thats swapped, its a BOP 350. Which is a big block 350, and is the same physical size as the pontiac/buick 455. My first car project was working on a 70 lemans, and it was around 2000, so everything was pre-internet and not as easy to get information. Small block 350's look hilariously small comparatively, and the cross member wouldn't support the mounts for one. Transmission would have to be different, etc. 400/455 also have different k-members so its not an easy swap either. But now I bet there are kits etc you can get. As high school kids we were trying to do it for almost free, which means that the car is still in a garage, not running.
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Aug 22, 2016 17:35
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blindjoe posted:That doesn't look like a chevy 350 in it, and it wouldn't have come with one from the factory. Doesn't the buick 350 have the distributor in the front? Those look like SBC valve covers, intake, etc. to me.
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Aug 22, 2016 21:01
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Raluek posted:Doesn't the buick 350 have the distributor in the front? Those look like SBC valve covers, intake, etc. to me. Pontiac's is in the back. This random internet picture shows them both from the front and back, blue is pontiac, red is SBC. http://transamcountry.com/community/index.php?topic=64155.0 you can't really tell from z3n's picture, but just be sure before you start ordering random SBC parts.
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Aug 22, 2016 21:16
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blindjoe posted:Pontiac's is in the back. Oh weird, I thought all BPOs were the same. I've never owned one, just Chevys and a Ford  Yeah a better-lit photo (use the flash, maybe?) would clear it up.
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Aug 22, 2016 21:22
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Slavvy posted:Haha holy god. Yeah, I'm not sure what to do carb wise (especially considering I'm not sure what engine is in there...haha). CAT INTERCEPTOR posted:You have the base list covered - basically anythig that can perish should be changed. Carb and tank will need to be cleaned. If you are fine wrenching on motorbikes, nothing here will be a challenge. Should be a nice competent bit of classic muscle I think I'll probably end up "ruining" it in the search for more power, it's already not OEM/numbers matching, and I don't have much patience for fappery around matching numbers and poo poo. Coming from a long line of racers, too fast is almost fast enough. cursedshitbox posted:You'd be insane to drive it back... I'm probably not going to do the crazy thing, despite my desire to do so. Cold Old posted:Seems to me like your best bet would be to ride your bike up there, and then rent a small U-Haul truck and car dolly. Bike and any other crap you are bringing home goes in the truck, truck tows the car, and everyone makes it home in relative ease. This seems like the reasonable thing to do...just need to figure out storage. Elephanthead posted:Weak, you get the upgraded AAA membership and get it towed 100 miles at a time. everdave posted:I have the top AAA and it is now a 200 mile tow (and I actually had an emergency and had to use it so that easily surpassed my premiums for the past 10 years just from one use) I've already got the 200 mile tow range, haha. It'd be tempting to try and get it within range of home, but I'll probably take the boring, safer option. I've had 2 incidents where it's already paid for itself - tows from near max range, no problems. blindjoe posted:That doesn't look like a chevy 350 in it, and it wouldn't have come with one from the factory. After reading on the flight home, I realized I should have looked at the block numbers - it's definitely swapped, but I don't know what the details are past that. I wasn't even aware there was a difference in available 350s - I figured they were all roughly the same. Raluek posted:Doesn't the buick 350 have the distributor in the front? Those look like SBC valve covers, intake, etc. to me. blindjoe posted:Pontiac's is in the back. Raluek posted:Oh weird, I thought all BPOs were the same. I've never owned one, just Chevys and a Ford Much appreciated to both of you here - I just pulled the cover back and took a picture, and am 500 miles away from the car now - any knowledge that could be dropped on differences between 350s would be great. As to me: I'm gonna figure out if I can re-arrange the garage somehow to get it to fit, because I don't think it's going to be cost effective to store the car somewhere and work on it. I'll likely be getting rid of the 93 Toyota pickup I have to make space - anyone here interested? Needs timing adjusted, an exhaust gasket, and it should pass smog. Fresh engine in it at 248k, now at almost 300k.
