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kingturnip posted:I think the problem I have with the idea that the burka - or the niqab or even hijab - is a symbol of oppression is that it's an idea that removes any semblance of choice on the part of the woman. How do you feel about the concept of internalized oppression?
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Sep 1, 2016 12:44
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kingturnip posted:I think the problem I have with the idea that the burka - or the niqab or even hijab - is a symbol of oppression is that it's an idea that removes any semblance of choice on the part of the woman. Since it's a poll I wasn't really thinking of hardcore campaigners really, more along the lines of your well-meaning aunt who sees someone in a full burka and says "that must be pretty horrible for her to be trapped in that thing all day, maybe we should do something about it?" You can swing someone like that very quickly just by informing them about it, and there really is very little public knowledge about the burka. People understand halal meat much better for instance, so while there is extensive support for ensuring that halal slaughter correctly includes pre-stunning and that the meat is labelled, only the BNP are calling for an outright ban. Obviously you won't sway the racist contingent, I'm just hoping that the numbers would come down a lot if people knew that the majority of women wearing the burka do so willingly and that there are better ways of targeting men who would force them.
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Sep 1, 2016 12:57
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Earlier I found out another way those bloody Poles flout and ignore our Beautiful British Laws right under our very noses. Polish shops don't charge for carrier bags
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Sep 1, 2016 13:06
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I can't get enough of are Dan
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HJB posted:Earlier I found out another way those bloody Poles flout and ignore our Beautiful British Laws right under our very noses. I strongly suspect the people who hate the Polish also hate paying for carrier bags.
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Sep 1, 2016 13:09
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I think you don't have to charge for carrier bags of your shop has fewer than x number of employees - possibly 250.
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Sep 1, 2016 13:11
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250 employed at the business, not at the individual shop. It is a stupid exception that not even the FSB wanted. And there's no legal compulsion for shopkeepers who don't hate the planet to not voluntarily charge
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Sep 1, 2016 13:18
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Oberleutnant posted:I think you don't have to charge for carrier bags of your shop has fewer than x number of employees - possibly 250. Yeah small shops dont have charge I cant remember how small shops are defined.
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Sep 1, 2016 13:18
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The carrier bag thing is the most British law ever. Who pays it? Commoners. What good cause does the money go to? Sainsburys.
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Sep 1, 2016 13:19
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nopantsjack posted:The carrier bag thing is the most British law ever. Who pays it? Commoners. What good cause does the money go to? Sainsburys. I thought it was the implementation of an EU directive, and that money raised from sales of carrier bags went to charities?
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Sep 1, 2016 13:23
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nopantsjack posted:The carrier bag thing is the most British law ever. Who pays it? Commoners. What good cause does the money go to? Sainsburys. The British charges were copied the idea from the many other countries that did it first. Everyone pays equally; common or posh. The supermarket chains all donate the cash to chairty instead of keeping for their own benefit to placate whiners like you. You're an idiot.
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Sep 1, 2016 13:24
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radmonger posted:I unironically think it would be a good idea if there was a name for the political group that considers Labour either ireedamably compromised, or at least in need of destroying and recreating, but also wants nothing to do with Marx, Lenin, Trotsky and co. Well comrade, there is a group that are covered by that. It's called anarchism & I recommend you give it a try. Also, it's kind of bogus to include Marx in here. Marx had good ideas, even if the whole "scientific socialism" line was patently bollocks & just way to try & differentiate himself from his forebears like Saint-Simon. Kropotkin also fell in for that whole line a bit much, though there's still some good stuff in Mutual Aid, he totally over-estimated the evolutionary causes/justification (I'm not a biologist & can't think of a better word) of mutual aid. Alternatively, if you want Labour destroyed & want nothing to do with any 19th century socialist thinkers then the ideology you are looking for is "liberalism". In which case if you could just stand in front of this wall and put on this blindfold, our firing squad will be here to deal with your request at the first available moment.
