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Bryter
Nov 6, 2011

but since we are small we may-
uh, we may be the losers



You're more than welcome to explain to me what of that constitutes an attempt to excuse ethnic cleansing or genocide.

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Mr Luxury Yacht
Apr 16, 2012




Jumping to try and explain "Ugh guys it was only ethnic cleansing not genocide" is, uh, lovely and real loving weird man.

Like even if you were right and it was "only" ethnic cleansing then what, it wasn't a thing worth opposing? It's still comes across as trying to downplay thousands killed, tens of thousands raped, and hundreds of thousands expelled from their homes.

Mr Luxury Yacht has a new favorite as of 21:41 on May 23, 2020

Bryter
Nov 6, 2011

but since we are small we may-
uh, we may be the losers


Mr Luxury Yacht posted:

Jumping to try and explain "Ugh guys it was only ethnic cleansing not genocide" is, uh, lovely and real loving weird man.

Like even if you were right and it was "only" ethnic cleansing then what, it wasn't a thing worth opposing?

I didn't say that, I said that an early day motion sponsored by Jeremy Corbyn which said that what occured in Kosovo didn't constitute a genocide wasn't saying anything especially contrarian, given that that was the judgement of the UN court charged with investigating it.

But to answer your question, yes, regardless of whatever you call what happened in Kosovo, it was horrific and worth opposing. I am opposed to it. It's possible to be opposed to something and not think that a bombing campaign can help.

Norton the First
Dec 4, 2018


Did the bombing campaign not help?

Vincent Van Goatse
Nov 8, 2006

Don't be so gloomy. After all it's not that awful. Like the fella says, in Italy for thirty years under the Borgias they had warfare, terror, murder, and bloodshed, but they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci, and the Renaissance.




Smellrose


In other words, you have no point and are just trying to muddy waters for no discernible reason.

And checking your post history ITT you also tried to downplay anti-semitism in America too.

Bryter
Nov 6, 2011

but since we are small we may-
uh, we may be the losers


Vincent Van Goatse posted:

In other words, you have no point and are just trying to muddy waters for no discernible reason.

And checking your post history ITT you also tried to downplay anti-semitism in America too.

I had a point, namely that Jeremy Corbyn is not some tankie crank, in a discussion 6 months ago. It's not really of any interest or relevance now, but I'm not the one quoting it.

And no, checking my post history ITT I didn't.

Norton the First posted:

Did the bombing campaign not help?

No. International monitors were put in place at the end of 1998, and when they were withdrawn in preparation for the bombing campaign the violence rapidly escalated and the campaign of ethnic cleansing began in earnest. Chomsky did a pretty comprehensive review of NATO's involvement, although I'm sure anarchists too are in fact tankies in the minds of the more unhinged posters ITT.

Vincent Van Goatse
Nov 8, 2006

Don't be so gloomy. After all it's not that awful. Like the fella says, in Italy for thirty years under the Borgias they had warfare, terror, murder, and bloodshed, but they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci, and the Renaissance.




Smellrose

Bryter posted:

although I'm sure anarchists too are in fact tankies in the minds of the more unhinged posters ITT.

Ah, abuse.

Julius CSAR
Oct 3, 2007

Shut up and die like an aviator.

Bryter posted:

I had a point, namely that Jeremy Corbyn is not some tankie crank, in a discussion 6 months ago. It's not really of any interest or relevance now, but I'm not the one quoting it.

And no, checking my post history ITT I didn't.


No. International monitors were put in place at the end of 1998, and when they were withdrawn in preparation for the bombing campaign the violence rapidly escalated and the campaign of ethnic cleansing began in earnest. Chomsky did a pretty comprehensive review of NATO's involvement, although I'm sure anarchists too are in fact tankies in the minds of the more unhinged posters ITT.

Noam Chomsky is/was also a genocide denier so that’s a great choice for you

Norton the First
Dec 4, 2018


Bryter posted:

No. International monitors were put in place at the end of 1998, and when they were withdrawn in preparation for the bombing campaign the violence rapidly escalated and the campaign of ethnic cleansing began in earnest. Chomsky did a pretty comprehensive review of NATO's involvement, although I'm sure anarchists too are in fact tankies in the minds of the more unhinged posters ITT.

