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sean10mm
Jun 29, 2005

Only dead doggos
follow the stream.



So it looks like the 980 Pro 4.0 is coming out soon, and a) apparently benchmarks way better than the current pcie 4.0 SSDs and b) is expected to cost like $350 for 1tb or something lmao

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Klyith
Aug 3, 2007

GBS Pledge Week


Almost Smart posted:

Question before I bone myself - I just cloned an SSD to a new NVMe drive of the same size. I've confirmed that the new drive is the boot drive and can disable the older drive with no ill effects, but I'd like to keep it around for storage. I was going to reformat the drive to clear it out, but Windows is warning me that it has processes in use. Is it safe to ignore the message, or is there a better way to go about cleaning it out?

Yes, as long as you're sure that you cloned over the whole thing including boot ("EFI system partition" in disk management) and recovery partitions.

Windows doesn't like to format itself, and tends to object. I think just seeing that an old page file exists on the other drive will make it declare that the drive is in use.

You can ignore the message and format the main partition, but you can't format / delete a boot partition with any of the normal GUI tools. So the easiest way to wipe an old OS drive that you want to reuse is to use diskpart. Follow instructions carefully. The clean command will completely wipe the drive by deleting the partition table. Then you can use the whole drive normally and not worry about having 2 drives with boot partitions.


sean10mm posted:

So it looks like the 980 Pro 4.0 is coming out soon, and a) apparently benchmarks way better than the current pcie 4.0 SSDs and b) is expected to cost like $350 for 1tb or something lmao

lol samsung gonna make bank on all the PCMR guys who are panicking that a console might have something better than them

Perfect Potato
Mar 4, 2009


Klyith posted:

lol samsung gonna make bank on all the PCMR guys who are panicking that a console might have something better than them
It's amazing how many people think game development is going to change overnight because console makers figured out what SSDs are and one has big number

movax
Aug 30, 2008



How long after the previous models did the EVOs launch? Probably not a bad idea for Samsung to only sell the PRO for the rest of the year + grabbing insecure PCMR folks, but I'm not actually sure what historically moves volume for their pro drives. OEM versions, not client versions?

e: maybe they'll sell pairs to people to RAID 0 to ensure they have the biggest number in the room?

movax fucked around with this message at 06:57 on Aug 31, 2020

Stickman
Feb 1, 2004

much, much larger than your hat, but not as large as the moon
-DNA


Klyith posted:

lol samsung gonna make bank on all the PCMR guys who are panicking that a console might have something better than them

I haven't really been paying attention the last few months, but are the console's streaming tricks even possible on PCIe 4.0 as it's currently structured? Without direct storage access from the GPU it seems like it'd just slam the CPU, but maybe I'm missing something?

VorpalFish
Mar 22, 2007
reasonably awesometm

movax posted:

How long after the previous models did the EVOs launch? Probably not a bad idea for Samsung to only sell the PRO for the rest of the year + grabbing insecure PCMR folks, but I'm not actually sure what historically moves volume for their pro drives. OEM versions, not client versions?

e: maybe they'll sell pairs to people to RAID 0 to ensure they have the biggest number in the room?

Tweaktown has an article up with specs for a phison e18 based rocket 4 plus so I doubt samsung is going to be able to maintain a monopoly on fast pcie4 drives for long. Probably won't have the luxury of holding back the more cost effective option unless they want to cede that market.

DrDork
Dec 29, 2003
commanding officer of the Army of Dorkness

Klyith posted:

I think DrDork was sarcastic posting

I (mostly) was, yeah. The budget malpractice I had to deal with daily was usually more of the "let's spend $250k on a new network sensor no one asked for instead of replacing the failed PSU in the SAN that runs 50% of our department's mission-critical VMs. Yes we know that means it's running on just a single PSU now, but it's been that way for two years so why rush at this point?" My friend was the one who got to deal with the ML nonsense.

There's a reason neither of us still work there.

