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I read your thread, and enjoy the updates.
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May 28, 2018 09:55
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While I'm nowhere near the electrician ionn is, I still think a multi-pronged attack is in order: -Switch the CAS disc. Shield its wires and/or at put an oscilloscope on it to make sure the signal is clean. -use new ignition wires. -clean up all the wiring. Maybe make a plywood control panel and use some zip ties and stuff. Strain relief on all connections. -fix the coil in place, and the ECU too. -remove plugs to get rid of compression, fiddle around with timing settings and the strobe to learn what those megasquirt numbers actually do. Check all the plugs for fouling and spark. -improve the fuel rig somewhat. I think the agitation from the fuel return might be causing bubbles to go to the injectors. The return needs to go below the surface in the gas tank at the very least IMO.
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May 28, 2018 12:04
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Invalido posted:-clean up all the wiring. Maybe make a plywood control panel and use some zip ties and stuff. Strain relief on all connections. I don't understand what you have against my wiring. Only two of the connectors had come loose... I can swap out the trigger disc just to see if any difference is made (I only got this replacement one because Speeduino at the time didn't support the stock trigger pattern). Both signals from the CAS looked OK on the scopemeter though, nice square repeating signals, so there's little pointing to that being the problem. The cable from the sensor is shielded all the way (and the shields are grounded), and while I guess it is theoretically possible for the crappy ignition leads to cause interference, I did have signal dropout when the ignition coil wasn't powered. I will hook it up to a proper oscilloscope to keep a bit better track of it though, and with plugs out we'll be able to run the thing longer on that poor old starter battery. Needs to be figured out and solved, but another dodgy connection somewhere could explain it all. As for the rest (fuelling and base timing and such) it basically means fuckall if I can't get a stable crank signal to the ECU. With that, base timing is straightforward enough. A better fuel tank would of course be nice too. I have a 20L jerry can somewhere I welded some air vents to years ago, maybe I should convert that into a "general testing-poo poo-out fuel tank thing".
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May 28, 2018 12:56
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I may have no idea what I am doing, please send help Realising just how much time I'm spending with this old KA24E engine, I decided to tidy things up a bit. For the wiring, I just disconnected things and reconnected it all mounted to a scrap aluminium plate (old sign board from a pizza and kebab place my brother found somewhere) with plenty of zip-ties for strain relief. Makes it a bit easier to measure things and I guess less likely to accidentally disconnect or short out stuff. The starter button is still hanging on it's own bundle of cables back to the solenoid as I'm running that on a separate 12V battery. This wiring is still nicer than a lot of cars I've driven, it even has labels and stuff. Also since this is far from the first time I've needed a fuel tank + pump rig, I decided to make something less prone to smelling and spilling. I splurged on a brand new 10L can to keep it a bit more portable. Just a couple of holes with hose fittings and a bracket to attach the pump to, all held together with JB weld. The return fitting on top has a copper pipe soldered to it on the inside that goes down just a little bit above the bottom. Both to minimise the "sloshing" to reduce the amount of air the pump could suck in, as well as making it more easily usable with some old carbureted thing or so as long as the level inside the tank is above 1/4 or so. Seems to work fine, no leaks from what I could tell. I only realised later that I should have made a similar bracket for the fuel filter which is still just hanging by the hose. Maybe later. In any case, this is probably a useful thing to have around whenever there's an engine without a car, a car with a broken fuel system, or I want to flow test injectors, all of which I've done in the past with very shady fuel rigs. The Bosch 044 pump is still way too nice for this, but I have no better use for it at present.  As for actually starting this engine, still no go. Seems like it's possibly close, but I don't rightly know. I checked the CAS signals with an oscilloscope and they look all fine to me (though I left the USB stick with the screenshots from the scope somewhere). Last time around it would sometimes just drop out and misbehave randomly while cranking and that problem is apparently gone, something that could just have been a bad connection. The problem I'm still having is that the Megasquirt sometimes doesn't seem to pick up the signal at all. Every couple of times I'm cranking it just stays at 0rpm, though sometimes when I let off the starter button, it will pick it up as it slows down (the RPM gauge pops up to 120rpm and just drops down as engine stops). The other times, it registers things just fine and once it does it never seems to lose it. Cranking is around 170-180rpm, which sounds reasonable to me. Another issue is I can't seem to get the base timing right. I set the engine to always do a fixed ignition advance (tried both 10° and 0°) and adjusted the "tooth #1 angle BTDC" value to get it to line up with the proper mark with a timing light. And that just seems wonky as gently caress. I moved it in small increments and got it to be like 5-10° off, and then did another adjustment and it was suddenly like 20-30° off to the other side. I also tried messing with the trigger wheel, changing back to the stock one (that has shitloads of "teeth" without gaps for the crank, and a varying-length pulse cam signal). Couldn't get that to work whatsoever, the "Nissan SR20" setting just didn't register anything (I think it has a different cam signal pattern though). Also looked like it was supposed to on the oscilloscope. If I used some other "trigger algorithm" in Tunerstudio/Megasquirt, it would pick up some signal but obviously never sync properly. Then tried the aftermarket 12+1 wheel but upside down too. It could be mounted either way and only found a vague reference as to which way it is supposed to go. The trigger pattern itself is completely symmetrical, it will just have a completely different "tooth #1 BTDC" value. Made no real difference with regards to CAS/Megasquirt behaviour, and I made no effort to figure out what that value was but just flipped it back to what I originally had it as. Also fiddled with various Tunerstudio trigger settings but couldn't make it work better. I did disable the cam signal just because it isn't really necessary as I'm doing waste spark and semi-sequential fuel, and figured that would reduce the problem space.  When it does sync up (it has a happy little green light in TunerStudio saying so), it seems sometimes closer than ever, occasionally firing on all four cylinders in a row (!) and "sort of running" for a second or so after letting go of the starter button, and with less backfiring than earlier. Probably due to the ignition being less off than before, but I'm guessing it's still not good enough. I suspect that it sometimes syncs up at the wrong angle too and that just doesn't work at all. Eventually I had the brilliant thought of getting some logs from TunerStudio on this. The "composite logger" is just blank for some reason. I can however get something in the "tooth logger", and while I can't completely make sense of what it's trying to tell me, it shows something is weird and possibly hinting at what:  The "peaks" (longest tooth intervals) there are 11 bars apart and are about twice as long as the shortest ones, which makes sense with the 12+1 wheel. That indicates that it isn't missing any counts, but it should really look better than that. It should be 10 short and 1 long one, nice and repeating, and this really isn't. It is kind of repeating with a few "short" and a few "too long" pulses twice per crank revolution which kind of matches what the engine does with cranking slowing down a bit as the starter works against. The intervals of the longest pulses (not the missing tooth one) are almost twice as long as the shortest ones indicating it would be down to just over "half speed" on compression. I wouldn't believe it really turns that unevenly, but maybe it's true. The oscilloscope also shows some "cranking unevenness", but I don't think it is nearly as much as that log. This makes a lot of sense given the observations, but not entirely. If some of the "normal" pulses are that long it may get confused with the missing tooth, and there are good reasons why something looking like that shouldn't work. However, I was cranking it with the plugs out (where it should have a much smoother turn) and even then had the same issues of only syncing some of the time, as well as problems getting consistent base timing. However I didn't think to run the tooth logger on that as I only really looked closer at the logs just now. I'll have to repeat that, and maybe get a stronger starter battery to see if it straightens it out. I can just hook up a few of the leftover batteries I have in parallel and try it when they're fully charged, and also bolt a clutch+pressure plate to the flywheel to give it a little bit more inertia. Another thing to try is to see if the Speeduino behaves better or worse with this crank signal. If none of that helps, then I don't rightly know what to do about this. When I bought the engine at a junk yard, a matching ECU seemed stupidly expensive here (3-4000kr, about $4-500), but now when I look a bit harder I find a couple for $100. If I can find at least part of a wiring harness (need the ECU plug), that is possibly a somewhat cowardly way out, but it would feel like giving up at this point. Will consider it though. I think I have everything else I need to wire it up (all sensors and their connectors), would just need to use distributor ignition.