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Aug 23, 2016 01:44
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If you have a garage do what you can to make it fit without question, build a shed for your bikes if you have too, because once you start working on it you're not going to want to make trips back and forth between your home and a storage facility.....Having a project at home is a HUGE plus. Besides, once you get it running and looking nice you're going to want a place for it anyway. Bikes stored in a shed, and you can pull out the car if you need to work on bikes in the garage. That's if you have room to put a shed, just my opinion. That being said, congrats on owning the best year Lemans/GTO ever made, they are beautiful cars. Throw a Hotchkis suspension kit on it and drive it every day.
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Aug 23, 2016 02:34
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You could always start it and see which orifice pisses oil then order parts? But hey, I'm gun-ho.
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Aug 23, 2016 02:55
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Z3n posted:Yeah, I'm not sure what to do carb wise (especially considering I'm not sure what engine is in there...haha). Edelbrock Performer RPM air-gap square-bore intake manifold for whatever motor it ends up being, and a Holley-style 650dp (I think quickfuel is the best bang for buck at the moment). Bam. someone correct me if there's a better go-to combo Z3n posted:any knowledge that could be dropped on differences between 350s would be great. Those motors are very different, maybe there's a PDX goon who can swing by with a camera? They're completely different engine families. I don't suppose you got a good look at it? The BPO has a freeze plug right on the front of the head there, and the Chevy doesn't. That's the first thing I would look for as an obvious difference, if you aren't familiar enough to be able to go "well it looks like a X" at a glance.
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Aug 23, 2016 04:42
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Yeah, there's a number of goons around PDX, myself included. Depending on where it is (I'm on the west side of town), I could drive over and get some pictures on my phone if nothing else. I'm sure there'd be more volunteers as well.
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Aug 23, 2016 05:45
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The picture is pretty potato, but Buick 350 manifolds have sort of rectangular looking runners, and the dizzy is on the driver's side sort of under the upper radiator hose. Check out T/A Performance. As far as I know the only Buick 350 house around. I used to dream of kitting out my Sportwagon's wideblock with the whole catalog! Edit: Also, lol, the stock intake is cast iron. An aluminum one will save about 40lbs. Commodore_64 fucked around with this message at 06:12 on Aug 23, 2016 |
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Aug 23, 2016 06:10
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Commodore_64 posted:The picture is pretty potato, but Buick 350 manifolds have sort of rectangular looking runners, and the dizzy is on the driver's side sort of under the upper radiator hose. Check out T/A Performance. As far as I know the only Buick 350 house around. I used to dream of kitting out my Sportwagon's wideblock with the whole catalog! Definitely has oddball rectangular headers - that was one of the things I noticed. It's hard to tell exactly what was up with this car as my grandpa built it over a decade and, well, his memory isn't what it once was. The engine is mated to a 3 speed auto, column shift, if that helps narrow things down. Raluek posted:Edelbrock Performer RPM air-gap square-bore intake manifold for whatever motor it ends up being, and a Holley-style 650dp (I think quickfuel is the best bang for buck at the moment). Bam. someone correct me if there's a better go-to combo From memory, I'd say this is a BOP engine, but I'll try and get some family to grab some pictures of the stuff. Appreciate the folks willing to spend time to drop by, but don't want to bother my family, they've got enough on their minds right now
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Aug 23, 2016 06:25
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Commodore_64 posted:The picture is pretty potato, but Buick 350 manifolds have sort of rectangular looking runners, and the dizzy is on the driver's side sort of under the upper radiator hose. Check out T/A Performance. As far as I know the only Buick 350 house around. I used to dream of kitting out my Sportwagon's wideblock with the whole catalog! BOP engineering has some stuff too iirc. I've had to use them to find parts for some customers with old pre war stuff. Can't speak to how good it is since they were cheapasses, but the dude on the phone seemed to know his poo poo.
