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Is PTLC what I think it is? Eewwwwwwwww
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Mar 27, 2025 00:42
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Shumagorath posted:Is PTLC what I think it is? Eewwwwwwwww Micron ptlc is really loving good and blows qlc out of the water in terms of performance and they know it so it’s the highest price dense drive you can get that isn’t just regular TLC Also it has only a 4KB indirection unit so it’s basically just a drop in solution vs. qlc drives of the same size
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Mar 27, 2025 00:56
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WhyteRyce posted:Micron ptlc is really loving good and blows qlc out of the water in terms of performance and they know it so it’s the highest price dense drive you can get that isn’t just regular TLC
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Mar 27, 2025 01:34
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I still don't understand how nvme HDDs are going to work for large data storage. If you want to fan out to 100 drives you need a super expensive PCIe switch? Even consumer motherboards have had 6 SATA ports forever, but they're so stingy with PCIe lanes, are they really going to dedicate one to each drive? 6 is a lot when you have 24 total SATA/SAS aren't great but at least it's easy to run a lot of drives off one controller with an expander
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Mar 27, 2025 14:35
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Yaoi Gagarin posted:I still don't understand how nvme HDDs are going to work for large data storage. If you want to fan out to 100 drives you need a super expensive PCIe switch? You get 136 PCIe 5.0 lanes off of a single cheap Xeon now: https://www.tomshardware.com/pc-com...socket-platform. There's no shortage of PCIe lanes in most server platforms, as Epyc has been offering 128 PCIe lanes with a single socket for 8 years and even the cheapo ARM stuff like Ampere Altra has 128 lanes. Saukkis posted:And are SSDs that much more expensive on enterprise scale if you need more performance than spinning. Last year we bought new servers for backup use and equipped them with eleven 15 terabyte SSDs, a server cost about 30k€. Sure, but that's still more than 4x as much as the same amount of hard disk would cost, I just took a peek and vendor list pricing for 24x24TB HDDs in a complete server is under $18k, 3.5x as much storage for 2/3 the cost. Even the biggest guys are still buying a ton of hard disk, Google posted recently about how most of their data lives on HDD to this day: https://cloud.google.com/blog/products/storage-data-transfer/how-colossus-optimizes-data-placement-for-performance?e=13802955 I for one welcome our NVMe hard disk future.
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Mar 27, 2025 15:06
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Even if you just buy a bunch of smaller PCIe switches and stick them each on a PCIe lane or daisy chain them (vs getting one large one) you still probably can get better concurrent performance than with a hba/esm jbod solution. Someone with actual hba/expander jbod knowledge can correct me on that but that hba/esm jbod isn't a packet switch so drives can get starved out PCIe gen 3 x1 can give you way more bandwidth than something like gen3 sata drives can do so that gives you a lot of ability to play around with your setup WhyteRyce fucked around with this message at 16:44 on Mar 27, 2025 |
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Mar 27, 2025 15:30
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Twerk from Home posted:
HDDs still make a ton of sense for cold storage. Something like Ceph lets you do things like automagically move data that’s gone cold to HDD pools. But even they seem to be begging people to just use QLC if the data has any kind of warmth Unfortunately nvme HDDs will never happen because WD and Toshiba won’t get their poo poo together and too many companies don’t want to single source their poo poo 
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Mar 27, 2025 15:38
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WhyteRyce posted:HDDs still make a ton of sense for cold storage. Something like Ceph lets you do things like automagically move data that’s gone cold to HDD pools. But even they seem to be begging people to just use QLC if the data has any kind of warmth Yeah, hard disks are getting even colder over time now that capacities keep increasing but read speeds do not. They're acting like tape! https://engineering.fb.com/2025/03/04/data-center-engineering/a-case-for-qlc-ssds-in-the-data-center/ 
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Mar 27, 2025 15:58
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The only practical way to really increase capacity going forward is HMR right? Do those still write as fast since they now have to heat? And doesn’t endurance now take a hit?