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Jun 11, 2018 20:45
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Is the trigger wheel its reading off of bent? 
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Jun 12, 2018 01:51
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Not that I can see. The gap inside the optical sensor thing is very tight (especially with the aftermarket 12+1 wheel which is quite thick), but still nothing is rubbing when I'm turning the distributor by hand. Nor can I see it wobble axially or radially. The stock wheel has a bit of a bent lip on the center hole, that's the way it came (probably from the hole being a bit tight). The aftermarket one I have drilled two of the holes myself with a cheapass drill press and got wankel-rotor-shaped holes, but all they need to do is make room for the little tabs on the thing they mount to. It's pretty precisely located by the center hole and once it's tightened down there is enough friction anyway that there is no way it can move relative to the distributor shaft. It just needed the one extra hole, but I did both in order to be able to flip it either way.
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Jun 12, 2018 07:04
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THERE HAS BEEN SUCCESS!! Last weekend, I decided to do my best to provide fuckoff amounts of cranking power, so I took all the batteries laying around. All about the same size (~60Ah), but of varying quality. One of them is brand new, and three of varying states of decay. None of those completely dead, but all removed from other vehicles for some reason. They all seem to have some cranking power in them but not that much capacity. I just charged them all up fully and hooked them up in parallel. Due to only using leftover cable (amp power cables that have come included with various cars in the past), I went with the not-so-standard colour scheme of red for positive and pink for ground.  I also bolted on the old clutch and pressure plate just to add some more inertia. When running on this setup, the CAS signal was a lot nicer. I can still see the "unevenness" in the tooth logger graph on compression, but there is a distinct difference between the "short" and "long" pulses and the Megasquirt syncs up reliably every time. However, engine wouldn't really behave any better and only fire intermittently. I noticed that the ignition module was getting really hot though, and once it even blew the 10A fuse I had it on (which is lots more than it should ever use), and the timing light would only trigger every 3rd turn or so on average. And looking through the ignition settings, I saw that I had the spark output set to "going low", something that if it's set wrongly will overheat the coils by basically giving them shitloads of dwell time, and almost all coils in the world should apparently have "going high". I probably just kept this setting from the Speeduino setup, which typically have inverted outputs compared to Megasquirt. After fixing this the ignition driver never got warm at all, but it seems I've fried it as I still didn't get reliable spark. No big deal, this was a cheap chinese-made VAG coil pack from Ebay, which was just the cheapest waste-spark thing I could find with built-in drivers. When I bought it it was pretty poorly packaged and got damaged in shipping, and the seller just gave me the money back so it was a freebie after all. Was intending to replace it anyway before it got into the truck. I bought the exact same kind of coil from the local Biltema (SEK 500, about $60, which is still twice as much as eBay), and hooked that up instead. It looks identical down to the numbers molded in the plastic, but for some reason I had to swap the two ignition channels over (just swapped the leads). The consistency of chinese parts, I guess. With fresh coils and proper signal level setting, it doesn't get warm at all, triggers the timing light way more reliably, and the engine was happy enough to fire up on three cylinders and even run like that on its own for a few seconds. We pulled the plugs, and two of them were wet with fuel which was odd. Would have expected it to be at most just one, but meh. Not sure what was what, we just cleaned off the soot from all the earlier poor running, did a compression test (still good on all four), made sure all injectors still had power, adjusted the timing a bit better with proper spark and free-spinning engine, and tried again. Sort of expected it to just fire on three still but at least be able to tell which plug got dirtied up again, but lo and behold, it fired up on all four!! It of course doesn't hold a stable RPM very well and sometimes stalls, which is no surprise as I have no idle control hooked up and nothing but a best-guess base tune. But it runs, and seemingly fires reliably on all cylinders. However, I don't want to run it more than a few seconds as it is as there's no coolant in it. Even if I were to pour some in just to keep the cylinders from melting, it still is noisy as gently caress due to the extreme lack of an exhaust, and I still can't run the water pump (the only pulley I have is in the truck). I need to have an O2 sensor to see what kind of fuelling it has as it is probably way off, and it wouldn't give any useful values now since it is almost out in the open air. But since I now know the sucker fires on all four, I think it's good enough to stick in the truck and do the rest there. I will try it out briefly on the Speeduino first just to see if it knows what's what and double-check ignition signals, but I'll probably keep it on the MS3 for a while as it is a bit more familiar territory tuning-wise and behaves nicer in TunerStudio. I'll pull some of the bits off to make it easier to move, and then get the truck itself here for a transplant. It will have to wait a while as I won't have time to do it before I'm going away for two weeks, and before then there are some trucking duties to do around here. A couple more random pictures. Fresh coil pack and ignition leads, and the test rig in all it's glory. The engine cradle slowly turns and moves off to the right when it runs.  
