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BlazeEmblem posted:It's also mentioned in the epic of Gilgamesh as part of the backstory. So yeah, the concept is pretty old. Can't help but love the epic of Gilgamesh: it's literally a bunch of made-up bullshit to justify the reign of a highly-competent tyrant (in the original sense of the word), who claimed to be his descendant. The real life version spent practically his whole life trying to convince his city to go to war, being vetoed time and again by the council of elders who could only be overruled by some city elites and the votes of the young men who formed the opposite bloc to that of the elders. The times Gil *did* manage to get his war(s) declared resulted in a loss every drat time, as the rest of the population either lost interest or refused to take any major risks. The one time real-life Gilgamesh actually managed to claim a victory was from an apparent surrender by a rich trading city (in truth, Gil's army just got paid off and went home against Gil's wishes), which we know is a lie because the king of the city continued being a popular and respected king for a number of years after he "begged desperately for his life at Gil's feet", eventually dying of natural causes and passing on the crown to his son, who lost it to said tyrant who conquered not only that city, but ALL the cities in the region, including the one "ruled" by a then-deceased Gilgamesh! After learning all that, it's hard not to laugh at the gaudy bastard from the Fate/Stay series.
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Mar 15, 2017 03:44
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The law ending is kind of creepy thinking on the wider scale of things and all. But... I just have a hard time taking it seriously at all. The ending of the game feels really abrupt just because there really isn't that much story development time. I appreciate that things probably take a lot longer if you're actually playing through, but presented as pure story, there's just... nothing much there. It's incredibly bare-bones, and I didn't like either of the two people trying to make arguments here. When the choice is 'herp' and 'derp'... .eh gently caress it.
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Mar 15, 2017 03:44
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Keldulas posted:It's incredibly bare-bones, and I didn't like either of the two people trying to make arguments here. When the choice is 'herp' and 'derp'... .eh gently caress it. Sadly, when the issue is "[powers outside of your control] have decided you are a blight on the planet and must be wiped from existence", your options are to resist, die, or conform. "herp" and "derp" are two shades of conformity, in this case - conformity to religion and conformity to feral beasts.
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Mar 15, 2017 04:52
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KataraniSword posted:Sadly, when the issue is "[powers outside of your control] have decided you are a blight on the planet and must be wiped from existence", your options are to resist, die, or conform. Actually, my problem is that for being something that's supposed to be about the fate of the world, I feel like the way to the ending is incredibly underdeveloped. People have to change too suddenly to fit what is needed for whatever beat in the plot. I think a big contributing problem to this is that Jack's loving stupid Squad ate way too much screen time and were horrifically badly written.
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Mar 15, 2017 06:41
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I don't think you're supposed to take Zelenin and Jimenez seriously as the advocates for the Law and Chaos factions. It's the other way around: they've been groomed by supernatural forces on each side. Before she turns into an angel or whatever, Zelenin's political philosophy is "Humans getting killed is bad." She doesn't like demons because demons murdered all her colleagues. She likes angels because they consistently help out the player faction, and don't seem enthused about people dying either. Eventually, she winds up sublimating her will to that of God in order to save a bunch of murderers. Once she does that, though, her will is basically gone, right? I don't think "tricked" is the right word here, but she definitely winds up radicalized. It's the same thing with Jimenez, except nobody really tries to corrupt or mentor him. He's a loose cannon, he doesn't think things through, but he seems basically loyal to the cause of humanity, and puts his own life at risk for that cause and for his friends. It's just that his friends include both humans and demons. He only goes and hangs out with demons because after he fuses with Bugaboo, everybody on the Red Sprite is uncomfortable around him. He winds up with the politics of a supervillain, but that's just because the evil Chaos folks are the only people who will hang out with him without muttering behind his back. I think that's what the plot is going for, anyway. I agree it isn't developed enough to really be compelling, but the game's a dungeon crawler at heart, it doesn't really need a complex story.
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Mar 15, 2017 06:51
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Honestly I think that even beyond the muttering behind his back fusing with Bugaboo changed his personality to be more amicable to the Chaos side; he does mention heightened bloodlust and the like in passing if I'm remembering correctly. In either case I don't think that either one of them would have gone against the mission had their respective transformations not happened. Unfortunately it's not really conveyed well, which makes it go from a potentially interesting plot point to, well... herp vs. derp. The writing in this game is this weird mix of interesting ideas and bad execution. Kind of like the rest of it. 
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Mar 15, 2017 06:59
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Honestly if they had done more with that - that it's grooming/driven right into the arms of the enemy as nrook described it, I think the majority of my complaints about the plot would be resolved. The other complaint is minimize or spread out the Jack Squad Subplot, and introducing Ubergesalt Gore earlier. Like lot of people on the Red Sprite, and a few readers seem to think Jimenez fused for power, but I always felt the scene is to be read as him going for the desperate chance for Bugaboo to survive - he's shown to treat the oddball demon like a little brother almost.
