Register a SA Forums Account here!
JOINING THE SA FORUMS WILL REMOVE THIS BIG AD, THE ANNOYING UNDERLINED ADS, AND STUPID INTERSTITIAL ADS!!!

You can: log in, read the tech support FAQ, or request your lost password. This dumb message (and those ads) will appear on every screen until you register! Get rid of this crap by registering your own SA Forums Account and joining roughly 150,000 Goons, for the one-time price of $9.95! We charge money because it costs us $3,400 per month for bandwidth bills alone, and since we don't believe in shoving popup ads to our registered users, we try to make the money back through forum registrations.
«2 »
  • Post
  • Reply
Terrible Opinions
Oct 17, 2013


There sure were a whole lot of Stalinists and North Korea supporters in that thread. LF never died.

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

Terrible Opinions
Oct 17, 2013


I mean it's not wrong, you just need to understand the additional caveat that the middle of the horseshoe is apathy the exact thing that lets authoritarians win.

Terrible Opinions
Oct 17, 2013


divabot's comment on communists is unrelated to the previous two on identity politics. Castro just died and apologists are coming out of the woodwork.

Terrible Opinions
Oct 17, 2013


Josef bugman posted:

The answer to that is complex and multi-faceted. The short answer is, somewhat unsurprisingly, yes yes they are. The longer answer is that, whilst that may be so that still doesn't prevent a lot of the implementation of things that are supposed to fight societal problems by attacking the rich don't actually make life better for people of colour or minorities and in some extreme cases dick them over entirely.

It's also a problem when it comes to women being involved in any far left movement. A lot of people go "well you'll be free of patriarchy once the revolution comes" and it either a) Doesn't come and you just get ground down worse or b) The revolution does occur, but it's decided that other aspects of it are more important to fight "right now" and your section just gets kept at the back of the line for any change whilst everything else becomes more "important".
That's like half the problem plaguing the US left. The other half being people whose primary concerns are racial issues putting off economic concerns because racial/gender issues are the thing that needs to be handled "right now". There is a false dichotomy that is pitting the left against itself.

Terrible Opinions
Oct 17, 2013


Bryter posted:

They're not exactly marginalised in the way the term "minority group" implies.
BINGO!!!!!!

Judge I need a new scorecard.

Terrible Opinions
Oct 17, 2013


Don Gato posted:

Invaded and brutally repressed Tibet. Drove the Dali Lama out into exile. Began the process of trying to erase Tibetan identity. Brutally repressed the Uighurs in Xinjiang. Obviously it isnt imperialism when he did it.
Well you see it's not Imperialism because Tibet was controlled by reactionaries. Every tanky argument will eventually boil down to "they use the flag I like". It's why they avoid any mention of China's invasion of Vietnam.

Terrible Opinions
Oct 17, 2013


Deceitful Penguin posted:

Lol, you can be defensive all you like but Americans have been at this for a while; from "Octroroon" to "POC" and errything inbetween.

Discussing how ~white~ Stalin was is a discussion that would never happen anywhere else but the US or by those influenced by it unless they were like, white nationalists or some poo poo
Octoroon was a French term.

Terrible Opinions
Oct 17, 2013


During the First Balkan War, some of the children ran to see what Greek soldiers looked like. ‘‘What are you looking at?’’ one of them asked. ‘‘At Hellenes,’’ the children replied. ‘‘Are you not Hellenes yourselves?’’ a soldier retorted. ‘‘No, we are Romans."

Terrible Opinions
Oct 17, 2013


Communism as a whole quite definitely, but Stalin specifically?

Terrible Opinions
Oct 17, 2013


Given the sort of things that got people in trouble for "hoarding" in the other allied nations during WW2 I can't imagine the Stalinist USSR was particularly choosy about who was killed for "hoarding".

Terrible Opinions
Oct 17, 2013


I think the real deal here is letting Stalin off the hook in order to defend the honor of communism is a bad look no matter how you slice the specific numbers.

Terrible Opinions
Oct 17, 2013


There was still a continuous exportation of what little food was produced in the Ukraine throughout the Holodomor. It was as deliberate in its killing as the English landlords' extermination of the Irish during the potato famine, which is to say very deliberate.