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Jun 22, 2018 23:12
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Whoa! Running that well is a huge step forward. Congrats.
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Jun 23, 2018 17:20
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Keep in mind too that with no exhaust there's not going to be any effective scavenging which will affect it's smoothness as well. Once you stick on an exhaust and get the fueling figured out with useful feedback from an O2 sensor it'll be running like a champ. Good progress!
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Jun 23, 2018 18:31
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Yeah, this is certainly a big relief after all of this hassle not getting it to run. And all due to the battery not being strong enough and me applying incompetence where it matters and frying the coil pack. Just having it fire up on all four for a couple of seconds isreally all I wanted out of it. It at least suggests the engine isn't a complete disaster (due to being in unknown state from a junkyard AND me changing internal parts), and if there's something else wrong I can hopefully deal with it with the engine in the truck. There is still plenty of opportunities ahead for things just not fitting together properly when doing the swap, so I'm counting on there being more shenanigans in the near future. Regarding the battery being too small, this is the same kind that is in the truck stock, I got a brand new one to replace the old one in the truck (which isn't holding a charge for very long). It does seem a bit small to me for such a large engine, and I can imagine the same engine with fuel injection needing a bit more power. It has a high pressure fuel pump (way oversized atm), the injectors, and an ECU that doesn't really like it when 8V happens during cranking. Not too many amps compared to a starter motor, but still. And while it is really cranking well enough to start, the low crank speed just confuses the ECU. I should probably just pick some common larger size battery and go with that instead. Shouldn't be a problem making it fit as there is plenty of room. Will need to modify the shelf a little bit, and make new cables as this is one of those batteries that has "reverse polarity".
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Jun 25, 2018 07:07
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Engine swap is go! After a few weeks of general vacationing and construction work, we can finally get back to proper, literal shade-tree-mechanicery. First step, have a sibling add a reinforcement from the trunk of a big oak tree to a suitable branch for a chain hoist:   Then just park a truck underneath, angled slightly uphill to ease extraction of engine:  We can take it off the ramps if need be to tilt it a bit more, and also move it up/down with a come-along. Ramps help access underneath now though, to get at exhaust and bellhousing bolts. Equipped for a fight.  This old bastard Z24 is coming out!  We got all the "small things" disconnected today (fluids, wires and hoses, various bits that might get in the way) as well as the exhaust. It still is bolted to the engine mounts and bellhousing. We should hopefully have it all out tomorrow. After taking bits off the old engine, it turns out a couple things I need won't fit. The junkyard KA24E was missing the water pump pulley and alternator bracket, and neither of those from the Z24 are quite the same. The alternator bracket I can probably modify to fit (drilling new holes or welding onto an adapter) for now, but the proper bracket (which has a different style tensioner) is available at junkyards. The alternator itself was making a bit of a whining noise when spinning it, so it might need to be replaced anyway. I think I'll monkey something together with the parts at hand for now, and if I swap the alternator later I'll replace the bracket then. The water pump pulley might be a bigger issue. I'll have to get some measurements and pics of the situation, but if the whole Z24 pump (with pulley and all) doesn't fit it might do with an adapter/spacer. Another upcoming adventure is making Frankenstein's oil pan. Since I didn't know better at the time, I happened to get an engine from a 2WD pickup, and the oil pan from that won't fit the 4WD truck with the front diff and driveshafts. I thought the Z24 4WD oil pan would just bolt on the KA24E, but they apparently changed the shape of it a bit by the timing chain cover. I have seen others cutting oil pans apart and welding them back together, and as long as we can cut it to a decent fit that should be an alright welding job. Will have to see what gives with the oil pickup though, will probably have to move that over from the Z24 too assuming it's compatible.
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Jul 23, 2018 23:03
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The old engine came out without much fuss. Moving the truck up and down the slope with the comealong worked well enough, so no problems there. Now we're facing a lot of making do with what we've got, since a few parts don't fit. Getting hold of the right oil pan and water pump pulley in any reasonable timeframe seems to mean buying a whole other engine, which isn't ideal. Right now I'm working on marrying parts of these two pans together:  There's a MIG and a TIG. I'm not a good TIG welder at all, but I think that's what I'll use since my mig welds always end up with pinholes. The good news is that the steel is 2mm thick, so I think it's meaty enough for me to work with. Hopefully I'll cut and weld tomorrow. Today I only got as far as making a backing plate. I hope this will keep the warping from messing up the interface with the engine block. I also want to be able to pressure test for leaks if I can slap a schrader valve or something in there. I could even try my first ever back purge since we got a second argon bottle and regulator now, but that would be more for experimentation than actual need in this particular case I guess.  ionn says he fixed the alternator bracket somehow. The water pump pulley is an interesting issue that might actually be kludged together well enough to work with the pulley from the old engine that doesn't fit the new water pump at all. The exhaust pipe doesn't fit the new manifold either, but I have plate steel and a plasma cutter. Something ugly will hopefully be fabricated in the coming days. We're having lots of fun.
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Jul 24, 2018 22:53
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Thread lives up to title.
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Jul 25, 2018 13:34
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Larrymer posted:Thread lives up to title. Darn tootin'. Frankenpan is done, except for a second coat of paint. The pressure test revealed a single pinhole as well as some warping. I hammered it flat between the boltholes at least so hopefully she'll seal against the block, or it's gonna be a real headache. Some TIG lessons learned at least, practice is everything. Might could be that the engine goes in tomorrow.  