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Mar 27, 2025 16:02
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Anyone purchased or could recommend a manufacturer/model of 2TB NVME m.2 gen4 SSD? I'm overwhelmed by options and negative reviews on amazon and would appreciate a point in the right direction. I guess I'm looking at WD Blue/Black (can't remember the difference) and maybe Samsung, I seem to recall they're well regarded for storage. Any help greatly appreciated even if it's vague or completely anecdotal. e: for example this crucial is on sale and seems good https://a.co/d/cxglkw5
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Mar 27, 2025 23:29
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I've been nothing but happy with my WD Black SN850X's. Use 'em everywhere.
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Mar 27, 2025 23:30
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Shumagorath posted:I've been nothing but happy with my WD Black SN850X's. Use 'em everywhere.
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Mar 27, 2025 23:50
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QR Code Geass posted:Anyone purchased or could recommend a manufacturer/model of 2TB NVME m.2 gen4 SSD? The T500 is among the best gen4 drives available, and at that sale is a better deal than a WD 850X. If you wanted to save the price of a sandwich or two, a WD Black SN580 is $20 cheaper. It's slower, but if you're doing desktop and games stuff you will absolutely never notice the difference between them.
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Mar 28, 2025 01:01
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Klyith posted:The T500 is among the best gen4 drives available, and at that sale is a better deal than a WD 850X. Thanks everyone for suggestions. E: Strike that, I cancelled that order and went with the T500 after all, I do some development work more than just games so idk if I'll "need" that extra sliver of performance but if it's a better product for a better price I have to try it QR Code Geass fucked around with this message at 02:13 on Mar 28, 2025 |
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Mar 28, 2025 01:27
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If it hasn't already shipped, there's also the SK Hynix Platinum P41 2TB that's comparable to the T500 and SN850X, currently on sale for $130. Just make sure you flash the firmware. e: I didn't have time to elaborate when I posted, but basically unless you have a very demanding and specific type of storage workload, you'll never notice the difference between the best affordable PCIe 4.0 NVMe drives: Samsung 990 Pro, WD Black SN850X, SK Hynix Platinum P41, Crucial T500, Kingston Fury Renegade, etc. Each of them has advantages and disadvantages depending on your workload, but if you don't need hundreds of GB per minute back-to-back, full-drive fill speed, or absolute maximum random read/write performance, there is simply no meaningful difference between these drives. Some of them hold their performance better as they fill up, but I'm not sure how significant that is because few review sites test with varying drive fill. All of the real-world tests that various benchmarking sites perform with these drives show <1% and <100 millisecond differences in outcomes. The only real-world test I've seen with significantly different outcomes is file search/indexing, where the Hynix P41 and 990 Pro really excel. Ultimately, unless you have a very specific type of storage workload that might see a 10-15% improvement with a particular one of these drives, you should get whichever is the best value currently. mikey fucked around with this message at 04:20 on Mar 28, 2025 |
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Mar 28, 2025 03:34
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So, uh, I assume your SSD prices are going up
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Apr 2, 2025 20:34
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You clearly forgot to read the last parts of today's schedule 
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Apr 2, 2025 23:18
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I think analysts were already projecting nand prices to “stabilize” not sure if that took tariffs into account though. Maybe Micron will be eating good??? The NAND market is high cyclical for this general reason: Vendors: “prices are crap and we aren’t making a profit. Better cut back production and capital expenditures next year” Also Vendors: “hey there aren’t enough drives on the market now and prices are rebounding this is great. But we cut back production and can’t meet demand let’s start cranking up our capital expenditures next year” Also also vendors: “oh crap we cranked up production too much and now the market is flooded and nand prices are cratering. We should cut back production and capital expenditures again” Flash memory summit happy hours and parties are basically crap in odd years WhyteRyce fucked around with this message at 01:09 on Apr 3, 2025 |
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Apr 2, 2025 23:55
