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Stickman
Feb 1, 2004

much, much larger than your hat, but not as large as the moon
-DNA


coke posted:

Some posters still thinks NVME/ssd is a gimmick for most users.

The benefit to gaming is pretty small right now - it's not even close to comparable to the spinny disk -> sdd move. NVMe being a good recommendation is more about falling prices and competition closing the price gap and future potential than about noticeable gains.

Of course once you start getting into other applications, it's a different story.

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Stickman
Feb 1, 2004

much, much larger than your hat, but not as large as the moon
-DNA


Lambert posted:

It also makes for a much neater build, no SATA & power cable to manage.

This is a M.2 form factor advantage, though, rather than being directly tied NVMe.

That said, it's tough to recommend a SATA M.2 SSD to anyone building a new system - there's a good chance they'll want a NVMe drive at some point in the next 5 years and it'll be much more convenient to have free M.2 slot(s) when the time comes.

Stickman
Feb 1, 2004

much, much larger than your hat, but not as large as the moon
-DNA


If you're thinking about the 500GB version and have a free M.2 slot, the NVME HP ex920 500GB is currently $90 on Newegg.

Stickman
Feb 1, 2004

much, much larger than your hat, but not as large as the moon
-DNA


KingKapalone posted:

I currently have an 850 EVO SATA III drive in my gaming PC. Are regular SATA M.2 drives the same speed as their 2.5" counterparts?

Would the only upgrade be an NVMe drive?

Any standout deals right now? I see the 500GB 970 Evo for $117 on amazon. There's also the 1TB 860 Evo for $128 but maybe that's no faster than my 850?

I'm aware I'll need an add-on card plus a modified bios for an NVMe to work with my Z87 mobo.

Yes, SATA performance is the same regardless of connection format.

The HP ex920 512GB is $90 at Newegg, but only for the next 2 hours! Prices are expected to continue to drop for a while, though, so we'll likely see these prices (or better) again in the future.

Stickman
Feb 1, 2004

much, much larger than your hat, but not as large as the moon
-DNA


priznat posted:

M.2 standoff screws are the most easily loseable screws and I hate them so much.

Motherboards that have those nylon standoffs that keeps the plug attached with a little rope are the best.

Wait, other people don't duct tape a baggie of screws to the inside of their case?

I'm kidding, but now that PSU shrouds are a thing I'm seriously considering it!

Stickman
Feb 1, 2004

much, much larger than your hat, but not as large as the moon
-DNA


BIG HEADLINE posted:

I have to give Inland/Micro Center credit - the Premium drive is not cluttered with an ostentatious "WARRANTY VOID IF REMOVED" sticker - the controller chip is naked to the world with a single sticker over one of the NAND chips. It's a basic drive and I bought one last night to go with my 12.1-flashed BPX Pro boot.

Now that 1TB Phison e12 drives are down in the $140-150 range, would you recommend them over the ex920 for primary boot drives on gaming machines or mid-range workstations? I/O benchmarks seem to favor e12 drives for large file performance, but the real-world gaming and responsiveness tests seem to slightly favor the ex920. I don't know enough about other features to say whether they'd factor into the decision, except that warranty and endurance seem similar?

Stickman
Feb 1, 2004

much, much larger than your hat, but not as large as the moon
-DNA


BIG HEADLINE posted:

The EX920's certainly a good drive, but I'd be hesitant to use them myself because there's always a risk that HP could pitch their "storage" segment (the consumer/enthusiast offerings specifically) overboard with a moment's notice, and then you're stuck with a warrantied drive that might not have concrete warranty support. It sounds like the E12s are getting a pretty decent following (I'm using two of them now), and the standardization of them (the Inland Premium drive uses the exact same packaging type as the BPX Pro save for the colors) across brands is encouraging.

I don't know what's keeping Seagate and their Firecuda 510, though. Only thing I can figure is that they made the mistake of announcing too early and now are in the process of flashing their entire run to 12.1, since while MyDigitalSSD and similar companies can get away with "sorry folks, this firmware update's destructive so plan accordingly," Seagate can't, since if little Billy hoses his PC updating his drive, he and all the other little Billys will scream that the drive is dogshit on Newegg and tank its score.

