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CommonShore
Jun 6, 2014

A true renaissance man



Pillbug

And that's why I always say "there's no such thing as a street fight - just escallating assaults." Someone's always willing to take it farther than the other, be it weapons or backup or whatever. If you're in a prospective street fight situation ask yourself, "do I fear for my safety?" If the answer is "yes," do whatever it takes to run away. If the answer is "no," then you're actually probably the one assaulting someone else, so you should check yourself and do whatever it takes to run away.

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kimbo305
Jun 9, 2007

He is I, and I am him



willie_dee posted:

Or do enough damage that they donít get back up any time soon and are so severely hurt they canít mount a repeat attack

That free body kick Gordon Freeman got in broke a rib (at least according to the police), but it didn't quite work out in stopping the guy from grabbing a 2x4 and coming back for more.
Ideally, Gordon would have jogged away to deescalate, but who knows what else would keep him there in the area.

02-6611-0142-1
Sep 30, 2004



he never thought he'd see a 2x4, let alone get hit by one

rjderouin
May 21, 2007


Grizzled Patriarch posted:

If I wanted to get into a martial art with an eye towards competition and general fitness, is BJJ the way to go? I was looking at Muay Thai too but it sounds like BJJ is way more common. There seem to be a decent number of Judo gyms in the area too (Austin if any other Texas goons know the area and have specific recommendations).

I'm in good shape but I don't have any real martial arts experience aside from like middle school taekwondo and wrestling that I'm sure would be absolutely worthless if I retained any of it whatsoever. I enjoy competition and find it useful for staying motivated in most of my hobbies so that's probably my biggest consideration aside from general gym quality.

I'd recommend BJJ, I have been doing it a little over 9 years. Austin Texas has some really great schools last time I visited. Competition in BJJ can be as hard or as easy as you want it to be and even just training can be similarly variable. I recommend finding some local highly rated gyms on google and checking them out. Something you may even want to consider is to eventually do both.

Judo gyms can be hard BTW because they often don't have a ton of funding and so don't have as much dedicated to them, classes at the rec are more common, etc...

L0cke17
Nov 29, 2013



Grizzled Patriarch posted:

If I wanted to get into a martial art with an eye towards competition and general fitness, is BJJ the way to go? I was looking at Muay Thai too but it sounds like BJJ is way more common. There seem to be a decent number of Judo gyms in the area too (Austin if any other Texas goons know the area and have specific recommendations).

I'm in good shape but I don't have any real martial arts experience aside from like middle school taekwondo and wrestling that I'm sure would be absolutely worthless if I retained any of it whatsoever. I enjoy competition and find it useful for staying motivated in most of my hobbies so that's probably my biggest consideration aside from general gym quality.

There's quite a few good BJJ gyms in Austin. I personally train at IJJ (down south on Stassney) and I really like it there. Other gyms I've visited/know of that are good are Paragon, Dark Clan, and Mario Esfiha. I really like the vibe at IJJ though, and there's absolutely fantastic instruction and a lot of very talented people to roll with. IJJ is pretty small though compared to other gyms in the arra, so you may find you like bigger places better.

Our instructor recommends everyone compete when the big competitions come through, but it's entirely optional if you want to. I'd say about a third of the gym competes at any given local tournament depending on timing/availability.

The only place I've heard negative things about consistently is Aces Jiu Jitsu. Every person I've met from there has had the same complaint that they don't have the main instuctors teach very often and it's hit or miss if you will get someone competent at your location/class time depending on where and when you go. I'd avoid them personally, but feel free to go try them out and see for yourself if you like it.

L0cke17 fucked around with this message at 05:26 on May 14, 2020

willie_dee
Jun 21, 2010
I obtain sexual gratification from observing people being inflicted with violent head injuries

kimbo305 posted:

That free body kick Gordon Freeman got in broke a rib (at least according to the police), but it didn't quite work out in stopping the guy from grabbing a 2x4 and coming back for more.
Ideally, Gordon would have jogged away to deescalate, but who knows what else would keep him there in the area.

Gordon apparently lives in a flat there and topless guy is a local meth head drunk abusing women on the street.

A broken rib isnít enough, a broken arm means someone canít swing a 2x4

Grizzled Patriarch
Mar 27, 2014

These dentures won't stop me from tearing out jugulars in Thunderdome.




