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Shockeh
Feb 24, 2009

Now be a dear and
fuck the fuck off.
The amount of Sky Is Falling this thread delights in is delicious. Criminals folks, totally not winning anything ever.

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Somberbrero
Feb 14, 2009

ꜱʜʀɪᴍᴘ?
I mean, if they ever gave Criminal good breakers or the influence to import them, it'd be pretty drat scary. I agree the new ID is non-competitive but it is a tough balacing act with their early game advantage.

fomo sacer
Feb 14, 2007

Shockeh posted:

The amount of Sky Is Falling this thread delights in is delicious. Criminals folks, totally not winning anything ever.

Criminal has and will win plenty, just not with Khan as an ID.

berenzen
Jan 23, 2012

Honestly, the only thing that criminals need is some way to recur breakers, Paperclip is and once you have a mongoose or two up, you're safe. But losing gordian/Zu because you facechecked into a destroyer, then losing because your opponent manages to throw up a pair of codegates on a scoring remote is kinda annoying.

I mean, I win plenty with my Leela deck, but I've lost a couple times because I got my gordian blade killed by cobra or enforcing loyalty, and have no real way to get it back.

berenzen fucked around with this message at 17:59 on Sep 14, 2016

fomo sacer
Feb 14, 2007

Maybe it's a good thing that the faction with the most tools to get into a server with zero breakers installed has the hardest time getting back their destroyed programs.

CodfishCartographer
Feb 23, 2010

Gadus Maprocephalus

Pillbug
Surprised Nero didn't take off more, since he eliminates almost all of the need for recursion.

sonatinas
Apr 15, 2003

Seattle Karate Vs. L.A. Karate

CodfishCartographer posted:

Surprised Nero didn't take off more, since he eliminates almost all of the need for recursion.


nero doesn't help against batty. And it's once per turn. Leela, Andy, and Gabe get you to 7 a lot better.

berenzen
Jan 23, 2012

Static Equilibrium posted:

Maybe it's a good thing that the faction with the most tools to get into a server with zero breakers installed has the hardest time getting back their destroyed programs.

I don't disagree. Biggest trick is how to not make the game completely unwinnable if a runner can't get into any server.

Yithian
Jun 19, 2005

berenzen posted:

I don't disagree. Biggest trick is how to not make the game completely unwinnable if a runner can't get into any server.

... without making it so that the runner doesn't have to actually make runs in order to win.

Zephro
Nov 23, 2000

I suppose I could part with one and still be feared...
Criminal can win, the complaint is a lot of inf goes on very basic things so there's not much variety.

I presume the idea with Khan was economic warfare, which fits the cycle theme. Golden is inefficient but if you can make stacks of cash with Contract and the usual Criminal money tricks then you can force the Corp to pay rez costs many times over for the same piece of ICE. It's a good and cool idea, but 12 inf just seems to kneecap the ID. Maybe there are more cards coming that will help?

Agree about Nero though. I thought he might be a sleeper hit because he makes you much less likely to ever have programs trashed, but I guess not.

CodfishCartographer
Feb 23, 2010

Gadus Maprocephalus

Pillbug

sonatinas posted:

nero doesn't help against batty. And it's once per turn. Leela, Andy, and Gabe get you to 7 a lot better.

Yeah, I forgot about Batty. I feel like Nero and Khan are getting close to having super aggressive from the start criminal runners, but they just fall short. I wonder if they used to be stronger and needed kneecapping?

I've also always thought the method of "criminal breakers being expensive but criminals get more money" is weird. I mean it works in theory, and on paper it also means that they have more money to deal with Corp stuff if they can get in cheap using their non-breaker tools. It just kinda winds up falling apart somewhere along the line

fomo sacer
Feb 14, 2007

Khan would be pretty interesting if the ability worked in the way you'd hope with stuff like Crescentus and False Echo and Copycat, or on a successful or unsuccessful run, or on jack out, or on initiating a run, but passing a piece of ice is without hyperbole the least useful time to ever install a program.

VVV edit: dang there goes my khan pheromones-lamprey deck which is probably better in gabe anyways.

fomo sacer fucked around with this message at 20:48 on Sep 14, 2016

StashAugustine
Mar 24, 2013

Do not trust in hope- it will betray you! Only faith and hatred sustain.

e: ^^^ icebreaker not even programs in general

Man if it was 'when you encounter' then we'd be cooking

CodfishCartographer
Feb 23, 2010

Gadus Maprocephalus

Pillbug

Static Equilibrium posted:

passing a piece of ice is without hyperbole the least useful time to ever install a program.

I’m trying to think of when you’d want to install an Icebreaker after passing by a piece of ice, and have it be useful for more than purely just saving a click+credit. I can only think of two situations where it’s useful:

Using Inside Job on a server with an unrezzed piece of ice, then a rezzed piece of ice behind it which you don’t have the icebreaker installed for. The corp has to rez the outermost ice, which you pass with Inside Job, then you surprise installed the icebreaker for the rezzed ice.

