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People in this thread need to read this book
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Oct 8, 2016 01:25
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Jenner posted:He works in a mental hospital and he says almost all of his clients hold extreme right beliefs. He honestly believes conservatism is a mental illness. He's not wrong considering the result it has for England.
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Oct 8, 2016 01:30
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Calling people insane just because they ethically/politically disagree with you leads to bad places. Although I'm also skeptical of the concept of sanity as it's being currently applied anyway, so I guess I might be biased a bit.  Nah. Sethex posted:Honestly I don't think mental illness is the right title, I like the title 'narrativists' from the thread on decoding authoritarianism. No. That thread is an amazing insight into the cultish mentality of a subset of American fringe loons, particularly fundamentalists. PJ's analysis of them is interesting, especially since she used to be one, and has shown itself to be surprisingly accurate in trying to guess what they'll do next. But a lot of goons there creep me the gently caress out with their tendency to blame literally everything they disagree with on the type of mental illness PJ is describing, and also trying to steer PJ out of her fairly limited in scope but insightful and intelligent attempt to find the root of that particular brand of crazy and guide her into talking about their pet topics.
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Oct 8, 2016 01:37
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my dad posted:Calling people insane just because they ethically/politically disagree with you leads to bad places. Hiter wasn't insane, he was just having a bad day is all.
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Oct 8, 2016 01:39
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Extreme0 posted:Hiter wasn't insane, he was just having a bad day is all. 'Some A are B' does not equal 'all B are A'
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Oct 8, 2016 01:44
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my dad posted:'Some A are B' does not equal 'all B are A' Almost all Conservatives and Neolibertarians come off as insane when they want to implement regressive policies that gently caress a country more then it does improve it. They lack efficiency, progressive views and a sense of empathy and only care about themselves when the opportunity presents itself to improve life. They talk poo poo to fuel anger, they lie to later offset promises that never get done once they achive their goal so they can fill their greedy nature when they reach their own ideal throne. To some extent it can come off as sociopathic when you see for what they truly are. Uncaring, unsupportive ruthless lazy runts in high-tailored clothing. I have heard, seen and witnessed enough conservatives to see them as backwards, illogical waste of space. I hold the view that Tories always hold back society to make themselves feel better about themselves when they look down on others because of their status. Their track record has proven enough that the concept of them being insane enough to gently caress everything out of spite is nothing out of the ordinary for them. So yes, I do believe that right-wingers are insane in some way. They rather repeat mistakes to get a different outcome rather then try a new progressive method because they find it might work against them or that they don't want it due to their Irrationality, lack of understanding and lack of sense for others that they might hurt along the way.
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Oct 8, 2016 02:21
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people can be sane and monstrous at the same time
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Oct 8, 2016 02:24
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Samog posted:people can be sane and monstrous at the same time I've noticed, however anytime a Conservative shares his/her viewpoints. It leaves me bewildered sometimes that they can be sincere in a viewpoint that speaks levels of Irrationality without a hint of irony which I find can lead to them being called insane due to how their views can have dire consquences to everyone around them that they don't seem to have given thought for (or maybe they had but don't care) and expecting to work out all the same with no problems in the way. You don't have to look far in how loving insane England was a few months ago. To an average outsider it's loving amazing to see a country try to attempt the first ever democratic suicide of a country. To an insider who neighbours that stupid country...it's not a great experience when you have people insane enough to assume that they get a better deal, a better income, rid of foreigners etc. etc and risk almost of that on petty lies that they fell for loving easily. Naturally most of these tend to be the conservative type who never seem to learn and naturally they didn't give a gently caress about the consquences.
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Oct 8, 2016 02:43
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Extreme0 posted:Hiter wasn't insane, he was just having a bad day is all. If believing that genocide is acceptable or desirable is an indicator of mental illness, then a plurality if not majority of white Americans (and Canadians, Australians, etc) during the colonial period were insane. If your definition of insanity is so loose that it potentially encompasses the majority of the population, your definition of insanity is meaningless on every level. Find a more useful word than "insane" if you want your argument to be taken seriously. Or, if you don't care about how and why people come to believe irrational or abhorrent things and just want to tar them with the brush of "they think bad things because they got bad brains", don't.
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Oct 8, 2016 02:47
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If destroying the economy of a country personally benefits you, promoting policies that cause such destruction does not make you mad, it just makes you an rear end in a top hat. Some people are just bad people. Even sociopaths are not at all insane. They know the consequences of their actions, they just don't give a gently caress as long as they believe they will come out ahead.
