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EccoRaven
Aug 15, 2004

there is only one hell:
the one we live in now


TMMadman posted:

Also, to the bolded part here is the summary of your case:


The very first point of your summary is that I've repeatedly said that it's very clear what you're saying.

and I have already conceded that that point was incorrect, that is it was based on a mistaken remembrance of what you actually said, but again it is not the thrust of my case against you. my point is you have continually chosen to attack the style of my posts in lieu of their content which as I have already said at length is scummy.

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TMMadman
Sep 9, 2003

He will be injured, but in the World Series he will be raised from the DL. And the Indians were filled with grief.



EccoRaven posted:

if people skip over my posts because they do not want to read posts then that is on them, it is not my job to spoonfeed the lazy and intellectual disinterested except insofar as I wish people to read my cases and to vote with them, but I have made the judgment that players who are unwilling to read my very clear posts simply because they are longer and explain my thoughts more fully are unlikely to be interested in playing mafia at all and so they are not the audience to whom I am trying to appeal but rather to those who wish to actually win the game by hunting for mafia and removing them from the game that is to say the town!

furthermore if players believe I am scum simply for posting in this fashion then they are making an unreasonable stance, which again is my point against you, TMMadman, known scum!

You know, except for the fact that you've repeatedly told me in other places that it's my job to be persuasive and get people to agree with my cases. So if people are skipping over your posts, how exactly can you be persuasive enough to get people to agree with your cases?

TMMadman
Sep 9, 2003

He will be injured, but in the World Series he will be raised from the DL. And the Indians were filled with grief.



EccoRaven posted:

and I have already conceded that that point was incorrect, that is it was based on a mistaken remembrance of what you actually said, but again it is not the thrust of my case against you. my point is you have continually chosen to attack the style of my posts in lieu of their content which as I have already said at length is scummy.

But I've been responding to each and every point you've made so far. So do you want to keep banging your head against this wall?

EccoRaven
Aug 15, 2004

there is only one hell:
the one we live in now


TMMadman posted:

You know, except for the fact that you've repeatedly told me in other places that it's my job to be persuasive and get people to agree with my cases. So if people are skipping over your posts, how exactly can you be persuasive enough to get people to agree with your cases?

if my posts are being universally ignored because they are too long and they explain things more fully than every other player in this game believes them to deserve then perhaps I may choose to post in a more abbreviated fashion, that is in a way that is more conducive to getting a larger audience, however not only is that not happening this game as evidenced by you and others reading and responding to the content of my posts as well as others (who are not you again as I incorrectly stated earlier) saying that my posts are clear even if they have not yet engaged in the conversations at length, but posting in this manner would only be scummy if the content of my posts were in and of themselves scummy, because then my posting could be seen as a way to mask my fake opinions and beliefs due to how obfuscated and unclear they were and thus difficult to read, however I do not believe one can reasonably say my content is scummy because it should be clear by now that even if I am mistaken about certain secondary factual elements in the game my posting is clearly intended to build a case on you because I clearly suspect that I have found scum this game i.e. you, even if one believes I am mistaken in thinking so.

EccoRaven
Aug 15, 2004

there is only one hell:
the one we live in now


TMMadman posted:

But I've been responding to each and every point you've made so far. So do you want to keep banging your head against this wall?

your responses have been to false interpretations of my posts. while I was mistaken about a fact that was secondary to my main argument, your mistakes have been to characterize my points against you incorrectly and then attack those incorrect characterizations.

imgay
May 12, 2014

dog


u guys prob both scum for spending all this time on a dumb conversation

EccoRaven
Aug 15, 2004

there is only one hell:
the one we live in now


imgay posted:

u guys prob both scum for spending all this time on a dumb conversation
case in point:

imgay posted:

keepin it 100, im not gonna read any of the eco blocks

EccoRaven posted:

I have made the judgment that players who are unwilling to read my very clear posts simply because they are longer and explain my thoughts more fully are unlikely to be interested in playing mafia at all and so they are not the audience to whom I am trying to appeal

