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DrDork
Dec 29, 2003
commanding officer of the Army of Dorkness

Rev. Bleech_ posted:

Apparently it is QLC. Unless I misunderstand what I read about QLC, that's not ideal for the intended purpose (OS/app/game drive). On the other hand, it would be replacing a 4 year old M.2 drive which doesn't feature NVMe. Hrm.

QLC is fine for that if you go into it knowing you simply cannot fill it up and expect to retain good performance. As long as you leave a good chunk of free space on it, it'll be pretty much fine.

But, yeah, TLC drives are a bit better if you don't want to have to baby its capacity.

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Rev. Bleech_
Oct 19, 2004

We was comin' back from the island of Tinian to Leyte - just delivered the BUMB, the Hiroshima bumb. Eleven hundred men went into the water.



DrDork posted:

QLC is fine for that if you go into it knowing you simply cannot fill it up and expect to retain good performance. As long as you leave a good chunk of free space on it, it'll be pretty much fine.

But, yeah, TLC drives are a bit better if you don't want to have to baby its capacity.

I should be able to handle that; my first Samsung SSD's performance went to poo poo if less than 20% free space was available, but I haven't had that issue for awhile. Thanks for the info!

Now on to part 2: finding an M-keyed M.2 to SATA adapter to repurpose the old one

Some Goon
Jan 6, 2013

A golden helix streaked skyward from the Helvault. A thunderous explosion shattered the silver monolith and Avacyn emerged, free from her prison at last.




What I hear is that it's better to keep your os off a QLC drive to prevent all of the random writes, but it's fine for games / apps / storage, as long as it's not over full, but I don't know how important that really is. Not a super amount, I suspect.

Bob Morales
Aug 18, 2006

I love the succulent taste of cop boots

Some Goon posted:

What I hear is that it's better to keep your os off a QLC drive to prevent all of the random writes
It will work fine. It will just be slower.

Klyith
Aug 3, 2007

GBS Pledge Week


Random writes from the OS aren't really that big a deal, for either drive endurance or performance, even on QLC. It's a relatively small amount of data and it's gonna stay within the SLC cache easily. As long as you keep enough spare space that the drive has more SLC cache than normal use will consume, the QLC badness will never be apparent.

If I was running a QLC drive one thing I might do is turn off Shadowplay (or the same features on AMD / xbox game bar) since that involves constantly writing video to the drive while you're playing games. Or re-direct it to a different drive if possible.



However,

Rev. Bleech_ posted:

Prime Day has a P5 NVMe up for $115 and I'm tempted to pull the trigger
the P5 is a TLC drive, so you can ignore everything that we've been talking about!


But I wanna point out that Newegg currently has the WD SN750 at an equal $120 right now. Between the P5 and the SN750 I'd take the SN750, because they have roughly equal performance but the P5 has somewhat crazy thermals. I dunno why the P5 is so hot but it is way more prone to throttling than the average drive.

Rev. Bleech_
Oct 19, 2004

We was comin' back from the island of Tinian to Leyte - just delivered the BUMB, the Hiroshima bumb. Eleven hundred men went into the water.



Klyith posted:

Random writes from the OS aren't really that big a deal, for either drive endurance or performance, even on QLC. It's a relatively small amount of data and it's gonna stay within the SLC cache easily. As long as you keep enough spare space that the drive has more SLC cache than normal use will consume, the QLC badness will never be apparent.

If I was running a QLC drive one thing I might do is turn off Shadowplay (or the same features on AMD / xbox game bar) since that involves constantly writing video to the drive while you're playing games. Or re-direct it to a different drive if possible.



However,

the P5 is a TLC drive, so you can ignore everything that we've been talking about!


But I wanna point out that Newegg currently has the WD SN750 at an equal $120 right now. Between the P5 and the SN750 I'd take the SN750, because they have roughly equal performance but the P5 has somewhat crazy thermals. I dunno why the P5 is so hot but it is way more prone to throttling than the average drive.

oh nice, Amazon matched that SN750 price and it supposedly clobbers the P5 in random write, ordered. Going from the SATA mode X400 to NVME should be a fuckin' ride since ASUS apparently added NVME support to my board a couple of years back

Klyith
Aug 3, 2007

GBS Pledge Week


Rev. Bleech_ posted:

since ASUS apparently added NVME support to my board a couple of years back

Uh, is this a motherboard from before NVMe existed that had support added in later bios updates? Some of those can attach NVMe storage but can't boot the OS from a NVMe drive, so you may want to check the details for that.