Terrible Opinions
Oct 17, 2013


BrutalistMcDonalds posted:

Wasn't that occurring throughout the Soviet Union, though? The Holodomor is the idea that Stalin set out to intentionally destroy Ukraine as a nation in a campaign of deliberate murder via famine.
My point is that applying the same quotas to an area that was suffering from a significantly worse famine than the rest of the empire and then not modifying anything when that became apparent means that you're deliberately killing people. It doesn't matter if at the initial genesis you didn't think about how many people you were killing. It's like claiming that Leopold didn't intentionally kill all those Congolese, he just really wanted that rubber.

If you wanna keep Hitler at a cut above the rest because his only goal was racial termination that's fine, but if you're trying to claim that Stalin wasn't doing his killing intentionally you're going to have to excuse Leopold, Pol Pot, Jackson, etc because oh they wanted some other material thing and it just so happened that the method amounted to genocide. Leopold really wanted that rubber, Pol Pot really thought all university educated people were subversive spies, and Jackson just wanted some land for America.

Terrible Opinions
Oct 17, 2013


I can't tell if they're claiming Staling was trans or if they dislike cis being used as a descriptor.

Terrible Opinions
Oct 17, 2013


Pope Guilty posted:

To be fair that's a feature of virtually every version of Marxism-Leninism. The only real communists are Marxists, the only real Marxists are Leninists, the only real Marxist-Leninists are [my tendency], the only real Marxist-Leninist-[founder of my tendency]ists are [members of my cadre]...
I love how close this is to how Evangelicals and other sorts of Fundies define Christianity.

Terrible Opinions
Oct 17, 2013


Edgar Allen Ho posted:

Episcopalians/anglicans would like a word with you.
I mean usually people don't include demi-Catholics when they say Protestant.

Terrible Opinions
Oct 17, 2013


Mussolini's private personal train-car always ran on time, which of course massively disrupted every other train because it wasn't scheduled properly.

Terrible Opinions
Oct 17, 2013


Bryter posted:

Yeah, whenever data was handed over by defectors it would generally line up with what had been publicly released and with western intelligence estimates. Which makes sense: the idea that a centrally planned state could survive as long as the USSR did while relying on some potemkin statistical reporting operation seems implausible
And yet China managed.

Terrible Opinions
Oct 17, 2013


Well any imperialist country is going to be worse off without the resources of its subjects.

Terrible Opinions
Oct 17, 2013


MizPiz posted:

It was mostly because it was being looted by The Imperialist Country
Oh I'm sure that doesn't help either. Though you missed a word there. It's "the Other Imperialist Country" when referring to the United States.

Terrible Opinions
Oct 17, 2013


I mean a gun will quite deftly protect you from one nazi wanting you dead. Problem comes from a nazi institution wanting you dead.

Terrible Opinions
Oct 17, 2013


It's still kinda a raw deal to apply it to an individual person when for a poor which side you were on was determined a lot more by geographic location and ethnicity rather than ideology. Now if his parents were rich then yeah it's fair, but I don't know this particular rando.

Terrible Opinions
Oct 17, 2013


Ghost Leviathan posted:

America already has gulags. They're called prisons.
But isn't the point of being involved in politics to build a better society, not simply replicate another lovely one but with a different flag?

Terrible Opinions
Oct 17, 2013


Perry Mason Jar posted:

I know what I said.
You just happened to sound a lot like the "where is the physical evidence of the gas chambers" guys.

Terrible Opinions
Oct 17, 2013


A death rate significantly higher than US prisons is not somehow fine. No country anywhere should have a prison system as terrible as the United States.

Terrible Opinions
Oct 17, 2013


It's comparable to death rates in American Civil War prisoner of war camps (12% for northern camps and 16% for southern), which in the south were straight up concentration camps.

Terrible Opinions
Oct 17, 2013


Perry Mason Jar if it's what you need I am more than willing to publicly state that the gulags weren't as bad as Nazi concentration camps, they weren't as bad as the rubber farms in the Congo Free State, they weren't bad as the British camps in the Boer War. However that is an exceptionally low bar to pass. Additionally your continued insistence that they weren't that bad or your implications that everything bad about them was made up is more or less identical to the rhetoric of holocaust deniers.

Terrible Opinions
Oct 17, 2013


It's specifically statements like this.

Perry Mason Jar posted:

The best argument against Gulag Horror is everything after the dissolution of the USSR. Where were the mass of newly released political prisoners? The mass graves? The testimonials?
Which is more or less the same claim Holocaust deniers make now that it's been seventy+ years and most survivors are dead simply due to age.

