|
Kanos posted:
Let's be fair to Orga on the Jasley thing. When it was just revenge, he actually tried to behave like a responsible adult. When his mentor was brutally murdered, his people insulted, and the funeral was crashed, he didn't strike back, because keeping his people secure was more important than his reputation. He only committed to revenge once it was clear people he cared about would die unless he acted. Once somebody's committed to murdering members of their own organization just to provoke you, it's pretty reasonable to assume they won't stop after one. There might have been better ways to handle it, but that was one of the few times he was practicing restraint and prudence. Not his fault it didn't work out.
|
#
?
Apr 20, 2017 08:46
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 24, 2024 11:44 |
|
|
chiasaur11 posted:Let's be fair to Orga on the Jasley thing. The restrained and proper response would be to bring it to McMurdo and press him to do something about it, or to give them approval to do something about it for him, since Jasley was clearly flouting McMurdo's authority and directly challenging him by ordering the killing of someone under McMurdo's protection. The problem is that response would have been both incredibly emotionally frustrating for Tekkadan and also have required them to compromise their pattern of "if you gently caress with us, we'll loving destroy you with extreme prejudice", which was Orga and Tekkadan's default response to every problem up to that point. Because of this, Orga's response was to stoically tough out the initial taunting and then when Jasley's provocation extended to murder Orga's first reaction wasn't to contact McMurdo and seek a solution, it was to immediately contact McGillis and say "yeah we're going to burn our bridges with Teiwaz so we can go get our revenge murder on". The patronage of Teiwaz was a central foundation of Tekkadan's success and security and a core reason why they ever achieved what they did, and to burn that bridge to assuage a fit of righteous anger, however justified that anger was, is not the act of a leader who is seriously thinking about the repercussions of his actions in the long term. Kanos fucked around with this message at 09:48 on Apr 20, 2017 |
|
#
?
Apr 20, 2017 09:40
|
|
|
Kanos posted:
Orga already compromised, because Jasley was loving with them, right in front of them, and he didn't do poo poo. He was actually being a leader and keeping his people in line for the good of everyone. And if he contacted McMurdo, what was he supposed to say? "Hey, I think Jasley is undermining you? I have no actual evidence, but I'm pretty sure the thing you already think is true is true." Yes. It's a sure odds bet that Jasley was going down even without Tekkadan intervening, since the old man ain't stupid, but Orga just saw his last attempt at restraint and proper procedure (Which was a loss of face.) end in the brutal, pointless murder of someone who he more or less considered one of his people. And if Orga didn't react, Jasley would probably just assume he needed to repeat the process a few more times. Yes, it would leave Tekkadan in a better position with Teiwaz, but 1) It would also leave more people Orga felt responsible for dead before Jasley finally got so out of hand he'd be officially taken down and 2) It wouldn't do Orga much good at all. See, he was betting on the (idiotic) McGillis plan still. If it worked, Orga would be the king of Mars and wouldn't need the old ties to ensure McMurdo wouldn't want to start trouble. Running a whole planet would do that. And when it failed, well, the Turbines were in better with the Jupiter mob, and they still were disarmed over an obvious false flag. Orga joined in a war against the Seven Stars. If Rustal demanded his head on a pike, there's not much McMurdo could do about it. chiasaur11 fucked around with this message at 19:44 on Apr 20, 2017 |
|
#
?
Apr 20, 2017 11:11
|
|
|
chiasaur11 posted:Orga already compromised, because Jasley was loving with them, right in front of them, and he didn't do poo poo. He was actually being a leader and keeping his people in line for the good of everyone. Treating Orga's restraint at the funeral as an example of him being a good leader shows exactly how low the bar on Orga's maturity and self control is. Orga is the leader of a company/military organization responsible for hundreds of directly employees and hundreds more dependents whose lives and welfare depend on him. Him being able to roll schoolyard name calling off his back like rain should be a mundane part of the job, not a point of praise. As for contacting McMurdo, McMurdo is very clearly 1. massively sympathetic to the Turbines to the point of holding a funeral for a dead criminal in his house and taking the entire organization under his personal protection, 2. very fond of Tekkadan in many ways to the point of giving them free poo poo constantly and huge responsibilities despite them being novice children, 3. very, very clearly already massively suspicious of Jasley's actions and intentions even before Lafter's murder. A cooler headed Orga who was capable of responding to situations in ways besides "gently caress you, fight me" would get together with McMurdo and wait for McMurdo to look into things(which he obviously was already doing, based on how he masterfully hosed over Jasley by getting Rustal to stop Iok from helping him) and give him official sanction to bust Jasley's rear end instead of his literal first response to Lafter's murder being "burn all ties to my insanely powerful parent organization to get violent justice as fast as possible". I understand entirely why, from an emotional standpoint, Orga would want Jasley's head mashed to paste by Mika's hammer. It's very, very hard to resist the kind of provocation Jasley threw at him and Tekkadan, and he had every single one of his friends and confidants screaming in his ears for blood and justice, and Orga is persistently shown to be basically incapable of resisting the urging of the other members of Tekkadan when they want him to do something. It's part of his tragedy as a character, where he loves and wants the very best for all of his adoptive brothers and children, but his extreme impatience and inability to say "no" when necessary ultimately damns the organization.
