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Baka-nin
Jan 25, 2015



Ugly In The Morning posted:

Jesus, who looks at either the Khmer Rouge regime, or Jim Jones, and goes “yep, I want to emulate that”? Let alone both at the same time.

Sad thing is Ive come to realise that while Pol Potists exist in tiny numbers, the reason they're so marginal is less to do with the horrific crimes of the Khmer Rouge finally being a bridge too far and more because after the Viet army went in Pol Pot took aid from the west.

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Baka-nin
Jan 25, 2015



Neo_Crimson posted:

Does this count as tankie, or just stupid:

EDIT: The people screenshotted in the tweet.

https://twitter.com/dreamingnoctis/...3987807232?s=20

Eh could be one of a dozen different socialist or marxist sects. I'd say based on popularity that those people would probably be what's known as "dirtbag" leftists, which is mostly social democrat. Or they could just be straight up neo-fash who haven't realised it yet, or do so they're being defensive.

Baka-nin
Jan 25, 2015



Expect to hear a lot more about Grover Furr on the lefty social media's, I was in several very active and large discord groups affiliated with "Bread tube" and almost overnight most of them got into Grover Furr and were lapping up his work. Not surprisingly this also coincided with most of the vocal members pivoting to the USSR good. I recognise a couple of them hanging around that proletariat rising guy.

Baka-nin
Jan 25, 2015



divabot posted:

as the guy who wrote a bit of that Stalin apologetics article, my precise thought on the Daniel Buntovnik tweet was "hmm, material for a Grover Furr article?"

the tankies haven't been ranting about RationalWiki nearly enough lately, we need them calling us "liberals" again as if we wouldn't just go "... yes?"

(realistically there is very little chance i will ever get around to this, anyone else here who can write coherent cited sentences on a wiki is heartily invited to hit "edit" and do so HEY TINTOWER LOOKING AT YOU)

I'm afraid I don't have the experience to help out, but if someone would like to add more to Furr -and I think its worth doing giving how he's growing in popularity- it'd be worth bringing up his close connections to holocaust deniers and the Russian far right.

https://twitter.com/d_k_buntovnik/s...461652749275143

Baka-nin
Jan 25, 2015



Pharohman777 posted:

Solidarnosc is the polish name for the trade union that ended communist rule in Poland and reinstated a democracy.
The union that the communist regime opposed and persecuted constantly.

Yeah, but this fellow is partly right that Solidarity is also extremely right wing and Catholic (but then the Catholic church was also closely entangled with the Polish People's Republic) and is very hostile and virtually every polish acquaintance I have from the former secretary of the Anarcho-syndicalist international to some queer exchange students blame its dominance in the post 89 transition as a major factor for why modern Poland is the way it is. Currently its still very close to the Catholic church and the law and justice party.

Interestingly the UK far right British National Party actively tried to build links with Solidarnosc and called its tiny and short live union affiliate Solidarity to ape it.

The part about it being a creation of the Americans is wrong though, there is no way it could survive for so many years of repression without genuine mass support, at worst it was a case of the US supporting a pre-existing group they hoped would turn into a major opposition movement. They also failed to alert Solidarnosc to the 1981 martial law crackdown, which got quite a few of them killed. Western Europe was also a major financial backer of the PPR and Thatcher also had very good relations with Poland's Cold War military dictator General Jaruzelski. During the miners strike Poland sold tonnes of cheap coal to the UK to help the Conservative government (which had invested and loaned a lot to them) to break the strike. Meanwhile Solidarnosc was still in touch with its roots enough to publicly support the strike, even though Scargill had denounced them.

Baka-nin
Jan 25, 2015



Julius CSAR posted:

The Soviet Union and how they treated the people of Poland, both then and historically, is 100% worse than any of this whatabout garbage.

At no point in the text you're quoting do I equate solidarnosc with the PPR, wind your neck in pal.

Baka-nin
Jan 25, 2015



Aren't the increases in height amongst Japanese, Chinese and South Korean populations in the 20th century usually explained as a result of changing diets as global food trends replace traditional food stuffs? The Netherlands usually wins the highest average height polls in Europe, but I don't think their economy is usually ranked in first place.

Baka-nin
Jan 25, 2015



Josef bugman posted:

That'd be a bit odd considering how "new world" food stuffs made it to Korea back in the 1700/1800's.

