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WombatCyborg
Apr 2, 2011


I wasn't a fan of the old one anyways, found the guy kinda annoying for some reason. Good to see another take.

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DreamShipWrecked
Jan 11, 2013



And now we have our second visitor, everyone say hello to Miz Kriss!

Episode 6: Extra Spicy

Chimera-gui
Mar 20, 2014


Speak of dark/depressing fan theories there's one for the series Tokyo Mew Mew that states that Ryō Shirogane, the team's boss, is going to die in five years time do to the fact that he injected himself with animal DNA despite not being compatible with it to make sure that the injection process would be safe for the girls.

Now in the sequel, he does say that he's been prepared to die since the project's beginning though whether he meant death by the enemies' hands or his own body shutting down is never explicitly stated.

Chimera-gui fucked around with this message at Sep 19, 2016 around 04:25

Miz Kriss
Mar 17, 2009


And that has some merit and plausibility (I've never seen that show though.) It's just the recent trend of "all your favorite cartoons are really morbid and have a dark history, and you are wrong for disagreeing" just irks me. I mentioned Rugrats in the episode, but there are a million more that can be listed that I seem to be drawing a blank on at the moment.

NGDBSS
Dec 30, 2009

...It shone as if its guts and skin, its bones were phosphorus. As if it were all cold and bright rock. A firefly, a death mask, a wooden skull.
A fegkarion. A moon elemental.


My favorite one is the somewhat tongue-in-cheek idea that a whole bunch of fictional media universes are connected together having been dreamt up in the mind of an autistic child. The idea is that a lot of things are connected together through character crossovers, and in particular St. Elsewhere had a lot of these. But then when the show ended, the implication was that the entirety of St. Elsewhere's timeline was imagined by Tommy Westphall while looking at a snowglobe containing a replica of the titular hospital, which in turn had strange consequences for anything else related to it (and so on).

Apparently some people do take it seriously enough to argue for or against such a hypothesis, but I'd guess that most who know of it consider it to be just a goofy commentary on how connected pieces of fiction can be to one another.

Chimera-gui
Mar 20, 2014


Miz Kriss posted:

And that has some merit and plausibility (I've never seen that show though.) It's just the recent trend of "all your favorite cartoons are really morbid and have a dark history, and you are wrong for disagreeing" just irks me. I mentioned Rugrats in the episode, but there are a million more that can be listed that I seem to be drawing a blank on at the moment.

I actually remember a recurring show for the 3DS' Nintendo Video app called Cartoon Conspiracies which dissects these sort of fan theories.

Fish Noise
Jul 25, 2012

IT'S ME, BURROWS!

IT WAS ME ALL ALONG, BURROWS!


Epic Mickey, which involved Warren Spector, most well known for Deus Ex, which gave us the skul-gun, a superior form of headcanon.

Tiggum
Oct 23, 2007

Mary Worth had an illicit affair with Refurb and kidnapped Sophie when she learned the truth. Little did Sophie know, but she was held in Apartment 3G under the watchful eye of The Phantom until Dick Tracy rescued her. Meanwhile, in spite of everything, Working Daze still sucked.


DreamShipWrecked posted:

And now we have our second visitor, everyone say hello to Miz Kriss!

Episode 6: Extra Spicy
An interesting thing I just noticed: Alice in Madness Returns fights almost exactly like the duchess does in this game.

Miz Kriss posted:

And that has some merit and plausibility (I've never seen that show though.) It's just the recent trend of "all your favorite cartoons are really morbid and have a dark history, and you are wrong for disagreeing" just irks me. I mentioned Rugrats in the episode, but there are a million more that can be listed that I seem to be drawing a blank on at the moment.
Saying that you're wrong for disagreeing is dumb, but coming up with and sharing different interpretations of texts is fun.

DreamShipWrecked
Jan 11, 2013



I don't really have any issues with alternative plot interpretations, they can be a lot of fun and lead to some great ideas. They get dumb when there is absolutely nothing to support them, though, and it just turns into people forcing the story into how *they* want it to be (generally involving someone having sex)

DreamShipWrecked
Jan 11, 2013



If people are curious, these are the photos that I was referencing from the early build of Epic Mickey. Of course, the game turned out pretty different to Alice, but it had similar marks at the start.




Chimera-gui
Mar 20, 2014


DreamShipWrecked posted:

I don't really have any issues with alternative plot interpretations, they can be a lot of fun and lead to some great ideas. They get dumb when there is absolutely nothing to support them, though, and it just turns into people forcing the story into how *they* want it to be (generally involving someone having sex)

There was one reasonable sounding one about Codename: Kids Next Door being an extremely elaborate game of spies told from the kids' perspective which would how utterly batshit bonkers the world of that series would be otherwise.