|
|
#
?
Apr 20, 2017 11:27
|
|
|
Kanos posted:
I agree that getting sanction from McMurdo would be smarter, but on the season 2 scale of "How did Orga gently caress up this week?", it doesn't even ding the bar. He was already in shaky territory with the McGillis deal (since, you know, it was dashing down the thin line marked "High treason" at full speed), and McMurdo had his hands full working out deals with Rustal. Yes, as I said, McMurdo was certainly going to do something, but it would probably be delayed, and Jasley would take delays as "Huh. It isn't working yet. More murder!" Orga traded a business relationship that was nearing an endpoint (because, again, IDIOTIC McGILLIS DEAL THAT ORGA NEVER SHOULD HAVE TAKEN) for the safety of others and, yes, personal satisfaction. It's not exactly the smartest move, but it's one where I can see why the cost/benefits seemed about right, especially in the context of his other (often bad) decisions. And Orga's a teenager, very early twenties at the outside. Being able to watch someone set up the murder of one of your closest friends, ruin his funeral, and piss on your reputation without even insulting the guy back is a pretty decent bar to hit in that age bracket, especially with all your subordinates screaming for blood. Asking him to then watch more people he cares about be murdered solely because he showed restraint without responding... that's asking a lot. chiasaur11 fucked around with this message at 19:43 on Apr 20, 2017 |
|
#
?
Apr 20, 2017 12:08
|
|
|
chiasaur11 posted:I'm not sure I'd agree with that. 
|
|
#
?
Apr 20, 2017 13:27
|
|
|
Lestaki posted:McGillis always fought to 'reform Gjallahorn' which was a fantastic tagline but entirely devoid of actual content. For a very long time we had no idea what he actually meant by that and I figured it was just being kept a mystery but really it never did have any great meaning beyond a desire for a meritocracy under his personal rule. The sheer destructive potential of a Gundam and the iconic worship was to have the frames enforce the peace. So any debris who decided he has had enought of being enslaved and somehow gets a frame and rebels using a gundam will be seen as people McGillis wants in his regime. Hell he probably wanted Rustal to bring his family gundam just to prove a point across even if he mounts a Dansleif launcher to settle things Let that sink in for a moment if McGillis won. Yes the world will no longer have debris or inequality but it will be a world where might makes right and whomever has more gundam frame wins. He will use that as leverage to keep Tekkadan on a leash and Orga does not like being treated like a lesser being. Inevitably people like Kudelia will be killed for violent regimes are maintained by violence. Death makes everyone equal after all. gyrobot fucked around with this message at 19:52 on Apr 27, 2017 |
|
#
?
Apr 27, 2017 19:47
|
|
|
McGillis is the basic end game of using fantasy and mythology to prop yourself up. You give people the idea that the heavily mythologized and incredible version of the historical figures are the real ones and make them start thinking the universe does follow narratives. It's like someone who thinks of George Washington only in terms of cherry trees. Gjallerhorn was literally built on that mythology (and that is amplified by them living in a fantasy world where a group of people in super robots beat up space dragons so hard i tblew up the moon as an actual historical fact.) McGillis bought into it wholeheartedly and at the end of the day discovered that, no, history is actually pretty lovely and anyone who is mythologized as a hero probably wasn't the guy you thought.
|
|
#
?
Apr 27, 2017 20:06
|
|
|
I forget, did they ever show what happens to Almiria? I don't remember seeing her at all in the final episode epilogue montage. Did I miss something or do we just have to assume.
|
|
#
?