Juchero
Feb 15, 2008


Wedge Regret

I've seen the "these two are town fighting" but never "these two are scum fighting each other"

Mostly because it doesn't make any sense!

imgay
May 12, 2014

dog


EccoRaven posted:

case in point:

Chic Trombone
Jul 25, 2010



I mean TMM has leveraged him fighting other members of his scum team into being pretty much accepted as confirmed town after his buddy's flip before, notably in the last soldier game Ecco ran

that's not the vibe i'm getting from this situation though, and probably not what imgay was going for

TMMadman
Sep 9, 2003

He will be injured, but in the World Series he will be raised from the DL. And the Indians were filled with grief.



At this point, Ecco has talked more about her style than me. I've addressed every single one of her points in the summary of her case, but she continues to say that all I'm doing is attacking her style of posting.

So I'm pretty much done engaging with her right now. She's dead wrong about me, but just wants to tunnel in on it.

TMMadman
Sep 9, 2003

He will be injured, but in the World Series he will be raised from the DL. And the Indians were filled with grief.



Also, I can't honestly tell if Ecco is scum or town right now. I do know she likes to push me when she's scum, but I just can't tell if that's what is happening here.

King Burgundy
Sep 17, 2003

I am the Burgundy King,
I can do anything!

Absurd Revolver posted:

I've seen the "these two are town fighting" but never "these two are scum fighting each other"

Mostly because it doesn't make any sense!

TMM and Kash fought each other for the whole last soldiers game. As scum.

Bernstrike
Oct 30, 2008

Bern To Run


mwahaha it is I, Slavojstrike

So it is clear where big WIFOM stands. iajanus can easily forget about hundreds of thousands of joke votes in Arrentia assembling cases in slave conditions; he made his big gesture of solidarity with the lurkers, demanding the abolition of omgus… As is often the case, big WIFOM stands proudly united with politically correct theory.

So what is “jokevoting”? It occurs when an individual experiences discord between his/her biological alignment (and the corresponding role, scum or town, assigned to him/her by mods at setup) and his/her subjective identity. As such, it does not concern only “town who feel and act like scum” and vice versa but a complex structure of additional “3P” positions which are outside the very binary opposition of scum and town: SK, survivor, commuter, JOAT, up to unaligned. The vision of social relations that sustains 3Ps is the so-called post roles: a social, political and cultural movement whose adherents advocate a voluntary abolition of alignment, rendered possible by recent scientific progress in biotechnology and votefinder technologies. Their proposal not only concerns scientific possibility, but is also ethically grounded. The premise of 3Pism is that the social, emotional and cognitive consequences of fixed roles are an obstacle to full human emancipation. A society in which lynches through voting eliminated (or in which other versions will be possible: a scum can also “doctor” a town, etc.) will open unheard-of new possibilities of freedom, social and emotional experimenting. It will eliminate the crucial distinction that sustains all subsequent social hierarchies and exploitations.

flerp
Feb 25, 2014

THUNDERDOME LOSER 2019


imgay posted:

keepin it 100, im not gonna read any of the eco blocks

same

flerp
Feb 25, 2014

THUNDERDOME LOSER 2019


for twelve years you have been asking "Who is John Galt?" this is John galt speaking.

Bernstrike
Oct 30, 2008

Bern To Run


flerp posted:

for twelve years you have been asking "Who is John Galt?" this is John galt speaking.

hi john
I'm birdstrike

flerp
Feb 25, 2014

THUNDERDOME LOSER 2019


Birdstrike posted:

hi john
I'm birdstrike

I am the man who loves his life. I am the man who does not sacrifice his love or his values. I am the man who has deprived you of victims and thus has destroyed your world, and if you wish to know why you are perishing-you who dread knowledge-I am the man who will now tell you

Tommunist
Dec 11, 2013



i am the man who knocks

busb
Mar 19, 2009

Thorgie

i think i wanna kill whoever i said i wanted to yesterday but i forget now. somebody pleasse look at my post history and remind me tia

Juchero
Feb 15, 2008


Wedge Regret

Tommunist posted:

i am the man who knocks

this guy knocks

Asiina
Apr 26, 2011

No going back


Grimey Drawer

I 100% agree with Madman about Ecco. Her PR is absolutely anti-town and it's ridiculous to argue otherwise. I also disagree with her characterization of MMT's vote too. Also also Madman wasn't the only person to announce that he was going to be away or had been away and busy, so why is he the only person she calls out?