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Mar 15, 2017 07:04
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 Alright, we're gonna load up this bad boy and see what New Game+ gives us. Not much, but most of it is special, that's for sure.  ...Could always just skip through cutscenes by holding down  Except for this one tiny bit near the beginning. Our previously entered name is here by default, rather than being left blank. Hitonari's story is done and over though...  Daredevil extraordinaire Lance Murdock is on the job! Lance here is one of the names used in the screenshots in the US manual so it's arguably more canon as far we should care than Some Guy McHero Man. yes its a simpsons reference  Lance is a bit of a naughty boy though, and he doesn't participate in Handshake Simulator 2009. Only one hand will be shook during the course of this run!  Lance is also a very, very lazy man. He just mashes the A button here and picks the top option for the Demonica Q&A.  He ends up getting the 2nd/3rd best Demonica (depending on how much Forma grind you want to deal with). This gives more varied but still semi-focussed growth rates than the Luck Demonica did: St: 24% Ma: 18% Vi: 19% Ag: 20% Lu: 19%  Initial stats. I don't think I showed this for the Luck suit but it's not really a big deal.  Lance is also a bit of a Cheater since he stole and smuggled in all the endgame ludicrous gear. But it's still not enough!  Lance doesn't deal with Unknowns (outside of scripted sequences) though. The Slimes in the first fight are already fully analyzed.  Lance's big weakness: he forgot to steal Hitonari's maps. Gotta remap everything when that comes up again.  Compendium is also exactly as it was left, very ho hum here. Should've maxed Seraph's analyze to half that cost really. Ah well, he'll make do with these three Horsemen.  HP/Energy Drain, by the way, if it deals a killing blow does 100% of the current HP for sensible reasons. Can't drain what doesn't exist after all. This is the easier way to know weird values like Jack's 2016 (the alternative is to just datamine).  Even though having Irving DOES let you buy stuff from the store, gotta get this first. The material creation thing isn't available until now.  This means we can buy some special new accessories!  ...Oh, I forgot one? That's unfortunate. Sorry God Ring, you're kinda shite anyway. Solomon Ring is the best accessory. Reflect Fire, Ice, Wind, Elec, immue to Expel and Curse? Yes, yes please. Pair this with the Absolute Vest and the only things that can hurt the MC are Physical and Almighty attacks. Ideally, you'd use a Phys immune armor instead (Mem Aleph doesn't have a Gun skill after all!) but that doesn't exist unfortunately. AC Horolite X x3, Vile Prehite x4 (Samael), Vile Bone x4 (Seth) and Clear Data required to unlock this beauty.  But the Solomon Ring isn't infallible. That's why the Gaia Ring exists. It's not AS good, but it reflects Phys and Gun. Why yes, I do want the MC to be a Doppelganger but even better. A very firm second place overall but better than the Solomon Ring in a few fights (coughgorecough). AC Horolite X x3, Reaper Tablet x4 (Mot), Enigma Tusk x4 (Kangiten) and Clear Data for this one. We'll unlock the God Ring later; it's not as good as either of these nor the Dragon/Supple Ring really.  New SubApps are available once we get to buy them as well. 7-Card Hand mostly fixes the SubApp system being inherently poo poo. It reduces you max capacity to 7 but changes the size of everything to 1. Everything. If it costs more than 1? Reduced to 1. If it costs 0? Increased to 1.  This is a special thing. That's all I have to say about that.  No random encounters. Do I need to say anything else?  This is also a special thing, but a better special thing.  7-Card Hand in action. The increase of 0 to 1 is the worst thing about this for sure.  New MegaTen is a joke SubApp, really.  When you install it, it just picks one of four messages.  Three of them are generic errors. No, this isn't Atlus suddenly deciding to softlock you or whatever if you're emulating.  But it also semi-rarer does this. That's it. That's all this does.  And the Frost Icon turns your map cursor into a Jack Frost head half the time! It's a normal cursor occasionally but when the green 3 square radar is visible, it switches. That's it for this intermission. Actual proper content coming up is in... Well, technically we CAN do a thing in Antlia now. Saving that for when we can finish it though. That means the next thing we're going to see is in, uh... Grus. Good thing getting there now takes about 4 hours if you go slow!