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Oct 8, 2016 02:50
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Extreme0 posted:I've noticed, however anytime a Conservative shares his/her viewpoints. It leaves me bewildered sometimes that they can be sincere in a viewpoint that speaks levels of Irrationality without a hint of irony which I find can lead to them being called insane due to how their views can have dire consquences to everyone around them that they don't seem to have given thought for (or maybe they had but don't care) and expecting to work out all the same with no problems in the way. They aren't behaving irrationally, you are just ascribing certain goals to be the goals they should be working towards and when they do things that work to other goals you are getting confused and saying "but that action doesn't further them towards the goal I thought they would be working towards!". People are often rationally working towards goals, the goals and the methods they are willing to use to get to their goals are just not very nice or moral.
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Oct 8, 2016 03:10
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gtrmp posted:Find a more useful word than "insane" if you want your argument to be taken seriously. If you got one I liked to hear it. gtrmp posted:Or, if you don't care about how and why people come to believe irrational or abhorrent things and just want to tar them with the brush of "they think bad things because they got bad brains", don't. Like it or not, genetics dose play a role into the behavioral patterns and thought process of different people. Some do think bad things because they do have bad brains in a way. Not that it's their fault to begin with anyways. There are stupid people who endanger everyone and there are the unfortunate. The former I would gladly get rid of in a heartbeat if it were possible and taken care of in a manner that limits the most consquences. I suppose my definition of insanity is complicated or maybe just not what it actually means but I don't understand how some people function like they do and not expect me to think they are deprived from the harsh world of reality. I think it's insane that people who have illogical views are represented by the people that think that same person is the type of person that be willing to fix problems rather then make it worse. It boggles me and worries me. I suppose I don't care much for humanity anymore. I just watch people do stupid, insane stuff and wonder how they function and how they came up with certain though processes. The human mind is...fragile to say the least.
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Oct 8, 2016 03:32
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:They aren't behaving irrationally, you are just ascribing certain goals to be the goals they should be working towards and when they do things that work to other goals you are getting confused and saying "but that action doesn't further them towards the goal I thought they would be working towards!". People are often rationally working towards goals, the goals and the methods they are willing to use to get to their goals are just not very nice or moral. Disregarding moral or niceness (Which isn't really necessary if you're the type of person willing to go far to achieve some goals.) People working towards goals rationally depends on what their goal is and what their method is too. If you think that Brexit was a rational thing to do then please tell me how because it certainly hasn't improved anything other then prove how British people are arrogant to believe that they would be no hurdles because they think they are special enough to warrent such treatment.
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Oct 8, 2016 03:40
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Bob le Moche posted:People in this thread need to read this book
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Oct 8, 2016 04:53
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Extreme0 posted:If you got one I liked to hear it. You're really painting a terrible picture of of yourself rather then of others. Have you considered that so many people might have incomprehensible opinions to you because you aren't very good at comprehending?
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Oct 8, 2016 05:02
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Bob le Moche posted:People in this thread need to read this book Like anybody would willingly read his impenetrable rambling without a professor making them do it.
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Oct 8, 2016 05:30
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Extreme0 posted:Like it or not, genetics dose play a role into the behavioral patterns and thought process of different people. Some do think bad things because they do have bad brains in a way. Not that it's their fault to begin with anyways. There are stupid people who endanger everyone and there are the unfortunate. The former I would gladly get rid of in a heartbeat if it were possible and taken care of in a manner that limits the most consquences. One, your definition of insanity isn't complicated at all. Just the opposite: it's facile, and it has no bearing on any actual legal or medical use of the term. And two, I'm surprised that it took this long for someone in the thread to make a sincere argument for eugenics.
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Oct 8, 2016 05:36
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Extreme0 posted:If you got one I liked to hear it. "I'm a pretty good judge of what is sane and what is not, now hear me out on my plan to make things better by cleanly getting rid of all the people with inferior genetics who endanger the good people. Also I don't care for humanity. I can tell who the bad genetics people are because I don't understand why they don't think like me." Bob le Moche fucked around with this message at 06:48 on Oct 8, 2016 |
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Oct 8, 2016 06:21
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Extreme0 posted:If you got one I liked to hear it. Only the insane have strength enough to prosper. Only those who prosper may truly judge what is sane.
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Oct 8, 2016 07:03
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This poster loves police brutality, but only when its against minorities!
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Jenner posted:I was talking to a family member who is also a psychiatrist a few days ago. They are center-Liberal and probably biased but he was saying Psychologists should do a study on extreme right wing individuals because, in his experience, they all seem incredibly unhinged, detached from facts and reality, and unstable. The psychologist Bob Altemeyer did a series of studies on personality traits common to conservatives, which are summed up under the variable right-wing authoritarianism. That article gives a good overview but Altemeyer's book is interesting too, and free to download. I don't think the basic message is that right-wingers are crazy or unstable, but the danger posed by people who love authority and reactionary social values is real enough to be worried.