Rev. Bleech_
Oct 19, 2004

We was comin' back from the island of Tinian to Leyte - just delivered the BUMB, the Hiroshima bumb. Eleven hundred men went into the water.



Klyith posted:

Uh, is this a motherboard from before NVMe existed that had support added in later bios updates? Some of those can attach NVMe storage but can't boot the OS from a NVMe drive, so you may want to check the details for that.

According to Intel's docs and posts elsewhere I should be fine. It's a Z97 chipset and it post-dates the spec finalization by a couple of years

EDIT: worst case I'm planning on a new build in the next 6 months or so

Rev. Bleech_ fucked around with this message at 23:53 on Oct 14, 2020

BIG HEADLINE
Jun 13, 2006

Make your move...'cause mine's gonna be ugly.

Rev. Bleech_ posted:

According to Intel's docs and posts elsewhere I should be fine. It's a Z97 chipset and it post-dates the spec finalization by a couple of years

EDIT: worst case I'm planning on a new build in the next 6 months or so

Bear in mind that I think you'll only get two lanes of PCIe 3.0 out of a Z97, so expect a speed limit of ~1500-1700MB/sec, not 3000+.

DrDork
Dec 29, 2003
commanding officer of the Army of Dorkness

BIG HEADLINE posted:

Bear in mind that I think you'll only get two lanes of PCIe 3.0 out of a Z97, so expect a speed limit of ~1500-1700MB/sec, not 3000+.

Other than benchmarking, that'll never matter.

Hell, if you're expecting some mind-blowing difference between a SATA SSD and a NVMe SSD in every day use, you're in for some disappointment. Expect a couple (like, literally 2) second difference in boot time, and virtually no difference in gaming.

Not having wires all over the damned place sure is nice, though.

AverySpecialfriend
Jul 8, 2017



DrDork posted:

Other than benchmarking, that'll never matter.

Hell, if you're expecting some mind-blowing difference between a SATA SSD and a NVMe SSD in every day use, you're in for some disappointment. Expect a couple (like, literally 2) second difference in boot time, and virtually no difference in gaming.

Not having wires all over the damned place sure is nice, though.

Oh this is nice to hear. I just found a steal on one of those tb3 docks with a built in m2 slot for pcie 3x2. I'm on a mission to make my macbook midrange gaming capable so that plus my egpu seems like it will be good enough for me

DrDork
Dec 29, 2003
commanding officer of the Army of Dorkness

AverySpecialfriend posted:

Oh this is nice to hear. I just found a steal on one of those tb3 docks with a built in m2 slot for pcie 3x2. I'm on a mission to make my macbook midrange gaming capable so that plus my egpu seems like it will be good enough for me

Yeah, most games right now are build around the assumption of max transfers of like...100MB/s, thanks to consoles still having HDDs. So a SATA SSD at 600MB/s is still way faster than most games are able to really use, let alone the multi-GB/s you can get out of NVMe. Latency certainly helps in a lot of cases, but latency between basically all SSDs is close enough to not have much of a meaningful impact in real world applications.

Get whatever fits your setup and you'll probably never even realize that a slightly faster option might have been available for triple the price.

AverySpecialfriend
Jul 8, 2017



The dock even included a 500gb 660p so it feels like a pretty win situation for me

WhyteRyce
Dec 30, 2001



https://in.reuters.com/article/us-i...e-idINKBN2742IY

quote:

Intel Corp is preparing to sell its NAND memory chip business to South Korean chipmaker SK Hynix Inc for around $10 billion in an all-cash transaction, a source familiar with the matter said on Monday.

Intel would sell its solid-state drive business in the United States and its factory in Dalian, China, which produces advanced flash memory, referred to as 3D NAND, the source told Reuters. The company would keep XPoint, its advanced memory technology unit.

priznat
Jul 7, 2009

Let's get drunk and kiss each other all night.

Interesting they are getting rid of NAND but keeping XPoint.

WhyteRyce
Dec 30, 2001



priznat posted:

Interesting they are getting rid of NAND but keeping XPoint.

Optane is more integrated with Intel platform efforts, whereas NAND is just this thing that kind of dangles off to the side of their business. Also I don't know if SKHynix even wants to play in that market. And they might just want the Chinese fab and screw everything else

Klyith
Aug 3, 2007

GBS Pledge Week


priznat posted:

Interesting they are getting rid of NAND but keeping XPoint.