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Jul 25, 2018 20:28
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Larrymer posted:Thread lives up to title. We are doing our very best to redneck it up whenever we get away from city life for a while. Finding parts for this truck is rather random, some of it is super cheap and everywhere while some is rare unicorn material. In the general spirit of this project as well as not waiting for parts from the other side of the planet (if they can even be found), there is a fair bit of monkey business going on here to just make things fit. My main concern at the moment is the water pump and its pulley. This is what stuff looks like:  Z24 pulley on the left, old Z24 water pump in the middle, new KA24E water pump on the right. They do look pretty similar, but the Z24 stuff is just smaller. The flat disc part is smaller and has the bolt holes closer together. Putting the pulley on the KA24E pump has it too far out (belt won't line up with crank pulley or alternator), but if it were to sit on the face of that disc it would be too far in. So we went for the somewhat mechanically dubious option of grinding it down to fit right in between... I drilled and tapped new holes, and then we ground down the water pump a bit:  Had the drill turn the pump via a bolt extractor to grind it evenly, and it seemed to have gone rather well. The pulley seats around the edge and seems to be on there rather firmly and is running almost entirely true. There is a big gap between the pulley and the bolt holes and I was thinking about making some spacers there, but it seems so well seated around the edge that I won't bother. The bolts will clamp it down nicely I think. However, when test-fitting it on the engine, it turns out the pulley sits higher up on the Z24 than the KA24E. Now, it's far enough down that it not only looks rather comical, but it is rubbing against the crank pulley.  So, let's apply the same trick again and shave a couple millimeters off, only this time slaughter the old Z24 pump to hold the pulley:  It all seems to kind of fit now, just looks weird. The old alternator/fan belt is way too long (not surprising, as the water pump is quite a bit higher up on the Z24). The power steering belt almost works, but it is just slightly too long as the alternator hits the end of its adjustment range. I'll have to get a slightly shorter belt, and this might just work. I need to get longer bolts too, the pic above was just for test fitment. The radiator fan goes outside of it but I have no bolts of appropriate length (as the part they screw into is now 13mm behind the pulley). Time will tell if this weird way of mounting a pulley will even work, it might just self-destruct on first start. I am trying to find the proper pulley somewhere, but they're hard to come by. There are around three available on ebay though, will probably get one of them. Invalido posted:ionn says he fixed the alternator bracket somehow. I cleverly "fixed" this by finding the KA24 alternator bracket at the bottom of a box of various parts looking for something else. Apparently it did come with the engine, I had just taken it off and forgot about it. One odd thing is that it is very close to the water neck. Not clear from the picture, but there's maybe 2mm between them, less than the thickness of the hose. That hose (which is just a short one leading to a joiner) should have had some mark on it from sitting up against the bracket, but I couldn't see any. It looks like it's mounted in the right spot, but it also doesn't seem it has been exactly there before. Not quite sure what's going on, but whatever, it works. I did grind it down a bit for some more hose clearance, now everything looks like it will go together nicely. It's a familiar deal with the exhaust where it joins up to the manifold; looking at it while in the truck, it seemed like the flanges on the exhaust manifold were the same between the engines but it turns out that they are just very similar in shape but the Z24 one is about 20% smaller. So I cut out a flange that would mate up to the manifold and welded that on top of the one on the exhaust pipe. I just need to grind down those booger welds a bit to make room for a nut, but other than that I think it's good enough for now.  I had a closer look at the clutch and flywheel. All three clutches (old one from truck/Z24, old one from KA24 engine, and the new one I bought) appear identical and everything fits with regards to gearbox shaft and flywheel. As for the flywheel itself, the two I have also appear to be the exact same part. The surface on the old Z24 one is a lot better though as it has been driven and not sitting in the open for a few years gathering surface rust, so I'm moving that one across. And since we're solving so many issues I figured I could create one, so while changing the clutch release bearing and cleaning out the clutch fork and stuff, I ruined the clutch slave cylinder (piston came out). It looks rather worn and pitted and the rubber seemed untrustworthy, so I just ordered a new one. $20. It will take a few days to get here, but it's not needed to put the engine in. Measured out the engine mounts, there was some forums post from someone doing this swap saying they had to cut and re-weld them, but they seem to be in exactly the same place. The brackets bolted to the block are slightly different, but I have them for both blocks and the holes the rubber cushion things bolt to are as far as I can tell in just the right spot. Here is the pile of leftover bits from the ancient Z24 engine:  Took a piston out and had a look at the cylinder as well as main and rod bearings, just for shits and giggles. All seems in good shape (and there was never any bearing noise anyway), but I'm guessing at least a ring job would have been in order as it shows some signs of blowby. There was also quite a lot of metal bits in the oil pan. Doesn't matter now, this stuff is getting junked. I'm just saving some strategic bits that fit the KA24. In the pic you can see the rather strange Hitachi carb. I have no clue what most of the strange things on that ting are for. There are strange adjustment screws allover, and a few things that are electronically controlled (choke, whateverthefuck and whoknowswhat). Old weird carb, I really don't like you. You should never have been made, as everyone else at least got Z24i with TBI by this time. You are the main reason I'm throwing this engine out. May you rest in peace and not get reused. The one good thing about this carb is that it has a fuel return line (never seen that on a carb before) which will come in handy for the EFI. I'm replacing all the hoses, filter and pump, but the hardlines seem in good shape and will do fine until proven otherwise. The old engine also got the dipstick tube scavenged. Both tube+stick on the KA24E were horribly bent, probably happened at the junkyard. This one is nicer. invalido spent basically the entire day cutting and splicing and welding the two oil pans together. The end result seems pretty darn good all things considered. In all, I think we are more or less set for throwing the new engine in tomorrow. The freshly assembled and painted oil pan, flywheel and clutch need to go on, and then it's go. Must also not forget the oil pickup. There we're transplanting the Z24 one, as it's the 4WD version that goes deeper down in the oil sump.
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Jul 25, 2018 23:13
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 This is a KA24E engine, and it is in the truck!  Getting it in went reasonably well. Seemed like about the expected amount of hassle, lining it up with the bellhousing, making the gearbox input shaft to get intimate with the clutch, and then getting the engine mounts to line up, but it all worked out. Now it's just the whole "assembly is the reverse of disassembly" circus and reconnecting all the things. Getting things to a state where we can start it up shouldn't be too far off though. Got a high pressure fuel pump mounted on the in-tank assembly (we took the bed off rather than dropping the tank) so the fuel system should not be too far off, and after that it's mostly just wiring which is reasonably straightforward.
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Jul 26, 2018 21:48
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Cool, it's always nice when it finally fits in. I can appreciate the Frankensteining you are having to do as well.
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Jul 26, 2018 21:55
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You can fix any gap in the pan with liberal applications of RTV or if you wanna go full gently caress it, just JB Weld the bastard in place.