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Sorry to cross post, I figured this wasn't really worth a new thread, I wasn't sure if it belonged here or in the general Windows software thread. The lovely tariffs announcement that might further raise Aussie electronics prices, has me thinking if I should do this ASAP. Addendum to my "not really a great plan I know" laptop SSD upgrade with Windows 10 IoT Enterprise LTSC idea listed here I just discovered a generous voucher a friend gave me for a local Australian electronics company, so that a 2tb Samsung Evo 870 2.5inch SSD will currently only cost me $50 AUD or $31 USD  Since I already have a spare 500gb m.2 drive, my plan looks to be a bit better, purely financially speaking, that is. Even if I saved up for a new computer, I'd still install W10 IoT Enterprise LTSC on it anyway. I know these questions are dumb, I'm overthinking things probably, but better safe than sorry! My current plan is to replace the original 128gb m.2 SSD that has Windows installed on it with the 500gb m.2 I already have, then use the voucher for a discounted 2tb Evo SSD to replace the 1tb mechanical HDD I have in my laptop. * Due to work & most future employers insisting on only using MS Office programs for various (thanks public & private health companies!), I plan on having a copy of non-Copilot Office via the MAS set-up tool. I'll be using the MAS tool method also for the W10 Enterprise version. Should I have Office on a separate flash drive to Windows LTSC, just in case there's any compatibility issues getting them activated via the MAS method? * I've never done a fresh Windows install on a dual hard drive set-up before. Should I only do the W10 install on the main m.2 drive first, then once it's all sorted, simply plug in the 2.5 inch SSD & have it be recognized as a D: to avoid any problems? Or it really doesn't matter nowadays? * I'll do doing a full factory reset on my existing C: Windows m.2 SSD & the D: mechanical HDD before I swap. I've never done a factory reset on a dual Windows set-up: I assume it's just the same as the old standard factory reset method since the 2000s? Anything I should be aware of before formatting? I'll keep both the formatted old SSD and mechanical HDD purely as emergency spares. I've had this laptop since 2018, I don't know what the lifespan of old laptop mechanical hard drives is actually... * I'll be downloading W10 IoT LTSC and key stuff (all the factory wifi, keyboard drivers, the latest graphics card drivers etc) on separate flash drives, plus a few miscellaneous programs like Firefox, my VPN, WinRAR. Am I missing anything really obvious that I should have offline access to, in case internet access is screwy?
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Apr 3, 2025 08:59
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WhyteRyce posted:I think analysts were already projecting nand prices to “stabilize” not sure if that took tariffs into account though. Demand plays a good role in the cycle too. PC refresh, data center cycling, all that. End of windows 10 is probably a big factor in this upswing, for example. Micron makes their nand in Singapore. Lower tariff than South Korea I guess.
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Apr 4, 2025 02:38
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Livo posted:* Due to work & most future employers insisting on only using MS Office programs for various (thanks public & private health companies!), I plan on having a copy of non-Copilot Office via the MAS set-up tool. I'll be using the MAS tool method also for the W10 Enterprise version. Should I have Office on a separate flash drive to Windows LTSC, just in case there's any compatibility issues getting them activated via the MAS method? Livo posted:* I've never done a fresh Windows install on a dual hard drive set-up before. Should I only do the W10 install on the main m.2 drive first, then once it's all sorted, simply plug in the 2.5 inch SSD & have it be recognized as a D: to avoid any problems? Or it really doesn't matter nowadays? Livo posted:* I'll do doing a full factory reset on my existing C: Windows m.2 SSD & the D: mechanical HDD before I swap. I've never done a factory reset on a dual Windows set-up: I assume it's just the same as the old standard factory reset method since the 2000s? Anything I should be aware of before formatting? I'll keep both the formatted old SSD and mechanical HDD purely as emergency spares. I've had this laptop since 2018, I don't know what the lifespan of old laptop mechanical hard drives is actually... Livo posted:* I'll be downloading W10 IoT LTSC and key stuff (all the factory wifi, keyboard drivers, the latest graphics card drivers etc) on separate flash drives, plus a few miscellaneous programs like Firefox, my VPN, WinRAR. Am I missing anything really obvious that I should have offline access to, in case internet access is screwy? If you haven't already, I'd recommend using Rufus to create the boot media, which gives you the option to natively bypass the online/account requirement (if that's still a thing in Enterprise LTSC) and automatically create a local account.
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Apr 4, 2025 02:50
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Since I'm not much of an SSD-knower, I figured I'd link this HOTS thread for some confirmation that this guy's drive is in fact on its way out and in need of replacement, given the problems + SMART values.