I'd guess Xpoint wouldn't add much to the sale price since it's still more potential than product. Especially to someone like SK Hynix, who are not exactly a R&D powerhouse.

If they're selling the "drive business in the United States" I wonder if that includes the rights to continue to sell SSDs with intel branding?

WhyteRyce
Dec 30, 2001



SKHynix is relatively new to the SSD game right? I'd imagine soaking up all the business contracts and channels gives them a good head start

priznat
Jul 7, 2009

Let's get drunk and kiss each other all night.

Yeah I wonder if they are going to keep making nand based drives at all, they are doing less on the controller side in house so perhaps just want to focus solely on dimm based optane or whatever.

It’s not a bad move to get out of nand, it’s just a commodity and if you’re not one of the big dogs it doesn’t make a lot of sense.

Cygni
Nov 12, 2005

raring to post



Beyond the business reasons, politically the China fab has been a problem for Intel too. Not entirely surprised they want to offload it.

Klyith
Aug 3, 2007

GBS Pledge Week


WhyteRyce posted:

SKHynix is relatively new to the SSD game right? I'd imagine soaking up all the business contracts and channels gives them a good head start

No, only new to retail drives. They've been supplying full drives to OEMs for a long time, but since they were OEM-only they didn't have much visibility. (And I gather that they weren't stellar performers until recently.)

So they've got plenty of contacts and channels, but aren't a consumer name. That's why I was thinking about the deal maybe including the Intel name for SSDs in the US. $10 billion is way too much for just a NAND fab, that's what TSMC's newest 7nm+ fab cost. NAND stuff is considerably cheaper.

WhyteRyce
Dec 30, 2001



Klyith posted:

No, only new to retail drives. They've been supplying full drives to OEMs for a long time, but since they were OEM-only they didn't have much visibility. (And I gather that they weren't stellar performers until recently.)

So they've got plenty of contacts and channels, but aren't a consumer name. That's why I was thinking about the deal maybe including the Intel name for SSDs in the US. $10 billion is way too much for just a NAND fab, that's what TSMC's newest 7nm+ fab cost. NAND stuff is considerably cheaper.

I believe they are new to enterprise though, something which is both more lucrative than client/retail and something Intel has plenty of contacts and channels for

redeyes
Sep 14, 2002
I LOVE THE WHITE STRIPES!

WhyteRyce posted:

I believe they are new to enterprise though, something which is both more lucrative than client/retail and something Intel has plenty of contacts and channels for

They have been making memory for eons. I wouldn't worry about the brand at all.

WhyteRyce
Dec 30, 2001



redeyes posted:

They have been making memory for eons. I wouldn't worry about the brand at all.

making and selling memory != making and selling enterprise ssds

BobHoward
Feb 13, 2012

The only thing white people deserve is a bullet to their empty skull


WhyteRyce posted:

I believe they are new to enterprise though, something which is both more lucrative than client/retail and something Intel has plenty of contacts and channels for

SK bought an enterprise SSD business unit from Violin Memory all the way back in 2014. They've been around, just haven't been making huge waves. (Which means it still makes sense to gain access to Intel's contacts and channels.)

WhyteRyce
Dec 30, 2001



BobHoward posted:

SK bought an enterprise SSD business unit from Violin Memory all the way back in 2014. They've been around, just haven't been making huge waves. (Which means it still makes sense to gain access to Intel's contacts and channels.)

Yeah, being around doesn't mean much itself. First time quals are painful, every customer has their own asks and nuances which aren't captured until they've run it through their own testing, and people are slow to trust a vendor they've never worked with before

Intel learned multiple times the hard way you can't just walk into an enterprise business segment with just your name and an SSD and I still don't know if they've gotten it. But sorry Hynix buyer beware

WhyteRyce fucked around with this message at 01:29 on Oct 20, 2020

redeyes
Sep 14, 2002
I LOVE THE WHITE STRIPES!

WhyteRyce posted:

Yeah, being around doesn't mean much itself. First time quals are painful, every customer has their own asks and nuances which aren't captured until they've run it through their own testing, and people are slow to trust a vendor they've never worked with before

Intel learned multiple times the hard way you can't just walk into an enterprise business segment with just your name and an SSD and I still don't know if they've gotten it. But sorry Hynix buyer beware

TBH the entire SSD industry has had some growing to do. Don't you think the tech is pretty mature at this point? Or am I missing some super high end stuff that consumers don't have privy to?