DrDork
Dec 29, 2003
commanding officer of the Army of Dorkness

Stickman posted:

I haven't really been paying attention the last few months, but are the console's streaming tricks even possible on PCIe 4.0 as it's currently structured? Without direct storage access from the GPU it seems like it'd just slam the CPU, but maybe I'm missing something?

The only real salient difference between what the PS5 is doing vs normal PCIe is that they've got a decompression hardware block in the SoC to allow them to hit a theoretical ~9GBps transfer off a 5GBps disk instead of being limited to PCIe 4.0 4x's ~8GBps theoretical max and requiring a drive that can actually dump data that fast. With DMA in PCIe, dumping from disk to RAM shouldn't be much of a load on the CPU so long as the data doesn't need any modification in-flight.

The bigger question is, I think, how will that data be used. Since the consoles are using a shared memory for both system and VRAM, anything in there can be used by both the CPU or GPU without additional shifting around. Obviously that's not the case on a PC. I know NVidia has GPUDirect Storage/RDMA to allow a local drive to move data directly into GPU VRAM, but I have no idea if that's actually been implemented in gaming engines or if it's just something that's being kicked around at HPC labs. If not, having to take a trip through the CPU and system memory to get to the GPU would add a chunk of time compared to what the consoles are able to do with streaming assets in and out.

Then again, we'll have to see if they actually even do much with it. Part of the reason that the speed of being able to load assets off the disk was such a factor in the current gen of consoles is that (1) that speed was terrible, and (2) the system RAM sizes were tiny (8GB for system+gpu together), so there was a ton of asset control that had to happen. With 16GB to play with this time around, they may simply not need to do as much asset swapping in the first place. Plus the XBox is limited to ~5GBps, so anything not PS5-exclusive is gonna have to cater to that, anyhow.

movax
Aug 30, 2008



Can you move hiberfil.sys to a different drive these days? A 1 TB C:\ drive should be enough but if you have a TR / HEDT setup with 64-128 GB of RAM, that's an easy 10% capacity loss right out of the gate.

I've been limping along with 512 GB as an OS drive on a machine w/ 32 GB of RAM and hover ~100 GB free as Windows accrues SxS / windows update cruft.

Shogunner
Apr 29, 2010

Ready to crash and burn.
I never learn.
I'm on the rapetrain.

I know ADATA is not a first-choice brand, but is there any reason to not use this as my only drive on a new rig? It's so much cheaper than the Samsung EVO drives, and has 2TB with NVME. Last time I bought PC parts M2 didn't exist so there has to be something I'm missing here??

https://pcpartpicker.com/product/dD...aswordfish-2t-c

Klyith
Aug 3, 2007

GBS Pledge Week


movax posted:

Can you move hiberfil.sys to a different drive these days?

No, it has to be on the boot drive -- it's loading hiberfile at the very start of the boot process, before drivers for storage.

But if you have a TR HEDT, why not just disable hibernation altogether? S3 sleep uses a minimal amount of power (and shouldn't really be much more with a monster PC than a normal desktop, all those high-power parts are off). You also lose fast boot, but win10 boots pretty drat fast. And resume from sleep is faster than fast boot -- I go weeks between reboots because I use sleep for 'off' nearly 100% of the time.

Hibernation is IMO pretty useless for desktops.

Shogunner posted:

I know ADATA is not a first-choice brand, but is there any reason to not use this as my only drive on a new rig? It's so much cheaper than the Samsung EVO drives, and has 2TB with NVME. Last time I bought PC parts M2 didn't exist so there has to be something I'm missing here??

https://pcpartpicker.com/product/dD...aswordfish-2t-c

It's a slow drive for nvme and the much better SX8200 Pro is only $10 more right now.

extra edit: the swordfish (and another cheap adata drive, falcon) use realtek controllers. I'm personally avoiding & dis-recommending realtek controller SSDs because:
1) they just entered the market this year and have no reliability history
2) they're loving realtek, barf

Klyith fucked around with this message at 20:28 on Aug 31, 2020

movax
Aug 30, 2008



Klyith posted:

No, it has to be on the boot drive -- it's loading hiberfile at the very start of the boot process, before drivers for storage.