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Jul 28, 2018 03:55
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Sgt Fox posted:Cool, it's always nice when it finally fits in. I can appreciate the Frankensteining you are having to do as well. I must admit there have been times when I've had strong feelings of hopelessness of this project never being finished, but now it feels pretty good. Frankensteining will certainly continue, given the scarcity of "proper" parts as well as the level of cosmetic detail involved. MC Hawking posted:You can fix any gap in the pan with liberal applications of RTV or if you wanna go full gently caress it, just JB Weld the bastard in place. Oh, believe you me, there has been a liberal application of it. As I was laying down what I thought was a reasonably thick bead, the tube opened up at the back so I just took allofit and slathered it on there. The oil pan bolts seemed capable of properly tensioning everything down, but if there's trouble where the biggest bend was, some kind of two-part universal car repair gunk will almost certainly be applied. Also I'm a dumbass, after we had the engine in I was again rummaging through a box of stuff and found a pretty thick cork oil pan gasket I had forgot I even had Got more of the things assembled, though it's too darn hot and sunny to work more than a few hours in the morning and evening, and sometimes very very slowly in between. The exhaust is mostly on (just need to bolt the front and rear sections up), coolant system is cool, engine has oil and it's at least not pouring out, and the whole fuel system is assembled (new pump, filter, hoses). Most of what's left is electrical which is a fun issue in itself, as figuring out the wiring of this truck is a mess. I have a couple different wiring diagrams (from service manuals and a Haynes book), and none of them match what I got. A large part of that is that the schematics describe US / Canadian / Californian models, and only Z24i (the TBI one), KA24E or VG30E versions, so my carbed 1990 Z24 chassis is wiring-wise an oddball anachronism. Current plan is to leave most of that alone, and only use the ignition power wire to control my own "main relay" with it's own fusible link and run everything else off separate fuses after that. I also need to fish out the fuel pump wire from somewhere, so I can have the ECU control that. Also all the wiring is covered in 28 years of dirt and oil and that horrible tape that leaves sticky residue on everything. That is todays main project, but once that's done it's not too far off to try firing this thing up again.
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Jul 28, 2018 07:24
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It is alive! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jYJAzTE7Sak  Not actually the first start, more like #3 or 4 I hooked up all the wiring as well as some other bits, gave it a go, and it fired right up. This is the beautiful state of the whole wiring setup:  I'm going to tidy that up, I promise. The plan is to fit it all behind the glovebox, where there seems to be enough room. It's also still on the MS3Pro, and as much as I love the truck a $1000 ECU seems a bit too much. I'll keep using that until I have gotten the idle air control working right as it has a much better test mode for that. It seems that valve doesn't really do what it's supposed to, it might be it's stuck open as it is idling at just over 1000rpm. Once I got that bit figured out, I'll try to run it on the Speeduino, and when mounting that I'll shorten and tidy up all the cabling. I only ran it for a couple minutes total, a few seconds at a time. Don't really want to be at it more than that since the water pump isn't turning. Need a belt of the right length and appropriately sized bolts to mount the pulley. Here's what the engine bay in general looks like:  I need to find a pile of 3" silicone hose and aluminium pipe I have somewhere to fit the air filter over on the other side of the engine bay, while avoiding the power steering belt. That, or just stick it up through the hood. You can also see the way too long throttle cable snaking across the valve cover. The carb had the cable loop around and come in from the far end, so there's just too much of it now. Not sure if it can be shortened, if I can find a replacement of the proper length or if I'll just leave it like that forever. Edit: The truck as it sits now, looking weird and hot-rod-ish without the bed. 
ionn fucked around with this message at 12:07 on Jul 30, 2018 |
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Jul 30, 2018 10:38
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So ionn is out of vacation days for this summer, and the project has slowed down a bit. The water pump pulley is about as sorted as it will get until the proper one arrives. It runs true, and once we get a belt of proper length it should be good enough for now. We went for an electric fan. It covers the entire height of the radiator, so hopefully it will suffice. If not there's a mechanical fan with clutch and all available at a local JY, but the shroud probably won't fit without mods so we'd rather not go that route unless necessary. The bad news is that there's a pronounced valve tick coming from the KA engine. Valve cover has yet to come off, ionn seems unconcerned and talks about "italian tuning" it. It might well be wishful thinking but I thought it got better during the time we idled it until the thermostat opened up in order to burp the cooling system. Googling the problem leads to forum posts suggesting an oil additive might clear it up, or the oil pressure is bad, or bleeding the lifters, or ordering the right shims from 37 purportedly available sizes, or adjusting the lash on the mechanical lifters I'm pretty sure aren't in there. Other than the tick it runs well on the megasquirt, except for the idle air control valve which ionn says isn't working. Hopefully it's just gunked up or something and can be repaired rather than replaced. It's time for the speeduino followed by some proper tuning and it should be driveable. Another thing that's broken is the old ignition lock. The key can be removed when in the run position, and despite my best attempts to disassemble, clean and re-lubricate it I can't make it right, and I wouldn't entirely trust it not to engage the steering lock at an inopportune moment. Instead I whipped up an ugly but functional bracket for a generic ignition lock and tacked it in place on the steering column. I messed up a bit so it's not entirely centered in the hole in the plastic trim, but it will serve I guess.   
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Aug 1, 2018 21:36
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I've never seen a KA24E without valve tick. Thread owns, y'all own.
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Aug 2, 2018 12:47
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Wrar posted:I've never seen a KA24E without valve tick.  Good new though; the ICV was indeed gunky and sticky! I found some seemingly appropriate solvent in the aerosol can stash, and it seems to clean real good. The valve now moves freely when I zap the solenoid with 12v. I'm gonna leave the whole thing soaking for a bit to get what I couldn't reach with a q-tip loosened up and let ionn hook it up to the megasquirt to see how it behaves (and possibly the speeduino too come to think of it) before it goes back in the truck. 
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Aug 2, 2018 17:54
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 Very professional speeduino case.
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Aug 5, 2018 20:38
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Invalido posted:
Is... is that a lunch box?
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Aug 6, 2018 04:54
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Wrar posted:I've never seen a KA24E without valve tick. Same for the KA24DE. "Quiet" and "refined" are not words you use for the KA series. Though they do run forever so long as you keep up on the most basic of maintenance, and the timing chain guides. Glad to see it running!
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Aug 6, 2018 06:20
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TheFluff posted:Is... is that a lunch box? It sure is. The case lives behind the glove box out of sight. It was either re-purpose something existing or fab a new box out of sheet metal or plywood, so I went for the lunch box. Less risk of a short circuit compared to a metal case, and much less time consuming. Plywood would have been fast but just as ugly. Ionn spent most of the weekend doing wiring, and the truck ran somewhat OK on the new ECU after we finally got a reliable-ish CAS signal. Then the MAP sensor went erratic before dying completely, which was the end of tuning for this weekend. Before that happened though, the truck actually moved under its own power for a very short test drive. The valve tick pretty much went away as soon as the truck was on level ground, which is encouraging! Then there was repeated stalling and a big backfire (probably due to the MAP sensor beginning to fail) followed by a sporty exhaust note, so something likely blew out in a flange or muffler or something that we haven't looked into yet. All in all though, we actually have high hopes of getting this thing back on the road soon-ish. We even put the hood back on! Many wires and fuses and relays:   Hot air intake. With another length of aluminium tube yet to be purchased, I can put the filter at the far left of the engine bay and maybe make a sheet metal bulkhead between the intake and the radiator, which ought to get the air temps down a bit. 