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Sep 1, 2016 13:24
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nopantsjack posted:The carrier bag thing is the most British law ever. Who pays it? Commoners. What good cause does the money go to? Sainsburys. Maybe it's good for the environment? http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-35013520 The BBC posted:Tesco plastic bag use 'down 80%' since 5p charge
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Sep 1, 2016 13:24
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Libluini posted:Couldn't the makers of "burkinis" just re-brand them as female wetsuits to circumvent all laws against them? Or would the idiots in charge just double down and arrest every diver they see? Thus begins the great purging of our time, the advent of SEA PATROL.
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Sep 1, 2016 13:24
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nopantsjack posted:What good cause does the money go to? Sainsburys. Well Sainsbury's aren't actually part of this scheme - they replaced their bags with more expensive bags for life, which means (among other things) they don't have to publicly disclose the amount they give to charity (which shops are requested to do, but not obligated - Asda, Waitrose, Morrisons all donate all the 5p, Tesco 3p, and according to the Grauniad Sainsbury's... 1p) radmonger posted:I unironically think it would be a good idea if there was a name for the political group that considers Labour either ireedamably compromised, or at least in need of destroying and recreating, but also wants nothing to do with Marx, Lenin, Trotsky and co. There are plenty of reasonable, positive looking, communists (well, "plenty") but they get rather drowned out by the noisy idiots blowfish posted:yeah but emboldened fascists != created more fascists, you merely notice them more because their shittiness is on full display now It can do both
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Sep 1, 2016 13:33
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Anarcho-syndicalism is cool and good.
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Sep 1, 2016 13:35
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StoneOfShame posted:Anarcho-syndicalism is cool and good. Anarcho-syndicalists still use Marx a lot. Post-left anarchists on the other hand are shitheads with absolutely nothing interesting to say, and are essentially the Blairites of anarchism.
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Sep 1, 2016 13:37
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khwarezm posted:How do you feel about the concept of internalized oppression?  Gonzo McFee posted:That T-shirt looks like a flaccid willy hanging ominously over a foetus. e: WhiskeyWhiskers posted:Blairites of anarchism.
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Sep 1, 2016 13:39
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WhiskeyWhiskers posted:Anarcho-syndicalists still use Marx a lot. Post-left anarchists on the other hand are shitheads with absolutely nothing interesting to say, and are essentially the Blairites of anarchism. Oh absolutely the point of separation from the more traditional Marxist groups would be the idea that a state can never exist to support the workers it will always support itself, I agree with this. Guavanaut posted:Worst name for a punk band. With a name like that I think you're destiny as band is post punk shittiness. StoneOfShame fucked around with this message at 14:02 on Sep 1, 2016 |
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Sep 1, 2016 13:59
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During both the bag charge and smoking ban, I lived in Scotland and had family in England and was surprised by how quickly it became the norm for me and seeing people in England smoking in pubs or using a hundred lovely bags was weird and very annoying.nopantsjack posted:The carrier bag thing is the most British law ever. Who pays it? Commoners. What good cause does the money go to? Sainsburys. Oh no, 5p! And I used four bags, that's 20p! An amount I would't pick up if I saw on the ground! Buy a hessian bag for £2, it's way nicer to use and will last years.
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Sep 1, 2016 14:04
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Love Like Blood posted:These albums are all great. British punk is having a bit of a renaissance as well, maybe it's 6 years of horrific tory rule. Autonomads, Atterkop, The Sporadics, Pale Angels, Bangers, Wonk Unit, Spanner, Luvdump, Oi Polloi, Slaves & Sleaford Mods have all put out great albums recently. I have some bad news about Bangers Their last gig was a week and a half ago It's ok though because new Apologies, I Have None came out and it is incredible
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Sep 1, 2016 14:08
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The 5p charge is good and bad because it does great things for the environment and shows that the British public will take it as a personal insult at having to pay an extra 20p of tax on their £70 shop.
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Sep 1, 2016 14:08
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bitterandtwisted posted:Oh no, 5p! And I used four bags, that's 20p! An amount I would't pick up if I saw on the ground! Look at this rich fucker who wouldn't pick 20p up of the floor, practically rolling in it, to the gulag.