But if you have a TR HEDT, why not just disable hibernation altogether? S3 sleep uses a minimal amount of power (and shouldn't really be much more with a monster PC than a normal desktop, all those high-power parts are off). You also lose fast boot, but win10 boots pretty drat fast. And resume from sleep is faster than fast boot -- I go weeks between reboots because I use sleep for 'off' nearly 100% of the time.

Hibernation is IMO pretty useless for desktops.

I mostly keep hibernation enabled so my UPS can trigger it when a power outage happens. I don't use S3 sleep at all — leave my machine on 24/7, mostly because having seen how the sausage is made, I remain forever skeptical that ACPI power states work without loving anything up / causing a BSOD / forcing a reboot eventually. Maybe it's time to try it again, though.

DrDork
Dec 29, 2003
commanding officer of the Army of Dorkness

Klyith posted:

It's a slow drive for nvme and the much better SX8200 Pro is only $10 more right now.

Seconding the SX8200 Pro. ADATA is a second-tier company in general, but their SSDs have actually been quite good and excellent bargains compared to your usual suspects. I've got an SX8200 Pro, myself, and it's been great. Samsung's entire lineup is, frankly, not worth the prices they're charging anymore--they're coasting on name-brand recognition far more than having an objectively superior product with the EVO line. Their Pro line is still good, but even more expensive.

Shogunner
Apr 29, 2010

Ready to crash and burn.
I never learn.
I'm on the rapetrain.

Klyith posted:

It's a slow drive for nvme and the much better SX8200 Pro is only $10 more right now.

extra edit: the swordfish (and another cheap adata drive, falcon) use realtek controllers. I'm personally avoiding & dis-recommending realtek controller SSDs because:
1) they just entered the market this year and have no reliability history
2) they're loving realtek, barf

Didn't even see this one. Definitely going with that then. Thanks!

redeyes
Sep 14, 2002
I LOVE THE WHITE STRIPES!

Samsung NAND is a notch above ADATA. Mojo my friends.

DrDork
Dec 29, 2003
commanding officer of the Army of Dorkness

redeyes posted:

Samsung NAND is a notch above ADATA. Mojo my friends.

Even assuming that's technically true, it doesn't matter for normal consumers who aren't running production db applications on it.

BIG HEADLINE
Jun 13, 2006

Make your move...'cause mine's gonna be ugly.

ADATA has really stepped up their game over the past few years. I had no problem recommending the SX8200 Pro to a friend doing a new 3700X build.

...of course, two weeks later the SKHynix P31 came out.

DrDork
Dec 29, 2003
commanding officer of the Army of Dorkness

BIG HEADLINE posted:

...of course, two weeks later the SKHynix P31 came out.

It's not like he'd ever notice the difference in actual use unless he's just doing renders all day or something.

BIG HEADLINE
Jun 13, 2006

Make your move...'cause mine's gonna be ugly.

Sure, but I generally like to help people get the best stuff that fits their price range.

Almost Smart
Sep 14, 2001

so your telling me you wasn't drunk or fucked up in anyway. when you had sex with me and that monkey

I literally just transferred my ssd over to a Sabrent rocket 4.0 yesterday and now the rocket 4.0 + is announced today. Bah.

I use the PC it's in purely for gaming so it's not like it makes that much of a difference anyway, but I probably could have saved some money had I waited another couple months.

Atomizer
Jun 24, 2007

Bote McBoteface. so what


I just want to reiterate that, while I've been an Adata proponent, I recently described multiple Adata SSD failures, including the previous-gen SX8200. While the sample size is small, I'd suggest trying other brands as there are many similarly-priced options nowadays.