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Aug 6, 2018 07:24
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It runs, it drives, it dies... The MAP sensor has by my reckoning poo poo itself completely, it jumps between 0V / 9kPa and 5V / 300kPa (and occasionally some random value in between), and when idling at 35-40kPa either near-vacuum or OMG 2 BARS OF BOOST will give rather incorrect amounts of fuel. It is an cheap clone of a GM-style sensor, I have another one just like it somewhere as well as a small MPX4250 which is what the Speeduino is designed to have soldered straight onto the board. Depends on which one I find first. The CAS signal was very erratic at first (causing a sync loss and misfire every couple of seconds), but after tightening up a possibly loose ignition lead at the coil pack and setting the Speeduino filter mode to "aggressive", it was decent enough. Still does it on occasion, but rarely enough that it is at least possible to tune the engine. I looked at it with an oscilloscope and it does seem mostly fine to me. The Megasquirt which literally didn't miss a beat has some better hardware signal filtering/conditioning though, and I might try to build something to make the signal look nicer. I think the signal is "good enough for now" though. Invalido checking out the wires with the bad CAS signal in them or something.  During the test drive it drove like complete rear end, due to zero effort spent tuning anything but idle as well as having some weird parameters causing it to have no acceleration enrichment. But it drove! Me using a phone camera while driving.  The tach can here be seen to not work. I am reasonably sure I have found the proper wire to send the signal to (what used to be the connection between distributor and coil), but I haven't got the proper signal out from the Speeduino. I got another unit to test that on though, so it'll work out. Another view of the aforementioned hot-air intake right behind the radiator.  Even with the hood off, intake temps went up to about 25° above ambient when the engine was warm, but the fix for that should be reasonably straightforward. The Z24 had a snorkel going to that hole in the side behind the headlight, but I think just putting the intake somewhere thereabouts and blocking off the radiator airflow a bit should do nicely. It has also as you can see been equipped with an electric fan, throwing away all the purity and simplicity of a belt-driven one. I don't really trust the current monkeyed-to-almost-fit pulley with the extra load of a fan on it, and with the proper pulley (which should arrive any day now) the bolt holes will not line up anyway. I could get a "proper" KA24E fan from a junkyard complete with that weird thermo-viscous-magic clutch, but I just bought a generic 40cm electric one mounted with those zip-tie-like things poked through the radiator. It fits well there, makes changing or adjusting belts way easier, and probably does a better job pushing air than the stock one did. The ECU happily controls the fan relay, but I need to tweak the temperatures a bit. The lifter ticking noise has as said mostly gone away. It sounded like it was up from the front of the engine, and I could see how the lifters there could get a bit starved for oil when it's tilted backwards like that. Or maybe it was just a matter of heating it up and running it for a while. Engine can't really be said to be "smoothly purring", but it sounds fine and makes less racket than the old one did for sure. With its fresh timing chain, tensioner and solid metal chain guide there should be at least a decent chance of this thing surviving for another couple of decades. Edit: Also a general shoutout to noisymime for making Speeduino.  When I got this engine almost 2 years ago Speeduino seemed to be mostly in an experimental state. Now it's used in lots of actual driving cars of all kinds and seems to just work. While still a bit behind Megasquirt in terms of features and usability, it's still pretty darn awesome not to mention being open source. ionn fucked around with this message at 10:35 on Aug 6, 2018 |
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Aug 6, 2018 10:19
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This weekend Lennart the Truck got put pretty much back together. While the bed was off, I wanted to fix the brake situation. This thing used to have a load-sensing proportioning valve, and it seems they're pretty prone to rusting up and failing with age. There used to be two brake lines from the front going to that thing, and then just one line from it via a hose down to the rear axle, and a T from there to each rear wheel. Some previous owner had just replaced it with another T connection up where it sat, but doing so connected the two brake circuits together to make the whole thing a single-circuit braking system, which is not quite awesome. Especially some of the steel lines were really rusty and needed replacing anyway (where they hadn't been covered with underbody monkey poop), so not the best situation to be in. The hardlines come from the front on the right-side frame rail, go across the frame to the left side where the brake balancer used to be, one line going back to the right to a hose and then down. So we just cut the old steel hardlines behind the fuel tank in a convenient spot (to which point everything seemed solid) and tore the rest out, and connected that to fresh copper lines and a pair of brake hoses. The hoses are a bit short (they were the longest I could find with the right fittings, some generic part apparently fitting some VW), but Invalido made a pair of brackets to mount the thing to in a position which should give plenty of flex. To my surprise only one of the fittings was leaking (and it wasn't even one of the steel lines), must have been just a lovely flare. Redid that, and all seems well. No leaks when stepping hard on the brakes with engine running, we will call that good enough.  I haven't noticed any tendency for it to lock up the rear and oversteer without the proportioning valve, but it might be it is a bit unbalanced. Probably also just wears the rear brake shoes a bit faster than it otherwise would. Not going to bother installing one of those load-sensing things unless it seems necessary. It also got the trailer hitch reattached. It's been taken on and off before, but this thing needs to have a "registration inspection" for it to be legal, and for that I want to make sure it matches the installation instructions. It was missing a pair of brackets, but got some steel L profile a while back that Invalido made into something that looks the part. With those two things out of the way the bed could be put back on, and the truck is whole again.  I replaced the failed MAP sensor with one soldered onto the Speeduino board, so the ECU now actually works again. It still has serious issues with acceleration enrichment though, especially when going from no throttle to "any throttle whatsoever" where it has a serious lean spike and often stalls out unless you're really really smooth about it. It got a little bit better after shifting the sensor a bit (as the potentiometer had a bit of a dead-zone down low), but I basically have as much AE as it is possible to configure and it still complains coming off idle. Not sure what to do about it. I fine-tuned the base timing (it was maybe 3-4° off) and went for a short test drive. Barely driveable at very low load, but it seems properly alive and will probably behave well with some tuning effort. Just need to drive around a lot and fiddle with it. And the engine definitely is smoother and less noisy than the old Z24 ever was, so I guess this will turn out alright. I got another bit of intake pipe, so now the filter sits over on the other side of the engine bay:  It is no longer behind the radiator which should help, and it's also possible to make some kind of baffle to further prevent hot radiator air to get in. Not that I expect it to matter too much, but avoiding hot intake air just seems like a reasonable thing to do.