That's not what I was talking about. The common claim for the trend for increasing average height in east Asia is credited on the popularisation of protein rich "western" diets, more meat and cows milk, and increased availability of local foods that are also high in protein but used to be prohibitively expensive. The US used to top world trends in physical stature when it enjoyed vast quantities of very cheap protein rich foods and is currently showing signs of decline in average heights at a time when its poverty rates are getting much worse and this has lead to much poorer nutrition amongst many segments of its population.

Baka-nin has a new favorite as of 08:48 on May 2, 2020

Baka-nin
Jan 25, 2015



OwlFancier posted:

Isn't WPGB george galloway's new grift that he launched with the CPGB(ML)?

So it's tankies arguing with each other.

It is indeed, also the same crew who were loudly trying to dominate the "Lexit" camp and called on the proletariat of Britain to vote for Nigel Farage's UKIP like candidates.

Baka-nin
Jan 25, 2015



Continuity RCP posted:

Events in the former Yugoslav republics broke some ostensibly leftist brains


Nah, the RCP was already well on its way from fringe Trotskyist cult to become a Libertarian (as in American don't tread on me, and education is a government plot libertarian) cult by the time Yugoslavia broke up. In the 80s they were rubbishing the idea that heterosexuals could contract AIDs and have been anti condom well into the 90s. I've also read articles in their paper that supported whaling, fox hunting and downplayed domestic abuse rates, as well as their infamous articles accusing ITN of making up the very real allegations of murder and sexual assault at Serb controlled concentration camps.

They're also still around, they just ditched the socialist buzz words and have built a small media empire in the UK with Sp!ked Online being their biggest hit today.

Baka-nin
Jan 25, 2015



Continuity RCP posted:

This is making fun of tankie anti imperialists. The presence of Putin and Sukarno should probably have tipped you off. Sukarno $2 Lenin $1 lol

Eh, I've seen dozens of Tankie groups make official propaganda praising both and even worse, the real tip off that this is making fun off them is the money gimmick, as it lowers these noble warriors to the level of trading cards and Gacha games.

Baka-nin
Jan 25, 2015



about time they started fact checking

Baka-nin
Jan 25, 2015



WeedlordGoku69 posted:

while what happened to the romanov kids is pretty unquestionably horrifying, it also seems fairly obvious that if you have a revolution that involves murdering a tyrannical leader, and then you don't do anything about that leader's family or children, you're basically setting yourself up for the new government to be hosed in the rear end within a couple decades when one of those kids becomes an adult and suddenly has an arguably-legitimate claim to your seat of power, along with a personal grudge against you.

meanwhile, getting the whole family in a room and offing them all, while ethically abominable, more or less nips that in the bud.

e: like, i'm honestly kinda torn on that just because it seems like a choice between being a monster or being an idiot. you kill them all, you're a monster who murdered innocent children; you just kill the Tsar, you're instead an idiot who just created ongoing opposition that is very, very unlikely to go away quietly. neither option is exactly fantastic.

The Bourbon monarchy was restored even after the main line was extinguished. Dynasties are not nuclear families and there were already hundreds of Romanovs free in Western Europe who would have been more than willing to be the new Tsar. No one bothered to ask them. And if they had somehow managed to murder the hundreds of Romanovs in existence there were many more noble houses in the Russian Empire to fill that role.

Even the Whites official political organisation was a republican group and their deaths made no impact on the war. Hell even the Black Hundreds the racist bands that were created solely to keep Nicky in power had publicly renounced him in the aftermath of the February revolution.

Baka-nin
Jan 25, 2015



System Metternich posted:

So what's the weirdest far left (or "far left") group you know of that's still extant (and ideally comprises more people than just one dude with a blog)? I'm thinking of the Initiative Sozialistisches Forum together with the Bahamas magazine which together form the most radical wing of the anti-German movement in Germany. They advocate the abolition of the German nation, are radically pro-Israel, pro-US, pro-Serbia and anti-Muslim and after looking at some of the Bahamas articles that are available online it seems that there at least certain subcurrents that toy with neo-Thomism, climate change denial, economic neoliberalism and maybe even the theories of the deeply reactionary Abendlšndische Bewegung of the 50s and 60s... so yeah, they're basically fash in denial I guess

Avakian's outfit, hard to beat a maoist offshoot that ran its own conversion sessions on queer youths who made the mistake of joining its youth wing. And whose so delusional they rent out cinema's to screen 6-8 hour off the cuff rambles by their leader, living in "exile" in a posh Paris suburb. Oh and who once thought it'd be a good idea to recruit at Burning Man. Sadly they're still a thing and have been busy trying to recruit out of the Black Lives Matter protests through their fronts.

https://libcom.org/tags/revolutiona...unist-party-usa

Baka-nin
Jan 25, 2015



Pretty sure the People's Temple had a wrap party a few years ago.