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Apr 4, 2025 03:02
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mikey posted:Yes, definitely only have the OS drive connected when installing any newer Windows, as it loves to put the boot partition on a random SATA drive. They've made no effort to fix that, even with W11. IMO on a UEFI system that doesn't have another copy of windows / EFI volume on a different drive, this is actually pretty solved these days. UEFI means windows can directly communicate with the bios and there's much less randomness. If it's very easy to unplug the other drives during install, like on a desktop, then sure might as well. But in a laptop that might involve opening up the backshell with plastic retention clip in order to install drives. Doing that twice rather than once is a huge PITA. (Same goes for the idea of swapping old drives back to wipe them.) mikey posted:Since I'm not much of an SSD-knower, I figured I'd link this HOTS thread for some confirmation that this guy's drive is in fact on its way out and in need of replacement, given the problems + SMART values. Yes, that drive is toast and should be RMA'd. I would generally recommend CrystalDisk rather than that Hard Disk Sentinel program, for a more succinct and straightforward view on SMART data.
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Apr 4, 2025 03:24
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mikey posted:Install location for something like Office shouldn't affect activation at all, unless I'm misunderstanding and you're talking about dual-booting two different Windows versions?  Thank you for the advice, I really appreciate it. Good tip about the Ethernet cable, I'll have to dig up one I have lying around, just in case. For the Office question, I meant "Have Windows 10 IoT and nothing else on one flash drive, MS Office 2024 without Copilot and nothing else on another flash drive." I don't know how antsy/tempermental Microsoft would get with Windows & Office on the one flash drive. It shouldn't make any difference, but with the way Microsoft has been operating lately, it wouldn't be surprising. Dumb question: is Rufus fine with me using a Enterprise .iso obtained from the MAS Script website, or is it more a "We only properly tested it with official non-MAS activation methods for Windows 10/11 only from a specific Microsoft server. No guarantees if you use the MAS activation method for MAS sourced .isos." thing? Klyith posted:IMO on a UEFI system that doesn't have another copy of windows / EFI volume on a different drive, this is actually pretty solved these days. UEFI means windows can directly communicate with the bios and there's much less randomness. That was my thought process with swapping older drives back in to format them: I currently only have this laptop and nothing else. I know it's very, very, risky to format them beforehand in case things screw up. That being said, I only have mostly photos, music, documents & some old programs to copy over from external drives, nothing that would greatly benefit from a hard drive cloning program.
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Apr 4, 2025 07:56
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Livo posted:Thank you for the advice, I really appreciate it. Good tip about the Ethernet cable, I'll have to dig up one I have lying around, just in case. For the Office question, I meant "Have Windows 10 IoT and nothing else on one flash drive, MS Office 2024 without Copilot and nothing else on another flash drive." I don't know how antsy/tempermental Microsoft would get with Windows & Office on the one flash drive. It shouldn't make any difference, but with the way Microsoft has been operating lately, it wouldn't be surprising. I guess I'd put it on your other USB drive if it fits, or download it separately after getting Windows up and running, just to avoid any issues I might not be aware of, having never tried that. Livo posted:Dumb question: is Rufus fine with me using a Enterprise .iso obtained from the MAS Script website, or is it more a "We only properly tested it with official non-MAS activation methods for Windows 10/11 only from a specific Microsoft server. No guarantees if you use the MAS activation method for MAS sourced .isos." thing?
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Apr 4, 2025 08:51
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Cheers, I'll check out Rufus this weekend, so I'm hopefully ready for everything once the new SSD arrives. I'll keep the Windows only & Office only on separate drives just to be on the safe side.
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Apr 4, 2025 09:47
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What is the benefit of faster ssd's btw? I have a 1TB 850 Evo which is SATA; 500/500MB/s. Then a 3.84TB pcie3 enterprise ssd, 2.9/1.4GB/s R/W. Then a 2TB 990 Pro which is pcie4, 6.4/6.4GB/s. The diff between pcie3 and pcie4 ssd is marginal, when loading a 20-30GB model with LM studio, some kind of single core cpu processing seems to be the main bottleneck when watching task manager. It feels like the loading speed doesn't depend that much on the ssd drive. So what applications on a home PC require these faster pcie4 and pcie5 ssd's? (where the SSD speed is the bottleneck) Ihmemies fucked around with this message at 12:27 on Apr 4, 2025 |
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Apr 4, 2025 12:25
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it can improve your steam install speed, because read/write ends up being the bottleneck. i think my download cap was around ~300 mbps before i moved steam to the nvme. this was for a samsung 860 evo on pcie 3 moving to a 980 pro fwiw
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Apr 4, 2025 12:34
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kliras posted:it can improve your steam install speed, because read/write ends up being the bottleneck. i think my download cap was around ~300 mbps before i moved steam to the nvme. this was for a samsung 860 evo on pcie 3 moving to a 980 pro fwiw Something was seriously wrong, that's the ballpark of a usb2 hard disk.
