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Tacky-Ass Rococco
Sep 6, 2010

by R. Guyovich


I really enjoyed this D&D thread, about how Stalin did literally nothing wrong. Grover Furr is my favorite tankie moonbat.

See also:

Did the Soviet Union Invade Poland in September 1939? NO!
(The answer: No, it did not.)

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Tacky-Ass Rococco
Sep 6, 2010

by R. Guyovich


Hate Fibration posted:

I have been waiting to share this! Welcome to Socialist Programmers on reddit! In that group I have found people who dislike object oriented programming languages because they believe the abstract concept of heirarchies is itself oppressive. There's also someone out there trying to use category theory to create a Marxist theory of logic by using adjoints in funny ways.

That reddit is kinda funny, but it seems to be more on the level of "let's contribute to GNU projects and then talk about Lenin," than "let's bring about an ancap dystopia using Bitcoin."

Tacky-Ass Rococco
Sep 6, 2010

by R. Guyovich


I appreciate the fact that so many extremely tedious people all decided to use the same basic template for their "about me" sections. It's like an accidental public service.

Tacky-Ass Rococco
Sep 6, 2010

by R. Guyovich



What the hell?

Tacky-Ass Rococco
Sep 6, 2010

by R. Guyovich


Homework Explainer/R Guy. is everyone's favorite (unbanned) tankie. I question the wisdom of making a literal Stalinist the mod of D&D, but so far he's behaved himself.

Tacky-Ass Rococco
Sep 6, 2010

by R. Guyovich


Are you guys claiming that Stalin did anything wrong?

Tacky-Ass Rococco
Sep 6, 2010

by R. Guyovich


I've never heard Leninist for Trotskyist. Trots tend to be pretty open about being trots. But yeah, M-L is code for Stalinist.

r/shittankiessay is a fun subreddit for anyone who enjoys this stuff. Plus it's moderated and largely populated by ultra-leftists/left-communists, which I think is a pretty neat rabbit hole to go down if you have the time.

Tacky-Ass Rococco
Sep 6, 2010

by R. Guyovich


Bryter posted:

They're not exactly marginalised in the way the term "minority group" implies.

In some sense this is true, but the Holocaust is still living memory, as is common "you can't join my country club"-type anti-antisemitism in America. I get what you're saying, but it's the sort of thing where you should probably check back in forty years.

Tacky-Ass Rococco
Sep 6, 2010

by R. Guyovich


Bryter posted:

The idea that it was going to turn into a massacre was pushed by rebels and émigrés, but there was no real reason to think that was the case.

From the UK House of Commons Foreign Affairs Committee's report on the Libyan intervention:

What about the pilots who defected rather than bomb protesters? Did they make that up?

I'm not trying to be argumentative; for all I know it turns out there was no such order.

Tacky-Ass Rococco
Sep 6, 2010

by R. Guyovich


Bryter posted:

The fact that there wasn't any other instance of a pilot being given such an order and going through with it makes me doubt it.

Isn't that a retroactive judgement? There was concrete evidence, in the form of these pilots, of the intention of committing crimes against humanity by the regime.

You're asserting that it was basically all a lie. But, to my mind, it wasn't a lie, it was perhaps a mistake. Maybe the pilots lied. But the fact that people who were entrusted by the regime with extremely expensive equipment defected was strong evidence; if the West had ignored this, they would have been condemned.

Tacky-Ass Rococco
Sep 6, 2010

by R. Guyovich


Bryter posted:

I don't think we share the same definition of concrete evidence then

It seems reasonable to doubt in retrospect. In the moment, what can you do?

Tacky-Ass Rococco
Sep 6, 2010

by R. Guyovich


Paladinus posted:

I imagine some tankies actually like Trump.

He's doing all he can to undermine American hegemony. If they don't appreciate him, they should.

Tacky-Ass Rococco
Sep 6, 2010

by R. Guyovich


The Great Purge plus the Holodomor, blaming every single famine death and prison death on Stalin, only barely reaches seven figures in terms of death toll.

I take my anti-tankiedom seriously. They are despicable, but don't latch on to false narratives, because it makes it easier for them to win.

Tacky-Ass Rococco
Sep 6, 2010

by R. Guyovich


Volcott posted:

If you have to defend someone by saying "oh but they were only directly responsible for killing a million people" they're still bad.

For a leftist or a left-liberal, the question whether Stalin is “worse than Hitler” or not is critical. This argument comes up all the time.

Tacky-Ass Rococco
Sep 6, 2010

by R. Guyovich


Avenging_Mikon posted:

I never really understood that. Can’t two people just both be really terrible?

Socialism then gets treated as just as bad as fascism, if not worse.

Tacky-Ass Rococco
Sep 6, 2010

by R. Guyovich


Osama Dozen-Dongs posted:

Uhh, did you get your stats from Pravda or something? The most conservative estimates on Wikipedia for the Great Purge and Holodomor are three million on their own duder. That's already a third of the way to 8 figures and only includes part of one decade in one country.

I screwed up my numbering. I meant to say eight, not seven.