WhyteRyce
Dec 30, 2001



redeyes posted:

TBH the entire SSD industry has had some growing to do. Don't you think the tech is pretty mature at this point? Or am I missing some super high end stuff that consumers don't have privy to?

Customers ask for their own log pages for counters or flags that they care about. You could argue something like the OCP spec might try to standardize it but it and products aren't there yet. A huge amount of nvme features are optional (for example fw update without reset is not required by the spec but may be by a customer). SSD features themselves are up to vendor implementation, like what your drive does when the plp cap fails its self test. This isn't even getting into hacks some customers learned in the early SAS/ATA days and still expect to use. Do you know the systems the customers want to put your drives in? What are the form factors and power and cooling envelopes you have to fit in to? Do you expose different NVMe power states so I can set it myself? Are you selling m.2, u.2, e1.s, pcie aic? Are you selling 22110 or 2280 m.2? Is this customer only caring about e1.s? What pitch? What is your catastrophic error handling policy? How is it communicated and handled?

It's not a unique or difficult problem but it is something that can easily slip through the cracks for a company just starting to get their foot in the door. Possibly better to buy this knowledge instead of wasting 2-3 years going through a failed product lifecycle

WhyteRyce fucked around with this message at 02:46 on Oct 20, 2020

redeyes
Sep 14, 2002
I LOVE THE WHITE STRIPES!

Got it, not the actual tech, all the enterprise requirements.

WhyteRyce
Dec 30, 2001



So it's actually only $9B, $7B at the end of 2021 and $2B in 2025. I don't know big business acquisitions but that seems like Intel got squeezed at the last minute

Ak Gara
Jul 29, 2005

That's just the way he rolls.

I've been using 2 2TB WD Passport Ultra HDD's as external backup drives for just over 5 years now. (1 plugged in, 1 in offsite storage, rotated monthly) Thinking of updating them to something newer.

I've decided it's between 2x Samsung T5 2TB (£568) or 2x 860 Evo 2TB (£480) + USB 3.0 to Sata external housing thing.

I'm leaning towards the Evo's. Yes/no?

ijyt
Apr 10, 2012



Ak Gara posted:

I've been using 2 2TB WD Passport Ultra HDD's as external backup drives for just over 5 years now. (1 plugged in, 1 in offsite storage, rotated monthly) Thinking of updating them to something newer.

I've decided it's between 2x Samsung T5 2TB (£568) or 2x 860 Evo 2TB (£480) + USB 3.0 to Sata external housing thing.

I'm leaning towards the Evo's. Yes/no?

I'd just update them to newer (and larger, if necessary) HDDs. I don't see the point in SSDs as back-up storage, especially when HDDs are plenty fine and aren't in constant use, so aren't at the usual risk of failure. Seems pretty wasteful to be honest.

Thanks Ants
May 21, 2004

Bless You Ants, Blants



Fun Shoe

I wouldn't use SSDs for storage that you unplug. Just rotate two larger capacity hard drives.

Or honestly, if you only have 2TB of data then £550 buys you a few years of Backblaze.

ijyt
Apr 10, 2012



Speaking of Backblaze I have a subscription with them for consumer stuff, but I keep hearing about B2 from them which I assume is a business option, is it that much better?

Dunno if there’s a better thread for this.

DrDork
Dec 29, 2003
commanding officer of the Army of Dorkness

ijyt posted:

Speaking of Backblaze I have a subscription with them for consumer stuff, but I keep hearing about B2 from them which I assume is a business option, is it that much better?

Dunno if there’s a better thread for this.

B2 is "better" in the sense that they don't try to limit you as much--you can back up networked drives / multiple computers without jumping through hoops, and I believe the upload speeds are better, too. The downside is it's a pay-by-the-GB deal, rather than the unlimited consumer plan.

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Bob Morales
Aug 18, 2006

I love the succulent taste of cop boots

DrDork posted:

B2 is "better" in the sense that they don't try to limit you as much--you can back up networked drives / multiple computers without jumping through hoops, and I believe the upload speeds are better, too. The downside is it's a pay-by-the-GB deal, rather than the unlimited consumer plan.

It’s also more like Amazon S3 where anything that has a client can write to it and not “backup one pc with our client” and you can also download whatever you want without Backblaze having to process it

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