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Combat Pretzel
Jun 23, 2004

No, seriously... what kurds?!

I think the main issue with data getting fragmented on the file system level is that the MFT grows, the more fragments there are.

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Klyith
Aug 3, 2007

GBS Pledge Week


Combat Pretzel posted:

I think the main issue with data getting fragmented on the file system level is that the MFT grows, the more fragments there are.

true but it seems like it'd take real effort to get so bad that it actually became an issue. 1kb can fit quite a few pointers.

see this nicely illustrated and easy to understand ms blog about file records

derk
Sep 24, 2004


I have a dead 840 Evo drive that refuses to show up in bios or anything. I have tried powering it for 30 minutes without data hooked up a few times, still to no avail. is it just done for?

redeyes
Sep 14, 2002
I LOVE THE WHITE STRIPES!

derk posted:

I have a dead 840 Evo drive that refuses to show up in bios or anything. I have tried powering it for 30 minutes without data hooked up a few times, still to no avail. is it just done for?

Probably. Try leaving it powered for a day or 2 with no data. If after that you get nothing, its a goner. On the other hand SSDs are ultra cheap right now. Great time for an upgrade.

CronoGamer
May 15, 2004

why did this happen

Is Silicon Power a trusted brand for SSDs? Newegg is offering a 512GB 2.5" SSD for $65 today.

https://www.newegg.com/Product/Prod...N82E16820301385

A quick google showed decent reviews for it (4 and 5 stars), but I haven't heard of them so I wanted to see if that's a worrying sign.

Anime Schoolgirl
Nov 28, 2002

~perfect~
battlebrother





SP is one of those brands like Team Group where you put steam games on, but don't trust for important poo poo because their warranty coverage is always a big question mark

derk
Sep 24, 2004


redeyes posted:

Probably. Try leaving it powered for a day or 2 with no data. If after that you get nothing, its a goner. On the other hand SSDs are ultra cheap right now. Great time for an upgrade.

Good thing is it is not mine. I don't own any SSDs yet. It belonged to my cousin he has had it for about 5 years maybe 6. He already replaced it and i was just trying to resurrect it and get data off it if possible and maybe using it myself if it still worked.

SweetMercifulCrap!
Jan 28, 2012


Is there any benefit to doing a fresh install of Windows onto an SSD over migrating the OS from an HDD? I used Samsungís migration tool with what was already a pretty fresh Windows 10 installation, so if there were a benefit it wouldnít be too big of a deal to just do another fresh installation.

The Iron Rose
May 12, 2012

Cat Army


fresh installs are easier and simpler and it's always good to do what amounts to a full cleaning of your local setup.

but it really doesn't matter too much. You can always use clonezilla or macrium or Acronis or FOG one of the billion different tools to rip and deploy an image.

isndl
May 2, 2012
I WON A CONTEST IN TG AND ALL I GOT WAS THIS CUSTOM TITLE

The only thing you need to worry about is making sure Windows realizes it's on a SSD now and that it needs to change the maintenance routine (stop defragging, use TRIM). Windows 7 needed you to run the Experience Index but I think 10 handles it automatically now.

Klyith
Aug 3, 2007

GBS Pledge Week


SweetMercifulCrap! posted:

Is there any benefit to doing a fresh install of Windows onto an SSD over migrating the OS from an HDD? I used Samsungís migration tool with what was already a pretty fresh Windows 10 installation, so if there were a benefit it wouldnít be too big of a deal to just do another fresh installation.

A minor one: SSD have a small performance gain when they align the file system's allocation units with the SSD 4kb pages*. I think windows 10 is now smart enough to do that automatically at install on SSDs (it's been 3/3 correct for me). I don't know if HDD partitions migrated to a SSD would be. I suppose if anyone would pay attention to something like that it would be the SSD's own toolset, but I dunno.

*note this does not mean 4kb allocation units, just that the allocation units are never straddling the boarder between 2 pages.

here is a calculator to check alignment

MREBoy
Mar 14, 2005
MREs - They're whats for breakfast, lunch AND dinner !

I was given an older laptop for free & replacing the current 5400 rpm drive with an SSD would definitely be an improvement, so that SP drive a few posts up is tempting. I know nothing of SP as a brand, and $20 bucks more gets you an MX500 or 860 EVO so IDK right now.