Tacky-Ass Rococco
Sep 6, 2010

by R. Guyovich


steinrokkan posted:

Again, what you are saying is Hitler was only as bad as Churchill, and so we shouldn't totally write him off...

Yeah, in statecraft, quantifying a leader’s rate of deliberate murder ends up mattering.

Tacky-Ass Rococco
Sep 6, 2010

by R. Guyovich


Tweezer Reprise posted:

i'm saying we should totally write hitler, churchill, genghis khan, stalin, mao, alexander, napoleon etc off. all of them

Napoleon owned.

Tacky-Ass Rococco
Sep 6, 2010

by R. Guyovich


Mr. Sunshine posted:

Is "Better an empire that does evil poo poo 80% of the time than one which does evil poo poo 99% of the time" really such a bizarre idea that I have to defend it from the D&D crew? Seriously?

Please explain how a world under Russian or Chinese hegemony would be preferable to the one we have now.

The "lesser of many evils" argument is bad because ultimately it justifies Abu Ghraib. American hegemony is probably preferable to the alternatives as presented, but to make that case honestly you really have to get down into the nitty gritty stuff.

Tacky-Ass Rococco
Sep 6, 2010

by R. Guyovich



I suppose it depends on what credence you give to torture allegations made against the Chinese.

Tacky-Ass Rococco
Sep 6, 2010

by R. Guyovich


TapTheForwardAssist posted:

He definitely did some positive things, but he also racked up a decent list of human rights violations. Which I guess for a tankie falls into "gotta break some eggs to make an omelet" and all, but he's certainly not without significant downsides as recorded by reputable and neutral international observers.

As a liberal who's been conversing with socialists for a long time, I've come to completely accept the undeniable truth that every omelet is made with broken eggs. Every liberal regime has lots of skeletons in its closet. If you don't accept someone like him as, effectively, a shining counterexample to other communist regimes, then you end up stuck going point for point ad infinitum in liberalism vs. communism.

Basically, in the context of the Cold War, if he achieved excellent things with real popular support while not committing more human rights abuses than your average US-backed regime, let's just take him as a hero without quibbling.

Tacky-Ass Rococco
Sep 6, 2010

by R. Guyovich


TapTheForwardAssist posted:

I'm down with the idea that every system is going to have some nasty bits, but the rebuttal would be that if X person breaks eggs and doesn't achieve a result better than a capitalist system would've achieved, it's not a great defense. Though the corollary would be that if they achieve better results than the capitalist system while breaking a similar amount of eggs (or notably better results but proportionally more eggs) they could be counted a success.

That's my basic point, but keep in mind that advanced Western nations have had centuries to break our eggs, and developing nations can either accept Western capital (which means Western ownership and further exploitation of their resources) to modernize, or break a similar amount of eggs in a more condensed time span.

(This whole omelet metaphor has grown tiresome, so forget it.)

Burkina Faso achieved real results under socialist leadership, and they committed human rights abuses in the process that the United States wasn't committing at the time, but had been committing fifty years prior, and were being committed by them through proxies in dozens of other nations.

I suppose the essential point I'm making, reluctantly, is that we can't judge, or must very carefully judge, human rights abuses from our comfy armchairs in first-world countries. Because all of our nations achieved our current comfort after centuries of abuses, internal and external. Pretty much every developing nation ends up suffering from the same. They eventually all have to...make souffles.

At the very least we can't be hypocrites. Liberal states have aided and abetted some of the most godawful regimes in the world. Burkina Faso was immensely superior in terms of justice when compared to South Africa, and their results were pretty good. Let's give them credit and let them be.

Tacky-Ass Rococco
Sep 6, 2010

by R. Guyovich


He's the best. If helldumping weren't against the rules he could provide an infinite source of energy to this thread. There is literally no crime he will not defend.

Tacky-Ass Rococco
Sep 6, 2010

by R. Guyovich


Hate Fibration posted:

"You can't criticize X for doing Y because you did Y" is baby idiot logic.

I didn't actually say we can't, though.

It's easy to condemn the nations that are doing what we did in the past few centuries in the present. Easy, pointless, and lazy.

So be honest, and pull the plank from your own eye before pulling the splinter from another's.

Tacky-Ass Rococco
Sep 6, 2010

by R. Guyovich


Guy Goodbody posted:

How do pro-Stalin tankies deal with Stalin's attempted assassinations of Josip Tito, or how Stalin didn't want Mao to completely win the civil war because he feared that would make Mao too powerful?

I've never heard about the latter, and would enjoy a source. But the answer, is, as always, Stalin Did Nothing Wrong.

Tacky-Ass Rococco
Sep 6, 2010

by R. Guyovich


cloudchamber posted:

Saw it last year and didn't like it as much as I thought I would. Aside from just generally not being particularly funny it gets a lot of history stuff wrong, which wouldn't be a problem if it wasn't misportraying things which make some people seem some of its characters seem far more innocent than they actually were. Michael Palin's Molotov is shown as being this sort of bumbling old dude (even though he didn't die until Gorbachev took over the USSR), and they suggest he's ignorant of the execution lists, despite his signature being on thousands of them.