Look, I enjoy Chomsky, but seriously, what the gently caress are you talking about?

Nobody forced the Serbs to commit war crimes. That was very much on them, and reversing the causality is monumentally stupid.

Mr Luxury Yacht
Apr 16, 2012




Julius CSAR posted:

Noam Chomsky is/was also a genocide denier so that’s a great choice for you

Did he ever end up recanting his whole "The Cambodian genocide is lies" thing?

I sure as hell hope so by now.

Bryter
Nov 6, 2011

but since we are small we may-
uh, we may be the losers


Norton the First posted:

Look, I enjoy Chomsky, but seriously, what the gently caress are you talking about?

Nobody forced the Serbs to commit war crimes. That was very much on them, and reversing the causality is monumentally stupid.

The withdrawal of international monitors and chaos caused by the bombing gave them the opportunity to commit war crimes on a much larger scale than previously. Obviously it's ultimately "on them", but whether the bombing helped is a separate question from that of assigning responsibility.


Forgive me for not sparing the feelings of the people accusing me of being in favour of and/or denying a genocide.

Vincent Van Goatse
Nov 8, 2006

Don't be so gloomy. After all it's not that awful. Like the fella says, in Italy for thirty years under the Borgias they had warfare, terror, murder, and bloodshed, but they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci, and the Renaissance.




Smellrose

Bryter posted:

Forgive me for not sparing the feelings of the people accusing me of being in favour of and/or denying a genocide.

Sorry for telling the truth.

Pharohman777
Jan 14, 2012



Bryter posted:

The withdrawal of international monitors and chaos caused by the bombing gave them the opportunity to commit war crimes on a much larger scale than previously. Obviously it's ultimately "on them", but whether the bombing helped is a separate question from that of assigning responsibility.


Forgive me for not sparing the feelings of the people accusing me of being in favour of and/or denying a genocide.

That still puts most of the blame on the Serbian side because those forces made a conscious, deliberate choice to escalate to open ethnic cleansing once international observers were withdrawn in preparation for war.
NATO is only at fault for not quite realizing how eager the serbian forces were to commit war crimes against civilians.

The fault of the west in the escalation exists, but is minimal in comparison to the serbs deliberate decision to commit more war crimes.

Norton the First
Dec 4, 2018


This was a regime that had supported a genocide just a few years prior and which, famously, did not give a flying poo poo about international observers/peacekeeping forces. Saying "nah, we're not falling for this again" is such an eminently reasonable reaction that unless you're a Serbian nationalist I cannot believe anyone would take the other side. Chomsky gets a lot of leeway from me for doing good work, but sometimes he's just a contrarian.

Bryter
Nov 6, 2011

but since we are small we may-
uh, we may be the losers


Pharohman777 posted:

That still puts most of the blame on the Serbian side because those forces made a conscious, deliberate choice to escalate to open ethnic cleansing once international observers were withdrawn in preparation for war.
NATO is only at fault for not quite realizing how eager the serbian forces were to commit war crimes against civilians.

The fault of the west in the escalation exists, but is minimal in comparison to the serbs deliberate decision to commit more war crimes.

NATO did anticipate the Serbian response, at least according to Wesley Clarke. From the Chomsky article linked above:

quote:

As the bombing campaign began, U.S.-NATO Commanding General Wesley Clark informed the press that it was “entirely predictable” that Serb terror would intensify as a result. Shortly after, Clark explained again that “The military authorities fully anticipated the vicious approach that Milosevic would adopt, as well as the terrible efficiency with which he would carry it out.” Elaborating a few weeks later, he observed that the NATO operation planned by “the political leadership…was not designed as a means of blocking Serb ethnic cleansing. It was not designed as a means of waging war against the Serb and MUP [internal police] forces in Kosovo. Not in any way. There was never any intent to do that. That was not the idea.”