Thanks! The ex920 has been my go-to recommendation for the pc building thread because it's a good performer but nothing else could touch it on price (apart from the 660p, but that's a situational recommendation). It's good to see more high-performance options in that price range.

Stickman
Feb 1, 2004

much, much larger than your hat, but not as large as the moon
-DNA


Of course, right now if that nice sedan is $25k then supercars are $28-30k, except the one with the fancy name which goes for $65k despite being only marginally better than the $30k model.

Stickman
Feb 1, 2004

much, much larger than your hat, but not as large as the moon
-DNA


BIG HEADLINE posted:

It's not a perfect analogy.

The analogy is good, I just wanted to add that decent NVMe drives are so very close in price to good SATA SSDs right now.

Lambert posted:

Also, an HDD is a rusted out car wreck at the side of the road.

NVMe drives are barely more expensive these days, but make for a far cleaner setup with their lack of cabling etc. Few reasons not to get one.

HDDs definitely have a hole in muffler!

Stickman
Feb 1, 2004

much, much larger than your hat, but not as large as the moon
-DNA


teagone posted:

I'm looking to replace the 1TB spinner drive in my older gaming PC whose mainboard doesn't have any M.2 slots ó the SSD I'm looking to add would 100% only be used for game installs; already have an SSD OS drive.

For game installs an 860 QVO is fine. Pretty much the only gaming situation where SATA vs NVMe makes a significant difference is when a game unpacks a huge file during initial loading, which is pretty much just Doom 2016, and only for that initial load. The biggest disadvantage of QLC is it's reduced write endurance, but Samsung seems to have decently overprovisioned because they warrant it for a decent load (360 TBW / 3-years) and running games isn't a very write-heavy application. An extra $10 for an Adata su800 would get you an extra 2 years of warranty, but the QVO should be just fine for what you want to use it for.

Stickman
Feb 1, 2004

much, much larger than your hat, but not as large as the moon
-DNA


Silicon Motion's sm2262 and sm2262en are pretty good, too (HP ex920/ex950, Adata sx8200/Gammix 11/sx8200 Pro, Mushkin Pilot/Pilot-E).

Stickman fucked around with this message at 16:46 on Dec 2, 2019

Stickman
Feb 1, 2004

much, much larger than your hat, but not as large as the moon
-DNA


Unless you have professional applications that work with very large files, the real-world difference between NVMe and a SATA drive is pretty tiny. And if you decide to upgrade to an NVMe later SATA M.2 -> 2.5" enclosures are cheap, as are SATA M.2 -> USB 3.0 enclosures!

Stickman
Feb 1, 2004

much, much larger than your hat, but not as large as the moon
-DNA


Klyith posted:

Oh. my. god.

Adata's new SU750 (and amazon-exclusive 760) are powered by a Realtek controller chip. Realtek


The SU800 and Adata's various NVMe drives have a general thumbs-up from this thread, but a realtek-powered SSD is something I would rate as the strongest possible stay away. Like it's got really bad performance anyways, but even as a cheap media-storage HD replacement drive I don't trust realtek not to gently caress things up. Especially on their first try.

They're also dram-less. While that's less important than it used to be, it'll need save a lot more than $5 to be worth it over the su800.

Stickman
Feb 1, 2004

much, much larger than your hat, but not as large as the moon
-DNA


Xenomorph posted:

OK, so I can definitely notice the shortcomings with the new Samsung 860 QVO drives. No benchmark app or stress test required.

I've been setting up a 1TB QVO for someone, and when copying data I'm seeing speeds drop to as low as 40 MB/sec when reading & writing for sustained periods. This is less than half the speed I'd usually get when copying from magnetic hard drives.

Going by AnandTech's site (which noticed that "performance drops significantly"), apparently the 1TB QVO drive is rated at just 80 MB/sec when its cache is full (the 2TB/4TB QVO drives are rated at 160MB/sec, the old 250/500GB EVO drives were rated at 300 MB/sec, and the 1/2/4TB EVO drives were rated at 500MB/sec.)