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Mar 20, 2017 01:59
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 The Land Where The Seed's Memories Lie Buried > The crewmen are examining the door.   But how do we open it? It doesn't look like our equipment will make a dent in this thing.Oh, right, I totally forgot.  Gotta grab this first, otherwise that guy won't let us open the door.  I just heard from an angel about some amazing treasure. It's just past here... I think it is, anyway. I'll let you have a share. Wanna see what's on the other side of this door?  Why don't you return here after we are finished...? Oh, you're here too? Sorry, forget what I said. We should focus on the mission. Well, maybe you can come back when you have some time....Augh, goddammit. I just wanna open the New Game+ door! Why does this require jumping through even more hoops? Gotta skip ahead to after Ryan et al have been sung at.  I just heard from an angel about this amazing treasure. Apparently you can reach it from this door, but it's not that easy. That's what this is. There's a strong demon who'll escort anyone out for the treasure to hell. So, Mr. Ace Demon-Killer, that's where you come in. Wanna explore this place with me? Yes. Though the path to the treasure is apparently a long one...Understatement. It might be tough, but I just know that treasure's worth it. Let's give it all we got! ...... Well that's weird...  Anyway, where were we? Gotta use Unlock E to open this door, since it's required for the scene in the first place. So, yeah, gotta do the sidequest for Ame-no-Uzume in Eridanus to get the Sound Jewel for Gate Search E. This lets you get the Copernicus for Unlock E. Before you can even accept the sidequest here. A Rotten Nation Okay, so the second half of Grus is a gigantic loving slog. It's not difficult, per se, it's just tedious and long.  There isn't much in the way of forma here; we've kind of seen everything there is in that regard though, so it doesn't matter.  We'll just see where this leads, shall we?  So, this part of Grus is in a way a gigantic empty area with fuckall in it of note.  But there's some stairs back up to B1F here so we'll see. I'm sure it's for a reas--  Oh, I see. It's a pithole trapmaze, huh? Explains why B2F is so gigantic and empty, I guess. this is gonna suck  There's several terminals dotted around anyway. And, yeah, uh, there's no new random demons in here. At all. Just gonna use Red Carpet to avoid dealing with that poo poo.  There's stairs over here as well, so this might be nicer as a starting point.  Ha, I wish. It lets you snag a Sacrifice and... that's it. Only other thing here is a pit drop back down.  ...Oh. Ohhh. It's... it's a teleport-maze but the wrong teleports might sometimes be pits??  Ha, no, there's no maze to be had here. Each teleport room does the usual thing of place to drop you (usually in the center this time!), a right teleport and the rest are wrong spots. They're all pits.  All of them. This is a linear path that makes you THINK it's a teleport maze but it punishes you with dropping you back down to B2F. Sometimes it lets you open doors that aren't actually even shortcuts.  But that was a hidden door that could only be opened from the side of these stairs. It HAS to be useful, right?!  Hahahaha, no. This is a small room with nothing in it (except some Miracle Cores). No hidden doors, no map tricks, nothing. That's definitely not ominous.  I'm honestly kind of trying to not just whine incessently about this area, but it's really tedious and poo poo.  It gets better though. See, B2F is broken into these giant segments that are kind of internal mini-checkpoints. They have hidden doors that let you get to B3F and amount to nothing.  Logically, then, they have hidden doors connecting the segments so you DO get shortcuts to make it more of an actual checkpoint?  Hahahaha, no. Look right here, that alcove on the left. The one above the original stairs. That LOOKS like the perfect spot for a shortcut back here, doesn't it?  Which is why it doesn't have one. There aren't any actual shortcuts back at any point in this section. None. At all.  Even when it really looks and feels like there should be. There aren't any. Why? Because gently caress you, that's why. It's not like getting back is difficult; there's no actual maze to deal with after all. It's just... long.  Oh and B3F is a one-way door maze, as you probably guessed. Added bonus: you can only start it from this one spot. At least initially.  Don't worry; I didn't skip over any treasure during the Infinite Walk of Bland. There's the one Sacrifice at the start and nothing until the Sacrifice now. That's definitely not ominous either.  This. This door right here. This is your only shortcut. Even that's being overly generous. It's the stairs leading down from the third giant open space. That IS the third of four, yes. This does technically have an actual use but it doesn't really matter.  Anyway, this staircase back up IS our way to progress, yes.  ...Y'know, I forgot. This area has four Gate Search D doors. Just because. These ones gate off treasure which is at least something. The other 2 gate off getting to finish off maps. And nothing else. Why yes I will complain about that again when we get it done. Because it's loving stupid.  Oh and there's poison tiles in this corner of B3F. Why? Why not. If it was sleep tiles it'd at least be maybe semi-dangerous.  Just to make the one-way door maze even dumber, it has phase shifters. Plural. One of them is redundant and stupid. This one is mandatory for getting to something special.  ...Not this. Though this IS nice. Maybe.  Shoulda grabbed this first, but I sort of forgot. It's required to continue when we set the shifter to the B Sanctum.  This hidden door is ALSO required. It lets us finish the one-way door maze... when we return to the original space.  That also has the bonus of letting us get to the second phase shifter. Gonna ignore that for now.  Vitality Incense is still the worst incense. We've got our pile from the first run still sitting here. This can join them.  This elevator. Remember this elevator. We'll be needing it later. It is important.  Oh and there's more poison tiles in the top-left, just cause.  So that second sanctum? It just affects that one room. There's nothing hidden in it in either sanctum. Why does thie exist? What is the point?!  Let's just make real progress, then. Gonna head back to the central stairs in B3F which lets us get to here.  And immediately after that, we have a spot that mirrors the location where we found Maya. I think we found where we need to go. ...I realise that from your perspective that didn't seem to bad, but even with the Red Carpet getting through that took about an hour. That's absurd.  Are you ready? Careful now.We do get one last chance here to switch gear etc. Just because I'm paranoid and it's Always Helpful, gonna be using the Dragon Ring for this one. Silence It's a little too quiet...Generic flash of white, but it does it twice! Wh-What the...!? In The Master's Name   Thou art... a human? A human!? I see... I know not who hath sent thee, but... I cannot allow the seal to be broken by anyone. Atone for thy transgression with death! Geist Alilat Vehement Rageoh back to this again  So, Alilat has no weaknesses. Hurray! She also has almost no offense. gently caress.  