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Aug 23, 2016 11:03
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Ok, so I've determined the car will (barely) fit in my garage. So that answers that question. I'll probably try and do some work on it when I'm back up there in late september, confirm block numbers, inspect it, and try and take care of some basics. Once that's done, I'll start figuring out the longer term plan. I'm also gonna start research for parts and stuff. Out of dumb curiosity, what would be a cheap and easy way to get a manual transmission, and about five hunnert horsepowa in there? Gotta stay V8, would prefer NA, reliable and usable as a daily driver, no need to hold up to drag racing or anything like that, I just like fast things.
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Aug 24, 2016 06:40
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Cheap and fav hunnert do not go together, you'll be spending money not only on motor but brakes to slow that pig down it's heavy 
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Aug 24, 2016 07:05
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Stick an LS3 / L98 in it. 500 hp? Pfffffft, come on, they almost do 450 stock and can reach FAV HUNNNED with bolt ons and a tune.
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Aug 24, 2016 07:14
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CAT INTERCEPTOR posted:Stick an LS3 / L98 in it. 500 hp? Pfffffft, come on, they almost do 450 stock and can reach FAV HUNNNED with bolt ons and a tune. Probably cheaper to find an L92. But yeah, gen4 6.2 with a cam, springs, and tune should do 500 at the crank I think. Maybe a cheaper iron block motor plus a supercharger? I'm not sure which would come out cheaper. You're not gonna be able to build a classic SBC (let alone a BPO) to 500HP without a lot more work. Although, how long do you need to last? Big turbos are cheaper than a new motor. E: Oh, you said you wanted daily driver duty. I'd go N/A 6.2 of some variety, yeah. I guess there's a reason it's the default answer to "what should I put in my ____?"
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Aug 24, 2016 07:42
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leica posted:Cheap and fav hunnert do not go together, you'll be spending money not only on motor but brakes to slow that pig down it's heavy Well, it's has front disks already, although I don't know what size they are. Also cheap is, I suppose, relative. I'm assuming 2-4k for suspension, 1-2k in wheels, and eventually 4-8k in engine/transmission swap? Before this whole project came along, the next project for me was going to be a Kawasaki H2, which would probably run me 15k for the bike plus another 5k in parts/tune/etc, so I figure anything under that is fine. CAT INTERCEPTOR posted:Stick an LS3 / L98 in it. 500 hp? Pfffffft, come on, they almost do 450 stock and can reach FAV HUNNNED with bolt ons and a tune. I'd probably be happy with anything putting out ~400, honestly - the bikes will always be faster with anything I'd be driving regularly. I'd also very much like to row my own gears, I'd imagine a 3 speed automatic is going to be pretty loving hilarious on the freeway. If I wanted to get really stupid I'd figure out how to slam a E39 BMW M5 engine in it just because, you know, gently caress it. Make everyone mad! Raluek posted:Probably cheaper to find an L92. But yeah, gen4 6.2 with a cam, springs, and tune should do 500 at the crank I think. Maybe a cheaper iron block motor plus a supercharger? I'm not sure which would come out cheaper. Huh so I guess it's as simple as: http://www.brphotrods.com/products/68-72%20A%20body%20products/index.html And whatever LS engine/transmission I feel like buying?
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Aug 24, 2016 08:01
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Annnnnd of course there's a bolt on kit for a LS motor. Not surprised at all on that one. Project basically writes it's own script - LS3, bolt ons, bolt it in with a T56. 10K for the lot? I cant see it being much more. And given it's basically a kit, I dont see it being a real problem to do.