BIG HEADLINE
Jun 13, 2006

Make your move...'cause mine's gonna be ugly.

It should also be said that even though the SKHynix P31 is getting really good benchmarks and reviews...for all any of us know it could eat itself alive and generate a singularity after six months of regular use. There are always outliers to MTBF.

Binary Badger
Oct 11, 2005

Trolling Link for a decade




It's also built with their own controller chip, eschewing the Phison / Silicon Magic based controllers..

movax
Aug 30, 2008



Binary Badger posted:

It's also built with their own controller chip, eschewing the Phison / Silicon Magic based controllers..

I've always liked the stability / performance I've gotten from Samsung controllers / their drives which is why I stick with them even if they aren't the cheapest / most cost effective anymore.

SK has a lot of presence as OEM drives, so not a "new" entrant — just the first time they're actually releasing directly to consumers instead of OEM. Pretty sure XPS 13s show up with either SK or Samsung OEM NVMe sticks.

Pablo Bluth
Sep 7, 2007

I've made a huge mistake.


Do NVME drives have PCIe lane flexibility like other PCIe devices or do they always expect 4 per device? Could a motherboard use PCIe4 to offer two M2 dual-lane slots (each equivalent to PCIe3 speeds) rather than one slot at twice the speed?

movax
Aug 30, 2008



Pablo Bluth posted:

Do NVME drives have PCIe lane flexibility like other PCIe devices or do they always expect 4 per device? Could a motherboard use PCIe4 to offer two M2 dual-lane slots (each equivalent to PCIe3 speeds) rather than one slot at twice the speed?

Every compliant device should downtrain as part of the link negotiation process, but then that device can choose to go into whatever state it wants if the width is too small for it. AFAIK no NVME drives refuse to run at small link widths, you're just not going to get the speed you want.

M.2 was design with x4 lanes as the assumed "standard" — absolutely, if the PCIe root complex supports it, you could put a bunch of 2 lane M.2 slots all over the board, but people would then have to buy matching x2 PCIe 4.0 devices to enjoy full performance, and those things aren't going to happen at the same time.

A fun theoretical all-flash storage array could be an add-in card (I mean, I'm describing enterprise NVMe here I guess) that takes a x16 link and offers up 4 x4 PCIe 4.0 slots for drives. Samsung and friends just already make x8 width NAND controllers that they throw onto HHHL cards for servers.

Rinkles
Oct 24, 2010

What I'm getting at is...
Do you feel the same way?


I have a prebuilt with an nvme m.2 port that's only two lane. It's possible this was user error, but I decided to go with a SATA drive when upgrading from a hard drive because I saw online reports of issues with getting nvme drives recognized.

priznat
Jul 7, 2009

Let's get drunk and kiss each other all night.

The small optane m.2s were x2 only so it could be that was what was planned for that prebuilt.

DrDork
Dec 29, 2003
commanding officer of the Army of Dorkness

Pablo Bluth posted:

Do NVME drives have PCIe lane flexibility like other PCIe devices or do they always expect 4 per device? Could a motherboard use PCIe4 to offer two M2 dual-lane slots (each equivalent to PCIe3 speeds) rather than one slot at twice the speed?

Yes, in the sense that it could split 4 lanes over two slots for a 2/2 setup. The catch with that is if you slapped a current PCIe 3.0 NVMe drive into such a slot, you wouldn't get "full PCIe 3.0" speed, AFAIK, you'd get half of it, because the drive will only see two lanes and can only speak PCIe 3.0, so it's now working as a 2x PCIe 3.0 drive (so 2GB/s), even though the slot could support being a 2x PCIe 4.0 link (4GB/s).

Basically it wouldn't end up being any different than if you just split a current 4x PCIe 3.0 link in half if you're using current PCIe 3.0 drives. But if you were using PCIe 4.0 drives, yeah, you could get two 4GB/s slots out of it instead of one 8GB/s slot.

priznat
Jul 7, 2009

Let's get drunk and kiss each other all night.