She can do a basic attack. Which hits one person. She's already doing this wrong, I think.  In terms of offense, she has exactly one trick. Well, one and a half when she remembers to do this.  Her only actual attack is Megidolaon. She has no buffs, no debuffs, no way to clear any of them, no elemental attacks, only Megidolaon and her basic attack. This IS semi-threatening because Megidolaon is Almighty so Guarding does NOT reduce its damage output, and that damage IS with us at +4 and her at -4.  It's only semi-threatening because she doesn't Concentrate for each casting. And not doing that completely tanks its damage output.  Resistance-wise, she's strong to Phys, immune to Gun, Expel, Curse and all ailments. Oh and she has 3500HP and will rarely cast Diarahan. Yawn.  End In The Master's Name But the restoration of the primal Earth neareth its end... He can do nothing, even should the seal be broken... The ancient world I crave... Palace of Pleasure I can now recover a lost aspect of myself. The time has come for me to reveal myself to you. As you have surely realized... I am no human. I borrowed the form of your crew to search for one capable of defeating that demon.> Light is gathering around the crewman...   Hey Metatron, how's it goin'? It feels really weird to have you relegated to sidequests like this, but at least that's still more than he got in SMT2 where has was... a random encounter.  But... Even this form is temporary. By freeing the Holy Spirits sealed away all across the lands, I shall regain my true form. To assume my true brilliance... That is the goal I seek. I am sorry to have deceived you. You tricked me. No. I did not lie when I made my promise to you. I brought you here with a tale of treasure guarded by a demon. That demon's skull is precisely the rare forma that will prove useful in your mission... You should have it as a trophy. Please, take it. Like he said, this is a rare forma. It's also a special one and in part the reason why I beelined for this at the earliest opportunity. ...Lance. Will you indulge me in hearing me speak of ancient times? Law Theme The place you humans know as the Schwarzwelt... It reflects the anger of the mother goddesses... and of Mother Earth itself, you might say. But the earth understood that it would be difficult to carry out. As long as He protected the humans, the situation we find ourselves in now could not have occurred. But this equilibrium was eroded over time. Worship of Him faltered, and the Earth did not fail to seize the moment once His power weakened. The mother goddesses subdued Him as they were once subdued.Wow, so I guess He was a chumpy loser.  I believe a part of me is sealed deep in this land. It is a power that calls out to me... I can feel it. Your spirit is not in harmony with our own... But even so, I must rely on you. Gotta admit, I do like how that thing that sets itself up for a moment as an alignment check isn't. You can do this at any alignment and Metatron doesn't get pissy or anything. No. I see. If that is your will... I shall remain here until I become accustomed to this body. Should you decide to help me, return to this place.But, uh, gently caress it. We'll deal with this later. We can't even do it right now anyway. Not because it's too difficult or anything. It's actually impossible right now.  So, usable Alilat is just the boss fight Alilat but with less HP. Same skills, same easy MO, same immunity to all ailments (barring Rage of course). She's even still a Geist race, which is weird because Alilat is the only Geist. I dunno. Oh and her source is straight up the objective best in the game AND the only guaranteed spot for 2 special skills (straight up the only way to get one, and the other is... well, getting Alilat is a prerequisite). I am 99% sure it's the sole reason she's relegated to being NG+ only as a usable demon. It sure isn't because she herself is overpowered and good; her best stat is loving Vitality for godsake.  The Nabatea Stone lets you get this. Scanning Zero is kind of amazingly good and what I would recommend actually getting before mapping out things like Horologium B1F. Y'know, if you still care about maps at this point. But, uh, anyway, how about plot differences? Let's see what we get on a road that is not Law...
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Mar 20, 2017 02:00
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Sounds to me like humans are pretty ungrateful to this god, seeing as how he apparently was the reason they became the dominant species. Typical! Though it does explain why neither Law nor Chaos actually likes humans. We're apparently backstabbing opportunists. Of course the entire premise of this situation makes absolutely zero sense in general, because it's not clear how the god could have beaten the Mothers the first time around if he was powered by belief. Tallgeese fucked around with this message at 02:22 on Mar 20, 2017 |
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Mar 20, 2017 02:17
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The old LP showed all the endings but it didn't show the NG+ stuff so this is all new to me. Interesting to see Metatron down here. I wonder if ol' Bub is around as well.
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Mar 20, 2017 03:36
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Metatron in the SJ-verse seems like a cool enough guy to hang out with. Certainly level headed enough. Also lets NOT get into the Law/Chaos
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Mar 20, 2017 03:37
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It's not actually Metatron... and yet kind of is. Anyway, he says so himself that he's just taking his form.
Tallgeese fucked around with this message at 03:54 on Mar 20, 2017 |
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Mar 20, 2017 03:46
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Disappointed that the New Megaten subapp does not let you play a rom of an old SMT game
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Mar 20, 2017 06:32
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Kemix posted:Metatron in the SJ-verse seems like a cool enough guy to hang out with. Certainly level headed enough. Also lets NOT get into the Law/Chaos Metatron in general is probably the chillest of all the angels in SMT games. As long as you're not spitting in their face openly (see: SMT3), you don't get the business given to you. Tallgeese posted:Of course the entire premise of this situation makes absolutely zero sense in general, because it's not clear how the god could have beaten the Mothers the first time around if he was powered by belief. It was Goku and he needed to charge the Spirit Bomb. KataraniSword fucked around with this message at 12:54 on Mar 20, 2017 |
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Mar 20, 2017 12:52
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Gabriel is even chiller, actually. Just gave absolutely no drat about anything in SMT2. Also, that makes more sense than SMT cosmology does most of the time, so.