Thanks for the recommendations guys! Definitely going to check out those BJJ gyms as soon as it feels safe to get out into gyms again. I was actually looking at IJJ actually, since they also do wrestling / boxing / Muay Thai and I'd love to get a more well-rounded education, and their credentials seemed legit.

Another quick question about eyeing eventual amateur competition: I'm not super concerned about BJJ, but at an amateur level, how dangerous is boxing / Muay Thai from a potential brain damage perspective? It sounds like MT mixes up targets enough that if you can keep a good defense up and avoid getting a flush head kick landed on you you'd probably be alright, but boxing I'm a bit more wary about since headhunting is the entire point.

I have no illusions of joining the UFC or anything and I'd be starting way too late in life to ever have a shot at being truly competitive even at an amateur level, but I would eventually like to do some competitions after I've put in the work to reach a safe baseline of training / knowledge. But the flipside of that is that since it's not something I'm trying to do for a living or anything, I also don't want to end up turning my brains into oatmeal for the sake of hobbyist level stuff.

Defenestrategy
Oct 24, 2010

Worst decision I ever made.


Grizzled Patriarch posted:



Another quick question about eyeing eventual amateur competition: I'm not super concerned about BJJ, but at an amateur level, how dangerous is boxing / Muay Thai from a potential brain damage perspective?

If you're worried about drain bamage then striking competition probably isn't for you. You run a risk of an accidental concussion even if your partner isn't intentionally trying to put you down. While I am not saying that you'd definitely not get any sort of brain damage doing grappling competition, I've seen enough people get dropped on their heads and I personally got concussed when some dengus tried to escape a leg lock the dumb way, it's far more unlikely.

Jack B Nimble
Dec 25, 2007



Soiled Meat

Personally, what I do is compete in local grappling tournaments and then play at baby kickboxing at the same gym with other Jiu-Jitsu guys who are pro and amauter MMA fighters. They spar super light (with me), and I get the fun of learning kick boxing (at a low level), but I'm not going hard with people who actually want to hurt me.

So, you know, you don't have to pick one or other, and you don't have to do both at the same level of intensity.

02-6611-0142-1
Sep 30, 2004



I think you can get decent at muay thai, up to a level that would be good for say self-defence, without incurring too much brain damage. But there's definitely a point where you're gonna have to get hit in the head a whole bunch to get better, and if you want to compete at MT there's no way around it.

I started at an MMA place and spent a few years training in everything before realising that getting hit in the head all the time wasn't for me before I switched to only grappling. I get my competitive fix from BJJ, but I'm also happy that I have enough striking experience to wail on untrained people if I ever need it in self-defense.

CommonShore
Jun 6, 2014

A true renaissance man



Pillbug

Jack B Nimble posted:

Personally, what I do is compete in local grappling tournaments and then play at baby kickboxing at the same gym with other Jiu-Jitsu guys who are pro and amauter MMA fighters. They spar super light (with me), and I get the fun of learning kick boxing (at a low level), but I'm not going hard with people who actually want to hurt me.

So, you know, you don't have to pick one or other, and you don't have to do both at the same level of intensity.

This is more or less how my striking goes. My jab is decent enough that I'm not a waste of time for light sparring.

(e. though on further reflection the last two guys who I helped prep for fights ended up fighting dudes who didn't jab at all hah)

Grizzled Patriarch
Mar 27, 2014

These dentures won't stop me from tearing out jugulars in Thunderdome.




Jack B Nimble posted:

Personally, what I do is compete in local grappling tournaments and then play at baby kickboxing at the same gym with other Jiu-Jitsu guys who are pro and amauter MMA fighters. They spar super light (with me), and I get the fun of learning kick boxing (at a low level), but I'm not going hard with people who actually want to hurt me.

So, you know, you don't have to pick one or other, and you don't have to do both at the same level of intensity.

This was pretty much what I was leaning towards and that sounds perfectly reasonable! Thanks again guys.

slidebite
Nov 6, 2005

Good egg


kimbo305 posted:

Area street fight manages not to go to the ground.
https://twitter.com/fallenleo/statu...982680369901569

That karate stylist is pretty high level. I assume he's not TKD cuz he's keeping his hands up. He doesn't flinch when the punches come, stays centered over his feet on punches, and has the balls to throw a spin kick on uneven ground in a streetfight.
His unguarded stance switch at a distance is very sparring mentality, but it was fine.
Too bad the last kick didn't land the liver.
Could be karate, but that totally looks like someone with some either traditional or ITF TKD, from the guys stances and switching and how he had his guard. That spinning kick is a mid section reverse hook kick, and done high section is a knock out kick. The other kicks, including the one from behind he gave a the end are basic turning kicks and are rib breakers.

