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Hunt11 posted:Its almost as if technology has progressed since the calamity war. Not universally. We never were treated to a new model Gundam frame, for example, despite Gjallarhorn's nigh-infinite resources and a really obvious pilot for one in Julietta; she had to make due with a souped up grunt unit despite being the personal servant and bodyguard of the most powerful and important man in Gjallarhorn and being forced into active combat against enemy Gundam frames on multiple occasions. Human augmentation in general and AV technology specifically is something that Gjallarhorn has worked to suppress and make taboo for centuries, to the point where Gaelio nearly lost his lunch at the sight of Mika's whiskers. Only McGillis's personal interest in the Bael led to the research that created Ein, which is what led to the perfected Adult Model AV and Gaelio's Pseudo-AV. It's totally plausible that the people who created the original Gundams and pioneered the AV system in the first place had better stuff than a bunch of jackasses sticking needles into children to see if they don't end up crippled, or a tiny clandestine research group backed by the whims of a madman. Kanos fucked around with this message at 21:01 on Apr 30, 2017 |
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Apr 30, 2017 20:56
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Kanos posted:Not universally. We never were treated to a new model Gundam frame, for example, despite Gjallarhorn's nigh-infinite resources and a really obvious pilot for one in Julietta; she had to make due with a souped up grunt unit despite being the personal servant and bodyguard of the most powerful and important man in Gjallarhorn and being forced into active combat against enemy Gundam frames on multiple occasions. They didn't build Gundams since they're tough to keep working, and nobody needed Gundams. They're high maintenance, difficult to pilot, and expensive where Gjallarhorn's whole design ethos had been making the best mobile suits they could that were cheap, easy to teach, and simple to keep working. They almost never had MS fights, and when they did, the Graze was more than good enough even aside from the fact they could almost always get a numbers advantage. Even the Reginlaze followed the same philosophy. As a next gen Graze, it was a more expensive machine built for mobile suit fights... but it still was simple to repair, and built so that any rear end in a top hat (Iok) could fly it without exploding. The Julia is one of the few machines that's explicitly built for ace pilots, and even then, it's still got the same modular design advantages. It's making Shermans over making Tiger IIs. Sure, one on one the Sherman is going to explode. but you won't just have one Sherman, and most of the time you're not fighting tanks anyway, so what the gently caress does it matter? As for the AV, it was still developed, but in secret. That's where McGillis picked up the tech from. It was indicated that McGillis's implants were a new development, and only possible thanks to the success of the Ein project. And even if you ignore that, the Vidar is a massive advancement created in just a couple years, by someone who's clearly had a long-running interest in the tech. I think I saw some interview or something suggesting the initial Gundam pilots were adults, but honestly, even if I did, and even if the translation was accurate (both in doubt), it don't scan. Thematically, it weakens the connection between Tekkadan and the first Gjallarhorn as well as the connection between the first wave of Gjallarhorn and more conventionally heroic super robot pilots. Practically, it doesn't match with how the website had some short fiction mentioning a CGS employee finding an old picture of the Barbatos's original pilot. So, yeah. Skeptical about that.
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Apr 30, 2017 22:16
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chiasaur11 posted:They didn't build Gundams since they're tough to keep working, and nobody needed Gundams. They're high maintenance, difficult to pilot, and expensive where Gjallarhorn's whole design ethos had been making the best mobile suits they could that were cheap, easy to teach, and simple to keep working. They almost never had MS fights, and when they did, the Graze was more than good enough even aside from the fact they could almost always get a numbers advantage. Well, the Reginlaze Julia and Kimaris Vidar did show the value of high-performance ace units. I definitely think that if Rustal could have got Julietta a Gundam, he would have, seeing as the Julia was pretty much the closest modern equivalent to one - a high-performance ace unit that would straight-up kill any lesser pilot who got in its cockpit, with hideously expensive weaponry (they resurrected an entire lost Calamity War technology to create the Julian Swords) and a shedload of unique parts that made it a total hangar queen.