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Mar 20, 2017 15:54
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KataraniSword posted:Metatron in general is probably the chillest of all the angels in SMT games. As long as you're not spitting in their face openly (see: SMT3), you don't get the business given to you.
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Mar 20, 2017 16:58
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The Land Where The Seed's Memories Lie Buried Alright, so first up we have to deal with "how to get back into proper Grus." Can't just use a hidden door from the other side because it's Search D which is annoying. Yes. ...I understand your desire for my hymn. Let us hurry to the lair of the demons.Into the sanctum we go...  Silence> Zelenin quietly caught her breath. Now, I shall sing... The melody of the Lord that will echo throughout the defiled land of the demons! The hymn of order! Law Theme> Zelenin began singing in an otherworldly voice...    Gaaaah! My body! It's... echoing through my body! Make it stop! ...It's her! Her! That angel-human Zelenin... Urgh! Bn...nb... Huh, so Zelenin's song just reverts demons back to being Unknowns? That's kind of weird, since until now it is very clear that this is just how they look to us before the Demonica can analyze them.    That bitch of an angel! Agh...! The echo is... My body...! Mistress Maya... save... us... Hebehg! Hvrgkj...! G... gha...  Silence ...It is finished. After this and Maya's attack, much of my strength is depleted... The demons' power is weakened. The seal on the door should be broken.  Chaos Theme  Killing all those demons you hated so much... You must feel pretty proud of yourself, huh? I could feel that dam song in my gut, too... Tch! And you, Lance... I can't believe you sat back and watched! Out of the two options, this was the quickest and most efficient way to open the door. Hard to argue with the results.  I have done nothing that goes against the rules of this world, Jimenez.  What's it gonna take to stop someone like you...?> Jimenez left...  Is that just his way, or is his cursed body driving him to shun me...? Either way, it has no bearing on the path we must aim for. Pffffft, nah. That sounds pretty dumb. Goodbye...> Zelenin left wearily... And then we run through all of the rest of Grus, because nothing else happens. There's the Gore scene but that's not affected by alignment stuff so we find a quick route through Grus (spoilers: it's still not THAT quick), beat up Maya, get the Exotic Matter and enter Horologium. Silence Meeting up with Gore outside of Mem Aleph's chamber is when things get interesting again. Oh and because he's a hardcore daredevil Lance Murdock decides to not use demons for almost anything. This part included.   ...Which brings me to the point, Murdoch. You have a decision to make. With all you've seen and learned about the Schwarzwelt... I have to know whether you're up to the job of risking your life to save mankind. The End  In The Master's Name You are a demon wearing the uniform of the investigative team... I cannot allow a world where humans turn into demons!> Gore attacked! Lowest Effort Meta Gore Vehement Rage This fight is completely identical to last time we saw it, but with one little twist. Murdock is solo, sure, but he also has the Gaia Ring equipped.  ...What, it's not a new fight? I get to low-effort things as well you know.  Moan Bullet's damage right now is pretty okay but we can do better. A lot better.  Not like this fight requires it or anything, though.  After all, as you may recall: Gore has nothing but Phys and Gun elemental attacks.  It's pretty easy as a result. I feel like even with the Tactical Vest equipped here (lowest defense) I can do better (quicker) if I bring like a Doppelganger or a Hathor or something. Hmm actually, this gives me an idea... End Sorrow At this rate... the Earth... mankind itself... ...will disappear... ...  At this rate, all functions of the Red Sprite will be unrecoverable. All hands. Good... bye. I wish you all. Good luuuuuck... ...... ...  It's Jimenez... He's come back! Jesus, he's got his gun drawn... And there's a swarm of demons with him! Chaos Theme  Starting today, this is the ship that'll take back our freedom--for humans AND demons! My friends, it's time you received the baptism of your demon mothers!   Uuuuuugh... Gyaaaah...! Raaaaaggggggrrrr...! You killed Gore, huh? Thanks for that. He's a traitor who turned his back on the demon mothers.  Now, there's no one on this ship who doesn't want a world filled with demons. ...Didn't need to change anything about you though, did I?Yeah, so Jimenez can also somehow just mind control people now I guess? That really came out of nowhere. Let's go for it, you and me.> Jimenez stuck out his right hand.  The first and last time Lance Murdock decides to participate in Handshake Simulator 2009. You need to get filled in on the plan, Lance. You know who I'm talking about, right? She's the one Gore showed you. Go see her. She'll tell you what you need to do to make the world we want. I'm counting on you, man. Go see Mem Aleph on B9 of this sector. Prayer Welp, you know what time it is. Didn't think we'd get away without more of these, did you?  You're free to, huh...? Heh heh. I can feel it... something inside of me is loose now!  The command room's pretty beat up, but y'know, that's fitting. Makes a nice symbol for the end of order! No more commands! No more leaders!  It's the kind of thing I ought to despise as the direct opposite of a doctor's calling... and yet...! Now, it's things like that which shine most brilliantly to me... They seem most vibrant and alive. Who knew this side of me ever existed...?  Ya ready for it...? I'll keep makin' ya stuff... Forma... bring 'em here! Bring all you can! More! MORE!Irving probably changes the least by far here. He's not even different, really; he's just Irving Turned Up To 11.   