|
Dead Cosmonaut posted:More importantly, what could I do to support the Natives? Something I'd like to know as well. I'm still loving pissed about the Iowa Utilities Board being all a-okay with using eminent domain seizures for the Bakken pipeline across Iowa. Eminent domain is not meant to prop up private loving industries over the general public.
|
#
¿
Sep 8, 2016 06:38
|
|
|
|
| # ¿ Apr 28, 2024 12:12 |
|
|
moller posted:The story doesn't fit into the election narrative, or an of the larger left vs. right narratives - petrochemical companies are proudly bipartisan. I think it's both in this case, as isn't part of the argument eminent domain abuse to get the land in the first place?
|
|
#
¿
Sep 9, 2016 08:57
|
|
|
KiteAuraan posted:Or, after losing a battle to a confederacy of local Tribes to steal their land and build an expansion of the Loop 202 right through Moahdak Do'ag (South Mountain) you eminent domain a bunch of homes in Ahwatukee, still have to plow straight through or very near to another Reservation and the mountain and then clean through a low-income area that is mostly Hispanic, to slam into the I-10 at 59th Ave, so that the white rear end people who live in the suburbs of Litchfield Park, Surprise and Goodyear don't have to have their little lives inconvenienced sitting in traffic downtown on the way to their jobs at the Intel plant in Chandler because there are no jobs in the West Valley. gently caress local Arizona politicians. Don't forget that McCain couldn't get the Rio Tinto deal on Apache Leap passed in AZ, so the enormous poo poo bag turned it into a rider on last year's must-pass Defense Appropriations bill.
|
|
#
¿
Sep 9, 2016 12:29
|
|
|
MrChupon posted:Is the state eminent-domaning this land for a private company? Why don't they just build around the reservation, it seems like its not that much extra mileage on a pipeline going all the way from ND to IL? Yep, this is common for these pipeline projects lately. Oil company bitches that trains to move oil costs too much, state hurries through a cursory environmental impact study then starts waving the eminent domain hammer at anyone in the way that won't sell because they want what they think will be huge tax revenues. Liquid Communism fucked around with this message at 01:34 on Sep 10, 2016 |
|
#
¿
Sep 10, 2016 01:24
|
|
|
CommieGIR posted:Or the wonderful meme going around: "12,000 temporary construction jobs!" PoorMoralCompass posted:Those poor armed law enforcement officers and corparate 'security firm' with attack dogs. To provide context, that's Bill Gerhard, president of the Iowa State Building & Construction Trades Council. He's going to suck all the oil company dick possible because these pipelines stand to make people he represents good money in sweet short term construction projects with an extra tip to rush before a legal challenge succeeds. Disgusting that a union man is so happy to characterize a picket line as dangerous, but hey, FYGM. Notice how happy he is that the Iowa Utilities Board (which consists of three people) decided to reaffirm that they were cool with authorizing eminent domain last week to force landowners who don't want to have an oil pipeline run though their goddamn farmland to sell.
|
|
#
¿
Sep 10, 2016 01:34
|
|
|
Did someone finally wake up the single senior loving citizen at the DOJ responsored for reminding them that they have treaty obligations?
|
|
#
¿
Sep 10, 2016 14:05
|
|
|
WorldsStrongestNerd posted:As a sperglord, I say yay trains and gently caress pipelines. We already have the infrastructure to move the oil, train tracks and railcars. When the oil runs out, those tracks will still be used to haul other cargo, and those railcars can be repurposed. There is no need to build new infrastructure and cause all this trouble just so the oil companies can get their dicks sucked a little faster. Runs out, or like happened to the tar sands, just becomes economically unprofitable.