But, again, I agree that it's ultimately the responsibility of those who actually committed the war crimes. What I said is that the intervention didn't help, contributed to the escalation, and in no way deserves its reputation as The Good War.

Norton the First
Dec 4, 2018


But what if we had just been more reasonable with the war criminal who really liked doing war crimes?

Not only did the intervention result in a free Kosovo, it also helped break the back of Milošević's criminal regime, Serbian toxic nationalism more generally, and ultimately helped lead to the nation of Serbia becoming a modern European country.

Norton the First
Dec 4, 2018


quote not edit

Alaois
Feb 7, 2012

D U S T M A N


this is worse than balkan youtube comments

Pastry of the Year
Apr 12, 2013



Bryter, I don't follow this thread. I don't want to follow this thread. But as a mod I'm obligated to reply to reports, and from what I've read over the past couple of pages, you need to take a nice long walk away from this thread for a bit. I don't want to probate you yet - just loving cool your heels for a while.

Byzantine
Sep 1, 2007



Alaois posted:

this is worse than balkan youtube comments

this all started when the slavs moved in

Pharohman777
Jan 14, 2012



Tankies gonna tank.
https://twitter.com/FredTitmus/stat...535779642093569
https://twitter.com/AlMuntherO_O/st...000338740350980
https://twitter.com/groundworking/s...073022966808576
https://twitter.com/LeninSwo/status/1264014138423951361
https://twitter.com/ComradeNunya/st...375024900886528

Julius CSAR
Oct 3, 2007

Shut up and die like an aviator.

Crazy how the CIA paid off every protester in Hong Kong.

This poo poo is just so dumb. Like these people have no agency of their own they’re all just western puppets. Give me a loving break.

Fojar38
Sep 1, 2011


Sorry I meant to say I hope that the police use maximum force and kill or maim a bunch of innocent people, thus paving a way for a proletarian uprising and socialist utopia


also here's a stupid take
---------------------------->


Julius CSAR posted:

Crazy how the CIA paid off every protester in Hong Kong.

This poo poo is just so dumb. Like these people have no agency of their own they’re all just western puppets. Give me a loving break.

Denying the agency of local populations when compared to small groups of elites who live far away is a critical element of anti-Imperialism

Pharohman777
Jan 14, 2012



This is what that tankie was talking about when he tried to get vaushv's attention on twitter.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CcTaeCiNh2U

Pharohman777
Jan 14, 2012



Julius CSAR posted:

Crazy how the CIA paid off every protester in Hong Kong.

This poo poo is just so dumb. Like these people have no agency of their own they’re all just western puppets. Give me a loving break.

Its kinda amazing how tankies have pissed off leftists in syria, ex-yugoslav regions, the Philippines, etc; because they keep dismissing and attempting to rewrite real, important history that leftists there have actually had to deal with the reality of.

A page or two back I featured some tweets by a syrian who was kinda brainbroken by the utter volume of pro-assad tankie bullshit coming from western 'leftists' like ben norton to the point he just universally hated western leftism in general.

This was one of the articles he posted a link to in response to a curious actual leftist who asked about why he was so bitter or something.

https://leilashami.wordpress.com/20...-of-idiots/amp/
It was written 2 years ago by a Syrian lady, and this ending line is especially pertinent:

quote:

One thing is for sure – I won’t lose any sleep over targeted strikes aimed at regime military bases and chemical weapons plants which may provide Syrians with a short respite from the daily killing. And I will never see people who place grand narratives over lived realities, who support brutal regimes in far off countries, or who peddle racism, conspiracy theories and atrocity denial, as allies.



https://twitter.com/Aimee_Arti/stat...315214882525185
https://twitter.com/historic_ly/sta...349300267192320

Pharohman777
Jan 14, 2012



https://twitter.com/PhilGreaves01/s...480237280256000
https://twitter.com/PhilGreaves01/s...491847533187074
https://twitter.com/PaulTyredagh81/...498395915354112
https://twitter.com/PhilGreaves01/s...499066924400641
https://twitter.com/PhilGreaves01/s...500601184018432
https://twitter.com/PhilGreaves01/s...501464191336448

Phil greaves probably thinks all of history is just one huge james bond movie full of conspiracies with imperialists deploying double agents like mahatma gandhi to betray revolutions.
https://twitter.com/PhilGreaves01/s...505931943026689
https://twitter.com/skilly999/statu...506280988880896
https://twitter.com/skilly999/statu...509072809824257

Phil greaves has managed to piss off a guy advocating for nonviolence. He really has mastered 'sneering condescension' to quite a level.