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Aug 24, 2016 08:10
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CAT INTERCEPTOR posted:Annnnnd of course there's a bolt on kit for a LS motor. Not surprised at all on that one. Yeah that seems reasonable enough. Some reading on LS1tech and there's a guy who's done basically exactly this thing: http://ls1tech.com/forums/conversions-hybrids/931972-68-lemans-ls1-t56-swap.html Also this page looks useful, dumping it here to save it http://www.frankspontiacparts.com/usedparts/gtoparts.htm
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Aug 24, 2016 08:19
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Z3n posted:Huh so I guess it's as simple as: Edelbrock makes a set of headers and mounts, too. That looks like a more complete kit, though. I'm sure it'll depend what motor you've got there and what mounts are on the crossmember, but anything's changable. If you just want 400HP, you can probably get that out of whatever motor you've got. If it's a SBC, you might just need heads (junkyard Vortecs machined to take more lift) and a valvetrain. Not sure what's what with the BPO, but I bet someone makes a trick set of heads for 'em. The LS would be the way to go, though, if you don't care about originality and want the most bang for your buck (if you'd have to rebuild the motor you've got anyway, I dunno what condition it's in). For trans, you're kind of stuck with the T-56, which is like $1500. Maybe more now, I haven't really kept track of prices since buying mine for around that much several years ago. There aren't any good 5-speeds, really, unless you want to go pull a NV truck trans. I guess that's a thing people do? If you need more brakes, consider: http://www.kore3.com/proddetail.php?prod=10103-01 People make coilover suspensions and stuff, I think Hotchkiss is the go-to. A cheaper alternative would be to get tubular control arms with extended balljoints, which will fix some geometry issues these have from the factory. Dunno how far you want to take it. If you still have rear drums, the rear brakes from a late 4th gen F-body should bolt up and are the same as the C5 rear brakes. Can you tell I've done a little bit of research? I have a Chevelle that I've had similar plans for. Looks like you'll beat me to it, though!
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Aug 24, 2016 08:20
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What's really nice about a modern LSx swap is it's just stupid reliable. It's a modern fuel injected engine with a massive aftermarket following, and they're overbuilt enough that they easily go 300k+ miles with barely anything resembling maintenance. The ECUs are nearly open source at this point, they've been hacked, cracked, and diced 7 ways from Sunday.
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Aug 24, 2016 08:28
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Raluek posted:Edelbrock makes a set of headers and mounts, too. That looks like a more complete kit, though. I'm sure it'll depend what motor you've got there and what mounts are on the crossmember, but anything's changable. This is all fantastic information, thank you! some texas redneck posted:What's really nice about a modern LSx swap is it's just stupid reliable. It's a modern fuel injected engine with a massive aftermarket following, and they're overbuilt enough that they easily go 300k+ miles with barely anything resembling maintenance. The ECUs are nearly open source at this point, they've been hacked, cracked, and diced 7 ways from Sunday. And this is actually the real reason that I'd like to do the LSx swap. I want to drive this car, I want to be able to think of my grandpa as I do so, and one day, when it's no longer realistic for me to drive it, I'd like to gift it to the next person in the family. I like my builds to be reliable, fast, and fun, and it seems like that would easily hit all 3. It's "only" 3600 pounds, which actually isn't all that much more than a modern Corvette or the like. Oh, and of course, I'd be occasionally using it as a tow vehicle to get bikes to a trackday - it is replacing a truck, after all. Z3n fucked around with this message at 08:41 on Aug 24, 2016 |
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Aug 24, 2016 08:34
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some texas redneck posted:What's really nice about a modern LSx swap is it's just stupid reliable. It's a modern fuel injected engine with a massive aftermarket following, and they're overbuilt enough that they easily go 300k+ miles with barely anything resembling maintenance. The ECUs are nearly open source at this point, they've been hacked, cracked, and diced 7 ways from Sunday. Yeah the PCMs are pretty much cheaper and more open source than megasquirt now haha. why not get a truck flavor 5.3 and stick a turbo on it. Seems to be the most common flavor. 400hp is easy to obtain. 500hp is a almost as easy. a lovely cargo van 5.3 throws ~335 with no work at all.