Gallatin
Sep 20, 2004


Pillbug

MREBoy posted:

I was given an older laptop for free & replacing the current 5400 rpm drive with an SSD would definitely be an improvement, so that SP drive a few posts up is tempting. I know nothing of SP as a brand, and $20 bucks more gets you an MX500 or 860 EVO so IDK right now.

I have an old laptop just sitting here (Acer Aspire 7740 from 2012) and I'm going to look into it.

oohhboy
Jun 8, 2013

W o o F


Just pay the extra $20. If you can't I think you have bigger problems.

I have an old laptop from 2013 and is a champ with an SSD. If the laptop was a poo poo box when it came out the SSD isn't going to change much.

Klyith
Aug 3, 2007

GBS Pledge Week


The problem with that Silicon Power drive is that it's a complete mystery what's inside it. They say MLC NAND, which makes me think they're the remainder stock of drives with a 2014-era Phison controller and Toshiba 2d NAND. If so, those are old and weren't good even when they were new. However, it's fine for light applications -- where they completely fall apart is mixed random read & write stuff. If your laptop is just an internet / email / netflix / typing machine that's ok.

But they also say SLC cache, which is a real wtf. Maybe they're calling the DRAM a SLC cache? Because the old S60 at least had DRAM, which is why they're still better than an Adata SU650. But if it actually has a SLC cache this is yet another set of new grab-bag guts.


My biggest worry if I were considering buying it would be that they've been sitting around some unconditioned warehouse a few years of temperature swings.

Atomizer
Jun 24, 2007

Bote McBoteface. so what


MREBoy posted:

I was given an older laptop for free & replacing the current 5400 rpm drive with an SSD would definitely be an improvement, so that SP drive a few posts up is tempting. I know nothing of SP as a brand, and $20 bucks more gets you an MX500 or 860 EVO so IDK right now.

Any SSD will be an improvement over an HDD for the OS. If you want the bare minimum, look for a ~120 GB SSD for ~$25, or ~240 GB for ~$40. You don't need a Crucial or Samsung for an old laptop, but a drive with DRAM would be recommended. If you want more specifics let us know your budget, capacity desire, and use-case (will this be a spare or guest PC, etc.)

Klyith posted:

The problem with that Silicon Power drive is that it's a complete mystery what's inside it. They say MLC NAND, which makes me think they're the remainder stock of drives with a 2014-era Phison controller and Toshiba 2d NAND. If so, those are old and weren't good even when they were new. However, it's fine for light applications -- where they completely fall apart is mixed random read & write stuff. If your laptop is just an internet / email / netflix / typing machine that's ok.

But they also say SLC cache, which is a real wtf. Maybe they're calling the DRAM a SLC cache? Because the old S60 at least had DRAM, which is why they're still better than an Adata SU650. But if it actually has a SLC cache this is yet another set of new grab-bag guts.


My biggest worry if I were considering buying it would be that they've been sitting around some unconditioned warehouse a few years of temperature swings.

I wouldn't worry about the storage and temperature, but you're right that drives like the SP with variable internals can be hit-or-miss (but still probably fine for an old PC.)

The SLC cache thing is very common, actually; TLC drives in particular do this, where part of the flash (tens of GB generally) operates in SLC mode (or "pseudo SLC") as a secondary cache (with or without DRAM.) The new Intel 660p does this, with a variable SLC cache that gets folded into QLC mode as the drive fills (we talked about it in this thread.)

Binary Badger
Oct 11, 2005

Trolling Link for a decade


Any thoughts on the Crucial P1? Amazon has the 500 GB and 1TB at $110 and 220 respectively.

Read speed seems a little low but the write speed seems respectable. 2000 MB/sec read, 1700 MB/sec write, 200 TBW endurance.. and QLC NAND.

NVMe, PCIe Gen3X4..

Klyith
Aug 3, 2007

GBS Pledge Week


Atomizer posted:

The SLC cache thing is very common, actually; TLC drives in particular do this, where part of the flash (tens of GB generally) operates in SLC mode (or "pseudo SLC") as a secondary cache (with or without DRAM.)

Oh yeah, but the Phison S8 that was in the original S60 (see review I linked) definitely did not. What I was getting at is it implies a new mystery-meat controller if it has a SLC cache, or a wrong spec description.


Binary Badger posted:

Any thoughts on the Crucial P1? Amazon has the 500 GB and 1TB at $110 and 220 respectively.