Also I don't believe Ecco really believes this:

EccoRaven posted:

if people skip over my posts because they do not want to read posts then that is on them, it is not my job to spoonfeed the lazy and intellectual disinterested except insofar as I wish people to read my cases and to vote with them, but I have made the judgment that players who are unwilling to read my very clear posts simply because they are longer and explain my thoughts more fully are unlikely to be interested in playing mafia at all and so they are not the audience to whom I am trying to appeal but rather to those who wish to actually win the game by hunting for mafia and removing them from the game that is to say the town!

furthermore if players believe I am scum simply for posting in this fashion then they are making an unreasonable stance, which again is my point against you, TMMadman, known scum!

Being able to make a compelling argument that people will actually read is absolutely part of the game and there is no way that you don't think that intentionally making your posts a bigger pain in the rear end to read is alignment neutral.

TMMadman
Sep 9, 2003

He will be injured, but in the World Series he will be raised from the DL. And the Indians were filled with grief.



Asiina, do I have to be suspicious of you for agreeing with me now?

Retro Futurist
Aug 8, 2007

Yesterday's Tomorrow,
Today!


Asiina posted:

Also I don't believe Ecco really believes this:


Being able to make a compelling argument that people will actually read is absolutely part of the game and there is no way that you don't think that intentionally making your posts a bigger pain in the rear end to read is alignment neutral.

Oh yeah, Ecco would never be arrogant and ivory tower

EccoRaven
Aug 15, 2004

there is only one hell:
the one we live in now


Asiina posted:

I also disagree with her characterization of MMT's vote too.
I, mocco ravo, am very tired of repeating myself, that is to say I am questioning the efficacy of continuing to defend baseless points against me, that is to say here:

EccoRaven posted:

repeat: the substance of MMT's vote was responding to TMM asking for the jokevote phase in this game to be long and robust. it was presented as a joke due to the presence of emoticons, but the underlying substance upon which she voted was legitimate because wanting a robust jokevote phase is inherently scummy, and so I asked her if it was a joke or if it was serious.

that is irrelevant to my point against TMM regarding that vote, because TMM presented MMT's vote as "she voted for me because I said there were no jokevotes" when she did nothing of the sort and that can be clearly seen from placing her vote after quoting TMM saying that he wanted a more robust jokevote phase, which again is scummy.

because TMM manufactured the reason why MMT voted for him, it read to me that he was faking content this game, which has been the thrust of my case against him this whole time!
==

Asiina posted:

Also also Madman wasn't the only person to announce that he was going to be away or had been away and busy, so why is he the only person she calls out?

the way TMM did it was to me scummy, that is it was awkward and unnecessary, especially when compared to others like MMT, who said she'd be gone for the weekend as an excuse for not posting for the entire weekend, compared to TMM who said it as an excuse for only a few hours, which is why it was and is to me scummy for him to have done that, because a few hours is much less time than a few days and nobody would even notice if he was gone for a few hours but someone may notice if a player was gone for a few days.

combined with the rest of my points it led me to believe that TMM is not aligned with the town, that the chances are more likely that he is aligned with the scum, that is he wins when we all lose and we win when he loses and so that has been the thrust of my posting this day so far!