He had some sparring experience for sure and speed and comfort doing them, but the reverse hook kick is a green belt technique for us.

kimbo305
Jun 9, 2007

He is I, and I am him



Can you link some similar-looking ITF sparring? I know their ruleset allows head punches, but wasn't clear on how that worked out in practice.

slidebite
Nov 6, 2005

Good egg


Sure. I know I have some personal videos from tournaments I've attended. if I can't find anything freely available on the net I'll just upload one or two of those to share. Typically punches to the head are absolutely allowed and expected although some tournaments might rule a well-connected punch to the head as excessive contact in belt lower than black or black stripe.

Those reverse hook kicks in high section connecting to the head will almost certainly result in a penalty for sub black belt in a tournament. I've personally seen three knockouts from that kick between sparring during belt testing and tournaments the past 2 years. I wasn't there but some poor sap at a nearby tournament a few years ago got put into a coma. It's a dangerous kick to throw during friendly sparring because someone older guys like me are not quite as fast.. and even if you judge the distance properly to just miss contact it takes nothing for the opponent to move in an few inches as you are throwing it... especially if they think they can beat the kick. And don't. Although to be fair that's a risk with every kick and how I broke my ribs last year.

I know very little about WTF rules but that's the type where there is minimal hand contact at all and almost completely kicks. Like the stuff you see at the Olympics. We use hand techniques a *lot*. Especially us older males.

WarrenLifeisStrang
May 15, 2020


CommonShore posted:

And that's why I always say "there's no such thing as a street fight - just escallating assaults." Someone's always willing to take it farther than the other, be it weapons or backup or whatever. If you're in a prospective street fight situation ask yourself, "do I fear for my safety?" If the answer is "yes," do whatever it takes to run away. If the answer is "no," then you're actually probably the one assaulting someone else, so you should check yourself and do whatever it takes to run away.

B-b-but how will I stand my ground and prove Iím a law abiding citizen alpha?

slidebite
Nov 6, 2005

Good egg


kimbo305 posted:

Can you link some similar-looking ITF sparring? I know their ruleset allows head punches, but wasn't clear on how that worked out in practice.

I tried to go through some of my vids, but I found I had them all on phones which I no longer use! Here is something I did find on my HDD without a ton of digging. From about a year ago. It's an ITF guy vs a Traditional guy. Not tons of punching like the older, 35+ guys but certainly some. This was an interesting tournament that a lot of competitors had a hard time adjusting to because new contact rules were brought in to try and stop a flurry of concussions which seemed to be on the rise. IIRC this was a semi final match and the competitors were starting to get a handle on what the officials would/wouldn't allow, but earlier on it was a train wreck with warnings given every 3-5 seconds due to contact. I think in one of my matches I was only 1 or 2 warnings away from a DQ. So the competitors are going out of their way, even more so than normal, to not try to connect hard and get the attention of the official - certainly no head snapping on purpose.

https://youtu.be/zYzycfnXcf8

ImplicitAssembler
Jan 24, 2013



Blue wins by running away. Good example of self defense.

kimbo305
Jun 9, 2007

He is I, and I am him



slidebite posted:

It's an ITF guy vs a Traditional guy. Not tons of punching like the older, 35+ guys but certainly some. This was an interesting tournament that a lot of competitors had a hard time adjusting to because new contact rules were brought in to try and stop a flurry of concussions which seemed to be on the rise.
So the competitors are going out of their way, even more so than normal, to not try to connect hard and get the attention of the official - certainly no head snapping on purpose.

https://youtu.be/zYzycfnXcf8
Is red ITF? Going by his dobok. And is Traditional WTF, or some other org?
Blue seems to have a very sport/ruleset oriented game. Which I would assume explains the jumping punches (where both feet are off the ground) at :27 and :38, with the latter looking like squeezing something in before ringout. It's hard to infer what their punches might look like if they'd be allowed to punch at full force, but as it is, it's a lot of arm punching and being willing to punch with no base when pressured. And by default, with the hands down. Those parts in particular seemed different for the guy in the street fight, who would not compromise his base during punches and kept his hands up. Thinking about myself, I do think I'd fall into my usual habits if I had to fight on the street. In other words, I wouldn't be able to perform much differently to how I operate in the ring. It would take multiple exchanges before I might even think of doing something like an eyepoke or groin kick.
I'd be similarly surprised if that guy normally sparred hands down but suddenly became well at ease with keeping his guard up.

slidebite
Nov 6, 2005

Good egg


Yes, red ribbon guy is ITF (you can actually see ITF in small letters on the back of his dobuk). The blue ribbon guy is traditional.