Supposedly in actual history Malenkov was the smartest person in the room, too.

But it's a farce and a black comedy. Coming from someone who wants Mel Gibson shot for Braveheart, I thought it was very enjoyable.

Tacky-Ass Rococco
Sep 6, 2010

by R. Guyovich


Doctor Spaceman posted:

Jason Isaacs steals every scene he is in too.

I saw an interview where he said he didn't really research the character, but just played him as the biggest, swingingest dick possible. Good choice, actor.

Tacky-Ass Rococco
Sep 6, 2010

by R. Guyovich


R. Guyovich posted:

this doesn't mean it was perfect

Aside from being revisionist, in what respect was it not perfect?

No, seriously, I've heard you claim that when we build socialism in America we'll learn from past mistakes, but you've never mentioned the specific mistakes. Almost like you're wildly dishonest!

Tacky-Ass Rococco
Sep 6, 2010

by R. Guyovich


R. Guyovich posted:

the people in most of the former soviet republics (and many former eastern bloc states), when polled, have expressed a preference for the way things were under socialism. they actually lived it and weirdly, don't like the huge drop in life expectancy and employment that ensued after the collapse

People in Estonia wish they could live under communism again?

Tacky-Ass Rococco
Sep 6, 2010

by R. Guyovich


BrutalistMcDonalds posted:

I'd somehow doubt most Estonians would wish to return to it. The polling seems to vary quite a lot between countries, though, with some having majorities favoring the USSR, others not.

Yeah, I was just insulting Homework Explainer.

Granted that the Soviet empire crumbled really poorly and that a few more decades of economic stagnation (remember, HomeEx doesn’t care for revisionism, he’s a good Stalinist) might be preferable to Putin in Russia or the tin-pot dictators of Central Asia.

Tacky-Ass Rococco
Sep 6, 2010

by R. Guyovich



I have the video queued up to watch, but does it explain why China didn't suffer the same fate? Is it because China was still "developing" and didn't compare themselves as directly to the USA et al.?

Tacky-Ass Rococco
Sep 6, 2010

by R. Guyovich


Deceitful Penguin posted:

Uhh, because anyone more liberal than me is a liberal, anyone roughly as Commie as me that disagrees on something is a revisionist while someone who takes a more conservative stance than me on a subject is, of course, a reactionary.

This is elementary Marxism Comrade!

You forgot that everyone to the left of you is an ultra-leftist. To the gulag you go.

Tacky-Ass Rococco
Sep 6, 2010

by R. Guyovich


R. Guyovich posted:

but then this is your m.o., trundling into a thread (coincidentally right after i've posted in it!) and demanding i list grievances with socialist states, as if that's the real aim of your bad-faith questioning. then calling me dishonest for not engaging you

Uh, aren't you the one who trundled (good word choice btw) into this thread?

For what it's worth, I have no idea what my real aim is except for calling out a completely amoral person.

Tacky-Ass Rococco has a new favorite as of 03:27 on Apr 5, 2018

Tacky-Ass Rococco
Sep 6, 2010

by R. Guyovich


Unless I'm mistaken, I've been out of the tankie thread for some time, except for an ironic post about The Death of Stalin. Whereas I've been in the mock tankies thread since forever. Don't be so vain.

Tacky-Ass Rococco
Sep 6, 2010

by R. Guyovich


R. Guyovich posted:

i'm not trundling you're trundling

I mean, your premise was false on its face, but that's never stopped you before. That's why I love you.

Tacky-Ass Rococco
Sep 6, 2010

by R. Guyovich



Quality post.

Tacky-Ass Rococco
Sep 6, 2010

by R. Guyovich


R. Guyovich posted:

adequately responding to that huge list you tossed off would require an exponentially huger post, which would take a very long time for very little payoff, as i'd be expending a great deal of effort for a thread whose stated purpose is "lol tankies."

For someone with so little to say, you sure do love the sound of your own typing.

Tacky-Ass Rococco
Sep 6, 2010

by R. Guyovich


R. Guyovich posted:

so sorry to interrupt the snicker session. please continue with the high-quality thread of rationalwiki links and Funy Tweet

And you can go back to C-SPAM and continue to shitpost about how Stalin Did Nothing Wrong. Seems like an equitable solution!

Tacky-Ass Rococco
Sep 6, 2010

by R. Guyovich


Bryter posted:

I'm reliably informed that the US (for all its tremendous flaws) is perhaps as good as a democratic superpower could possibly be, and actually tries to give a poo poo about human rights and democracy. If even they have forced labour in their penal system, it seems unjustified to judge the Soviets too harshly for it!

Same, only with the implication reversed.

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Tacky-Ass Rococco
Sep 6, 2010

by R. Guyovich


steinrokkan posted:

The "troll modL is actually generally able to respond to criticism with thought out arguments and sourced claims when you respond to him in a way that warrants a dignified response.

Then you actually read the sources for his claims and the whole thing falls to pieces.

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