Apr 27, 2017 21:20
|
|
|
Tarodia posted:I forget, did they ever show what happens to Almiria? I don't remember seeing her at all in the final episode epilogue montage. Did I miss something or do we just have to assume. They did not show it. Post-show interview says she went insane.
|
|
#
?
Apr 27, 2017 21:21
|
|
|
ImpAtom posted:McGillis is the basic end game of using fantasy and mythology to prop yourself up. You give people the idea that the heavily mythologized and incredible version of the historical figures are the real ones and make them start thinking the universe does follow narratives. It's like someone who thinks of George Washington only in terms of cherry trees. Gjallerhorn was literally built on that mythology (and that is amplified by them living in a fantasy world where a group of people in super robots beat up space dragons so hard i tblew up the moon as an actual historical fact.) McGillis bought into it wholeheartedly and at the end of the day discovered that, no, history is actually pretty lovely and anyone who is mythologized as a hero probably wasn't the guy you thought. Which kind of plays off Kudelia, in an interesting way. She had the same kind of childish desire in season 1. She wanted to be "the maiden of the revolution", not just a politician, but in the end, she accepted the second role. After the big win, she settled down in her office and made small step after small step, compromising with the world every time she had to, because the endgame mattered more than feeling good about herself in the moment. Where McGillis played politics to get into a position where he could be the mythic hero, Kudelia was someone meant to be the big mythic hero, the teenage revolutionary brutally cut down by oppressors, who managed to move into politics instead. And in the end, McGillis is going in the history books as a madman, and Kudelia's going to be the beloved first ruler of a free Mars, even aside from the fact he wound up killed by his best friend and she ends the series going home to her wife and son. It's disappointing how little she shows up in season 2, especially given how important that counter-arc is, but I can sort of understand it. Incremental reforms make for less riveting TV than mech fights.
|
|
#
?
Apr 27, 2017 22:35
|
|
|
ImpAtom posted:They did not show it. Post-show interview says she went insane. And killed herself  . I'm half-wondering if that'll turn up in the DVD/Blu-Ray version of the finale as a "too hosed-up for TV, even for this show" kinda scene, because she pretty much just vanishes arbitrarily.
|
|
#
?
Apr 28, 2017 03:53
|
|
|
chiasaur11 posted:Which kind of plays off Kudelia, in an interesting way. After thinking about the disappointment of Kudelia not having any presence in S2 besides sitting around and looking worried, I kind of came to this conclusion too. Kudelia's entire schtick was careful, incremental reforms. For someone who wants to be the "maiden of revolution", she is of an entirely non-revolutionary bent; even in season 1, her grand radical journey consisted of her going to Earth so she could give a speech advocating the loosening of some of the economic restrictions on Mars. She didn't go to demand independence or light off a populist rebellion or liberate all human debris, because she follows an incrementalist change-the-system-from-within approach. Knowing this about her, it would have made little sense for her to be a consistent presence in S2. S2 was all about violent children and starry-eyed revolutionaries doing idiotic, hot-headed things without considering anything about the consequences of their actions, which is diametrically opposed to everything Kudelia seems to stand for. What role could she have had besides repeatedly calling up Tekkadan to nag them about how what they are doing is wrongheaded and stupid and getting blown off because the command echelon of Tekkadan are hall of fame all stars at ignoring voices of reason when those voices of reason tell them things they don't want to hear?
|
|
#
?
Apr 28, 2017 07:15
|
|
|
Exactly that actually. Tell Orga he is full of poo poo. One of the weaknesses of the tragedy of the show is that while it was clear they wouldn't listen to advice no one really tried.
|
|
#
?
Apr 28, 2017 08:42
|
|
|
Season 1 down. McGillis did nothing wrong.
|
|
#
?