Jumping punches are a standard move for us, although it's not a typical go-to for me. I have to almost think about it to do it, unless my opponent is significantly taller (I'm 5'11" and typically have reach).

kimbo305 posted:

And by default, with the hands down. Those parts in particular seemed different for the guy in the street fight, who would not compromise his base during punches and kept his hands up. Thinking about myself, I do think I'd fall into my usual habits if I had to fight on the street.
Oh, I understand your point now - sorry, let me try to clarify.

The guarding position can radically change from person to person and some of us (myself included) on the opponent. We are certainly trained hands up. Almost every drill we do we have keeping our hands up is pushed into us, regardless if it's punching or kicking. It also helps with stamina. But in free sparring particularly, as practitioners grow and get comfortable their own styles/preferences (some could argue sloppy). Some even have their arms down and almost open, mostly females for some reason. It looks really awkward and you would think not great for sparring. For example, here is a 1 dan that spars with her arms like this *all the time* and I think it looks scary as hell. BUT it works for her and she has fantastic reaction times and effectively blocks or moves out of the way all the time. We have 2 other exceptional women in our club that have stances similar to that. So I don't know if there was some emulation there or if they all came upon it independently.

For interests sake, that young woman was gauntlet sparring against a guy doing his 4th dan test, and the candidate in the blue headgear could not land a single point on her in 30 seconds, and he is one of the fastest kickers I know and cardio is off the charts.

Watching good TKD it is common to have hands dropped in general just to have the ability to give you more options. In an unfortunate street fight against some old drunk guy I'd almost certainly be more hands up like video dude, and how we are formally trained. But when I free spar I typically have my leading arm down as a ready block and my back hand up to guard my face... unless it's someone that I know is a weak kicker then I might drop the other a bit too. And I try not to be planted hard to the ground, I'm on the balls of my feet moving. Video dude wasn't but some people do plant so in itself it's not unusual but probably not a good idea in a match with a good opponent.. might also be tough depending on street footwear. So I guess what I'm saying is a hands up stance like that isn't rare at all, I just might have trouble finding one just like it because most people you are seeing videos of are competing at a good skill level so they are likely to be more fluid.

Coincidentally enough, class last night was almost completely hand techniques with about 80% punching and 20% blocks/moving. Focused a lot on jabs and power cross. Master asked us all to get in a parallel stance and do strong crosses, over and over, nothing else. At the end of about a minute of watching all of us he said "I'm 6'2 225lbs. Every one of you has the ability to punch me and knock me down, but it looks like only a few of you could. We're working on that tonight" and that was the rest of class. Focusing on foot, weight shifting, Non-punching hand always at your face and punching hand promptly returned after the punch.

Keep in mind in our tournaments we're really not looking for knocking your block off power, that's only going to happen if there is an accident or someone is a real rear end in a top hat. They're looking for points. Here is another video from a little earlier on in that same tournament that shows a different competitor. Both are ITF guys (different clubs though) but the smaller red guy is the same from the first video. He is all over an older guy that favors his arms. The younger, faster better opponent capitalizes on the midsection being open by repeatedly giving him various body kicks for his trouble... although to be fair he moves upstairs too lol. You can see how they both start out being fairly light on their feet but blue rapidly becomes more flat footed and is just not as quick. Probably got tired quite quickly.

https://youtu.be/XfrjjXsxI5g

ImplicitAssembler posted:

Blue wins by running away. Good example of self defense.
Blue definitely plays a defensive game, especially when he knows he's up on points. The booing he took at the end was due to him running the last couple seconds of the clock which the other team obviously didn't like. I think he's a 3rd dan and very good. He came in 2nd or 3rd in his division in the worlds a few years back. Also one of the nicest guys you'll ever met.