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Oct 8, 2016 07:18
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Extreme0 posted:Disregarding moral or niceness (Which isn't really necessary if you're the type of person willing to go far to achieve some goals.) People working towards goals rationally depends on what their goal is and what their method is too. If you think that Brexit was a rational thing to do then please tell me how because it certainly hasn't improved anything other then prove how British people are arrogant to believe that they would be no hurdles because they think they are special enough to warrent such treatment. You still seem to be using the word "rational" to mean "good" and crazy to mean "evil" or "bad".
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Oct 8, 2016 14:25
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Vivian Darkbloom posted:The psychologist Bob Altemeyer did a series of studies on personality traits common to conservatives, which are summed up under the variable right-wing authoritarianism. That article gives a good overview but Altemeyer's book is interesting too, and free to download. Thank you for this. I'll be reading through this book soon. So hey, guys. This is not the thread to call people you politically disagree with and who are, in your opinion, wanting to do really stupid and irresponsible things mentally ill. To me, Mike Pence wanting to make women have funerals for their miscarriages was completely stupid, but I don't think he is insane. The multitudes of conservative-leaning folks who want to institute a flat tax have absolutely no concept of economics or a fair spread of burden but I'm willing to believe most of them are not mentally ill. Brexit has been brought up. Proponents of Brexit largely championed the message that being in the EU meant that SCARY FOREIGNERS would come flooding into the UK and that there would be no way to stop them. This message of fear really resonated with a lot of people and, for better or for worse, was successful. We could talk for pages upon pages about Brexit and its merits and flaws but I think we already have a thread for that so please take it over there. But what we can take from Brexit into this thread is that politicians from all leanings will often employ the tactic of blaming all the problems in the system on a minority. Right now Donald Trump has about 40-50% of America believing that illegal immigrants and foreigners are the main reason why their their cities and schools are failing, their jobs are leaving, and their lives are so hard. And this tactic works. Is bigotry a mental illness? I wouldn't say so. But it's definitely loving terrible. But the irrationality and illogicalness that often comes with far left and far right beliefs? I think it toes the line. Obviously a mental illness, no matter how bothersome, is not considered a problem until it starts to interfere with the individuals life and functioning. So many of these batshit extremists are fully able to continue going along their merry way because they often surround themselves with other like-minded people and are so insulated from consequence that they are able to just shrug off or rationalize away any effect on their lives. So I guess since crazy people with extreme beliefs are largely unaffected by their craziness it's not a mental illness? Excellent thread guys! Thanks for participating. (No but seriously we should keep talking about this.)
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Oct 8, 2016 15:07
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Bob le Moche posted:"I'm a pretty good judge of what is sane and what is not, now hear me out on my plan to make things better by cleanly getting rid of all the people with inferior genetics who endanger the good people. Also I don't care for humanity. I can tell who the bad genetics people are because I don't understand why they don't think like me." "I can't possibly understand a single conservative viewpoint. They are insane sociopaths who lack all empathy. Anyway, let me tell you about how I'd like to cull undesirables, and how at this point I just want to watch the world burn in righteous fire."
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Oct 8, 2016 15:24
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Lamb Chowder posted:You'd think this rather obvious truth and the pattern of political progress would persuade a lot more people to relinquish strongly regressive policy opinions sooner and to come to grips with the futility of reintroducing them, but no; I've actually heard the argument that "All liberal policy positions are eventually conservative ones." I think if you look at the history of politics the lesson isn't that people eventually change their minds and progress is made, but that progress is made through enough reactionaries dying off while younger generations hold views that their grandparents generation would've thought were outrageous at their age. I don't think this happens just in politics. Scientists for example whose life's work is a theory that ends up being either wrong or surpassed by a better theory don't tend to just up and change their minds; they die off while other scientists find the arguments of other theories more compelling and thus never turn into adepts of whatever the wrong theory was, eventually causing it to go extinct. This perhaps more than anything is why the world would become a horrible loving place if we ever managed to stop ourselves from dying natural deaths.