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Aug 12, 2018 19:25
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ionn posted:Some previous owner had just replaced it with another T connection up where it sat, but doing so connected the two brake circuits together to make the whole thing a single-circuit braking system, which is not quite awesome. Especially some of the steel lines were really rusty and needed replacing anyway (where they hadn't been covered with underbody monkey poop), so not the best situation to be in. If I'm understanding this right, does this imply that your two brake circuits are left/right? Is that normal? I'm used to seeing front/rear, and I didn't know left/right was a thing.
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Aug 12, 2018 20:06
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I haven't seen left/right, but I have seen diagonal.
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Aug 12, 2018 20:09
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Metal Geir Skogul posted:I haven't seen left/right, but I have seen diagonal. Diagonal makes things a lot safer. If a circuit fails, you don't get rotation from braking, like you would from left/right. I've also seen front/rear, for the same reasons.
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Aug 12, 2018 20:17
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To be honest, I don't know if I have connected the circuits so they're left/right or diagonal, as I got a bit lost in the maze of brake lines up in the engine bay before it goes down to the frame. Diagonal is what I would prefer, but I figured that in case of a failure, having two wheels braking on one side is still better than having none at all. If I manage to figure out what goes where, it's not too big a deal to just cross the lines over to make it diagonal. As it was a 50/50 guess, there's about a 90% chance I got it wrong. I'm also a lot less worried about anything failing now that the worst part of brake lines are gone, namely the three lines going across the frame to where that load-sensing valve used to be and back. That section didn't have any underbody monkey feces on it and was really rusty (and would likely have failed the inspection years ago if it had only been visible from underneath). Many of the sections we took out, including the ones down on the axle, were in surprisingly good condition, but it was easier just replacing it with copper line than making more joints with steel lines.
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Aug 12, 2018 22:01
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sharkytm posted:Diagonal makes things a lot safer. If a circuit fails, you don't get rotation from braking, like you would from left/right. I've also seen front/rear, for the same reasons. Diagonal hadn't even occurred to me. Seems like it would be weirdly complicated since rears usually are biased different from fronts? Regardless, any dual circuit system is bound to be better than any single circuit system. Nothing like experiencing full braking turning into zero braking as you run out of that last bit of fluid.
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Aug 12, 2018 22:54
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Some cars just have two pressure-limiting valves, one for each rear wheel on each circuit. And some don't have anything like that at all, just smaller piston area in the rear calipers sets them up well enough (mostly seen this in older cars though). If you lose one of the brake circuits (or get a tiny leak on a single one), you can still brake a few times while losing fluid out somewhere until that's gone. If you have just one and a rusty old brake line ruptures, there are typically zero brakes whatsoever as you are unable to build any pressure in the system.
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Aug 13, 2018 06:21
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Raluek posted:Diagonal hadn't even occurred to me. Seems like it would be weirdly complicated since rears usually are biased different from fronts? Piston/wheel cylinder size, as has been said, handles the bias pretty well. Most trucks have a single line that goes to the rear axle, and having lost that before, it's not fun to suddenly have a shift to 100% front bias in a corner. Sudden massive understeer. I never lost front brakes in any of my trucks, but I can't imagine having 100% rear, especially if unloaded, is very fun. I've done 50+miles with a couple of blown lines, you just stop every 3 applications of the brakes and add fluid. It loving sucks.
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Aug 13, 2018 14:00
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My dad is the type who loads a truck down to the bumpstops, throws another shovelful in, and calls it good. Combine this with an exhaust shop not leaving enough room on the over axle hoop and this resulted in the rear soft line getting pinched between the axle and exhaust, which burned it through. Lost all rear brakes while still hilariously overloaded. Managed to stop it by abusing the front (drum!) brakes, the three-on-the-tree, and the foot operated parking brake. 
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Aug 13, 2018 15:07
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Anecdote time: Worst-braking thing I ever drove was one of the many Mazda 323's I've been involved with. When another guy was driving, the upper bolt for one of the front calipers came out, the caliper caught the wheel and got stuck, breaking off the flange for the lower bolt from the spindle. The hose was badly bent at the banjo fitting and would need replacement anyway, so we cut the hose and using a combination of screws, hose clamps and zip ties plugged it up and folded it over itself a couple times until it didn't seem to leak when pressing the brakes. I tested the brakes a few times and goddamn it really wanted to veer off the road if I braked hard, but I was just stupid enough to still drive it the 250km home. It was almost all highway though, and by keeping just below the speed limit and just keeping my distance to things I didn't have to touch the brake pedal the whole trip, and just used engine + handbrake the couple times I needed to slow down. As for this truck and its brakes, I'm guessing it permanently has whatever front-rear brake balance it used to have at max load when the load-sensing valve was working, and that that is a bit too much rear brakes otherwise. I can't say I have ever noticed it wanting to oversteer under braking before (it never had that valve for as long as I owned it), but I'll try to provoke it a bit whenever conditions are right and see how it feels. And if I need to take something else in the brake lines apart for whatever reason, I guess I can block off one of the circuits and see which wheels are connected to which, and cross lines over to fix it when I realise it's wrong. I thought about having a brake hose on each side of the axle for OCD symmetry reasons, but I decided to put both on the right side where the one hose used to be, specifically because the exhaust is over on the left. The dangly bits are also pretty well hidden behind the fuel tank, so any debris or dead animals or whatever is likely to hit that instead of getting caught in the brake lines.