Asiina posted:

Also I don't believe Ecco really believes this:
Being able to make a compelling argument that people will actually read is absolutely part of the game and there is no way that you don't think that intentionally making your posts a bigger pain in the rear end to read is alignment neutral.

could you explain why making posts longer makes them more likely to be posts made by scum and therefore my posting is more akin to a scum's posts and therefore I am likely scum as well? because it seems like to me from my perspective (which is the only perspective I can ever truly hold but I hope by this post I can convince you that my perspective is a reasonable one) if someone were scum they would want to avoid attention if at all possible and posting in this fashion is so different from the ordinary forms of posting that it stands out, that is it would encourage people to vote for me solely because they dislike the way I post (as has already happened in this game in which we are playing) which is not particularly helpful to town OR scum (which is thus alignment neutral).

Asiina
Apr 26, 2011

No going back


Grimey Drawer

TMMadman posted:

Asiina, do I have to be suspicious of you for agreeing with me now?

No it's only when KB and I agree with each other that he's scum. We good.


Retro Futurist posted:

Oh yeah, Ecco would never be arrogant and ivory tower

There's being arrogant and there's saying that it doesn't matter if people can understand your posts. I cannot recall a specific post, but I feel like this is not something Ecco out of this game would agree with.


EccoRaven posted:

could you explain why making posts longer makes them more likely to be posts made by scum and therefore my posting is more akin to a scum's posts and therefore I am likely scum as well? because it seems like to me from my perspective (which is the only perspective I can ever truly hold but I hope by this post I can convince you that my perspective is a reasonable one) if someone were scum they would want to avoid attention if at all possible and posting in this fashion is so different from the ordinary forms of posting that it stands out, that is it would encourage people to vote for me solely because they dislike the way I post (as has already happened in this game in which we are playing) which is not particularly helpful to town OR scum (which is thus alignment neutral).

C'mon, this is a weak argument. You're essentially saying if you were scum you'd be quiet and trying to fit in without drawing attention to yourself, which I do not believe for a second, especially from you.

EccoRaven
Aug 15, 2004

there is only one hell:
the one we live in now


Asiina posted:

C'mon, this is a weak argument. You're essentially saying if you were scum you'd be quiet and trying to fit in without drawing attention to yourself, which I do not believe for a second, especially from you.

I am saying that if I were scum I would not be posting in this way, that is I would be posting in a more typical ecco style, that is I would be posting a lot but with more easily-digestible (but less clear and more prone to misinterpretation) content, because posting this way would be and is drawing a lot of negative attention onto me very quickly and very early on.

the only way to shrug that attention would be to post as townie as possible and I as town would be able to do so fairly competently since I would be town, but as scum it would be very difficult, and though I, Mocco Ravo!!, am very good at faking content as scum I do not think I could do it so consistently with such scrutiny as I would be and am receiving, and thus to me it is actually a sign that I am likely town that I am posting this way, because if I were scum I would be unnecessarily handicapping my play this game in a way that would be more likely to result in me dying.

but I could believe that players are so wowed by my talents at faking content as scum that they would believe that I could as scum just as effectively fake content under these pressing circumstances (which again are entirely self-induced because it is a foreseeable and expected reaction to the style of my posting), and if I could produce content as scum or town equally by posting in this way then it would be alignment neutral in effect.



an example is with Birdstrike's post here:

Birdstrike posted:

mwahaha it is I, Slavojstrike

So it is clear where big WIFOM stands. iajanus can easily forget about hundreds of thousands of joke votes in Arrentia assembling cases in slave conditions; he made his big gesture of solidarity with the lurkers, demanding the abolition of omgus… As is often the case, big WIFOM stands proudly united with politically correct theory.