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Oct 8, 2016 15:52
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SickZip posted:You're really painting a terrible picture of of yourself rather then of others. Have you considered that so many people might have incomprehensible opinions to you because you aren't very good at comprehending? I can comprehend why and understand the concepts. I just don't find their opinions are carefully thought out to be based around what would happen in reality. gtrmp posted:And two, I'm surprised that it took this long for someone in the thread to make a sincere argument for eugenics. Eugenics dosen't go anywhere to solve the matter of human stupidity. That unfortunately is just a flaw with humanity in general. gtrmp posted:One, your definition of insanity isn't complicated at all. Just the opposite: it's facile, and it has no bearing on any actual legal or medical use of the term. So why we having a discussion on far-right/left leanings are possibly an effect of being mentally ill? Surely that is facile as well. Bob le Moche posted:"I'm a pretty good judge of what is sane and what is not, now hear me out on my plan to make things better by cleanly getting rid of all the people with inferior genetics who endanger the good people. Also I don't care for humanity. I can tell who the bad genetics people are because I don't understand why they don't think like me." Heh. Inferior genetics and good people. That's a good one. People who consider themselves genetically perfect I.E. Master Race are also a prime example of human stupidity. They rather waste resources on killing potential humans who can enhance society because their of their origins and linkage. Humans are flawed regardless of their origins or their genes. Transhumanism is a better approach to streamline human efficiency by removing some flaws that inhibit humanity by surpressing destrutive thoughts that hinder society. Even then, Transhumanism has it's glaring flaws too. Owlofcreamcheese posted:You still seem to be using the word "rational" to mean "good" and crazy to mean "evil" or "bad". I wouldn't consider Brexit to be evil or bad. Just stupid. I can understand why Brexit is a thing and how it came to be but I'm also dissapointed in people thinking it's not going to affect them hard. Some still haven't noticed the consquences of their actions...they may never do so too even when things have gotten worse. So no I don't think the likes of this arguement of 'rational = good and crazy = evil'. I think it's more to do with efficiency and choosing the route that solves more problems rather then the one that creates more. DeusExMachinima posted:Only the insane have strength enough to prosper. Only those who prosper may truly judge what is sane. Is this one of these dilemmas where it's better off to be insane or sane? Jenner posted:So hey, guys. This is not the thread to call people you politically disagree with and who are, in your opinion, wanting to do really stupid and irresponsible things mentally ill. Jenner posted:But the irrationality and illogicalness that often comes with far left and far right beliefs? I think it toes the line. Hmmm...You don't want people to be called mentally ill because of having a different political opinion and yet you think otherwise with the far-left/right? Quite hypocritical there. Jeza posted:"I can't possibly understand a single conservative viewpoint. They are insane sociopaths who lack all empathy. Anyway, let me tell you about how I'd like to cull undesirables, and how at this point I just want to watch the world burn in righteous fire." Hey. Who said I stop at undesirables? And I would watch the world burn in a massive nonstop fire. It be the biggest bonfire ever.
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Oct 8, 2016 18:01
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In this insane world the most dangerous people are those who have managed to delude themselves into thinking that they are sane
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Oct 8, 2016 18:14
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Extreme0 posted:Hiter wasn't insane, he was just having a bad day is all. Calling Hitler insane is bad in the same sense of calling serial killers that: it absolves of them of the responsibly of having made any conscious decisions that were horrible.
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Oct 8, 2016 19:46
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Extreme0 posted:I wouldn't consider Brexit to be evil or bad. Just stupid. I can understand why Brexit is a thing and how it came to be but I'm also dissapointed in people thinking it's not going to affect them hard. Some still haven't noticed the consquences of their actions...they may never do so too even when things have gotten worse. Being stupid or uneducated doesn't mean crazy. Having different priorities (even prioritizing things that are immoral to prioritize, ) isn't crazy, it's just lovely. If a white person thinks supporting some sort of white nationalist agenda will benefit them that isn't insane, it's sane but evil and lovely.
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Oct 8, 2016 21:22
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If we're going to call extreme right left people crazy, why not keep the trend going to include Americans who are crazy for supporting their faux democracy that runs entirely on the directives of the private sector? Where this rationale leads: Anyone who is a sincere democrat or Republican and not an authoritarian is either I'll informed or insane.
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Oct 8, 2016 21:29
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quote:I wouldn't consider Brexit to be evil or bad. Just stupid. I can understand why Brexit is a thing and how it came to be but I'm also dissapointed in people thinking it's not going to affect them hard. Some still haven't noticed the consquences of their actions...they may never do so too even when things have gotten worse. I'm going to explain to you how mammalian human beings from the Planet Earth process priorities. See, if I don't want Turkey joining the EU, and thus making it easier to Turkish people to come to my country, and I value this above the exchange rate value of the pound sterling, it's completely logical to prioritize leaving the EU, even if it carries some downsides with it. Logic is just a measuring stick for consistency. You don't need to be mentally ill or genetically damaged somehow to believe something like that. And in fact that's kind of an insult to genuinely mentally ill people who are dealing with actual problems they didn't choose to have but who still manage to not hate foreigners. quote:Is this one of these dilemmas where it's better off to be insane or sane? It's a quote from Warhammer 40K. So the only dilemma is whether or not to go broke buying crack cocaine that you can model and paint.