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Apr 30, 2017 22:26
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Darth Walrus posted:Well, the Reginlaze Julia and Kimaris Vidar did show the value of high-performance ace units. I definitely think that if Rustal could have got Julietta a Gundam, he would have, seeing as the Julia was pretty much the closest modern equivalent to one - a high-performance ace unit that would straight-up kill any lesser pilot who got in its cockpit, with hideously expensive weaponry (they resurrected an entire lost Calamity War technology to create the Julian Swords) and a shedload of unique parts that made it a total hangar queen. Oh, I agree they would have, but the turnaround time would have been pretty tight. They advanced a lot of tech, but until Edmonton, Gjallarhorn didn't seem to think they'd ever need Gundams again. Some tech gets lost. Doesn't prevent other tech from advancing in the meantime.
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Apr 30, 2017 22:32
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Honestly I don't put much stock at face value on almost anything told about the Calamity War. We just don't know enough about exactly how desperate the situation with the Mobile Armors were. Did they have A-V technology for a long time or was it developed ASAP once these war machines were going out of control and killing everyone? Were the Gundams operated by elite soldiers, or did all the elite soldiers die trying to stop these things and they stuffed anyone they had left into the last resort they had? Did these fighters stuffed full of cybernetics really become the powerful elite founders of the Seven Stars, or were they just the champions of the elite that propped them up as heroes and leaders while they themselves worked to rebuild what organization they could? I have doubts Agnika Kaieru was ever in a position of political power - hell, I have doubts Agnika Kaieru even lived to see Gjallarhorn formed. My prediction is that he was a crazy scrappy bastard who kept charging in and beating up Mobile Armors because to get the first Gundam to be effective, they had to find someone who was good at hand-to-hand combat, NOT Mobile Suit combat, and you're more likely to find that in some notorious murderous criminal than in a military armed forces that largely relies on Mobile Suits. He had the fortune and barely enough skill to not die to Mobile Armors and became a hero of the people and heavily mythologized as a savior by anyone left to tell the tale. God only knows what happened to him later on, only that the Bael was intact and he was a famous figure and a powerful symbol. Hell, considering Mika paralyzed himself in order to fight ONE Mobile Armor and Kaieru probably slayed dozens, Kaieru probably spent almost all of the Calamity War a cripple, and if he was still alive at the end, he would've likely just been paraded around while plugged into Bael, and without it he might not have even been able to talk or breathe. ...considering the nature of this universe, for all I know the entire Calamity War was a plot for whoever the original Seven Stars were, assuming the actual leaders weren't actually the Gundam Pilots, to grab power. They were left alive because the MAs might not have been programmed to even attack them, or perhaps simply because they were the patrons of the Gundams and hence the only people with any kind of defense.
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Apr 30, 2017 22:44
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They did say Agnika died when Bael was put into sleep mode so it makes sense that by the end of the war the gundam was life support for the guy.
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May 1, 2017 02:18
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didn't ein say his weird life support cockpit was the original form of the av system or something? I assume all of the old gundam pilots had something like that at some point
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May 1, 2017 02:38
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Manatee Cannon posted:didn't ein say his weird life support cockpit was the original form of the av system or something? I assume all of the old gundam pilots had something like that at some point The true form of the AV system, IIRC. He's mostly just bragging/gloating.