|
|
#
¿
Sep 11, 2016 13:18
|
|
|
Exactly. Here for example : http://highline.huffingtonpost.com/articles/en/welcome-to-beautiful-parkersburg/ quote:Until that happens, these substances will continue to spread, unchecked. Not long ago, the Little Hocking water district commissioned a study to see whether any of the C8 replacements were contaminating the town’s aquifer. Researchers tested worms unearthed from Little Hocking’s well field, a scraggly meadow overlooking the vast expanse of storage tanks and smokestacks at the Washington Works plant. They found a number of C8’s chemical cousins, including C5, C6, C7, C9 and C10. Once again, local residents may have been unwittingly exposed to toxins whose ultimate effect on human health is unknown. TL:DR : DuPont covers up chemical byproducts of Teflon production contaminating the watershed for the town next to their Washington Works plant for decades with Perfluorooctanoic acid, a toxic and carcinogenic chemical that persists indefinitely in the environment and builds up in those consuming it. Associations with increased rates of birth defect and several types of cancer. quote:In late 2012, scientists at Emory University compared health risks in workers at a DuPont chemical plant in West Virginia with high PFOA exposure to the risks of the same diseases in other regional DuPont factory workers and in the US population. In comparison with the other DuPont workers, workers at the high-PFOA plant were at roughly three times the risk of dying of mesothelioma or chronic kidney disease, and roughly twice the risk of dying of diabetes mellitus. Workers were at similarly elevated risk for kidney cancer and for non-cancer kidney diseases. In rodents, PFOA concentrates in the kidneys. Yet the only way it got brought up was Huffpo investigative journalism last year, and DuPont long since settled a class-action lawsuit from those effected with a waiver of further claims of damages. I bring this up here specifically because DuPont is a relatively well thought of company in the chemical and petrochemical business, and this is business as usual for them.
|
|
#
¿
Sep 13, 2016 09:22
|
|
|
Civilized Fishbot posted:Actually, they are Yeah, that's the thing this idiot is missing. If the land is theirs by treaty, they are under no obligation to cooperate with allowing a private interest to exploit it. Full stop. In point of fact, depending on the terms of the treaty, the federal government may be obliged to back that up with force of arms. We aren't talking 'someone shot a native and now they're all restless', this is the basics of literally every interaction the native American nations have had with the US government for more than a century. Liquid Communism fucked around with this message at 10:24 on Nov 2, 2016 |
|
#
¿
Nov 2, 2016 10:21
|
|
|
And as has been pointed out to you repeatedly, there is indication that both the specific area noted is contested as being included under treaty, -and- any contamination generated by a pipeline mishap would directly contaminate the watershed for the reservation. Again, the same reason it was moved south after the white folks in Bismarck complained, indicating that the company considered this a valid enough argument to act on.
|
|
#
¿
Nov 2, 2016 10:28
|
|
|
mitztronic posted:It shouldn't be put anywhere. We shouldn't be building oil pipelines in 2016, period. This is a moral issues as far as I'm concerned, I'm against any oil pipelines. I don't care if people in Illinois or wherever want gas that is 5% cheaper. We especially shouldn't be using Eminent Domain (as happened in at least the Iowa leg of this pipeline) for the benefit of private enterprise.
|
|
#
¿
Nov 2, 2016 22:35
|
|
|
coyo7e posted:For reference to someone not living in the PNW, my personal energy bill is 5.27 cents per kilowatt-hour (you can find this, it's itemized on your power bill), which means that the actual electricity-used part of my bill for my current place I live came to like 16 bucks for the month of July (I used 306 KWH), on this bill I just had in a nearby drawer - which is shockingly lower than a lot of places back east, ignoring the water portion or service fees. To give you a comparison, I paid 11.17 cents per kilowatt-hour on last month's bill in Iowa. MidAmerican, our provider, surprise, surprise is an IOU.
|
|
#
¿
Nov 3, 2016 00:50
|
|
|
coyo7e posted:I've actually been thinking about starting a thread along these lines of the stuff I've been talking about here, for the last few days, and maybe tossing it up in in A/T or something.. I was mostly hoping to find a few other folks with some background in energy mgmt or facilities and infrastructure maintenance and controls before tossing up an OP and looking like the wet behind the ears intern that I still am. MidAmerican is doing a ton of work in that direction. Putting in literal billions of dollars of wind infrastructure right now.