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Sep 1, 2016 14:13
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There was 20p on the floor of the gym yesterday and I forgot to pick it up 
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Sep 1, 2016 14:14
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bitterandtwisted posted:Buy a hessian bag for £2, it's way nicer to use and will last years. Apparently the explosion in popularity of Jute for bags and other "eco" products is now driving deforestation and desertification in countries like Nepal, Madagascar and others. Also - Rwanda, managed to totally ban plastic bags over 8 years ago, they didn't even do any pussyfooting with charging 5 Rwandan Francs or any bullshit like that, didn't endlessly pat themselves on the back for being so eco, just recognised that they were a bad thing that made their country look like a rubbish tip and banned them. Rwanda for fucks sakes. ReelBigLizard fucked around with this message at 14:28 on Sep 1, 2016 |
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Sep 1, 2016 14:22
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ReelBigLizard posted:Apparently the explosion in popularity of Jute for bags and other "eco" products is now driving deforestation and desertification in countries like Nepal, Madagascar and others. Maybe the only way for us as humans to not ruin the planet is to all kill ourselves
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Sep 1, 2016 14:23
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If you ban burqas, do you think the men forcing women to wear them will just go "welp, I guess you can leave the house like a normal person now, nothing I can do", or will it just result in these women not even being allowed to leave the house in the first place?
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Sep 1, 2016 14:24
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Gonzo McFee posted:The 5p charge is good and bad because it does great things for the environment and shows that the British public will take it as a personal insult at having to pay an extra 20p of tax on their £70 shop. It shows that British people are the same as people everywhere: more easily manipulated by small short term losses (such as an exceptionally minor but explicitly stated tax) than by large losses which take a long time to become evident (like the destruction of the global climate as we know it).
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Sep 1, 2016 14:25
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Coohoolin posted:If you ban burqas, do you think the men forcing women to wear them will just go "welp, I guess you can leave the house like a normal person now, nothing I can do", or will it just result in these women not even being allowed to leave the house in the first place? Oh my god I agree with a Coohoolin post. 
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Sep 1, 2016 14:26
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bitterandtwisted posted:During both the bag charge and smoking ban, I lived in Scotland and had family in England and was surprised by how quickly it became the norm for me and seeing people in England smoking in pubs or using a hundred lovely bags was weird and very annoying. I was in Serbia last year and everyone there smokes. They're the highest per capita users of cigarettes in Europe apparently and I can easily see it. I know a few Serbians who live here now and it doesn't feel like they've adapted to the idea either. All of them and everyone there I spoke to felt it was insane to regulate people smoking. Yet I remember people smoking in pubs/restaurants when I was younger and yet it still feels super unnatural if I see it now. I wonder what causes us to accept it so readily?
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Sep 1, 2016 14:26
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Taear posted:I was in Serbia last year and everyone there smokes. They're the highest per capita users of cigarettes in Europe apparently and I can easily see it. I know a few Serbians who live here now and it doesn't feel like they've adapted to the idea either. All of them and everyone there I spoke to felt it was insane to regulate people smoking. The smoking ban was readily accepted because even smokers immediately realised it was so much better after.
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Sep 1, 2016 14:27
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StoneOfShame posted:Maybe the only way for us as humans to not ruin the planet is to all kill ourselves  Or at least reduce the population heavily in a non-genocidal manner. Lord of the Llamas posted:The smoking ban was readily accepted because even smokers immediately realised it was so much better after. Ostensibly the reason that indoor smoking was banned was because of a reduction in indoor air quality, which was dangerous for staff. Every other industry manages this with air quality controls. You're running a plating bath or a meat smoker or whatever, you check the indoor air quality to make sure that chemical X is below N ppm etc. If you look close to failing, you ventilate better. With the smoking ban it was all about percent coverage, not ventilation, so you could have low air quality areas around doors and that's fine, but it would be illegal to have an indoor smoking area with a huge extractor fan an air curtain to keep the air quality within safe limits.