Terrible Opinions
Oct 17, 2013


Creamed Cormp posted:

oh so this discussion was about gender issues all along? why didn't you bring this up before, I thought you were arguing in favor of fake rights like "freedom of speech" or "property rights".

I feel silly now.
No this whole thing started when you got offended by the word fun and for some reason assumed it was said in support of capitalism.

Terrible Opinions
Oct 17, 2013


In context they were making fun of Greeves, who hates all joy including quite explicitly orgasms.

Terrible Opinions
Oct 17, 2013


Terrible Opinions
Oct 17, 2013


A Typical Goon posted:

And what's your opinion regarding Churchill and the 43 Bengal famine? Or how about the Irish potato famine? Were those genocides too ?
The Irish Potato Famine was pretty much the definition of capitalist motivated genocide.

That's the difference between this argument and claiming it wasn't the German government but Typhus that killed all those Jews in the 1930s and 1940s?

Terrible Opinions
Oct 17, 2013


While comparing the actual purpose of each is disingenuous, comparing the method by which their defenders deny wrongdoing is not.

"There was already a famine" in Holodomor denial is more or less word for word the same as "there was a Typhus epidemic" in Holocaust denial. Similarly all of Khan's points amount to the standard Holocaust denial tactics of saying there was a pool at Auschwitz or similar technically true bit of information that is completely irreverent to any argument you are attempting to build.

Terrible Opinions
Oct 17, 2013


So was W.E.B. DuBois's whole back to Africa thing as imperialist as it sounds?

Terrible Opinions
Oct 17, 2013


Bryter posted:

DuBois was critical of Garvey and the back to Africa movement
You're right I got the two of them confused. Apologies.

Terrible Opinions
Oct 17, 2013


German perfectionism leading to no viable tank production was a godsend to the USSR.

Terrible Opinions
Oct 17, 2013


steinrokkan posted:

90% of German tanks were perfectly viable (everything before Panther, and Panthers did work too, if they got to the front)
Sorry for wording, I was specifically stating that their production line was never viable. There was always so much retuning and minute changes between each tank produced that production at scale was effectively impossible once anything started going wrong for them at all.

Terrible Opinions
Oct 17, 2013


steinrokkan posted:

Russia did extremely well by not being invited to Versailles, losing territory and getting invaded by its former allies - as probably the second most important fighting nation on the Detente side? Yes, there was a revolution that changed things, but that doesn't mean the new government had to like how it was treated. And don't pretend Poland was created as some boon for Russia, lol. On the net, Russia was a massive loser of WWI.
Why would someone who accepted a separate peace for a war they started get a say at the end negotiating table?

Terrible Opinions
Oct 17, 2013


steinrokkan posted:

Why was France considered an Allied power in 1945? Netherlands, Belgium, Norway? It sure is convenient to argue that because a country was forced to sign a separate peace (because it fought on your side until it literally imploded), it deserves to be treated as an enemy.
Vichy France, the guys who surrendered were not at the negotiating table following WW2. Philippe Pétain was convicted of treason. As for the Netherlands, Belgium, and Norway they had no real negotiating weight at the table.

steinrokkan posted:

Anyway, whatever you think about that war and the decisions made in it, the fact that Russia bore the brunt of the conflict (in sheer amount of human suffering) in a capitalist war, and then was victimized for abandoning the regime that caused led to that, did inform Communist decision making for obvious reasons. I guess they should have been more enlightened and think "Hm, it's only fair that we should get punished even more for overthrowing the tzarist regime that brought us to our knees. It's important above all to maintain continuity."
No one's arguing that capitalists weren't lovely to the USSR. It's the specifically trying to frame WW1 as somehow a great betrayal of Russia, when it was ultimately the tsar got them into the mess in the first place. Why would anyone care what a new country who already bowed out of the conflict wanted?

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

Terrible Opinions
Oct 17, 2013


Killingyouguy! posted:

in practice it's more like 'i don't like it when you acknowledge that the sex industry is as much a part of capitalism as any other and therefore inherently exploitative because that's not very girl power so i'm gonna call you a swerf'
Found the SWERF.

For real though SWERF is almost always a legitimate thing to call someone, because it's supposed feminists who support denying healthcare or other protections to women who are involved with sex work. Which like most work is inherently exploitative but being SWERFs they want to punish the workers instead of the system that caused them.

  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • Post
  • Reply
«2 »