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Aug 24, 2016 16:16
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Turbos are for bikes, silly! (Mostly just not interested in the complexity, honestly)
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Aug 24, 2016 16:26
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some texas redneck posted:What's really nice about a modern LSx swap is it's just stupid reliable. It's a modern fuel injected engine with a massive aftermarket following, and they're overbuilt enough that they easily go 300k+ miles with barely anything resembling maintenance. The ECUs are nearly open source at this point, they've been hacked, cracked, and diced 7 ways from Sunday. On top of all that if you want to avoid the electronics you can easy take it off and bolt on what ever carb setup you want. MSD makes a ignition box to run ignition without the ecu. Which definitely makes setting up a LS motor in a older car much easier and cleaner.
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Aug 24, 2016 16:35
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Valt posted:On top of all that if you want to avoid the electronics you can easy take it off and bolt on what ever carb setup you want. MSD makes a ignition box to run ignition without the ecu. Which definitely makes setting up a LS motor in a older car much easier and cleaner. It's good to know that's an option - I don't mind working on electronics, though, and there's something hilarious about the idea of having a massive land boat with the displacement on demand system intact. It'll probably come down to whatever engine I can get the best deal on, though.
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Aug 24, 2016 17:29
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I'm disappointed I won't get to see your H2 project, but this is really cool too and I'll be eagerly watching this thread. Best of wishes to your gramps.
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Aug 24, 2016 18:14
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I have more Pontiacs then i have the sense to stop bringing them home. a few notes Pontiac only really made one block everything from 326-455 is the same "size" they didn't have a big block or a small block lemans gto and tempest are all the same car with different trim. they share a lot with olds and buick. you can find universal trannies that will fit all 3 motors and some of the front end parts are interchangeable (BOP turbo 350) disc brake wise as long as it didn't come form a 68 car ( awful 2 part rotors and dual piston calipers) it should be fine. its a good chance it came from the factory with front disc in 72 if you want to stick with the motor thats in it post the casting numbers and i can look in my books to get an idea of what it is. all 400/455 motors have it stamped on the block and its very obvious(side of the block in between freeze plus and oil pan in big numbers)
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Aug 24, 2016 18:21
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Just wanted to step in to say that I've dealt with both Kore3 and BRP Hotrods and both companies were pleasures to deal with. Responsive to questions and solid products. The Kore3 guys are super knowledgeable about brake swaps if you have any questions.
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Aug 24, 2016 18:21
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Valt posted:On top of all that if you want to avoid the electronics you can easy take it off and bolt on what ever carb setup you want. MSD makes a ignition box to run ignition without the ecu. Which definitely makes setting up a LS motor in a older car much easier and cleaner. You can, but there's no reason that you should. The LS EFI system is way better than the junk it replaced, and a nice cleanly routed harness is less obtrusive than a carburetor IMO. Probably better hood clearance, too.
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Aug 24, 2016 18:23
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72 LeMans - the LS swap was easier then finding a transdapter
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Aug 24, 2016 19:34
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iamthehans posted:I have more Pontiacs then i have the sense to stop bringing them home. Thanks for all this - very useful as well. I knew I'd be able to count on you guys to accelerate the hell out of my learning curve on swapping from bikes to cars Boaz MacPhereson posted:Just wanted to step in to say that I've dealt with both Kore3 and BRP Hotrods and both companies were pleasures to deal with. Responsive to questions and solid products. The Kore3 guys are super knowledgeable about brake swaps if you have any questions. Thanks - will definitey lean on these resources once I've got things to that point Elephanthead posted:72 LeMans - the LS swap was easier then finding a transdapter It's sort of amazing how true this is.
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Aug 24, 2016 20:50
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Z3n posted:Thanks for all this - very useful as well. I knew I'd be able to count on you guys to accelerate the hell out of my learning curve on swapping from bikes to cars I'm on the other side of the country but on the off chance you get stuck finding parts for the car let me know i horde pontiac parts. I'm more of a 60's guy but I do have 70's front ends and some odd's and ends
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Aug 24, 2016 21:31
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