Apr 28, 2017 09:52
|
|
|
genericnick posted:Exactly that actually. Tell Orga he is full of poo poo. One of the weaknesses of the tragedy of the show is that while it was clear they wouldn't listen to advice no one really tried. Naze's entire life in season 2 consisted of him consistently and repeatedly trying to tell Orga to slow the gently caress down and think about what he was doing. Naze's last words to Orga before Iok attacked the Turbines were "Seriously don't loving come help us, think about the consequences and what it means for your organization". Orga basically ignored pretty much everything Naze tried to teach him. In S1, you had Biscuit, whose entire role was to be the voice of reason trying to moderate and think about the consequences of their actions until he died and his death tragically became the spark that confirmed the reckless behavioral pattern that he desperately was trying to break Orga out of. Similarly, in S1 Merribit's entire role was to be the literal adult in the room who tried to give Tekkadan reasonable, mature advice that they all consistently ignored, culminating in the snowfield scene where Carta died where Merribit literally burst into tears at a bunch of children hooting like wild animals about vengeance and killing. We really didn't need yet another wise character who does nothing but nag at Tekkadan and is completely ignored and sidelined.
|
|
#
?
Apr 28, 2017 10:25
|
|
|
ImpAtom posted:McGillis is the basic end game of using fantasy and mythology to prop yourself up. You give people the idea that the heavily mythologized and incredible version of the historical figures are the real ones and make them start thinking the universe does follow narratives. It's like someone who thinks of George Washington only in terms of cherry trees. Gjallerhorn was literally built on that mythology (and that is amplified by them living in a fantasy world where a group of people in super robots beat up space dragons so hard i tblew up the moon as an actual historical fact.) McGillis bought into it wholeheartedly and at the end of the day discovered that, no, history is actually pretty lovely and anyone who is mythologized as a hero probably wasn't the guy you thought. I don't think that's precisely what they were going for, simply because by all indications, Agnika Kaeru really was all that and a bag of chips. He was a classic shonen hero - brave, charismatic, always put his friends first, the first of the Gundam pilots and the last to die. He was the boy who saved humanity with nothing but a couple of dinky little swords. His tragedy was twofold. First, that he did indeed die at the end, without shaping what came after his victory (in other words, even the most perfect human cannot create a world if they follow his path, only create the conditions for one), and second, that Gjallarhorn's world has decayed to the point where the haves are too complacent to see any value in what he did, and the have-nots are too brutalised to see him as a symbol of anything other than strength through violence. They don't remember or care for where that strength came from. The tragedy of IBO is not so much that someone tried to be Agnika Kaeru as that the world is too broken for someone like him to exist any more. Humanity is a luxury that no-one desperate enough to want his throne can afford.
|
|
#
?
Apr 28, 2017 11:27
|
|
|
chiasaur11 posted:She wanted to be "the maiden of the revolution", not just a politician, but in the end, she accepted the second role. Didn't she only know about and want to emulate the role after the Dort arc, because Maid McDeath Flag said she was reminded her of a painting of one? She spent less than ten episodes in season one even knowing about it as a thing, and after Dort didn't even strive for it beyond to honor her maid's memory. That doesn't really seem to jive with your reading.
|
|
#
?
Apr 28, 2017 18:23
|
|
|
Kanos posted:Naze's entire life in season 2 consisted of him consistently and repeatedly trying to tell Orga to slow the gently caress down and think about what he was doing. Naze's last words to Orga before Iok attacked the Turbines were "Seriously don't loving come help us, think about the consequences and what it means for your organization". Orga basically ignored pretty much everything Naze tried to teach him. As Yukinojo said. They needed more people that were part of the group itself like Zack who would question Orga.
|
|
#
?
Apr 28, 2017 18:26
|
|
|
Darth Walrus posted:I don't think that's precisely what they were going for, simply because by all indications, Agnika Kaeru really was all that and a bag of chips. He was a classic shonen hero - brave, charismatic, always put his friends first, the first of the Gundam pilots and the last to die. He was the boy who saved humanity with nothing but a couple of dinky little swords. I don't think there's any actual reason to believe that Agnika Kaeru is the guy we're told he was. Gundams rely on A-V systems and the Gundams themselves from what we can see were largely monsters. Obviously we might get an answer but it seems unlikely that McGillis, whose views on Agnika Kaeru were influenced by a book that is strongly implied to be pretty fanciful, has an accurate view of the idea. Bael might be Traditional Gundam Protagonist Unit but remember that while they're better off than Mika even traditional Gundam protagonists are not healthy and together individuals who have massive successes for the most part. IBO is a lot about the views of people versus the reality. (Even in ways I don't necessarily work, like the bait-and-switch with Naze.) and it ends up with Mika being turned into the horrifying demonic beast slain by a knight. (Actually a hosed up desperate kid murdered by railguns.) If we ever get an actual prequel manga or OAV or something, I wouldn't be shocked if Agnika Kaeru IS a lot like Mika.
|
|
#
?