ImplicitAssembler
Jan 24, 2013



slidebite posted:


Blue definitely plays a defensive game, especially when he knows he's up on points. The booing he took at the end was due to him running the last couple seconds of the clock which the other team obviously didn't like. I think he's a 3rd dan and very good. He came in 2nd or 3rd in his division in the worlds a few years back. Also one of the nicest guys you'll ever met.

Oh yeah, I can see that. I watched a couple of other videos and it seems common. I'm surprised that your ruleset allows for that.

slidebite
Nov 6, 2005

Good egg


Well it's not really allowed per say as you go out of bounds. It's a warning you can only do it a couple times before you start getting point deductions. So unless you have a really big lead to burn you're only a doing it once or twice the final few seconds
e: And I think once you are at -2 it's a DQ after that.

slidebite fucked around with this message at 18:13 on May 16, 2020

ImplicitAssembler
Jan 24, 2013



I'm not talking about going out of bounds, I"m talking about being refusing to engage, which is clearly what he is doing.

kimbo305
Jun 9, 2007

He is I, and I am him



slidebite posted:

The guarding position can radically change from person to person and some of us (myself included) on the opponent. We are certainly trained hands up. Almost every drill we do we have keeping our hands up is pushed into us, regardless if it's punching or kicking. It also helps with stamina. But in free sparring particularly, as practitioners grow and get comfortable their own styles/preferences (some could argue sloppy). Some even have their arms down and almost open, mostly females for some reason. It looks really awkward and you would think not great for sparring. For example, here is a 1 dan that spars with her arms like this *all the time* and I think it looks scary as hell. BUT it works for her and she has fantastic reaction times and effectively blocks or moves out of the way all the time. We have 2 other exceptional women in our club that have stances similar to that. So I don't know if there was some emulation there or if they all came upon it independently.

For interests sake, that young woman was gauntlet sparring against a guy doing his 4th dan test, and the candidate in the blue headgear could not land a single point on her in 30 seconds, and he is one of the fastest kickers I know and cardio is off the charts.
Having the arms out has two primary benefits:
- tangling with incoming kicks farther out from the body
- having a larger lever arm for counterbalancing against kicks and also keeping your torso more mobile
Especially if the ruleset limits how much damage you can expect to the face, it seems obvious to bias your guard toward what strikes will actually come.

As for having hands lower for women, it could be because women tend to have a lower center of gravity. Men with more muscles on their upper torso can benefit from having the arms higher to counter the torso's angular moment. Imagine if people had a center of mass at knee height. Counterweighting with your arms at the shoulders could produce a tilting component if you were slightly off. By lowering the arms, any imperfections will have a smaller lever arm, giving you more efficiency.

quote:

Watching good TKD it is common to have hands dropped in general just to have the ability to give you more options. In an unfortunate street fight against some old drunk guy I'd almost certainly be more hands up like video dude, and how we are formally trained. But when I free spar I typically have my leading arm down as a ready block and my back hand up to guard my face... unless it's someone that I know is a weak kicker then I might drop the other a bit too. And I try not to be planted hard to the ground, I'm on the balls of my feet moving. Video dude wasn't but some people do plant so in itself it's not unusual but probably not a good idea in a match with a good opponent.. might also be tough depending on street footwear. So I guess what I'm saying is a hands up stance like that isn't rare at all, I just might have trouble finding one just like it because most people you are seeing videos of are competing at a good skill level so they are likely to be more fluid.

I think it's very true that you fight how you train, and if 95% of your live experience is from sparring / competition under a ruleset, it'll be hard to adapt a different style/strategy in an unrestricted ruleset.
I'd say only really really talented folks could jump right into a different style in an unannounced street fight scenario.

Xguard86
Nov 22, 2004

"You don't understand his pain. Everywhere he goes he sees women working, wearing pants, speaking in gatherings, voting. Surely they will burn in the white hot flames of Hell"

Sheriff I used to train with had a great story. West TX is something else.

He (sheriff) was posted up in front of the gay bar. Just sitting in the cruiser.

Big Skinhead redneck bumps into skinny jeans whip thin gay dude, obviously intending to start poo poo. Redneck shoves the gay guy and yells "gently caress you queer" or something like that.

Sheriff is getting out of his car, "praying the twink don't get his head smashed in before he can get over there" (his words).

As the sheriff unbuckles, gay dude skips back half a step and throws one of those kokushin style phone-booth headkicks smooth and clean.

Redneck drops straight down, totally out. Gay dude looks around, steps over the guy and walks into the bar.