DreamShipWrecked
Jan 11, 2013



Today we are very lost.

Episode 7: Twisty Turvey Branches


Just a heads up, my work life balance is very unbalanced this week and therefore Friday's update might be late or moved to monday, I'll update here and Twitter as I know more.

E. Also to clarify a quote, it's "How fine you look when dressed in rage. Your enemies are fortunate your condition is not permanent. And you're lucky too; red eyes suit so few". I love it.

DreamShipWrecked fucked around with this message at Sep 20, 2016 around 04:33

Crabtree
Oct 17, 2012


There was no way in hell the concept art for whatever garbage Apocalypse Disney Land Epic Mickey may have initially been would have taken shape. They wouldn't even let Bethesda or that lovely Fountain of Dreams game make facsimiles of Disney Land. There's no way they'd let people see what the Florida of 20 years could look like.

DreamShipWrecked
Jan 11, 2013



Crabtree posted:

There was no way in hell the concept art for whatever garbage Apocalypse Disney Land Epic Mickey may have initially been would have taken shape. They wouldn't even let Bethesda or that lovely Fountain of Dreams game make facsimiles of Disney Land. There's no way they'd let people see what the Florida of 20 years could look like.

Oh I have no doubt that Disney would have never allowed any tarnish to come to their brand, they guard that stuff like a dog and its bone. It would have just made for an interesting game

Chimera-gui
Mar 20, 2014


When it comes to recurring actors, two that I'll recognize immediately are Derek Stephen Prince and Paul St. Peter if only because of their roles in Digimon as DemiDevimon/Veemon/Impmon/Ken and Leomon/Wormmon respectively.

resurgam40
Jul 22, 2007

Like I'd fall for something like this, Witches don't 'exist', I won't accept it...! Something like you shouldn't 'exist', because this is a human world! You think I could accept something that's not human?! I definitely won't accept it!!

Lord_Magmar posted:

The story is another subjective thing. From what I recall it's well played out at least, and an interesting take on the themes it's discussing. I don't recall it ever treating the player like an idiot either, it just uses a particular language and writing style.

The story was the sticking point for me when I played the game, and that "particular language and writing style" was most of the reason why. This game serves as a good comparison: both use an archaic style to invoke the spirit of the time while being offputtingly creepy, but there's doing that while still maintaining a sense of narrative cohesion and sense of character, and then there's just throwing all of the dark weirdness you can into dialogue that could be switched around from scene to scene and still make the same amount of sense. Which means that I don't really get that one goons complaint that Madness Returns spells everything out for the gamer- I found it just the opposite, needlessly obtuse to the point that I wondered aloud if they even knew where they were going with things anymore. They also used the terrible old bugbear of sexual abuse as a plot point, which just made everything worse... I'm not saying that you can't tell a good story using that element, but it does take a lot of research and effort to actually incorporate that element in a manner that is respectful and not just darkness for darkness' sake. American McGee may not be the worlds best writer but at least all of the creepy bits of the game are things Charlie Dodgeson might have actually done, or are within the spirit of literary nonsense.

Madness Returns is a very pretty game, though, if not quite as imaginative as was promised. If you really want your heart broken, you should see the artbook, which turned out to be a litany of awesome things they might have had, but ran out of time and resources to do... thus we get a pretty interesting dress-up and corridor simulator.

But yes, I agree with the OP on the soundtrack of this game, subtly creepy while still being slow-paced and not too obtrusive. Some of Chris Vrenna's best work in my opinion.... seriously, just listen to this!

DreamShipWrecked
Jan 11, 2013



The "surprise sex as drama" back story of Madness Returns is a bit hamfisted, but I do like how they presented it in the London scenes. The first time you go through the game you just write off the kids, what they are saying and the signs that they are wearing, because you have your own objectives to complete. But that ended up being the whole point of the story, that Alice (and by extention thr player) was so wrapped up in her issues and her Wonderland that she completely ignored the abuse that was right in front of her, abuse that she could have stopped if she wasn't so self-centered. It made for a clever bit of gameplay-story integration.

Tiggum
Oct 23, 2007

Mary Worth had an illicit affair with Refurb and kidnapped Sophie when she learned the truth. Little did Sophie know, but she was held in Apartment 3G under the watchful eye of The Phantom until Dick Tracy rescued her. Meanwhile, in spite of everything, Working Daze still sucked.


resurgam40 posted:

Which means that I don't really get that one goons complaint that Madness Returns spells everything out for the gamer- I found it just the opposite, needlessly obtuse to the point that I wondered aloud if they even knew where they were going with things anymore.
I only played a really small amount of the game, so I'm judging it basically on a couple of cutscenes.