With regular Desktop usage, I guess the drive seems fine, as IOPS / small file performance is great (when everything fits in cache). It's just after using SSDs all these years, I didn't expect to see such a speed regression like this.

This is true for all QLC drives - once the dynamic SLC cache is saturated they slow to hdd write speeds. The SLC cache is generally large enough that most people won't notice it outside of very large copy jobs, though - for the 860 QVO it starts at 42GB and bottoms out at 6GB (probably when the drive is >75% full, but I haven't found confirmation). Nearly every other usage scenario should be up with normal SATA speeds (or SATA+ in the case of the NVMe QLC drives).

Stickman fucked around with this message at 22:35 on Dec 6, 2019

Stickman
Feb 1, 2004

much, much larger than your hat, but not as large as the moon
-DNA


WhyteRyce posted:

Who ordered an ADATA drive during Black Friday
https://www.tomshardware.com/news/a...stead-of-sx8200

In case anyone got in on this, here's the relevant post on your legal rights. Per the FTC, If you are sent unsolicited items that you did not order, they are considered a gift and you are under no obligation to return them. If you don't receive the item you originally ordered, you are entitled to a refund. If you're feeling especially annoyed, just keep the sx8100 and request a refund on the sx8200 pro (or wait for it to ship in late December).

Stickman
Feb 1, 2004

much, much larger than your hat, but not as large as the moon
-DNA


Klyith posted:

As crap as this is, receiving the wrong product doesn't apply at all to "unsolicited merchandise". It was solicited, they just hosed up (or in this case, tried to gently caress customers over). Unsolicited merchandise laws protect you from being billed for something you didn't ask for.

There is no legal requirement to return an incorrect item that was accidentally sent to you, let alone an unsolicited bait-and-switch.

Itís a dick move to keep items when the mix-up was an accident, though.

E: I suspect that determination comes from ďunsolicited itemĒ regulations, but you might be correct and it comes from a different regulation. The end result is the same, though.

Stickman fucked around with this message at 17:22 on Dec 15, 2019

Stickman
Feb 1, 2004

much, much larger than your hat, but not as large as the moon
-DNA


I think proper good NVMes like the Sabrent Rocket and ex950 were down around $210 at Black Friday. SSD prices have gone up, though, so we probably won't see deals like that for a while. QLC drives like the 660p were $190-200 for a while, but have gone up $30+ since the beginning of January.

Stickman
Feb 1, 2004

much, much larger than your hat, but not as large as the moon
-DNA


Lungboy posted:

I'm happy to pay the extra £20 as long as there's an actual, noticeable benefit, but if an SN550 or whatever is so fast already that i won't be able to notice the difference then i'm happy with the cheaper option.

The SN550 looks like a solid budget NVMe drive - it doesn't quite have the performance of Phison e12 drives, but it's awfully close. It doesn't have a DRAM cache, but that doesn't hurt it too much and it's TLC so write speeds are still acceptable when it goes through it's 13GB SLC cache (only really applicable for very large writes, like drive cloning). Endurance and warranty are good.

You're unlikely to notice a difference between it and faster NVMe drives, and honestly, for most applications you would't even notice a difference between an NVMe and a SATA SSD. The cheapest SATA drive I'd recommend would only save you £5, though, so I'd probably stick with the SN550.

Stickman
Feb 1, 2004

much, much larger than your hat, but not as large as the moon
-DNA


Iíve seen at least one (old) article suggesting that the dynamic slc cache covers the overprovisioned area as well as currently unused space. If that were true, it seems possible that the minimum cache size would shrink over time as the overprovision shrinks, rather than allocating some fixed cache space thatís unavailable as an overprovision?

Seems like the sort of thing that someone might have tested on old drives with dynamic caches, but my brief googling hasnít turned anything up.

Stickman
Feb 1, 2004

much, much larger than your hat, but not as large as the moon
-DNA


Pretty much the only time you'd hit the cache limit doing standard consumer stuff is if you clone an old drive onto it. Even then, if it's a HDD you'll still probably be fine.

Stickman
Feb 1, 2004

much, much larger than your hat, but not as large as the moon
-DNA


repiv posted:

Depends on the type of M.2 drive - SATA M.2 drives are functionally equivalent to 2.5" SATA drives, just in a different form factor, but NVME M.2 drives can be significantly faster.