Baka-nin
Jan 25, 2015



I've met like half a dozen of their 100- members over the years. They're very petty and cult like in their ways. I once asked them how their party planned to keep its mps loyal to the cause since every other workers party that got some traction had its parliamentary squad become a new leadership and then sell out, and their response was to cite an old Saxon custom for advisers to the chieftain. Also I found out the guy they built their party around employed children in his factories.

Baka-nin
Jan 25, 2015



What's really daft about this whole "North Korea is actually totally pro gay, here's a paragraph about Don't ask don't tell on a nationwide basis to prove it" is they've taken that from a section of the Korean Friendship Association, the nerds who run those North Korea tours. Only that section was taken down years ago, the only way they had found it in the first place was by going through the wayback machine. Even if it was a good point being made, its erasure would show that its no longer the case.

Baka-nin
Jan 25, 2015



System Metternich posted:

There are liturgically conservative Catholics who still identify as politically (and in many cases socially too) left. There are not many of them, but they exist and are what I would call tradcath left

Different topic: Because of BLM there has been additional focus in Germany on historical figures and their racist and/or antisemitic attitudes, including Hegel, Engels and Marx with especially the latter writing some really vile stuff in his letters. Is there any sign of tankies even acknowledging that?

I don't know about right now, but for months the Tankies were trying to pass Marx off as non-white, and also since Stalin was from the Caucasus he was Asian and therefore its awfully racist that he gets so much criticism. To be fair though this is an area all none tankie types of Marxists have struggled with for along time too. Just even mentioning it seems to draw out all the socdems, trots, ultras and leftcoms to lecture on how its just a sign of the times, or the logic of Hegelianism, and its not really a problem that Marx and Engels called Marx's own son in law an animal who belongs in a zoo because he had a mixed background, and it isn't really an issue that their historical analysis shows both the inevitable triumph of the international proletariat and the inevitable decline of the Slavic people's as superior Germanic culture spread and grew.

Even the one's who make a show of saying "I agree with the analysis, not the men" types in my experience have been just as touchy and defensive.

Baka-nin
Jan 25, 2015



Paladinus posted:

It was literally illegal (for men) to have gay sex in USSR since 1934, and could land you in prison for up to five years.

Actually that was in the Russian and western republics of the USSR, it was illegal for men to engage in same sex activities in some of the other Soviet republics. And even in the RSFSR homosexuals and other gender non conformists experienced severe police surveillance and intimidation.
http://libcom.org/blog/notes-soviet...uality-03042018

Dan Healey the sexologist who is often cited dishonestly by tankies and Stalinists and Leninists when they want to brag about the soviet union's early progressive years explains this as essentially a product of racism by the leadership of the Soviet Union. In the "European" parts of the Union homosexuality was the product of bourgeois influences, and since the bourgeoisie were on the out the problem would correct itself. Meanwhile in the Asian parts homosexuality was the product of backwards primitive cultures, so strict (even stricter than the 1934 law) powers were needed their to correct them.

Plastic_Gargoyle posted:

There were at least a few among the Bolsheviks who genuinely believed something to this effect.

The only times Lenin ever addressed the sex question, he basically said the correct proletarian way to have sex was for reproductive purposes with sex for pleasure being bourgeois, or anarchistic.

"The demand for free love, Lenin states ,"is not a proletarian demand but a bourgeois one".
"It has got more to do with the objective logic of class relations,than with subjective fondness and aspirations."
2.*Letter from 27.January 1915*

Of course this didn't stop him from having a mistress.

Baka-nin
Jan 25, 2015



Pope Guilty posted:

I am the very model of an online Marxist-Leninist
My enemies are anarchists and Ess-Jay-Dub degenerates
I know the crimes of capital and for my turn I cannot wait
To threaten random workers on the internet, I stay up late

I'm very well-acquainted, too, with matters dialectical
though I prefer my fantasies to anything material
About the Uyghur genocide I toe the Jinping party line
it isn't really happening but also it is very fine

Defending a dictatorship, I like to help out where I can
Imperial expansion's good unless it is American
My org has split a dozen times whenever somebody gets pissed
I am the very model of an online Marxist-Leninist!