Apr 28, 2017 19:35
|
|
|
ImpAtom posted:I don't think there's any actual reason to believe that Agnika Kaeru is the guy we're told he was. Gundams rely on A-V systems and the Gundams themselves from what we can see were largely monsters. Obviously we might get an answer but it seems unlikely that McGillis, whose views on Agnika Kaeru were influenced by a book that is strongly implied to be pretty fanciful, has an accurate view of the idea. Bael might be Traditional Gundam Protagonist Unit but remember that while they're better off than Mika even traditional Gundam protagonists are not healthy and together individuals who have massive successes for the most part. IBO is a lot about the views of people versus the reality. (Even in ways I don't necessarily work, like the bait-and-switch with Naze.) and it ends up with Mika being turned into the horrifying demonic beast slain by a knight. (Actually a hosed up desperate kid murdered by railguns.) This is mostly taken from interviews, though Kaeru being like Mika isn't the worst guess. Then again, Mika was treated by the show as a better person than McGillis - still deeply broken and way too fond of violence, but actually capable of making people's lives better because he didn't shut himself away from the rest of humanity. You can see it in their deaths, too - McGillis died in a lunatic ego-trip that achieved nothing, while Mika died buying time for a breakout attempt that saved dozens (possibly hundreds) of lives.
|
|
#
?
Apr 28, 2017 19:42
|
|
|
Darth Walrus posted:This is mostly taken from interviews, though Kaeru being like Mika isn't the worst guess. Then again, Mika was treated by the show as a better person than McGillis - still deeply broken and way too fond of violence, but actually capable of making people's lives better because he didn't shut himself away from the rest of humanity. You can see it in their deaths, too - McGillis died in a lunatic ego-trip that achieved nothing, while Mika died buying time for a breakout attempt that saved dozens (possibly hundreds) of lives. I might use "prone to" over "fond of", if I had to pick. Mika is quick to go to force, but most of the time he seems value neutral on it. He does a violence since that's how his problems get solved, and if someone else stops it some other way, well, he goes back to his snacks. The times he actually seems to enjoy it are usually indications things have gone much further than usual. I agree on the larger point there. And it's not just their deaths, but where they left the people they influenced. Most of McGillis's friends are dead, his fiance was apparently in a state of serious mental trauma years later (seen that bit in enough interviews to guess at least some of them were legitimate, but I seriously doubt the suicide thing), and the one friend of his who emerged comparatively unscathed (Note: By McGillis's friend standards, 'paraplegic' is comparatively unscathed) still can only look back on how things went with regret. Meanwhile, Mika comes through much better. The women who loved him are happy together raising his son, the remnants of Tekkadan remembered him well enough to carve his name on a memorial, and Julietta thinks back on him with sympathy. Mika was a very flawed human being, but in the end, despite everything, he did some good, where McGillis pretty much just caused harm.
|
|
#
?
Apr 28, 2017 23:15
|
|
|
The other part is that the final confrontation with Gaelio and McGillis makes it pretty clear that if he hadn't decided to Macbeth his way through his friends as stepping stones, they'd probably have joined his little insurrection.
|
|
#
?
Apr 29, 2017 03:06
|
|
|
Yeah, Carta and Gaelio would both follow him anyways and then Rustal wouldn't have anything to use against him.
|
|
#
?
Apr 29, 2017 14:16
|
|
|
You know, now that I think on it, it's completely loving baffling that McGillis left Iznario alive and in disgrace instead of quietly having him die of polonium poisoning or a broken neck from an unfortunate fall down the stairs in his cabin. He knew that Iznario had some really, really damaging dirt on him(by the way, McGillis is totally not actually a Seven Stars member at all and was in fact a child prostitute!) and that Iznario would be very, very bitter at McGillis's betrayal. It seems odd that McGillis would go out of his way to murder his best friends completely unnecessarily to feed into his "Only The Strongest Can Rule, Alone" self-insert fanfiction but leave Pedophile Rapist Daddy around as a loose end.
|
|
#
?