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Sep 1, 2016 14:36
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I'm a heavy smoker but when I'm working in the cigar lounge and there's a few of us smoking in the winter so the door is shut it can get a bit too much for me.Lord of the Llamas posted:Oh my god I agree with a Coohoolin post. Don't worry its a commonly spoken point, I think I first read it in Zizek's excellent analysis of the Western relationship to the Burqa in the opening of I think Living in the End Times.
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Sep 1, 2016 14:40
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Cigarette litter on the grounds of my local hospital is now massively worse because the whole site is theoretically a no-smoking area, which somebody up top obviously believes means it's not on the hospital to provide cigarette disposal facilities. Nobody can be arsed walking 100m to leave the grounds for a fag break though, so the floor under a conveniently central outdoor overhang is ankle deep in butts.
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Sep 1, 2016 14:47
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Coohoolin posted:If you ban burqas, do you think the men forcing women to wear them will just go "welp, I guess you can leave the house like a normal person now, nothing I can do", or will it just result in these women not even being allowed to leave the house in the first place? Yep, this is a sensible post. Using force can also further restrict women by making them voluntarily opt out of public life if they can't cover themselves in what they see to be an appropriate fashion e.g. the face-stripping period by police in pre-revolution Iran (I think it was Iran? Been so long since I read about it). kingturnip posted:I think the problem I have with the idea that the burka - or the niqab or even hijab - is a symbol of oppression is that it's an idea that removes any semblance of choice on the part of the woman. The only trouble I see with the 'education and services' approach is that, if there is genuine oppression going on within a household, a woman might find herself unable to make the 'correct' choice due to being psychologically ground down, no matter what services are available. Think of the number of domestic violence cases in court that never go anywhere because the abused spouse is unwilling to press charges and keeps returning to the abusive partner thinking that's what they really want. I don't really have a solution though. I'm not in favour of banning it, except for the usual exemptions e.g. to be a witness in court, doctor etc.
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Sep 1, 2016 14:50
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StoneOfShame posted:I'm a heavy smoker but when I'm working in the cigar lounge and there's a few of us smoking in the winter so the door is shut it can get a bit too much for me. quote:Don't worry its a commonly spoken point, I think I first read it in Zizek's excellent analysis of the Western relationship to the Burqa in the opening of I think Living in the End Times. and so on posted:This is why, in our secular, choice-based societies, people who maintain a substantial religious belonging are in a subordinate position. Even if they are allowed to maintain their belief, their belief is "tolerated" as their idiosyncratic personal choice or opinion. The moment they present it publicly as what it is for them, say a matter of substantial belonging, they are accused of "fundamentalism." What this means is that the "subject of free choice" in the Western "tolerant" multicultural sense can emerge only as the result of extremely violent process of being torn out of a particular life world, of being cut off from one's roots.
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Sep 1, 2016 14:59
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Hey everyone who says they haven't gotten their ballot yet. There's talk of 100,000 people who haven't been purged who never got their ballot. Phone 0345 092 2299, hit option 5 and ask em.
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Sep 1, 2016 15:00
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Prince John posted:Yep, this is a sensible post. Using force can also further restrict women by making them voluntarily opt out of public life if they can't cover themselves in what they see to be an appropriate fashion e.g. the face-stripping period by police in pre-revolution Iran (I think it was Iran? Been so long since I read about it). I think the underlying issue is the question is merely standing in for the real question. Which is "should we send these bastards home" which they would have also overwhelmingly voted for. Thus does it avoid all the complications of removing the burka but not acknowledging incompatibility with Islamic culture. Because what they really really want is Islam banned.
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Sep 1, 2016 15:03
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StoneOfShame posted:Maybe the only way for us as humans to not ruin the planet is to all kill ourselves the government recently voted to renew the method for this to be possible fortunately
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Sep 1, 2016 15:11
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Coohoolin posted:Thus begins the great purging of our time, the advent of SEA PATROL.  No mercy for scoobydoos
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Sep 1, 2016 15:13
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I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!
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Guavanaut posted:
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