Like... logic isn't so in the way anymore, and I can see the forma combining themselves in my head.. ...Is this true freedom of thought? Maybe this new world won't be so bad after all...Dent, of course, doesn't change unless/until we do all the EX Missions for the Red Sprite crew so we'll just take the elevator back down to B9F. Silence  I am Mem Aleph. The mother who lives in the depths of the waters of thought, giving birth to life on Earth... As proof that you and I are connected... I shall give you this power... Eternal Throne  All you have done in my world... It was all to further your strength as a soldier, and for that, you have my forgiveness. The losses... the sacrifice... They were to gain a soldier who could reshape the human world.> Mem Aleph is gazing at you.   But then... destructive energies, giving birth to nothing, began flowing into this land... And as this happened, the Earth began to decay.> Mem Aleph took a deep breath...  To destroy the Earth is to destroy yourself. What you call the Schwarzwelt was formed and put on Earth for that very purpose. To rebuild the Earth using the power of the Cosmic Eggs...> Mem Aleph took a deep breath...  I tried to give them to the demons invading Earth, but they have been scattered... If the power was to be released on the Earth, a paradise of demons and true humans would result.True humans? Y'know, I am very okay with suddenly joining the Clan of Noah.  That is your task. ...I shall give you this. One with your skill should be able to put it to good use. Had to get it somehow; I guess Mem Aleph herself handing it to us works. The four Cosmic Eggs you must collect are in the four lands closest to Earth. Leave this land and find them. The angels who have infiltrated this world will surely try to hinder you. Be careful. When you gather all the Cosmic Eggs, return here to me... Now go, he who would forge a free world of demons and humans... A Scorched Nation Cosmic Eggs round 2 is not too different to the last time we did it, but it IS effectively reversed yeah. Just gonna try and get through this as quick as we can. Oh and Scanning Zero is nice enough to remember to map things that you don't have the Visualiser for. Just a shame it's gated at the halfway point of Grus exclusive to NG+ onwards. Anyway, Antlia Egg! Chaos Theme  Mistress Mem Aleph told me to give you this and crush anyone who isn't you! Here y'go! The amazing Cosmic Egg #1! I hear if you collect 'em all, you can remake this world into a demon-ruled paradise! Kinda reminds me of when I was born... ...Huh? Humans don't remember the time they're formed from eggs? You're gonna have problems later on, then... Alright, take care and watch yourself. The drat angels are ater those things too. I'm lookin' forward to seeing you put those progs in their place, heheh. Later!> Wu Kong left... So, yeah, it's pretty clear how things are going to go now huh? Let's go see Yatagarasu in Bootes then! Law Theme  What breed of hatred drives you to fill the human world with demons...? Most regrettable. I, Yatagarasu, shall deliver this Cosmic Egg to Mistress Zelenin. But I have one other errand first. I shall deliver you to your death! An Honor Befitting That Name Oh no, not Yatagarasu. Well, at least there's 3 of them so they can actually maybe get a turn. Weak to Gun and Ice, drain Fire, use Maragidyne and if they're feeling really daring they might add a Sukukaja!  They have 1000HP each for all the nothing that matters, Moving on. Chaos Theme  I until now guarded the Cosmic Egg that I have. Solely via holding it, power is there definitely. This egg can forge a world. Orders are mine to give you it. Please, take, known one. We will in harmony regain he powerfulness of gods. The power intense of Great Mother Mem Aleph. Experience the times of the new world is wishing. Now goodbye.> Zhu Yin left. And that just leaves Delphinus. Law Theme  The chosen one, the one who shall bring about the world the Lord wishes, is known to me. But you... are Lance. Therefore... death unto you! An Honor Befitting That Name Well, Cherub sure is a Cherub alright. Weak to Elec, reflects Wind, he can do a Megidola and has 1200HP. In this case he never gets a turn, oops.  Chaos Theme Let's go give her the good news! Time for our victory march to the Horologium! Prayer We'll go back to Horologium in a moment; first, we gotta see what the crew have to say now. But I found myself, man. The real me, buried deep down... There's no backing out now... Let's make that new world! Well, not anymore... I'm so excited, I can hardly hold back! I never knew what true freedom would be like... how wonderful it is to let yourself go! But I know now... Fighting is the only truth in life! Never does life shine more brilliantly than in battle, on the cusp of life and death! Oh... what a wonderful world we'll make! ANd it's nearly here...! But there's still a thing or two to take care of first... our battle with the angels! Now... bring the forma! Go against them... with the best, strongest equipment...! ...All of these dangerous creative images I'd been holding back are racing through my mind. Come on, Lance. Let's bring our new world to life! Then I can free the images within me! It'll be soooo much fun! Ahahahaha!Alright, so back to Horologium we go... Silence  Law Theme  I am Israfel, a messenger of the Lord, who is slow to forgive evil spirits. Lance Murdock... fallen human who has cast his lot with the demons... I have received orders from the heavens to obliterate you. Our Lord is upset. Zelenin is most upset. Only the Holy Spirits of light are permitted on Earth; we who sing the Lord's teachings. Here, you shall listen... to your grand finale! An Honor Befitting That Name Israfel sure isn't Surtr. Weak to Fire and immune to Ice for starters! Oh and he has 1500HP, can cast Luster Candy and sometimes uses Horn of Fate. How very... something. Silence  So, how's the elevator?> You inspected the elevator... > The elevator is completely broken. Fixing it will be difficult... Tch... This POS is kaput. Yeah, so we still gotta go through all of Horologium. It makes sense but it's still pretty annoying. Mainly for me since you don't have to see any of it. Gonna skip all the way down to B5F now. That's where we fought Jimenez before, so it's bound to be where Zelenin is now.  