NVMe, PCIe Gen3X4.. and QLC NAND.

I have a hard time imagining the case where you actually need NVMe yet don't care about the downsides of QLC. 100TB write endurance is fine for home consumers, and as this thread repeats endlessly home consumers don't need NVMe. The target audience seems to be benchmarks.

I'm not scared of QLC and would definitely buy a QLC drive in the future, given a appropriate discount vs TLC and evidence that it has equal data integrity. I look forward to a 2 or 3 TB QLC drive replacing my spinning rust. I don't see NVMe or a premium price anywhere in that scenario.

Atomizer
Jun 24, 2007

Bote McBoteface. so what


Yeah the Adata SX8200 is regularly around $100/200 for the 500/1000 GB capacities with the frequent 15% off discounts on Rakuten, so I personally would go with those instead of the P1.

As far as QLC is concerned, it definitely needs to get into the high-capacity and/or low-cost segments to be worth considering, and yields have been a significant issue. There's little reason to consider a 500 GB 660p for $100 (or even $10-20 less than that; it's $95 on Newegg right now,) when you can get a WD Blue for the same price or slightly less, and the Intel drive only has its best performance when nearly empty (i.e. it drops to <SATA SSD speeds and even HDD speeds as it fills up.) The 1 TB version is over $200 (so see the SX8200 above,) and the 2 TB one is $350. If I need 2 TB of SS storage I'm going with the Micron 1100 2.5 SATA and saving $100!

It only makes sense if a ~500 GB QLC drive was <$60 or so, 1 TB <$100 and so on because TLC is better at the same price/capacity, or alternately you could get a drive in a given form-factor that wasn't available with any less than QLC. For example, you can't apparently get any m.2 drive with a capacity greater than 2 TB, so a larger QLC drive would make sense for certain users, or alternately a 2 TB drive at notably <$350 (compared to the nearest non-QLC alternative) would have a market.

redeyes
Sep 14, 2002
I LOVE THE WHITE STRIPES!

You guys aren't really getting the best parts of NVMe. It was designed for flash storage. It does away with the normal SATA commands and has a direct pipe to the nand, so to speak. It is much more efficient for a given NAND speed. There is actually a perceivable performance increase if you know where to look. Just talking day to day stuff. All im saying is, get it if you can afford it.

Laserface
Dec 24, 2004

Sipping harsh elixir,
the ice above us melting fast


I put a NVMe drive in my dads NUC. all he does is email and Garmin GPS updates.

it was more because it was available and not that expensive and the computer will probably out live him at this rate.

isndl
May 2, 2012
I WON A CONTEST IN TG AND ALL I GOT WAS THIS CUSTOM TITLE

redeyes posted:

You guys aren't really getting the best parts of NVMe. It was designed for flash storage. It does away with the normal SATA commands and has a direct pipe to the nand, so to speak. It is much more efficient for a given NAND speed. There is actually a perceivable performance increase if you know where to look. Just talking day to day stuff. All im saying is, get it if you can afford it.

Is this the SSD equivalent of an audiophile? Do we need to do double blind tests?

TITTIEKISSER69
Mar 19, 2005

I'm here to kiss tittiess and win football games!


Pillbug

I replaced my SATA cables with straightened out wire hanger and my performance is a little warmer.

BobHoward
Feb 13, 2012

The only thing white people deserve is a bullet to their empty skull


isndl posted:

Is this the SSD equivalent of an audiophile? Do we need to do double blind tests?

Their phrasing is awkward and over the top (it is not a direct pipe to NAND) but there are real performance benefits to NVME.

Basically the thing to understand is that the design for how a SATA command is created, submitted to a device, processed, and results returned to the software stack owes a great deal to the ancient 1980s Seagate ST-506 HDD controller, a card designed for CPUs that ran at single digit MHz and 5.25Ē full height HDDs. This design legacy means the interaction between device and host software is more complicated than it needs to be, and the protocol is inherently high latency.

In the SATA era the ATA standards body came up with bandaids to partially address these problems, such as NCQ. However, itís still all designed for HDDs, e.g. NCQ canít track more than 32 commands in flight and only supports a single queue. At the end of the day SATA has a theoretical upper limit of 200K IOPS, with a relatively high minimum latency.