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised

Fojar38 posted:

Denying the agency of local populations when compared to small groups of elites who live far away is a critical element of anti-Imperialism

It's difficult to name a protest that hasn't been widely accused of this. Ironically, when the protests ARE astroturfed it's usually super obvious and no one brings it up.

Continuity RCP
Dec 30, 2010

Frank's got a Plan.



Paladinus
Jan 11, 2014

Of course, it doesn't make sense to pay more, so you can just by two cat harnesses and use one of them for sex.



Truly, a nuclear take.

Nessus
Dec 22, 2003

I still can't believe they cast Spock as me. Spock! Can you imagine?

Of course, he was missing a few things.




Ghost Leviathan posted:

It's difficult to name a protest that hasn't been widely accused of this. Ironically, when the protests ARE astroturfed it's usually super obvious and no one brings it up.
The astroturfed protests seem to centrally feature the Real Americans, so, you know, what are you gonna do.

Why can't any of these pricks spell "Gandhi" right?

TinTower
Apr 21, 2010

You don't have to 8e a good person to 8e a hero.


https://twitter.com/georgegalloway/...3174128640?s=21

Continuity RCP
Dec 30, 2010

Frank's got a Plan.



Do the lib dems have a leader yet

TinTower
Apr 21, 2010

You don't have to 8e a good person to 8e a hero.


Still have two interim co-leaders.

Vindolanda
Feb 13, 2012

It's just like him too, y'know?


TinTower posted:

Still have two interim co-leaders.

Perhaps by standing one on the other’s shoulders in a long coat they could take in a film before the meeting.

Pharohman777
Jan 14, 2012



https://twitter.com/PhilGreaves01/s...600193460326401
'only those not interested in class struggle embrace conspiracy theories. Now let me lecture you about how COVID-19 doesn't exist and is actually part of a plot by bill gates and everyone he's ensnared to sell junk vaccines.'
https://twitter.com/PhilGreaves01/s...520630755643399
https://twitter.com/PhilGreaves01/s...816863852703744

Watching phil greaves go deeper and deeper into conspiracy theories and pseudoscience is kinda fascinating to watch. He has this thick hive of conspiracy theory morons responding to him now that he occasionally fights with when a new one thinks he blames it all on the evil communists.

https://twitter.com/anonymous4835/s...662049596870657

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised


Has been a hot take that NK would be insane not to acquire and advertise nuclear weapons as soon as possible, given it's demonstrably the only way they'd retain sovereignty. Whether that's actually a good thing overall is another question, but from their perspective, it's the smart thing to do, not an insane whim.

Pharohman777
Jan 14, 2012



Hot tankie takes is a new active account dedicated to serving up the spiciest tankies around
https://twitter.com/HotTankie/statu...242152869216256
https://twitter.com/HotTankie/statu...513765068001281
https://twitter.com/It_is_I_Aku/sta...343080670126081
Partisangirl might be a facist I think. But shes an honorary tankie because of historic_ly and other tankies eagerly promoting her.
https://twitter.com/HotTankie/statu...057538531078146
https://twitter.com/HotTankie/statu...229330116694017



https://twitter.com/pplswar/status/1253034430760988673
https://twitter.com/pplswar/status/1253038365127163905

The Vosgian Beast
Aug 13, 2011

Business is slow

TinTower
Apr 21, 2010

You don't have to 8e a good person to 8e a hero.


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Pharohman777
Jan 14, 2012



https://twitter.com/B_D_Cox/status/1266162842165706753
https://twitter.com/Keluar_Gua/stat...173716636897280

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