Also I'm stealing this.


Ghost Leviathan posted:

The Root is its own kind of terrible, mind.

I heard Nation of Islam is basically a black franchise of Scientology, though that might be just comparison. Quite a few racist conspiracy theories and pseudoscience seem to have script-flipped versions for black americans.

The founder of NOI did know L Ron Hubbard before he discovered his own revelations. Malcolm X's autobiography is very interesting given it took years to write and he made the conscious decision not to retroactively edit or update the early parts. So you get passages showing how and why a cult like the NoI would be appealing to a black man living in America, followed by his denunciations of its practises and abuse and exposure of its theological nonsense with lamentations over how he fell for it all for so long.

Baka-nin
Jan 25, 2015




Brilliant, may I use this in low effort videos?

Making crude videos that annoy twitter tankies is what keeps me going in this troubled times.

Baka-nin
Jan 25, 2015



Shared it with some friends and they now want a full musical. "The MLs of Penzance; A slave to dictators"

Baka-nin
Jan 25, 2015



Continuity RCP posted:

most of them are harmless but some of them (Individuals Tending towards the Wild) enjoy murdering random women and leaving bombs lying around

Ted Kaczynski was a primitivist but he wasn't an anarchist, he actually resented being associated with them by the wider public and included many of his arguments against anarchism in several of his manifestos and letters to try and stop people calling him one. The majority of primitivists in the wild (heh) have no connection at all to anarchism or are actively hostile to it. Even the handful of anprims (zerzan and co) that do exist got that way from reading dissident Marxist crank Cammattes writings. A man so committed to hating bourgeois society that he has given up bathing. No that isn't a joke I know people who went to the town in France he lives in and they could smell him coming towards them.

Baka-nin
Jan 25, 2015



If you're genuinely curious what anarcho-primitivism is you should probably look up John Zerzan, he's the only real thinker to come out of it, the rest usually cited aren't anarchists or are students of him. I don't care for most of his ideas and I don't even like the way he writes. But to his credit he does largely agree with many of the common criticisms of primitivism. He thinks a mass die off of most of the population is a bad thing so doesn't support that, and he doesn't believe humanity should ditch all technology, he thinks the problem is how industrial technology is used and controlled is the problem. He's open to beneficial technology being maintained so long as its compatible with his preferred organisation of society. Basically he's a primitivist because he thinks industrial society is the source of most of the problems, and he's an anarchist because he thinks just pulling the plug and going back into the woods would just replace them with even more problems. How well he balances the two is debatable. He and the anprims (who aren't just misanthropes on the net) I've encountered don't think "tech=bad" its more like "capitalism makes tech = destructive, harmful and bad with few exceptions".

He has also publicly criticised other primitivists and environmentalists for bigotry, sexism and transphobia. https://eugeneweekly.com/2018/03/02...derrick-jensen/

Baka-nin
Jan 25, 2015



Gen. Ripper posted:

Remind me again what the White Helmets are and why tankies are obsessed with them?

A group of first responders in Syria, they pull people out of rubble and risk bombs and bullets to get civilians life saving medical treatment. Ben Norton and his followers accused them of being Al-Qaeda because for some reason they aren't in favour of the Assad regime that's dropping most of the bombs on civilian areas.

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Baka-nin
Jan 25, 2015



The thing about "they didn't invade, they intervened to support the legitimate government against an unlawful rebellion!" that's even weaker than typical imperialist apologia is that it isn't even true. In the big Soviet military interventions Hungary, Czechoslovakia and Afghanistan, the governments were all pro the Soviet Union, and yet the Soviet army attacked and replaced those governments anyway. Murdering the Afghan central committee was the first act of the Soviet intervention, they didn't start fighting the Afghan rebels until after replacing the government by force. Imre Nagy was executed, Dubcek was the lucky one, he was only briefly arrested by the soviet army before given a demotion and then an expulsion to work in the forestry commission. Amin was killed by the Soviet Commandos he called for help from, and then they murdered every male in his family and rounded up the women and put them in prison. They wouldn't get out until 1992.

Like here's an eyewitness account of the first day of the Soviet intervention in Afghanistan

https://youtu.be/hjs_TFvfdGY
Everyone who gets killed, arrested, threatened or even poisoned was a loyal member of the DRA government and usually a longstanding member of the PDPA, and they still get thrown down the stairs while artillery and armoured cars shoot up the nice palace they just finished building to show their friends in the Soviet Union.

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