So what is “jokevoting”? It occurs when an individual experiences discord between his/her biological alignment (and the corresponding role, scum or town, assigned to him/her by mods at setup) and his/her subjective identity. As such, it does not concern only “town who feel and act like scum” and vice versa but a complex structure of additional “3P” positions which are outside the very binary opposition of scum and town: SK, survivor, commuter, JOAT, up to unaligned. The vision of social relations that sustains 3Ps is the so-called post roles: a social, political and cultural movement whose adherents advocate a voluntary abolition of alignment, rendered possible by recent scientific progress in biotechnology and votefinder technologies. Their proposal not only concerns scientific possibility, but is also ethically grounded. The premise of 3Pism is that the social, emotional and cognitive consequences of fixed roles are an obstacle to full human emancipation. A society in which lynches through voting eliminated (or in which other versions will be possible: a scum can also “doctor” a town, etc.) will open unheard-of new possibilities of freedom, social and emotional experimenting. It will eliminate the crucial distinction that sustains all subsequent social hierarchies and exploitations.

this post is nonsense, that is, it is a post that is made to mock my style, but it does not effectively mock the style of my posts, because it is simply replacing words in a pre-written document with mafia terms, and the resulting text ultimately says nothing. my posts say a lot and have content within them. had I been posting like Birdstrike did in this post all game, that would be scummy, for it would be me posting gibberish and expecting people to skip over it, which is something scum would do.



I hope I have made my situation clear to you in this post.

busb
Mar 19, 2009

Thorgie

i will kill infinitum

TMMadman
Sep 9, 2003

He will be injured, but in the World Series he will be raised from the DL. And the Indians were filled with grief.



I want to ignore Eccos post, but I'm still going to say that she's engaging in a self-meta defense.

The last time I saw her do that is when she killed her scum teammate on N1 and came out on D2 and essentially said "I'm a vig and I'd never bus as scum"

Max
Nov 30, 2002



My problem is that Ecco literally warned me and everyone in the dead doc for their last game that they were going to do this. The fact that they are doing it in the first place is a null tell to me. It was a funny joke that has long outstayed its welcome, and I agree with Asiina, Ecco would know that making giant walls of repeating info is going to make everyone's eyes glaze over, which has been happening to me tonight.

Max
Nov 30, 2002



Also, hi.

Max
Nov 30, 2002



That said, and I'm probably ruining the ecco gambit here, keeping up with that style of posting well past the point of reason is the perfect honey trap to get scum to latch on to what looks like an easy vote.

Max
Nov 30, 2002



And I totally buy that town Ecco would do that.

EccoRaven
Aug 15, 2004

there is only one hell:
the one we live in now


TMMadman posted:

I want to ignore Eccos post, but I'm still going to say that she's engaging in a self-meta defense.

EccoRaven posted:

is not particularly helpful to town OR scum (which is thus alignment neutral).

EccoRaven posted:

to me it is actually a sign that I am likely town that I am posting this way [...] but I could believe that players are so wowed by my talents at faking content as scum [...] it would be alignment neutral in effect.

mwahaha

Max
Nov 30, 2002




gently caress, see, I didn't even see those posts because I just stop after the first sentence most of the time.

Max
Nov 30, 2002



##unvote

TMMadman
Sep 9, 2003

He will be injured, but in the World Series he will be raised from the DL. And the Indians were filled with grief.




It's still a self meta defense, regardless of you saying it's alignment neutral.

tithin
Nov 14, 2003

Ralsei, The Lonely Prince, is now your ally.

The power of fluffy boys shines within you.


I might start posting tl;drs of Eccos posts

Juchero
Feb 15, 2008


Wedge Regret

It's my belief that scum wouldn't attract this much attention for no reason, and that this kind of aggravating(to others, i love it) PR is a dumb town move at it's finest.

I am sad to say that blue sorcerers have inflicted a terrible migraine upon me, and that I will be checking out early tonight. Good luck, my brave soldiers.

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TMMadman
Sep 9, 2003

He will be injured, but in the World Series he will be raised from the DL. And the Indians were filled with grief.



Absurd Revolver posted:

It's my belief that scum wouldn't attract this much attention for no reason, and that this kind of aggravating(to others, i love it) PR is a dumb town move at it's finest.

I am sad to say that blue sorcerers have inflicted a terrible migraine upon me, and that I will be checking out early tonight. Good luck, my brave soldiers.

I can understand that belief, but that's exactly what people said about me and Kash fighting hardcore during Ecco's soldier game.

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