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Aug 13, 2018 21:28
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The wideband O2 sensors are mocking me and I am losing my sanity. Please send help. I started today out with straightening out a couple of ECU issues. I hooked up the SCV so it could be controlled properly, thinking it could somehow help my "stare at the accelerator pedal and you get a lean spike" issues, as I couldn't get it all sorted out by plain TPS-based AE alone. The SCV, or "swirl control valve" is a set of butterfly throttle plates in the intake that partially blocks airflow at low rpm / load to increase turbulence and improve idle. Same thing as Mazda VTCS, essentially. I for some reason decided to not remove it (which a lot of people do) when I had the engine apart, but just keep it around and see what it might do. When the engine was idling, closing the SCV (which I did by manually running a hand vacuum pump to the actuator via a hose), rpm would go up a little bit, so something's happening there. It needed some rewiring (had do swap the SCV and fan wires and reassign the pins) to get the signal right, but I think I also have the vacuum end connected incorrectly at the intake as it isn't moving when it should. Also installed a filter for the CAS signal, which still had some noise to it. Later Speeduino boards has this on the PCB, a simple RC low-pass filter on the incoming signals, but mine (v0.3.2) does not. I just soldered the parts to a small chunk of PCB into something that can be put in the "expansion slot" intended for a variable-reluctance signal conditioner. I don't need that, but it is a convenient place to put the filter. It seemed to do the trick, the occasional misfires I had from before are as far as I can tell gone now. Then the agony started. I was just trying to tune the VE table around idle and up a bit on the RPM scale, when the AFR gauge started going more and more lean, eventually pegging at 22.4 (max reading). While it was moving, I tried adding more fuel which just made it run worse, and not making an impression on the gauge. I ended up with like 3x as much fuel in those cells which just seemed wrong, it was running like crap and stinking of unburnt fuel despite showing 22.4 on the gauge. I came back a while later, started it up, immediately had to drag the VE cells down again as it was now showing horribly rich, and just as I got it settled at the high 14's (essentially being back at the numbers I had before), the gauge over the span of a 10-15 seconds went from "reasonable values" to "pretty lean" to "insanely lean", ending up at 22.4. Playing around with it a bit, I had the engine running perfectly fine, with open-loop idle and no AFR-based fuel corrections, and it had a nice clean idle just over 1000rpm. As it starts getting warm (coolant temp around 80 or a bit above), the same thing would happen. It still was getting the same amount of fuel and air, and still had a perfectly smooth idle. Increasing fuel still didn't do anything on the gauge and only made it run worse. First thought was that the wideband O2 sensor was getting too hot or something as it started happening when the engine warmed up. It's mounted a bit closer to the engine than the wideband manual recommends (24", this was maybe half of that), so as I had an appropriate weld-in bung laying around we pulled the exhaust, drilled a hole and welded it in further downstream. The stock location of the O2 sensor:  By the time we had the exhaust back in the engine had cooled off, and I had it idling for a few minutes and all seemed well. I was just about to proclaim it had done the trick, when AFR values started rising. At first I thought it was just due to the engine reaching the temperature where WUE fades out, but it just kept on climbing. At the time I was fooling around grabbing some logs and I have a couple of pieces of the event, but this is what the last part of it looks like:  Before this it went from about 12.8 (reasonable, a tad rich) to 15.8 (a tad lean) in about 30 seconds, and this graph showing it continue from there to full lean (22.4) in another 30. So from "all good" to "horrible" in about a minute, around when the coolant temp hits 80 °C. Next thought was that I had blown the O2 sensor from overheating or something. I had another one around, that was functioning perfectly fine last time it was used. Put that in, recalibrated the controller, and the exact same thing happened again. Ok, so maybe it's the controller that's broken. So I swapped out the Innovate MTX-L I had installed for an LC-2 unit (that I had used together with the other sensor) thinking this would surely do it, but no. AFR values did the same thing again, and this is where I start questioning my sanity. I thought I was being reasonable and methodical, and this happens?! Things I believe are not causes of this issue:
I do not have any plausible ideas for what could be wrong and what to change/test/fix other than throwing random things at the problem. I do have a third wideband O2 unit, a 14point7 SLC Free, which is the one I bought a year ago intending to use in this engine, but haven't yet as it was easier to use the MTX-L laying around. They all use the same Bosch LSU4.9 sensor but this is of a different brand, in case the engine has developed an allergy towards Innovate products. I guess I can hook up two O2 sensors in parallel (one in the manifold, one in the exhaust pipe) and compare them as well, but no matter what values they would show it still wouldn't quite make sense. Oh dear what a miserable effortpost, but any well-founded ideas on what could cause this would be appreciated as my mental health is on the line here.
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Aug 19, 2018 22:20
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I still don't quite know what happened, but it's better now. This weekend I hooked up two wideband o2 sensors, one in the stock port in the manifold, and one down in the exhaust pipe. And by all accounts, the one in the manifold (which is exactly the same sensor and controller as I started out with) now shows reasonable values, but the downstream one still is insanely lean. My only guess to what happened is a horrible temperature-dependent exhaust leak was also sucking in oxygen and disturbing the sensor which is just a few centimeters above the flange between the manifold and the exhaust pipe. When we took the exhaust off to weld in the sensor bung and reattached it, it somehow made it slightly better so now it only affects the downstream sensor but not the one in the manifold. Everything still doesn't quite make sense, but I have some kind of working O2 sensor and I'm happy with that for now. After some more tweaking and tuning, I took it for a short drive (with TunerStudio "VE Analyze Live" running), and it actually drives reasonably well. Still very grumpy from a standing start (when pressing the accelerator every so slightly), at quick accelerations or at full throttle, but it generally seems to work. The engine also sounds a lot smoother than the old one, I never went past 4000rpm but around there the old Z24 made a horrible "please take me out of my misery" racket which is no longer present. I haven't been pushing it hard enough to notice any additional power from it, but everything apart from a lovely tune at least seems to be in the right place. Including the clutch, which is always something I'm nervous about after replacing. In short, the truck is now only slightly less useable than it was before I started the engine swap, so almost there now! For now I'm going to keep the sensor where it is, even if it is slightly too close to the engine, and try to cover the exhaust leak in repair goop. I made a flange of probably way too thin steel (4-5mm), and it is probably not at all flat enough, and I'll try to get a hold of some 8mm or so and make a new attempt. Will hack up the exhaust anyway to install a catalytic converter (for subjective reasons I cannot quite explain), and I'll do that at the same time as the flange. I was experimenting a bit with the SCV when I lost my mind over the O2 sensor, and I think last state it was in was that the solenoid was getting a signal but the vacuum wouldn't move the actuator. It's possible I hooked it up to the wrong port on the intake (not a proper vacuum port), will have to measure how it looks. I did take note of where all the lines went when I took it apart and routed all the things that were left in the same way, but it's entirely possible I got something wrong.
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Aug 28, 2018 19:38
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