Running on an unrezzed piece of ice that’s in front of a rezzed piece of ice, the corp will just assume you have the means of breaking the rezzed ice in your hand so they’ll have to pay to stop you from passing the unrezzed ice. Hope it’s not a sentry I guess.

That’s it, I think???

TheParadigm
Dec 10, 2009

CodfishCartographer posted:


Running on an unrezzed piece of ice that’s in front of a rezzed piece of ice, the corp will just assume you have the means of breaking the rezzed ice in your hand so they’ll have to pay to stop you from passing the unrezzed ice. Hope it’s not a sentry I guess.

That’s it, I think???

Midrun femme off a stimhack.

You hit a weak server you're equipped for, then siphon HQ.

I'm also curious if it make Deva shenanigans worth it; as you only need to drop one to open up the whole box of swapping them in and out.

All that just makes me think of LLDS shenigans, really. I was eyeing deuces wild and thinking that expose effects let you know what you need to drop later, but chameleon for a buck doesn't sound too bad.

TheParadigm fucked around with this message at 00:00 on Sep 15, 2016

WFGuy
Feb 18, 2011

Press X to jump, then press X again!
Toilet Rascal
Correct, cheap Chameleon with LLDS is nice. The problem is, each Chameleon is 3inf, so for 2 Chameleons and 3 LLDS you're running at 9 of your maximum 12inf already. If you want recursion, that'll be 2 or 3 of the remaining 3 - and you really want recursion, else you're risking your entire strategy on something that can be ended by a single Enforcing Loyalty or successful Trash Program subroutine. Even then, once you have everything out (the hard way - no Replicator for you, Khan!), your main breaker suite can only hit Str6, and we're in the Sandburg meta now. You also can't afford something like Beth Kilrain-Chang to give you a leg up against that, so your opening hand must contain a Polop as well as the start of your breaker suite in order for you to hit HQ and install Polop before they can rez Sandburg.

Or you could rely on Crypsis to get in, I suppose, but not even Criminals have that kind of dough if they can't make successful runs.

Shrecknet
Jan 2, 2005


This is what happens when jinteki bugs out

berenzen
Jan 23, 2012

New HB card got spoiled today. Kinda meh, I think the decks that want to run it are going to be really short on influence, and you want to run 2-3 to make sure you have it when it matters.

Card details for reference
1 cost, 2 inf HB
Name a card, remove all copies of that card in the heap from the game.

CirclMastr
Jul 4, 2010

I'm not sure it's worth the influence outside of HB just to snipe out Paperclip, but I have seen a lot more Chronos Project recently, so what do I know about meta calls.

HB glacier is probably going to want it just to remove Rumor Mill after playing ELP or the like.

AgentF
May 11, 2009

berenzen posted:

New HB card got spoiled today. Kinda meh, I think the decks that want to run it are going to be really short on influence, and you want to run 2-3 to make sure you have it when it matters.

Card details for reference
1 cost, 2 inf HB
Name a card, remove all copies of that card in the heap from the game.

OH MY GOD YES!

Levy! As soon as possible Levy! Name Levy against MaxX. WHERE IS YOUR SAME OLD THING NOW?!!!

StashAugustine
Mar 24, 2013

Do not trust in hope- it will betray you! Only faith and hatred sustain.

:stare:

PJOmega
May 5, 2009

berenzen posted:

New HB card got spoiled today. Kinda meh, I think the decks that want to run it are going to be really short on influence, and you want to run 2-3 to make sure you have it when it matters.

Card details for reference
1 cost, 2 inf HB
Name a card, remove all copies of that card in the heap from the game.

Another silver bullet.

Man I wish they'd just up the minimum deck size by 15 for tournaments. Give us some room.

berenzen
Jan 23, 2012

Only time you really need to Levy as MaXx is if you lose your entire DLR rig, or you're playing vs. Kill. If you get your DLR set up early, then it doesn't matter, you can probably mill them out before they need to kill you. And at 2 influence, it's hard to slot in into Weyland, who needs HHN/Sea Source to enable kill, or NBN, who needs to slot influence for Boom or Scorched earth. Prisec is really easily telegraphed as well, so don't count on that for landing tags that stick.

I can maybe see it in Potential Unleashed, but I'd rather Dedication Ceremony, Sensies and GFI as my influence rather than the 2 influence for it. Chronos Protocol maybe, but that's not a competitive deck, and I don't think this card will be good enough for it.

If anything it'll see play in Custom Biotics, which can use it to kill off shaper bull. Maybe as a slot in HB to knock out rumour mills or clippy. It suffers really hard from 60th card syndrome.

StashAugustine
Mar 24, 2013

Do not trust in hope- it will betray you! Only faith and hatred sustain.