Law Theme Oh, hi there Mastema. Wasn't expecting to see you here.  Still.... I did not think it would be me that would be called to return you to dust. There was a time when I thought you would understand the will of our Lord, but... Evidently not. How regrettable it is for you to be seduced. ... ...... Silence ...Yes this must happen. In The Master's Name  So, yeah, uh depending on your interpretation Mastema's either secretly been a fucko all along or he's lying right now. For actively no reason or benefit or anything. ' It is when you try to forge your own path, human, that you err! Urrrrrrrrgh! Wretched humanity! Zelenin... she is my sole remaining hope! I cannot tolerate another failure! I must be acknowledged by my Lord! Only then can I leave behind this angel's form and ascend to something more supreme! Lance! I will rend your flesh between my teeth anf tear your soul asunder! Herald Mastema Vehement Rage Oh boy, Mastema fight let's go! Mastema is of course an angel but also kind of a fallen angel. His name is Hebrew for Hostility, he's the persector of evil within Judaism and also he is Satan and tried repeatedly to kill Moses. That whole "killing all the firstborns" thing? Mastema's idea.  I, uh, Great Lament is meant to be Frolic but with a different name. It also apparently has a different, abysmal proc rate because I've never, ever, ever seen it hit.  Untainted Wind is just Magarudyne, basically. It's not even really any stronger. Just multitarget Wind damage, very ho hum.  Judgement is Mahamaon with probably a higher proc rate? In this case I don't know or really care. It's Expel elemental and it's not Light/Darkness from Mem Aleph so it's not a major-major threat if you don't Tetraja Stone. But Tetraja Stones are common as dirt so.  Mel Faize is multi-target Almighty damage. ...I don't know what Faize is when translated from Hebrew, sorry. Mel Faize IS definitely Hebrew (Mel means Complete) though.  Really, he's a secret jerk not for his attacks but because he reflects Gun. And Ice and Wind, but Gun is the important one. He's weak to Fire though so his 8500HP doesn't last long. He's way, way easier than Jimenez was, even without wacky NG+ shenanigans. End Silence > Someone interupted the conversation... Chaos Theme  This is not a surprise. You saw this coming immediately when we first met her.  This is what you angels, born by the breath of God, get for scheming to rebuild the earth. ...You were... a part of this...? Curse... you... But know this... No matter... how much you support humans... nothing... will change... Humans, born of the God's madness, belong to me. I have no love for them. But neither will I abandon them. That is freedom. But you, Mastema... you have no freedom. You have nothing you started yourself. Think on that as you fade from this world. ...Curse... you... You who have abandoned the angels... and humans... alike... Ugh... Uggggh... ...Good show, Lance. This should kill the angels' enthusiasm. Of course, there still is one troublesome spirit remaining... Well, best of luck. I'll be watching.
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Mar 22, 2017 02:08
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This is similar to, say, Vyce in Tactics Ogre, honestly. Sudden personality swap depending on the path in order to force someone to be an enemy. Mastema is an obvious case. We've already seen another one: Jimenez on any other path would not be OK with the stunt he pulled to take over the Red Sprite.
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Mar 22, 2017 02:50
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If they had just butchered everyone in the Red Spirit then that would have made more sense.
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Mar 22, 2017 02:52
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Mastema always struck me as arrogant/condescending shady so that didn't surprise me, but yeah the whole thing with Jimenez didn't make sense with his characterization or what chaos is suppose to be. I think the intent is those things just get rid of inhibitions, but the writing's poo poo so it just feels like another form of brain washing. I always liked Lucifer's line here about his/her view of humanity for some reason, though Lucifer's appearance is so infrequent and underutilized that they might as well not be in the game. Robindaybird fucked around with this message at 03:36 on Mar 22, 2017 |
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Mar 22, 2017 03:31
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Those Ragnaroks. 
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Mar 22, 2017 03:51
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I really like how Irving just wants to mess with weird poo poo, no matter the route.
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Mar 22, 2017 04:55
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It would have made more sense and work just as well if Jiminez came in and just bullied everyone into submission. Be all 'my might makes right so try and say no if you're tough enough' or whatever. Here, he's just doing practically the same thing he got so mad at Zelenin for. Great to see Gore get personally manhandled by Murdock though! Somehow this feels most appropriate for this route eternaldough fucked around with this message at 11:15 on Mar 22, 2017 |
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Mar 22, 2017 05:48
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law makes you a mindless slave, while chaos makes you high on cocaine and that's why i choose the neutral route whenever i replay it
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Mar 22, 2017 07:05
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So Chaos is as bad an ending as Law? Makes sense. Also, I'm another person who isn't surprised that Mastema is a scumbag.