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May 1, 2017 04:22
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chiasaur11 posted:They didn't build Gundams since they're tough to keep working, and nobody needed Gundams. They're high maintenance, difficult to pilot, and expensive where Gjallarhorn's whole design ethos had been making the best mobile suits they could that were cheap, easy to teach, and simple to keep working. They almost never had MS fights, and when they did, the Graze was more than good enough even aside from the fact they could almost always get a numbers advantage. Walrus addressed you about the Gundam issue, but the AV development lab was effectively McGillis's pet project. Even if the lab existed prior to McGillis's interest, McGillis is the one who finally fed them a live test subject by manipulating Gaelio into giving Ein to the lab, and McGillis is the one who claimed the fruits of that data after Ein going berserk made "Gjallarhorn AV" a dirty phrase. I seriously doubt that there was a long term concerted effort among the Seven Stars to preserve, revive, and advance AV technology; most of them were completely loving baffled how McGillis managed to revive the Bael, and all of them except Rustal referred to him as being "chosen" by the machine like someone pulling the proverbial sword from the stone rather than him simply plugging himself in - "McGillis has an AV hookup" didn't even cross anyone's mind as possible, suggesting that not even the top level officials of Gjallarhorn were aware of the AV development project, meaning that they couldn't have been actively supporting it. His implants being a new development for modern Gjallarhorn doesn't mean they were a new development period. Gjallarhorn producing a modern Gundam frame would be a new development. Somebody making a new mobile armor would be a new development. The original Gundam pilots being adults weakens the thematic connection to Tekkadan, but it would make a lot more sense than a bunch of brain-hosed child soldiers setting up and maintaining a world government apparatus that has endured for centuries. As for the connection between Original Gjallarhorn and conventionally heroic super robot pilots, I don't really see that connection as being important at all, especially since we were given two major characters in the series who existed to show that romanticized notions of super robot heroics are loving meaningless and useless in this world with Shino and McGillis himself. We simply don't know enough about the Calamity War to say either way, unfortunately. HukHukHuk posted:They did say Agnika died when Bael was put into sleep mode so it makes sense that by the end of the war the gundam was life support for the guy. Manatee Cannon posted:didn't ein say his weird life support cockpit was the original form of the av system or something? I assume all of the old gundam pilots had something like that at some point Argas posted:The true form of the AV system, IIRC. He's mostly just bragging/gloating. You know, it would be a really interesting twist if the actual physical pilot of the Bael was someone else entirely and Agnika Kaeru was the AV support system like how Ein was for Gaelio. There was a fair amount of talk about how Agnika Kaeru's soul was in the Gundam; everyone took that as either symbolism or a situation like Mika was beginning to experience where he gave so much of himself to the machine that he was unable to disconnect, but what if it was something else entirely?
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May 1, 2017 06:45
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Just finished S02E16. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CNue9xD--Zs
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Jun 10, 2017 06:58
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Ranzear posted:Just finished S02E16. Dark.
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Jun 10, 2017 07:29
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I'm disappointed we didn't get any scenes of Ein's brain floating around in a jar screaming "CRANK CRAAAAANK" in a calm Text to Speech voice
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Jun 27, 2017 02:49
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Opinion zone: I liked the ending. I like this concept of changing the world but perhaps being on the wrong side of history in doing so. What it really, absolutely needed though, at the very end, was for Rustal to make some hint that he knew most of Tekkadan escaped. I think that would make him maybe a little too untouchable, but it gives him a slighly different face in the mostly amenable aftermath. "Constructive losing." I kinda like that. I want a Julieta spinoff now though. There couldn't have been just one mobile armor left.
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Jun 30, 2017 02:48
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Ranzear posted:Opinion zone: The issue though is that there are no longer pilots who could fight the damned things. For all her skill as a pilot and all the tech specs of her suit, she could not stand up to a mobile armor unit.
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Jun 30, 2017 03:33
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Mika had to literally cripple himself in order to beat Hashmal.
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Jun 30, 2017 03:41
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julieta gets clowned on by the mobile armor that shows up in season 2 (tho so does everyone else not named mika) so idk that round 2 would be a very good idea for her
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Jun 30, 2017 03:45
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 This is as good an excuse as any to post this awesome image. Mikizuki was able to go toe to toe with the mobile armor because when he goes full out in Barbatos he is as monstrous as the angel.
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Jun 30, 2017 03:50
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Presumably Julieta wouldn't go 1 on 1 with a MA, she'd have those Dansleif dudes backing her up
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Jun 30, 2017 03:53
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dansleif squad vs anything isn't really a fight
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Jun 30, 2017 03:56
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Dainsliefs only give a fighting chance, the mobile armor can always laser beam the launchers and blow them up before they can fire.
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Jun 30, 2017 05:45
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AtomikKrab posted:Dainsliefs only give a fighting chance, the mobile armor can always laser beam the launchers and blow them up before they can fire. That's why Julieta is there, to keep the Mobile Armor busy and set up the shot
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Jun 30, 2017 05:47
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they can fire at it from space so idk how it's gonna do that
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Jun 30, 2017 05:47
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Yeah, the Gallahorn founding myth looks more and more like bullshit. Nuking them from orbit isn't very heroic.