|
|
#
¿
Nov 3, 2016 01:30
|
|
|
Gobbeldygook posted:They signed a treaty with us. Some land that used to be theirs according to that treaty no longer is because we took it back by force (there is currently a billion dollar apology sitting in a government bank account for them if they would just accept it), but none of that land includes the land the pipeline runs on. This has to be a troll post. You've way overplayed your hand.
|
|
#
¿
Nov 4, 2016 04:28
|
|
|
poo poo, it's almost like, in living memory, the Corps of Engineers flooded one of the most resource-dense parts of the reservation because they wanted to put a lake there.
|
|
#
¿
Nov 4, 2016 06:13
|
|
|
gfsincere posted:It's almost like it happened in our parents lifetime or something...weird right? I know! And there's this strange thing in the back of my head where I kinda remember the Navajo nation having a huge disaster recently because the EPA accidentally let loose a bunch of wastewater from a capped mine into their drinking water supply. Funny that.
|
|
#
¿
Nov 4, 2016 06:19
|
|
|
Or he could be proposing that the ongoing violations of the terms of the treaties which won that land from the natives somewhat invalidates the treaties. It's never been a big issue, since we've pushed the tribes onto bad enough land and denied them resources long enough that they've never been in a position to take reprisals, but at no point does that make it right. Edit : phone spell gud Liquid Communism fucked around with this message at 08:37 on Nov 4, 2016 |
|
#
¿
Nov 4, 2016 08:35
|
|
|
Condiv posted:if they don't legally own the land does eminent domain even enter into play? anyway, this Yet they still would anyway. Sections of this very pipeline through Iowa were obtained via eminent domain because there were holdouts who refused to sell.
|
|
#
¿
Nov 4, 2016 20:26
|
|
|
If anything it's just as bad if she got hit by accident, because it indicates that the police in question were shooting without paying attention to their backdrop.
|
|
#
¿
Nov 5, 2016 08:27
|
|
|
twodot posted:How is this related? Sure if you were shooting rubber bullets, the police would have a reasonable fear for their lives. If someone later reported you shot a bunch of police I would call them dishonest. Lots of things "shoot" stuff: staple guns, pitching machines, whatever, if, in the context of a police interaction, someone reports that a person was shot with no other information, I expect it to be with a firearm and normal ammunition. I'm not going to pause and ask "Oh, what if they meant with a paintball?" A paintball would be a different thing entirely. Rubber bullets are, like tasers, a less lethal option than normal firearms. Not a nonlethal option. So the point here is that potenilly lethal force was used on a reporter, either intentionally by an officer, or just because she was in the area and they didn't care what was beyond their target.
|
|
#
¿
Nov 5, 2016 18:42
|
|
|
Do you have a better word for 'propelled a projectile out of a firearm via expansion of gasses from a gunpowder explosion' than shoot? Because it's an accurate description here.
|
|
#
¿
Nov 5, 2016 19:07
|
|
|
twodot posted:If you say "I'm going to shoot you" and then you fire a blank or a rubber bullet, I'm going to be surprised regardless of the injury I sustain. Maybe when you hear "I'm going to shoot you" you think "well, they didn't specify the type of ammunition, so the ammunition could be anything, including nothing", but I don't think that is an ordinary reaction. And yet it'd be just as valid if I pulled out a crossbow and put a bolt in your leg. Piss off with this pedantic derail.
|
|
#
¿
Nov 5, 2016 20:33
|
|
|
qkkl posted:Why doesn't the company just sign a contract with the land owners stating that if an accident happens then the company will pay for all damages, such as the water being polluted? Because the company understands that they will, in fact, eventually have an accident; thus it is in their favor not to make such agreements because they will impede the company's lawyers from their arguments in court regarding the scope of damages to be paid.