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Mar 22, 2017 18:48
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SweaterGear posted:So Chaos is as bad an ending as Law? Makes sense. Also, I'm another person who isn't surprised that Mastema is a scumbag. It wouldn't surprise me that even on the "Lol thousand year kingdom" route he's secretly a douchebag because it always seems to be in an Angel's DNA to brutally murder whoever isn't in their "not shitlords" club.
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Mar 23, 2017 04:02
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Tallgeese posted:Mastema is an obvious case. A compelling argument. On the other hand, everything else that's happened in the game.
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Mar 23, 2017 04:22
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Mastema was always pretty shady, even when he's nice towards the player, he's kind of condescending about it, and does nothing to alleviate Zelenin's fears but rather bolster them with the 'you can trust me and only me'. And it's no accident that he's the only major character that's masked every time we see him.
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Mar 23, 2017 04:30
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Robindaybird posted:Mastema was always pretty shady, even when he's nice towards the player, he's kind of condescending about it, and does nothing to alleviate Zelenin's fears but rather bolster them with the 'you can trust me and only me'. Ah, but have you considered that him being Law-aligned means he's fundamentally Good and any implication to the contrary is merely the writers forcing him to be un-Good?
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Mar 23, 2017 04:36
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The Mattybee posted:Ah, but have you considered that him being Law-aligned means he's fundamentally Good and any implication to the contrary is merely the writers forcing him to be un-Good? Ah yes, forgot who originally brought that point up.
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Mar 23, 2017 04:40
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And now we have our two Moral Extremes endings, and to the surprise of no one, both are horrible for humanity. Law - You have a choice. Either get a magic lobotomy and spend every waking moment singing the praises of a god whose only desire is to be praised for doing nothing, or you can 'return to the formless matter', which is a pretty blatant euphemism for dead and decomposing. Chaos - You have a choice. Either follow the path of the Demi-Fiend and get real good at punching demons in the face, or else those demons are gonna punch you in the face. (That's a euphemism for tearing you limb from limb, and twisting your head off like it's the cap on a bottle of water) Now personally, I think Chaos is better than Law, but I'm pretty sure that Gore's ending is probably gonna have the best outcome for the planet.
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Mar 23, 2017 06:59
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Robindaybird posted:Mastema was always pretty shady, even when he's nice towards the player, he's kind of condescending about it, and does nothing to alleviate Zelenin's fears but rather bolster them with the 'you can trust me and only me'. Your memory is questionable. She straight up asks him if the crew is tainted and this is his answer:  Again, this is not difficult. Suddenly swapping someone's personality or making them do something out of character when you need to make them an opponent is a common strategy when you have multiple routes. They kind of had to put somebody in that room and justify it, for reasons we will shortly see. --- Also, we literally just saw what was meant by "returning to formless existence". They turned into Unknowns.
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Mar 23, 2017 15:05
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The chaos-route theory on humanity is that the human spirit is essentially a will to power and desire to be free of constraints. Order has placed limits on this (inhibitions, etc.) and so what's happening here isn't so much mind control as removing the limit, after which people are free to be their true chaotic selves. Interestingly, the angels don't seem to disagree. They see humans as inherently flawed and prone to sin and needing control and guidance to behave "correctly." Of course, no one asked anyone if they wanted their inhibitions removed. Some might, some might not.
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Mar 23, 2017 16:03
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Tallgeese posted:Your memory is questionable. She straight up asks him if the crew is tainted and this is his answer: Oh hey. The Mattybee posted:Ah, but have you considered that him being Law-aligned means he's fundamentally Good and any implication to the contrary is merely the writers forcing him to be un-Good? The easy counterpoint is that he is lying. Now can you stop your, what, nine-year run of being a lovely gimmick poster in every SMT LP thread?
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Mar 23, 2017 16:30
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I'm not exactly the only person on the Internet to have pointed out it's not in-character, if I recall.
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Mar 23, 2017 16:43
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Does everyone not realize this is a Japanese RPG that is infamous for (1) making GBS threads on the Christian idea of God every opportunity (2) making any Chaos route the "better" one (to angsty teens but that's another story entirely) (3) making absolutely no sense when it comes to continuity, logic, or...anything, ever? So yeah Mastema is just filler. They didn't feel like putting in someone cool like Uriel, would cost more to get the art. They want to spend as little money as possible to make goons argue on the internet.
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Mar 23, 2017 16:50
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Would you say that some people need to just... chill? 
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Mar 23, 2017 16:56
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Tallgeese posted:I'm not exactly the only person on the Internet to have pointed out it's not in-character, if I recall. Okay, and? Mastema being a manipulative poo poo is not contradictory with the rest of that conversation, lovely Law Gimmick Poster.
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Mar 23, 2017 16:57
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Hmm? That was your whole point. The question is whether he was lying the whole time or if it was a character switch that is never hinted at anywhere else. Considering we are talking about a series infamous for that sort of sudden character shift... do I really need to spell it out?
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Mar 23, 2017 17:00
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