Iíd also add that ďcan be significant fasterĒ means faster for very specific workloads. While saturated sequential i/o is potentially several times faster, in most real workloads the performance gain is nothing or just a few percent. Games loading doesnít really get a noticeable boost.

Itís worth checking your typical tasks to see if any of them benefit from NVMe - if not, then itís really not worth paying a premium over SATA.

Stickman
Feb 1, 2004

much, much larger than your hat, but not as large as the moon
-DNA


repiv posted:

That's true of today, but ~500MB/sec SATA drives are probably going to show their age in a few years with the new consoles pushing games to design around >2.4GB/sec storage.

YMMV depending on whether you're putting games on the drive and how long you intend to use it though. SATA is absolutely fine for less intensive bulk data storage.

Todayís NVMe drives will still have all the same performance restrictions that that keep that extra performance from being utilized by games, though. Or do you think that games specifically designed around the new consoles will also be able to take advantage of existing PC NVMes?

E: And those look like soldered PCIe 4.0 NVMe drives, which are currently ridiculously expensive in PC space.

Stickman fucked around with this message at 17:51 on Mar 18, 2020

Stickman
Feb 1, 2004

much, much larger than your hat, but not as large as the moon
-DNA


Klyith posted:

No, that's not what's happening at all. Today's NVMe drives don't have any performance restrictions as far as games are concerned. The thing that stops them from improving over SATA drives with games is that for tasks where the storage system has measurable impact (level/world loads mostly), speed is being capped by processing the data rather than reading it. The CPU is too slow for the NVMe drive. If next-gen games get re-engineered based on NVMe performance and can actually use it, that will almost certainly be the same on PC.

OTOH whether consoles that have NVMe speed will actually use all that bandwidth and make SATA SSDs obsolete for games is an open question and I rather doubt it'll happen any time soon. There are reasons besides storage limitations for why Spiderman doesn't fly through the city at 100 miles per hour.

That makes sense - the domains where NVMe speed approach SATA are 4k random read and mixed i/o, which I suppose aren't very common in games.

Stickman
Feb 1, 2004

much, much larger than your hat, but not as large as the moon
-DNA


Also SATA M.2 -> 2.5Ē SATA enclosures are only $10 if you choose M.2 and want the slot for something else later.

Stickman
Feb 1, 2004

much, much larger than your hat, but not as large as the moon
-DNA


priznat posted:

Some motherboards (supermicros but usually the more workstationy ones) have a clever plastic clip thing where a plug on a short attachment slots in to retain the m.2, itís very clever and makes installing them super easy and I wish all manufacturers would adopt something like that.




Oh man, these are awesome. Apparently no one is selling them stateside. I'm kind of tempted to see what it would cost to source 500 and sell them on Amazon.

Stickman
Feb 1, 2004

much, much larger than your hat, but not as large as the moon
-DNA


KingKapalone posted:

Would my Samsung 850 EVO SATA drive be better suited for an OS drive and then just use the SN550 as a game drive?

Honestly, the other way around. NVMe actually offers a decent boost to boot-up time and the current difference to games is tiny to non-existent (and youíll still have plenty of space left on the SN550).

On the other hand, unless youíre restarting all the time thereís really not going to be much of a difference either way. If you already have youíre OS installed on the 850, leaving it that way would be fine!

Stickman
Feb 1, 2004

much, much larger than your hat, but not as large as the moon
-DNA


Maybe should have done that video before he stuck a $400 4.0 NVMe in his $2K build recommendation, with a 2070 Super...

Stickman fucked around with this message at 05:55 on Apr 2, 2020

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Stickman
Feb 1, 2004

much, much larger than your hat, but not as large as the moon
-DNA


Klyith posted:

lol samsung gonna make bank on all the PCMR guys who are panicking that a console might have something better than them

I haven't really been paying attention the last few months, but are the console's streaming tricks even possible on PCIe 4.0 as it's currently structured? Without direct storage access from the GPU it seems like it'd just slam the CPU, but maybe I'm missing something?

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