NVME radically simplifies device to host communication, supports 64K commands per queue and up to 64K queues, and more. You can push IOPs to 1M and beyond, and command latency to 1us (ie limited by PCIe latency). It is a vastly superior protocol for talking to a SSD. Which it ought to be since thatís its whole reason to exist.

How relevant is all this to everyday desktop computing? It helps, but itís not as big a leap as getting off a HDD and onto a SSD in the first place. Itís most beneficial for enterprise use of SSDs where people tend to care way more about super high IOPs.

In the end itíll all be NVME. There isnít anything inherently more expensive about NVME as an interface, itís only more expensive to the end user due to economies of scale and extracting more profit by segmenting the market. Once thereís a high enough density of PCs with M.2 sockets the volume will start to shift towards NVME and prices should come down. (Part of that will just be manufacturers bothering to make cheap models for the NVME interface. Today they donít because too many people who want a cheap SSD have nowhere to attach a m.2 PCIe.)

isndl
May 2, 2012
I WON A CONTEST IN TG AND ALL I GOT WAS THIS CUSTOM TITLE

BobHoward posted:

Their phrasing is awkward and over the top (it is not a direct pipe to NAND) but there are real performance benefits to NVME.

Oh, there's no question that it's a better protocol. What I do question is whether it's "a perceivable performance increase [for] day to day stuff", when day to day stuff is not hitting the limits of SATA bandwidth so you're left with latency differences measured in milliseconds.

Atomizer
Jun 24, 2007

Bote McBoteface. so what


Manufacturers are still shipping new PCs with the OS on a HDD. Let's get everyone on SSDs first before worrying about getting them all transitioned to NVMe.

orcane
Jun 13, 2012



Fun Shoe

isndl posted:

Oh, there's no question that it's a better protocol. What I do question is whether it's "a perceivable performance increase [for] day to day stuff", when day to day stuff is not hitting the limits of SATA bandwidth so you're left with latency differences measured in milliseconds.

Maybe they assume the "average" user is unpacking/compressing archives all day.

BIG HEADLINE
Jun 13, 2006

Make your move...'cause mine's gonna be ugly.

So evidently the one-two punch of the relatively cheap Crucial P1 and the fact that the Corsair MP510 bursts the gently caress out of the 970 EVO at a lower price has Samsung all shook, since the 500GB 970 EVO's $140 now at Amazon and $132 with a promo code at Newegg.

"NVMe drive now only costs 125% of what it reasonably should because it has 'Samsung' stamped on it...news at 11."

BIG HEADLINE fucked around with this message at Oct 18, 2018 around 08:00

oohhboy
Jun 8, 2013

W o o F


Wouldn't compressing and decompressing is going to be CPU limited unless you're spinning rust?

Lockback
Sep 2, 2006

All days are nights to see till I see thee; and nights bright days when dreams do show me thee.


Right now you can get the ADATA SX8200 NVME 960GB for $189 with $36 Rakuten bucks back, making it effectively $153 if you ever plan on buying from Rakuten ever again. That is right in line with what most decent 1TB SSDs cost. The price premium of NVME is coming down fast too. The "NVME is a waste for home users" is aging rapidly.

https://slickdeals.net/f/12139867-x...d?src=frontpage

Palladium
May 8, 2012


Lockback posted:

The "NVME is a waste for home users" is aging rapidly.

Only if you are ignoring SSDs above 1TB. The Micron 1100 2TB sometimes go as low as $210.

BIG HEADLINE
Jun 13, 2006

Make your move...'cause mine's gonna be ugly.

I was wondering why so many high-end Z390 boards were including twin U.2 ports: https://www.theregister.co.uk/AMP/2...sung_7llp_ssd_/

WhyteRyce
Dec 30, 2001



I think dual port is for high availability (connect to multiple hosts) not high bandwidth

WhyteRyce fucked around with this message at Oct 20, 2018 around 23:39

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priznat
Jul 7, 2009

Let's get drunk and kiss each other all night.

WhyteRyce posted:

I think dual port is for high availability (connect to multiple hosts) not high bandwidth

Yah exactly. Failover etc. Usually the drives can be configured for single port x4 pcie as well as the 2x2, usually through a different SKU.

Gen4 too trying to figure out how the 12GB /s read comes about though, thatíd be at like x8 Gen4 width (theoretical max line rate is about 15.7GB/s). x4 would be more in the sub 8GB/s range.

priznat fucked around with this message at Oct 20, 2018 around 23:56

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