Lord_Magmar
Feb 24, 2015


I personally like that the final victory of the game is ambiguous, Madness Returns ends with Alice rejecting the reality of her situation in London and that of the children, and in doing so she gains the strength to change that reality.

It ties neatly with how the villain was trying to make his desires her reality, and instead she turns that on him by making his reality her wonderland in which she can kill him and get away with it. Which considering the movies are set afterwards seems she did.

Also the Train of Thought metaphor leading to a real life train killing the villain is a good bit of off-beat comedy in my opinion. There's a lot of that in Madness Returns actually, this game too come to think of it.

So if nothing else it seems American McGee has a consistent ability to create off-beat dark comedy, even if Alice and Madness Returns take it in different directions.

Accordion Man
Nov 7, 2012


I thought the sexual abuse was fine because it fit one of the major themes of both games, that Victorian London society was broken and corrupt. The first game is all about how mental health care was absolutely abysmal and Returns is also how the poor are treated like poo poo. I didn't feel like it was doing it to just be edgy.

Hell one of the reasons why I like both games so much is that they're not edgy. They're actually pretty optimistic games. Alice is unabashedly heroic (Her doctor even says that she's heroic almost to a fault in one of the audio logs in Returns) and she perseveres through all the poo poo that gets flung her way. Her continuing adventures post 2 is her straight up being a hero for hire fighting peoples' inner demons for them ala Psychonauts.

CommissarMega
Nov 18, 2008


Accordion Man posted:

I thought the sexual abuse was fine because it fit one of the major themes of both games, that Victorian London society was broken and corrupt. The first game is all about how mental health care was absolutely abysmal and Returns is also how the poor are treated like poo poo. I didn't feel like it was doing it to just be edgy.

Agreed- if anything I thought it was handled with both the tact and horror the crime deserves.

resurgam40
Jul 22, 2007

Like I'd fall for something like this, Witches don't 'exist', I won't accept it...! Something like you shouldn't 'exist', because this is a human world! You think I could accept something that's not human?! I definitely won't accept it!!

Hmmph. Well, I suppose it could have been handled a lot worse... But I still think the writing was more needlessly complicated and obscure than it needed to be, and had far too many plot threads that ended up going nowhere. And I say that as someone who liked some of the things the story tried to do. There was also not enough variety in terms of weapons or enemy types (leaned a bit too hard on the doll-with-black-eyes motif; yes, yes, common theme and all that, but there's having a consistent theme and then there's beating you repeatedly over the head with it. Which might explain the problem I have with pretty much the whole thing.)

DreamShipWrecked
Jan 11, 2013



Slightly late to posting to SA, but update!

Episode 8: Smoking is Bad

resurgam40
Jul 22, 2007

Like I'd fall for something like this, Witches don't 'exist', I won't accept it...! Something like you shouldn't 'exist', because this is a human world! You think I could accept something that's not human?! I definitely won't accept it!!

As long as we're confessing stuff about ourselves, I stick my head in the door of ADTRW now and again, and I assure you, DreamShipWrecked: there are a lot of examples of anime/manga that are much, much worse and a lot more embarrassing to admitting to liking than Ouran High School Host Club, which is a genuinely good, high quality series. Generally speaking, when it comes to animated properties, it's not the stuff with a large fanbase of girls that's the problem...

As for the Silent Hill artist you were speaking of, Mary Elizabeth McGlynn if your girl. I do love me some Yamaoka, but I do admit that I can get why people wouldn't want to listen to his stuff all the time, but I could listen to her all day. Room of Angel

Tiggum
Oct 23, 2007

Mary Worth had an illicit affair with Refurb and kidnapped Sophie when she learned the truth. Little did Sophie know, but she was held in Apartment 3G under the watchful eye of The Phantom until Dick Tracy rescued her. Meanwhile, in spite of everything, Working Daze still sucked.


These last couple of videos with Miz Kriss talking non-stop about random stuff not related in any way to the game are pretty annoying. If you're going off-topic you could at least shut up for the cutscenes.

DreamShipWrecked
Jan 11, 2013



Yeah, McGlynn us definitely more my speed for easy listening. The rest of the soundtrack is great in the game, but outside it's rough.

Tiggum posted:

These last couple of videos with Miz Kriss talking non-stop about random stuff not related in any way to the game are pretty annoying. If you're going off-topic you could at least shut up for the cutscenes.

I have been cutting out our audio for the more cutscene-cutscenes, like the death of the White Rabbit, but for just the incidental ones I have left it in because they aren't overly interesting and there are captions. I can start cutting things down if people want them more though. It just seemed that folks were enjoying the chatter.