|
|
#
¿
Nov 6, 2016 10:17
|
|
|
wateroverfire posted:It's a problem if you live in society and benefit from infrastructure. =/ I see you suffer from a category mistake here. Not all infrastructure is public infrastructure. Public infrastructure is good and often necessary. This project, while industrial transport infrastructure, is not public infrastructure. It is a privately owned concern's method of easing their shipping costs and increasing throughput. It is not in any way intended serve the public good save indirectly via providing minor employment effects. Edited to avoid oncoming pedantry. Liquid Communism fucked around with this message at 02:06 on Nov 16, 2016 |
|
#
¿
Nov 16, 2016 02:01
|
|
|
Tias posted:I'm tempted to flow with the happiness, but with Trump invested in the pipeline and having stated that he's going to move them forward, things could get really ugly. Note that the cops are apparently trying to break up crowds of protestors tonight with water cannons. In sub-freezing windy temps.
|
|
#
¿
Nov 21, 2016 11:55
|
|
|
I see you came by that big red title honestly. Got any more authoritarianism to shill for while you're here? 
Liquid Communism fucked around with this message at 10:09 on Nov 23, 2016 |
|
#
¿
Nov 22, 2016 06:43
|
|
|
Elendil004 posted:They only have to clear them out so the pipeline can be completed, no? Just round everyone up and stick them in fenced off camps while the wheels of justice slowly turn. Because the feds don't want to be liable for the body count. This has gotten enough attention that going full on Battle of Blair Mountain isn't going to play out well in the media. inkblot posted:While it's possible that's a Freudian slip... T and Y are right next to one another on the keyboard. Yeah, just a phone posting typo. That's been fixed now.
|
|
#
¿
Nov 23, 2016 10:11
|
|
|
KiteAuraan posted:How in the flying gently caress did that fly past NAGPRA, ARPA and NHPA? 
|
|
#
¿
Nov 23, 2016 11:26
|
|
|
DeusExMachinima posted:If you take a look at photos of people who've been injured by flashbangs, like that kid in the crib a while back, flashbangs leave burn wounds. Potentially very severe ones. They don't blast open your arm down to the bone. Something else caused that and whether the cops were throwing lethal grenades or the girl had an explosive device, someone made a really bad decision. I don't know if you fully understand how concussion propagates though flesh. Broken upper arm bones and burst flesh from shoulder to elbow is fully consistent with a concussion grenade going off on the inside of the arm, according to medics.
|
|
#
¿
Nov 23, 2016 21:52
|
|
|
coyo7e posted:I find it telling that the nation's police forces are more willing to use non-lethal and lethal force against unarmed protestors - than they are about actual armed rebels. I wish it was surprising, but you know how it goes with authoritarians. They're at their happiest when they can apply the maximum amount of remotely justifiable force to a target which is not a threat to them.
|
|
#
¿
Nov 24, 2016 01:40
|
|
|
Here's an easy one for you to parse: if we assume that police were justified in the use of less-lethal weaponry against protestors, how do you justify the lack of any significant number of arrests? Remember, this is a bunch of people in the middle of nowhere, so they aren't going to run six blocks then suddenly be normal pedestrians. Further, if propane tank based IEDS are in use as claimed by the local Sherrif's spokeswoman, why is the BATFE not crawling down their necks? Liquid Communism fucked around with this message at 13:33 on Nov 24, 2016 |
|
#
¿
Nov 24, 2016 13:23
|
|
|
Never thought I'd see people having to explain that the law is not inherently moral in TYOOL 2016, but some people are just that dense. Laws are written, passed, and enforced by people, who have their own agendas. Of course their laws reflect that.
|
|
#
¿
Nov 24, 2016 19:59
|
|
|
I think the better underlying question is why DXE here and the media in general are so comfortable and in fact flatly eager to try and draw a false equivalency of power between heavily armed police 'tactical' forces using federally-supplied military surplus gear and a bunch of unarmed people attempting to walk across a bridge. It certainly makes it easier to justify use of force when you frame in it a manner that suggests the police are in any way under physical threat, doesn't it.