Still even then, being able to eliminate Runner recursion with no counterplay is pretty fuckin' big.

sonatinas
Apr 15, 2003

Seattle Karate Vs. L.A. Karate
Corps need the help and can help people who can't deal with DLR or other like decks.

berenzen
Jan 23, 2012

The big issue is that sniping Levy is probably not a good play. The game plays so fast that a lot of decks never actually use levy, unless it's Cams, and Cams isn't fast enough for the speed that the game plays at, unless they get a really good start. The amount of times that I;ve seem levy

Like it's not a bad card, it's just alright in HB, and I'm having issue trying to come up with one card, let alone 3, to cut to put in for this card.

berenzen fucked around with this message at 06:32 on Sep 18, 2016

The Deleter
May 22, 2010
I wanna put that in Weyland to remove I've Had Worse from games, but I don't think I could find any influence to drop. Plus it's another silver bullet which I dislike on principle, and you can recur it which is going to be batshit.

Good corp cards! Yaaaaay!

Shockeh
Feb 24, 2009

Now be a dear and
fuck the fuck off.
How the loving fuckity gently caress is a card that names any card a silver bullet. :psyduck:

TheParadigm
Dec 10, 2009

Shockeh posted:

How the loving fuckity gently caress is a card that names any card a silver bullet. :psyduck:

Name what you're likely to use it against.

Rigged Death Trap
Feb 13, 2012

BEEP BEEP BEEP BEEP


Is this an official card?
loving lol if so.

fomo sacer
Feb 14, 2007

Rigged Death Trap posted:


Is this an official card?
loving lol if so.

It's not.

berenzen posted:

Like it's not a bad card, it's just alright in HB, and I'm having issue trying to come up with one card, let alone 3, to cut to put in for this card.
It seems like a bad card to me, but I also thought museum of history was a mediocre gimmick card and we saw how that turned out...

Edit--it'll lead to blowouts when people try to get too cute with paperclip which'll be pretty funny when it happens

fomo sacer fucked around with this message at 10:41 on Sep 18, 2016

Shockeh
Feb 24, 2009

Now be a dear and
fuck the fuck off.

TheParadigm posted:

Name what you're likely to use it against.

Clone Chip
Account Siphon
Levy
Paperclip
Any other breaker I hit with Rototurret (Or God forbid, Batty)
Cache (Noise, Hayley Panopticon, Geist)
Parasite (When Clone is installed)
Same Old Thing (Post a tag trash)
Any card hit with Salem's

Yes, it's obvious target is Levy for SOT, but that just means the Levy stays in hand. It's FAR more useful for targeted exile after you take something out that might otherwise be recurred.

Deus Ex is a silver bullet, because it's so narrowly targeted. This just isn't.

Shockeh
Feb 24, 2009

Now be a dear and
fuck the fuck off.

Shockeh posted:

Clone Chip
Account Siphon
Levy
Paperclip
Any other breaker I hit with Rototurret (Or God forbid, Batty)
Cache (Pitchfork, Noise)
Camera (Hayley Panopticon, Geist)
Parasite (When Clone is installed)
Same Old Thing (Post a tag trash)
Any card hit with Salem's

Yes, it's obvious target is Levy for SOT, but that just means the Levy stays in hand. It's FAR more useful for targeted exile after you take something out that might otherwise be recurred.

Deus Ex is a silver bullet, because it's so narrowly targeted. This just isn't.

Quote is not Edit, will fix when not phone posting!

Shockeh fucked around with this message at 10:46 on Sep 18, 2016

The Deleter
May 22, 2010
I apologise - it is, in fact, a poo poo solution for Runner recursion.

E: okay, that's not fair. But I don't think it's a solution to Runner recursion that I like from a design perspective. You can recur this with Jackson and just slowly remove a fair portion of the runner's deck from the game. I can see a really awful prison deck with this in becoming popular.

E2: also they put it in the faction with the most recursion.

The Deleter fucked around with this message at 13:46 on Sep 18, 2016

Zephro
Nov 23, 2000

I suppose I could part with one and still be feared...
It seems like a reasonable card but thematically feels like it maybe ought to be Weyland.

The Deleter
May 22, 2010
It doesn't make poor amounts of money nor is it bad. Definitely not Weyland.

berenzen
Jan 23, 2012

New runner card is absolutely bonkers

quote:

Net Mercur (Unique)
3 Cost 3(?) inf
Resource- Virtual Stealth
The first time each run you spend a stealth credit place 1 credit on Net Mercur or Draw 1 card.

Use these credits for anything

berenzen fucked around with this message at 07:42 on Sep 19, 2016

CirclMastr
Jul 4, 2010

berenzen posted:

New runner card is absolutely bonkers

:stonklol:

Is it time to take Foxfire out of the binder?

AgentF
May 11, 2009
Where are these spoilers coming from?

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berenzen
Jan 23, 2012

The ANRPC SMC stream

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