DreamShipWrecked fucked around with this message at Sep 21, 2016 around 17:02

CommissarMega
Nov 18, 2008


Maybe I'm easy to please, but I'm enjoying the banter. The thing is, unless we've got a new weapon or somesuch, the gameplay in both the Alice games are pretty samey. Maybe a little more talk about the enemies, but apart from that it's the same jump-shoot-jump again and again. That said, I do hope you guys slow down a little when story bits come up.

Also Ouran High School Host Club is a great anime that everyone can enjoy, no joke, so no shame there.

EDIT: Is it all right to post soundtrack stuff here? Because if you ask me, this is the best track in the first game.

CommissarMega fucked around with this message at Sep 21, 2016 around 18:20

DreamShipWrecked
Jan 11, 2013



I don't mind individual tracks being posted but I am not going to post then in series, since the soundtrack is widely available and the YouTube stuff borders on

Miz Kriss
Mar 17, 2009


I'm sorry for constantly going on tangents

DreamShipWrecked
Jan 11, 2013



Miz Kriss posted:

I'm sorry for constantly going on tangents

But how would we fill the void of me trying and failing to jump the same ledge fifteen times?

Fish Noise
Jul 25, 2012

IT'S ME, BURROWS!

IT WAS ME ALL ALONG, BURROWS!


What-

what was happening with those two mushrooms at the very end?

DreamShipWrecked
Jan 11, 2013



Fish Noise posted:

What-

what was happening with those two mushrooms at the very end?

You never had Toothicus Assholicus before? They are good with butter

DreamShipWrecked
Jan 11, 2013



God damned boojums.

Episode 9: White Goes First

This will be the last update this week while I put together some more things. Thanks to Miz Kriss for coming in and commentating!

resurgam40
Jul 22, 2007

Like I'd fall for something like this, Witches don't 'exist', I won't accept it...! Something like you shouldn't 'exist', because this is a human world! You think I could accept something that's not human?! I definitely won't accept it!!

yeah, I can sort of see what Tiggum is talking about with the chattiness. Talking whilst making repetitive jumps is one thing, but Alice met the Oracle while you guys jabbered on about Silent Hill or whatever. Could you please keep mum at least when the yellow textbox comes up at the bottom? Because those are the story bits, and I'm letting you know now before the other really good characters start showing up.

DreamShipWrecked
Jan 11, 2013



Yeah, that is an improvement for the next set. I definitely intended to keep quiet for the really neat players, such as the Jabberwock

DreamShipWrecked
Jan 11, 2013



Update! Just me this time.

Episode 10: Ill-advised Solo Career

I'm not sure why the game insists on putting fifty decibel wind in half the scenes, the music is so lovely without it.

Fish Noise
Jul 25, 2012

IT'S ME, BURROWS!

IT WAS ME ALL ALONG, BURROWS!


American McGee is indeed one guy, ex-id Software, did this game with Rogue Entertainment under EA, moved to Hong Kong in 2005, then Shanghai, and apparently is now boating around SE Asia?

DreamShipWrecked
Jan 11, 2013



Fish Noise posted:

American McGee is indeed one guy, ex-id Software, did this game with Rogue Entertainment under EA, moved to Hong Kong in 2005, then Shanghai, and apparently is now boating around SE Asia?

Ah, I was right then, I thought it was something like that, hence the "American"

resurgam40
Jul 22, 2007

Like I'd fall for something like this, Witches don't 'exist', I won't accept it...! Something like you shouldn't 'exist', because this is a human world! You think I could accept something that's not human?! I definitely won't accept it!!

I've always kinda liked this area, found it strangely relaxing, despite all the weird spatial stuff it employs- like you I had a little bit of a problem getting around in some areas due to the twistiness. I also enjoyed the way chess was actually incorporated into thing here- not just the puzzles on how the pieces move, but the way the chess pieces fight: Knights hitting you with swords, Rooks charging forward and using their heads, Bishops having lasers shooting out of their staves, and Pawns... just kinda being there, I guess; it feels very natural somehow.

The music mostly informs my mood, though; it manages to be creepy without being in your face about it, by either being loud or some other done to death nursery song like "Ring around the Rosie". Or maybe I just like My Grandfather's Clock, who knows.

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DreamShipWrecked
Jan 11, 2013



I do like the return to form in terms of standardized, themed enemies. As I touched on a great deal of the baddies in this game are monsters for the sake of monsters and don't have much relevance to the story, aside from the Card Guards and the Chess Pieces. Horror games are best when their monsters actually mean something, which is why the design of Silent Hill, The Suffering, etc. tends to seem more creepy than something like Resident Evil or (the Horror thread's favorite) Year of the Ladybug. The latter still has good design, mind you, it's just that the zombies are more startling and off-putting in the sense of needing to spend resources on killing them than psychologically scary.

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