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Jun 30, 2017 06:14
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Orbital striking self-replicating deathbots from orbit is the only correct thing to do.
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Jun 30, 2017 07:48
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genericnick posted:Yeah, the Gallahorn founding myth looks more and more like bullshit. Nuking them from orbit isn't very heroic. Only a volley wasn't enough to finish off Mika and Akihiro, and they've got soft squishy meat centers. MAs are surrounded by self-replicating repair drones. The one known Gundam that had Dansliefs at best achieved a mutual temporary KO with Hashmal. Add in that the high accuracy setup Rustal had was cutting edge tech, and the fact that those things are expensive for one shot weapons, and you can see a setup suggesting that the Calamity war was mostly melee.
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Jun 30, 2017 09:31
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I can see that but are Deinsleifs more expensive than gundams? And having a squishy meat center or an armored central processor unit makes barely a difference when armor counts for paper.
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Jun 30, 2017 09:35
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genericnick posted:I can see that but are Deinsleifs more expensive than gundams? And having a squishy meat center or an armored central processor unit makes barely a difference when armor counts for paper. The projectile itself is made up of the same expensive material that makes up a MS frame. Presumably it's denser and hardened for its use as a projectile.
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Jun 30, 2017 10:25
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AtomikKrab posted:Dainsliefs only give a fighting chance, the mobile armor can always laser beam the launchers and blow them up before they can fire. Why would the dainsleif launchers not have the same nanolaminate armor as nearly everything else and be mostly immune to any laser/beam fire from the mobile armors?
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Jun 30, 2017 11:26
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genericnick posted:Yeah, the Gallahorn founding myth looks more and more like bullshit. Nuking them from orbit isn't very heroic. Given that Dainsleifs only showed up as a weapon on one of the last of a super-special limited-run late-war suit line, I'm prepared to bet that massed bombardment is a modern invention taking advantage of Gjallarhorn's massive resources and quantity-over-quality combat doctrine, and they were just powerful but flawed individual weapons alongside a bunch of other weird one-off prototype poo poo (see also, the Astaroth's sword and the Kimaris Trooper's EMP launchers) during the Calamity War. It wouldn't even be the first time that happened - only eight Valkyrie Frames were built, and they became the basis for the single most ubiquitous modern suit.
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Jun 30, 2017 11:33
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tsob posted:Why would the dainsleif launchers not have the same nanolaminate armor as nearly everything else and be mostly immune to any laser/beam fire from the mobile armors? Not everything can be armored. There are probably parts that you can't armor up for reasons like the additional weight interfering with operation, etc. Presumably they could design a dainsleif launcher that could have nanolaminate armor slapped on to enough of it to give it a measure of resistance against a mobile armor's beam weapon but I'm assuming the launchers deployed in the show are all old leftovers rather than recently manufactured or anything.
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Jul 1, 2017 00:13
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Addendum: "Oh gently caress, is that a beam weapon?" was the best part of the show from a Gundam-as-a-whole angle. That it probably still pales in power to other beam weapons (looking at you Wing) is what's really scary about the latter. Collateral damage just never comes up. For everything it subverted about Gundam, though, Mika sure did Goku it up. Ranzear fucked around with this message at 00:21 on Jul 1, 2017 |
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Jul 1, 2017 00:17
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Ranzear posted:Addendum: "Oh gently caress, is that a beam weapon?" was the best part of the show from a Gundam-as-a-whole angle. That it probably still pales in power to other beam weapons (looking at you Wing) is what's really scary about the latter. Collateral damage just never comes up. Goku has senzu beans, though, and the Dragon Balls if he really messes up. Mika doesn't. So what does that say about the fact that he's so willing to destroy himself anyway?
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Jul 1, 2017 00:39
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Mika was a kid who had nothing going on besides Orga telling him that they were going to "find their own place where they belong".
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Jul 1, 2017 01:52
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I was thinking more like Cell Saga when those things stopped bailing him out.
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Jul 1, 2017 01:52
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