Apr 29, 2017 16:05
|
|
|
Kanos posted:You know, now that I think on it, it's completely loving baffling that McGillis left Iznario alive and in disgrace instead of quietly having him die of polonium poisoning or a broken neck from an unfortunate fall down the stairs in his cabin. He knew that Iznario had some really, really damaging dirt on him(by the way, McGillis is totally not actually a Seven Stars member at all and was in fact a child prostitute!) and that Iznario would be very, very bitter at McGillis's betrayal. It seems odd that McGillis would go out of his way to murder his best friends completely unnecessarily to feed into his "Only The Strongest Can Rule, Alone" self-insert fanfiction but leave Pedophile Rapist Daddy around as a loose end. I think that in and of itself is an indicator that power is more important to him than revenge. Iznario was an apex predator who took from those weaker than him, while Gaelio and Carta were weaklings propped up by their privilege. Remember also that he destroyed Ein, the oppressed Martian who he should, according to his outward rhetoric, have been fighting for. Guy really did take every possible wrong lesson from his childhood. 
Darth Walrus fucked around with this message at 16:33 on Apr 29, 2017 |
|
#
?
Apr 29, 2017 16:31
|
|
|
Hell now that we know that Rustal was interested in Reform as well. It's likely he never would have gone against McGillis if he had not learned of his crimes.
|
|
#
?
Apr 29, 2017 18:32
|
|
|
Kanos posted:You know, now that I think on it, it's completely loving baffling that McGillis left Iznario alive and in disgrace instead of quietly having him die of polonium poisoning or a broken neck from an unfortunate fall down the stairs in his cabin. He knew that Iznario had some really, really damaging dirt on him(by the way, McGillis is totally not actually a Seven Stars member at all and was in fact a child prostitute!) and that Iznario would be very, very bitter at McGillis's betrayal. It seems odd that McGillis would go out of his way to murder his best friends completely unnecessarily to feed into his "Only The Strongest Can Rule, Alone" self-insert fanfiction but leave Pedophile Rapist Daddy around as a loose end. At a guess; Pedophile Rapist Daddy had to live because otherwise how would McGillis prove he's better than the bastard?
|
|
#
?
Apr 29, 2017 18:35
|
|
|
Neddy Seagoon posted:At a guess; Pedophile Rapist Daddy had to live because otherwise how would McGillis prove he's better than the bastard? I would have thought masterfully maneuvering his "father" into a fall from grace so bad that he was forced into disgrace and retirement would be a big enough :masterstroke: that McGillis could finish taking out the trash.
|
|
#
?
Apr 29, 2017 19:03
|
|
|
MonsterEnvy posted:Hell now that we know that Rustal was interested in Reform as well. It's likely he never would have gone against McGillis if he had not learned of his crimes. I think he would have still brought the hammer down if McGillis went for revolution rather than internal reform. He'd be stuck with less advance warning, less support, and a tougher enemy, though, and if the Graze Ein hadn't given Mackey the means and the Hashmal hadn't given him the motive, Carta and Gaelio might have talked him round to reform rather than a Bael-led revolution.
|
|
#
?
Apr 29, 2017 19:45
|
|
|
I dig the fact that it's been almost a month but peeps are still diggin' and discussing this show. Keep it coming. 
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2017 02:10
|
|
|
MonsterEnvy posted:Hell now that we know that Rustal was interested in Reform as well. It's likely he never would have gone against McGillis if he had not learned of his crimes. I think it's less that Rustal was ever seriously interested in reform himself, and more that he saw the writing on the wall at the end of the conflict and pursued reform in order to secure his own position and keep things stable. Rustal was never presented as the same level of malicious elite most of the other high-level politicians were in the show, but he was a man dedicated to preserving both something resembling stability in the world and his own status, using the most effective means available to him. The key things with Rustal that set him apart from Macky and the other Gjallarhorn leaders that got any screen time were that he was competent, and more importantly, that he didn't delude himself about what he was doing and how he was doing it.
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2017 16:10
|
|
|
Yeah, Rustal didn't care one way or another. But then what was it that McGillis wanted to reform except that he wanted to run things? Promotions on merit within Gallahorn don't really matter one way or another for anyone who isn't in the army. A bit less corruption is what you promise if you really don't want to change anything. And of course making Tekkadan king of Mars would also have been a first rate tragedy. Can anyone imagine how that wouldn't have ended in a mountain of corpses?