|
|
#
¿
Nov 25, 2016 01:36
|
|
|
Nonsense posted:I think this was why I thought Obama was so silent on the issue, because it was on a private individual's owned land, and not treaty-tribe land. My God Obama. It's okay. Pretending the Treaty of Fort Laramie didn't happen is traditional at this point.
|
|
#
¿
Nov 25, 2016 04:21
|
|
|
Dead Reckoning posted:Okay, but the crossing point on the Missouri river is about 26 minutes north of the 46th parallel, the northernmost border of the territory addressed by the Treaty of Ft Laramie, so I'm wondering which treaty specifically you're referring to. You should check your treaty borders. Per the 1851 treaty, the Sioux claim goes north to the confluence of the Heart and Missouri rivers at Mandan, just across the river to the west of Bismarck. Of course, that got moved back a bit once the US decided to violate that treaty wholesale due to gold having been discovered in the Black Hills. Does the name George Armstrong Custer ring a bell?
|
|
#
¿
Nov 25, 2016 06:30
|
|
|
Volcott posted:Cops, like most people, subscribe to the "I'm going to extra careful around people who have tried to murder me in the recent past" school of thought. Yet they scream bloody murder and start making up charges when people do the same where police are concerned. Aren't double standards fun? Clearly it's just a few bad apples among the protestors, and they should be allowed to conduct an internal investigation to determine if those people need to be reprimanded.
|
|
#
¿
Nov 25, 2016 10:35
|
|
|
Dead Reckoning posted:It appears that claim was superseded by the 1868 treaty, which was prior to the 1877 Black Hills war and the seizure of the Black Hills. Interesting to note, it appears that during the prelude to the signing of both treaties, the Sioux/Lakota used the US Army as a lever to displace other tribes and claim their land, so if you are going with the argument that all land ceded under duress is invalid, the situation is a little more complicated. More complicated, but mostly due to the 1860's being full of wars between the Sioux and other tribes across the Dakotas, Montana, Wyoming, and Colorado and the US. Mostly over further intrusion by white settlers due to the Bozeman gold rush, Pike's Peak gold rush, and Oregon trail, none of which the US bothered enforcing their treaty obligations to keep out of Indian Territory, and moved in with armed force to protect when they were met with a hostile response.
|
|
#
¿
Nov 25, 2016 19:14
|
|
|
Looks like the CoE decided to take a side. Chicago Tribune is reporting that they're closing access to everything north of the Cannonball River as of 5 Dec. https://www.google.com/amp/www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/ct-pipeline-protest-boycott-bismarck-businesses-20161125-story,amp.html As far as why the line was moved,supposedly the more northerly route apparently didn't pass CoE environmental assessment due to being too close to the wells Bismarck draws part of its water supply from. http://bismarcktribune.com/news/sta...8d386c933c.html Liquid Communism fucked around with this message at 04:05 on Nov 26, 2016 |
|
#
¿
Nov 26, 2016 04:00
|
|
|
A Yolo Wizard posted:TFR issued over standing rock (gently caress off faa) Gotta clear that airspace of drones and any chance of news helicopters before the cops move in to knock over the camps. After all, it wouldn't do to have realtime video of their actions broadcast before devices they were being recorded with were seized and accidentally erased.
|
|
#
¿
Nov 26, 2016 07:50
|
|
|
|
| # ¿ Apr 28, 2024 12:12 |
|
|
Silento Boborachi posted:What I'd like is if someone just either cured the europeans of the nasty poo poo they carried, or gave natives their immunity. C'mon monsanto, make a maize that confers smallpox immunity. What would happen when 90% of the population wasn't already wiped out due to disease Don't forget the Oahe Dam as well, which ate another 200,000 acres out of the reservations, mostly prime agricultural areas as well. Seriously, if you don't think these people understand full well just what it is to get hosed sideways via eminent domain and the Army Corps of Engineers, you need to do a bit of reading.
|
|
#
¿
Nov 26, 2016 21:37
|
|