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Oct 8, 2016 21:31
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Jenner posted:So hey, guys. This is not the thread to call people you politically disagree with and who are, in your opinion, wanting to do really stupid and irresponsible things mentally ill.
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Oct 8, 2016 21:46
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DeusExMachinima posted:I'm going to explain to you how mammalian human beings from the Planet Earth process priorities. See, if I don't want Turkey joining the EU, and thus making it easier to Turkish people to come to my country, and I value this above the exchange rate value of the pound sterling, it's completely logical to prioritize leaving the EU, even if it carries some downsides with it. Logic is just a measuring stick for consistency. You don't need to be mentally ill or genetically damaged somehow to believe something like that. And in fact that's kind of an insult to genuinely mentally ill people who are dealing with actual problems they didn't choose to have but who still manage to not hate foreigners.
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Oct 8, 2016 22:24
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The belief that Turkey is never joining the EU by design is straight up a conspiracy theory by people who believe the EU is exploiting its neighbors in exchange for nothing. Turkey can join, has been supported in its candidacy by European institutions, and would be able to join if not for 1) Erdogan 2) Unwillingness to sort out diplomatic conflicts with Greece and Cyprus.
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Oct 8, 2016 22:33
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People really need to stop using mental illness as a synonym for bad/wrong/dangerous.
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Oct 8, 2016 22:43
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Lobsterhead posted:People really need to stop using mental illness as a synonym for bad/wrong/dangerous. I mean to be fair that's pretty much the only thing we have to go on. "Mental illness" is way more societally constructed than we want to admit. Again, not saying there aren't physically ill people who need help, but "mentally ill" encompasses a wide swathe of the population in America, especially if you start counting people who take anti-depressants as mentally ill. I tend to agree with you that we're far too unwilling to just call people assholes, but the term "mental illness" is just pretty bad to start with.
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Oct 8, 2016 22:44
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steinrokkan posted:The belief that Turkey is never joining the EU by design is straight up a conspiracy theory by people who believe the EU is exploiting its neighbors in exchange for nothing.
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Oct 8, 2016 23:01
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Lobsterhead posted:People really need to stop using mental illness as a synonym for bad/wrong/dangerous. I agree with you. I'd like to clarify something - to understand the particular use of it in my post, I'd really suggest reading PJ's threads. The one about Accelerated Christian Education even more than her current one, though I suggest bracing for a horrifying read. She is a trans woman who has schizophrenia (for which she is taking proper treatment) and absolutely has experience with both real mental illness and something that the people around her treated as one, despite not being so. I absolutely will call an A.C.E. indoctrinated mindset "crazy"
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Oct 8, 2016 23:02
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NewForumSoftware posted:especially if you start counting people who take anti-depressants as mentally ill. Why shouldn't you count that? Other than some idea that mental illness is sinful or a personal weakness? And that if it is anything but super rare that that is something gone wrong or someone exaggerating the numbers. Like 99% of people will have diarrhea at some point in the next ten years. If human butts aren't expected to work continuously without malfunction why shouldn't mental illness and disorders of the brain be expected to be infinitely more common?
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Oct 9, 2016 00:11
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Maybe being depressed is not a mental illness because sometimes people actually have terrible lives and no power at all to change that and the only thing they achieve by not being depressed is making it easier for others to take advantage of them
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Oct 9, 2016 02:16
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Bob le Moche posted:What's the definition of insanity again? Because I'm voting for Hillary and I'm sure she will do everything to solve global warming and end infinite war Bob le Moche posted:People in this thread need to read this book Bob le Moche posted:"I'm a pretty good judge of what is sane and what is not, now hear me out on my plan to make things better by cleanly getting rid of all the people with inferior genetics who endanger the good people. Also I don't care for humanity. I can tell who the bad genetics people are because I don't understand why they don't think like me." Bob le Moche posted:In this insane world the most dangerous people are those who have managed to delude themselves into thinking that they are sane Bob le Moche posted:Maybe being depressed is not a mental illness because sometimes people actually have terrible lives and no power at all to change that and the only thing they achieve by not being depressed is making it easier for others to take advantage of them I think you might be posting in the wrong forum. Denying the existence of mental illness would probably be best pursued over here.
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Oct 9, 2016 02:29
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