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2017 16:57
|
|
|
genericnick posted:Yeah, Rustal didn't care one way or another. But then what was it that McGillis wanted to reform except that he wanted to run things? Promotions on merit within Gallahorn don't really matter one way or another for anyone who isn't in the army. A bit less corruption is what you promise if you really don't want to change anything. McGillis's "reform" seemed to be mostly lip service being spouted to attract pawns. He didn't really state any concrete grievances with how Gjallarhorn was being run besides him not being the one in charge, and his entire plan involved trying to seize power using the ancient customs of the organization rather than to significantly change it. Based on context we can pick up on some of his potential changes - an increased focus on meritocracy within the organization, the banning of things like arranged noble marriages, the likely ultimate depowering of the noble class and the Seven Stars in favor of centralizing all of the authority under King McGillis Agnika Kaeru I - but I don't think the ultimate effect of his rule would really change life for the common man in any real way besides making it shittier. The only way Tekkadan ruling Mars would work is if they publicly handed planetary stewardship over to a more publicly palatable and respected figure such as Kudelia and continued to have authority in the background. This isn't an arrangement Orga would be likely to accept, because one of the driving forces behind Orga's constant struggle for more and better was to propel Tekkadan to the point where they were finally "respectable" and didn't have to worry about people starting poo poo with them all the time. The problem is that his quest was totally futile, since nobody will ever accept a gaggle of fight-crazy child soldiers as "respectable" no matter how many people they beat up.
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2017 17:28
|
|
|
Kanos posted:The problem is that his quest was totally futile, since nobody will ever accept a gaggle of fight-crazy child soldiers as "respectable" no matter how many people they beat up. That isn't true though. Gjallahorn was founded by those exact same type of people. There is a reason why Mcgilles loved everything about Tekkadan so much.
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2017 17:33
|
|
|
Hunt11 posted:That isn't true though. Gjallahorn was founded by those exact same type of people. There is a reason why Mcgilles loved everything about Tekkadan so much. Yup. Given what can be inferred about the Calamity War, there is a non-zero chance that Gjallarhorn was founded by the surviving child soldiers forced to pilot the Gundams with a simple edict of "do what we say, or I step on you", and established a governing body based who was the biggest baddest motherfucker of them all with the most Mobile Armor kills (which we actually know for certain).
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2017 17:38
|
|
|
Hunt11 posted:That isn't true though. Gjallahorn was founded by those exact same type of people. There is a reason why Mcgilles loved everything about Tekkadan so much. The founders of Gjallarhorn were pretty much the last military force standing after an honest-to-god apocalypse that nearly destroyed the human race in its entirety. The circumstances are slightly different. Besides, given how relatively easily McGillis was able to get Adult Model AV working flawlessly and how even Rustal's faction which wasn't researching the topic nearly as hard was able to hack together an AV-equivalent workaround, it's entirely feasible that the founders of Gjallarhorn weren't children at all.
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2017 18:54
|
|
|
It's also a then vs now. If Gjallarhorn was founded by a bunch of child soldiers with access to Gundams, then how many decades or centuries would it take for Tekkadan to be respectable? Orga's goal was never really practical.
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2017 20:12
|
|
|
Neddy Seagoon posted:At a guess; Pedophile Rapist Daddy had to live because otherwise how would McGillis prove he's better than the bastard? He wanted Iznario to watch. Watch as the world he prospered in and those he viewed as assets die once the meritocracy was established and the revolution execute those foolish enough to stay loyal. Gjallarhorn under will most likely take a hands off approach to independance movements provided they dont spill over. Anyone who threatens the conflict that spills over will be met with a Gundam led task force and they are a proven force multiplier that barring Dansliefs can only be stopped by another gundam. So what does it mean? A 2:1 advantage in gundam frames for Gjallarhorn vs Tekkadan. Kimaris would likely be scrapped, one thing we have seen in s2 was Tekkadan was relying more and more on the sheer power of the frames vs their cunning tactics since Biscuit's death. Given Orga's situation, He really cant fight McGillis in the long run as the frame advatage is too great and McGillis would have by then tapped jnto the crippling power of Bael to go toe to toe with the Wolf King and win.
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2017 20:30
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 24, 2024 11:44 |
|
|
Kanos posted:The founders of Gjallarhorn were pretty much the last military force standing after an honest-to-god apocalypse that nearly destroyed the human race in its entirety. The circumstances are slightly different. Its almost as if technology has progressed since the calamity war.
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2017 20:36
|
|