Plug a dual port drive into the x2x2 slot

movax
Aug 30, 2008



priznat posted:

Plug a dual port drive into the x2x2 slot

Isn't that what some Optanes do, depending on the RC to bifurcate properly? Half for the Optane, half for the QLC?

priznat
Jul 7, 2009

Let's get drunk and kiss each other all night.

movax posted:

Isn't that what some Optanes do, depending on the RC to bifurcate properly? Half for the Optane, half for the QLC?

I haven’t seen those, we had some of the super cheap, tiny optane only drives and they were just x2 keyed.



58GB of powerrrrr (we had some 16GB ones too )

Very cheap gen3 endpoints you could run traffic to is all we cared about

Klyith
Aug 3, 2007

GBS Pledge Week


movax posted:

A fun theoretical all-flash storage array could be an add-in card (I mean, I'm describing enterprise NVMe here I guess) that takes a x16 link and offers up 4 x4 PCIe 4.0 slots for drives. Samsung and friends just already make x8 width NAND controllers that they throw onto HHHL cards for servers.

These exist, but note the compatibility. Regular consumer chipsets / CPUs can't use them because they can't do PCIe bifurcation on their own. Threadripper and Intel -X series can because they're inheriting that ability from their server counterparts.

(Though for real enterprise they aren't gonna use some add in card with m.2 slots, because installing and replacing drives would be a PITA. You get NVMe u.2 drives.)



On standard consumer mobos, anything that increases flexibility with PCIe lanes requires extra bridge chips on the board which increases costs. That's why on a more expensive board there will be 2 slots designed for GPUs, and if you use the main one it's 16x but if you plug anything into the 2nd one it splits that 16x into two 8x, both using the same direct CPU link. There's an extra chip doing that. On a cheap board they'll just put a 4x chipset link into a 16x full size slot and call it good.

So while NVMe drives, like all PCIe devices, will accept down-shifting to fewer lanes than their max, there are limits to how useful this is in practice when most mobos are almost completely static in their routing.

BIG HEADLINE
Jun 13, 2006

Make your move...'cause mine's gonna be ugly.

So Phison just poo poo in Samsung's corn flakes: https://www.guru3d.com/news-story/s...msungs-rear end.html

Gotta admit, I'm enjoying this new environment of tech companies not waiting for conventions to mic drop each other.

Obviously R/W isn't everything, and I'd imagine both drives will get toasty, but since Phison has proven they'll license to anyone, it'll definitely make the Samsung Tax less palatable.

BIG HEADLINE fucked around with this message at 18:31 on Sep 1, 2020

Pablo Bluth
Sep 7, 2007

I've made a huge mistake.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O5hKD_G_47w

Rinkles
Oct 24, 2010

What I'm getting at is...
Do you feel the same way?


"-would you be interested in reviewing our ssd?
-sure that'd be great.
-how much do you charge?"

WhyteRyce
Dec 30, 2001



HDDs coming back with a vengeance

quote:

According to blog Bit-Tech.net, sources in the hard drive industry say that Western Digital (maker of the old world's fastest hard drive) "is working on a 20,000RPM Raptor hard drive to combat" Solid State Drives, since these are going to "be affordable in the next 12 or 18 months."

BIG HEADLINE
Jun 13, 2006

Make your move...'cause mine's gonna be ugly.

WhyteRyce posted:

HDDs coming back with a vengeance

to what's left of data center employee's hearing.

WhyteRyce
Dec 30, 2001



One of my favorite things to do in my old lab was take a dead/bad hard drive, power it up, and then yank it out and feel the gyroscopic effects or just throw it on the ground. Wish I could have done that to these drives

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movax
Aug 30, 2008



WhyteRyce posted:

HDDs coming back with a vengeance

What spec are they combating with 20,000 RPM exactly?

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