Sheriff said all he did was roll the Skinhead into the recovery position and laughed at him when he woke up.

slidebite
Nov 6, 2005

Good egg


ImplicitAssembler posted:

I'm not talking about going out of bounds, I"m talking about being refusing to engage, which is clearly what he is doing.
For the last 15 seconds or so, sure. It's not common but happens. You have me curious though, I'm going to try and find the rules for our last tournament and see what it says about that.

kimbo305 posted:

Having the arms out has two primary benefits:
- tangling with incoming kicks farther out from the body
- having a larger lever arm for counterbalancing against kicks and also keeping your torso more mobile
Especially if the ruleset limits how much damage you can expect to the face, it seems obvious to bias your guard toward what strikes will actually come.

As for having hands lower for women, it could be because women tend to have a lower center of gravity. Men with more muscles on their upper torso can benefit from having the arms higher to counter the torso's angular moment. Imagine if people had a center of mass at knee height. Counterweighting with your arms at the shoulders could produce a tilting component if you were slightly off. By lowering the arms, any imperfections will have a smaller lever arm, giving you more efficiency.
The rules definitely aren't condoning hard hits, but the best target is the head for landing a kick. I never thought about it with tangling, but sort of did with the balancing.... I suppose people do what works for them

quote:

I think it's very true that you fight how you train, and if 95% of your live experience is from sparring / competition under a ruleset, it'll be hard to adapt a different style/strategy in an unrestricted ruleset.
I'd say only really really talented folks could jump right into a different style in an unannounced street fight scenario.
I think that makes perfect sense - but I literally change my stance depending on who I spar, and I'm certainly not talented. Maybe it's because I've only been in it for 3 years? Maybe if I stick with it longer I'll fall into a habit of 1 stance, but as of now I have basically 3 stances I'll use depending on who I'm sparing with. There certainly are people who default to once stance though, like that young woman earlier.

That said, going back to your original question about the stance of video guy, I see people in our club like that regularly (well, when we're open ), including similarly myself from time to time.

slidebite fucked around with this message at 17:45 on May 17, 2020

Kuvo
Oct 27, 2008

Blame it on the misfortune of your bark!


Fun Shoe

belongs in the op imo

https://i.imgur.com/amb2LFU.mp4

ElHuevoGrande
May 21, 2006

Oh. . .

Soiled Meat

kimbo305 posted:


As for having hands lower for women,

I would guess limited muscle in the upper back. I've been doing boxing conditioning since BJJ is on hold, and keeping my hands up can be kind of exhausting, even though I lift alot. I gas out quite quickly with stand up grappling as well.

kimbo305
Jun 9, 2007

He is I, and I am him



Can't really speak to the physiology, but my experience has always been that less muscle gives you better endurance.

02-6611-0142-1
Sep 30, 2004



Iím not going to link the footage because itís nasty, but we finally have some evidence on the effectiveness of Street Sword

02-6611-0142-1
Sep 30, 2004



(street sword was defeated by unarmed and untrained civilians throwing trash and then was beaten unconscious)

Mekchu
Apr 10, 2012





02-6611-0142-1 posted:

(street sword was defeated by unarmed and untrained civilians throwing trash and then was beaten unconscious)

Street Sword was also a right wing brony for extra comedy.

Xguard86
Nov 22, 2004

"You don't understand his pain. Everywhere he goes he sees women working, wearing pants, speaking in gatherings, voting. Surely they will burn in the white hot flames of Hell"

I can't find it but there's a video of different people cutting a bamboo bundle. The untrained guy basically bounces the sword off the edge, the intermediate guy manages to cut but very sloppy and the really experienced dude goes clean through.

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kimbo305
Jun 9, 2007

He is I, and I am him



https://twitter.com/SnottieDrippen/...943091064856576

Camo shorts keeping his hands down dictates the course of the fight. Leading with the low leg kick is inadvisable in a sport setting but monumentally dumb in a street fight.
Black shirt is trying to hold onto his stuff (mask and taser! that he decided not to use) until he's backed into the SUV, at which he goes 100%, his right hook the only strike landing the whole fight.
He lands two very solid hooks right before the flip flops come off. Guarantee you camo shorts was already dazed by those. And then two more after that visible rocks camo shorts.

Black shirt's balance is pretty good, and the way he resets to a southpaw stance and moves more fluidly after being in orthodox in the initial flurry suggests he has some training. Overall his sense of range was pretty well judged.

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