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Apr 4, 2025 13:26
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Ihmemies posted:So what applications on a home PC require these faster pcie4 and pcie5 ssd's? (where the SSD speed is the bottleneck) bigger numbers mean bigger penis kliras posted:it can improve your steam install speed, because read/write ends up being the bottleneck. i think my download cap was around ~300 mbps before i moved steam to the nvme. this was for a samsung 860 evo on pcie 3 moving to a 980 pro fwiw an 860 Evo is a sata drive but also yes I'd second something being wrong here, like the drive being too full or TRIM not being active. or faulty hardware.
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Apr 4, 2025 13:41
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Anyways I bought the 990 Pro because it was quite cheap and available. My old 500GB C drive was getting too small, I think it had only 30GB left. Swapping nvme's is a pain, since all the slots are behind a GPU. I think I rebooted my computer like 3 times before I found the right toggle to enable iGPU from bios. Then I shut down the pc and removed the NIC and GPU. Swapped the new ssd to slot 1, old to slot 2. Booted and used Samsung magician to clone the data, it worked really well. Another power off, remove the old drive, install GPU and NIC back etc... so very fiddly. I miss the ease of sata SSD's, but I understand, the connection is too slow these days. Although you can transfer 10GB+ via an USB, why they couldn't design something like that to replace SATA ports? And now I need to monitor my GPU's power cable again so it doesn't end up melting after fiddling with it... at least it hadn't melted yet.
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Apr 4, 2025 19:13
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Ihmemies posted:What is the benefit of faster ssd's btw? I have a 1TB 850 Evo which is SATA; 500/500MB/s. Then a 3.84TB pcie3 enterprise ssd, 2.9/1.4GB/s R/W. Then a 2TB 990 Pro which is pcie4, 6.4/6.4GB/s. The diff between pcie3 and pcie4 ssd is marginal, when loading a 20-30GB model with LM studio, some kind of single core cpu processing seems to be the main bottleneck when watching task manager. It feels like the loading speed doesn't depend that much on the ssd drive. Good PCIe 4 NVMes can have really fast random read/write speeds, and you might notice a time difference in something like file search or indexing, but that has less to do with the interface/max transfer speed and more to do with more mature controller and flash technology (nobody's making SATA SSDs with cutting-edge controllers anymore, for obvious reasons). PCIe 5 is nerd number wank for now, and the only difference between a $600 Samsung 9100 Pro and a $260 990 Pro is moderately faster copy speeds for multi-hundred GB files. Ihmemies posted:I miss the ease of sata SSD's, but I understand, the connection is too slow these days. Although you can transfer 10GB+ via an USB, why they couldn't design something like that to replace SATA ports?
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Apr 4, 2025 23:51
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Ihmemies posted:What is the benefit of faster ssd's btw? There isn't enough benefit to give reason to replace existing SATA SSDs. But there also isn't much reason to buy new 2.5" SATA drives, the design has become obsolete. Just check what is available on the market, Verkkokauppa.com has four models of 2+TB 2.5" SSDs with cheapest being 190€, while they have 50 NVMe drives starting from 115€. Why would manufacturers make SATA drives that require large plastic case, screws and external cables, when a M.2 is just a single small PCB. There are very few people that require more storage space than they fit with just M.2 drivers, and many of those have a NAS.
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Apr 5, 2025 02:31
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I can't even get decent SATA SSDs at decent prices here anymore, unless I wanna deal those with chinese made NAND and controllers (i have a $40 1TB fanxiang branded and its shockingly fast in crystalmark and so far it doesnt give me anything problems as an external drive, but I won't use it for anything critical)
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Apr 5, 2025 03:28
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Is there actually any meaningful difference in reliability between NAND/controller manufacturers? I tried to do some searching, and came up with nothing concrete whatsoever. Either nobody is actually tracking, or there's no detectable differences in failure rates. When it comes to drives, I'm sure companies like Fanxiang aren't putting the same level of effort into Q/A as Samsung, but I'd mostly avoid them for the lack of support outside of China. All SSDs can fail suddenly and totally, even Samsung's (two just this week in the tech support forum), but if the company's support is reliable you can always get a new drive under warranty. Backups are always your sole insurance against data loss, but if you're dropping $100+ on a drive, it's worth getting a brand that you can actually RMA.
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Apr 5, 2025 04:39
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mikey posted:Is there actually any meaningful difference in reliability between NAND/controller manufacturers? I tried to do some searching, and came up with nothing concrete whatsoever. Either nobody is actually tracking, or there's no detectable differences in failure rates. For controllers, the big difference is in support. Everyone will have firmware bugs on occasion. The question is what happens afterwards. Do you get a prompt firmware update that you can install easily? Do you get an eventual firmware update that also wipes the drive? (On a recent drive no less!) Or do you get crickets? Earlier ITT I had to retract a recommendation because I learned that the drive in question used an innogrit controller with a history of minor problems and crickets. For NAND, the meaningful difference is binning and QC. YMTC in china can make perfectly good chips. Micron and Kioxia can have bad wafers. If you're buying a cheaper drive they're using cheaper flash which is probably coming from cheaper bins. If you buy a drive from one of the big 4 (Samsung, WD/Kioxia, Micron, SK Hynix) they're using their own flash and have the inside track on binning, QC, and price. But both of those are a difference in the margins, not some sort of major difference. We haven't seen a drive or brand with a obviously bad failure rate since OCZ, and even OCZ drives were less failure-prone than the IBM Deathstar. My OCZ still works! So yeah, I think the most important thing for quality is good RMAs. I'd want a pretty substantial discount if I was buying from a chinese company with marginal US presence, where getting an RMA might be dicey. Heck, for me that's often true for brands like teamgroup or adata -- you can get RMAs but there are lots of bad stories and discontent out there.
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Apr 5, 2025 13:35
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mikey posted:Costs are probably too high to be viable for consumer use, while NVMes are actually cheaper than SATA - just a PCB that plugs right into a header. economies of scale aside, NVMe drives are cheaper to make anyway because they don't need DRAM to perform well like SATA SSDs did
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Apr 5, 2025 15:22
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Klyith posted:So yeah, I think the most important thing for quality is good RMAs. I'd want a pretty substantial discount if I was buying from a chinese company with marginal US presence, where getting an RMA might be dicey. Heck, for me that's often true for brands like teamgroup or adata -- you can get RMAs but there are lots of bad stories and discontent out there. But then after it arrived, I double-checked TPU's SSD database, and found out that in the last month or two it's been swapped to QLC. It doesn't really matter for my current use (storage drive for games and small media files that read too slowly off a HDD), and the price was great, but gently caress. Should have gone with the identical TeamGroup MP44 for $20 more, because they actually tier their SSD models by flash type. Caveat emptor I guess. It was the Silicon Power US75 for those looking to avoid the same outcome.
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Apr 6, 2025 01:29
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i also buy 512GB transcend SATA SSDs at work which is a exact clone of the MX500 under the case but priced 40% lower per GB for some reason
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Apr 6, 2025 02:13
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mikey posted:Caveat emptor I guess. This is primarily for media/game storage, so I don't care too much about the 5% loss of peak read/write performance from QLC (which would put it about equal to the MP44), it's more about the bait-and-switch to mystery QLC flash 6 months after the drive's review cycle ended, resulting in zero performance or longevity data. What little I can find from user reports with the new hardware suggests that the write performance tanks badly as the drive passes 50-75% full, which is definitely not the case for the MP44 or NM790. Is that a factor of using QLC flash that I've never heard of before? Do I try the MP44 for $20 more even though it seems to have a relatively high failure rate, or go with the Chinese company wearing the skin of a former US brand Buffalo Bill-style, because their drive has seemingly better performance and reliability than similar options and adequate support at this point? The Samsung 990 Evo Plus is at the upper end of the same price range, and would solve the support and reliability concerns, but the read and write performance are still considerably worse than even the QLC 4 TB Maxio/YTMC drives at queue depths under 256 for all block sizes under 8MB. Come on Samsung, get your poo poo together.
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Apr 8, 2025 02:06
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