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Lightning Knight posted:Hm, are you, say, a white straight male tankie from a majority white First World country talking about how electing a fascist who will happily rubber stamp the agenda of the fascist party he's running for So the republicans are a fascist party, and America has a two party political system, meaning roughly half of your political sphere is fascist, and has apparently been this way for a long time. Okay, you know that actually proves my point - trump is not the thing that decides if your country is fascist or not. the fascism is already there. this isn't like cutting the head off of whatshisname, the lord of the rings badguy, the orcs aren't going to go poof and disappear. its weird that you admit that your country and it's political life is deeply, deeply sick, but also you think that just one guy decides if everything is bad or not. we're currently lacking a hitler but that doesn't stop nazis from causing us trouble, still Lightning Knight posted:won't make a difference because you're privileged enough that it won't affect you? i'm actually poor and live in a slum HMO in a country that's been solidly in the US imperial sphere for seventy years, you might remember that our economy tanked 9 years ago, and still hasn't recovered, because of economic policy created by americans. and also one of our two-parties is destroyed utterly due to the long term consequences of being in the US Military Bloc. Lightning Knight posted:That's absurd, though, a well-meaning, right-thinking leftist would never throw minorities under the bus like that! Hillary Clinton throws minorities under the bus. Obama throws them under the bus. America is an endless stream of throwing minorities under the bus - I'm not sure how me pointing this out makes me the one who's doing it? Lightning Knight posted:Fascism is also defined primarily by an imperial expansionist policy, and as of recently the United States hasn't been annexing or permanently conquering anyone. I'm sure you, as a good Englishman, would abhor the idea of Britain as the 51st State. That would mean you'd have to live in America. It's actually not (peep that spain) but to describe the US as not an imperial or expansionist power is pretty funny. you're literally trying to destroy the government of Syria so you can install one more favourable to your interests. you also tried that with Lybia and hosed it up really badly, before that Iraq and Afghanistan, that one at least a couple of times. and there's all the south america poo poo too - literally the argument you will try and present now is that these don't count because they have de jure (but not de facto) independence, and how owning their entire economies is a mere coincidence HorseLord fucked around with this message at 18:02 on Oct 4, 2016 |
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Oct 4, 2016 18:00
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WampaLord posted:Hoo boy, did you miss when he said in a debate that he wanted to re-implement Operation Wetback? You misheard. He's going to reboot the Operation: Winback franchise.
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Oct 4, 2016 18:00
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Civilized Fishbot posted:Trump isn't a fascist. Fascism is about revolution and the seizure of power and Trump's campaign is about preventing the loss of power and privilege That was quite literally the way Hitler cast his rise to power though. (I think calling him a fascist is hyperbole for other reasons OTOH)
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Oct 4, 2016 18:01
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HorseLord posted:its weird that you admit that your country and it's political life is deeply, deeply sick, but also you think that just one guy decides if everything is bad or not. we're currently lacking a hitler but that doesn't stop nazis from causing us trouble, still This "one guy" would have full control over the largest military force on the planet.
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Oct 4, 2016 18:02
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Fascism stems from Nationalism. And America is all about that Nationalism.
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Oct 4, 2016 18:02
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Civilized Fishbot posted:Trump isn't a fascist. Fascism is about revolution and the seizure of power and Trump's campaign is about preventing the loss of power and privilege, mainly the power to deny rent to black people and to call women fat on TV. This is why Trump's electoral support comes entirely from comfortable old white people, not social outcasts who have nothing to lose. Fascists want to build monuments to themselves, Trump doesn't want to build anything other than a wall to keep new brown people from coming in (he doesn't even talk about throwing out existing brown people). "Make America Great Again" doesn't refer to some age of Ubermenschen and triumph stored in the national mythos, it refers to when The Apprentice first came on the air. Trump's literally not ambitious enough to be a fascist, he's just a blunt dumb reactionary. I disagree that fascism is an inherently revolutionary political ideology. I also don't think that Trump actually has many convictions or opinions of his own, past whatever passing thoughts and fancies he has in observation to the immediate world around him - he might have an opinion on the newspaper headline of the day in the moment, but I doubt his deep-seated convictions run deeper than "more money for me, gently caress you" and "I want to gently caress my daughter. In the broader context, however, the American right has all the hallmarks of a fascist movement at this point - aggressive advocacy for interventionist and imperialist foreign policy, a desire to hybridize the corporate and government spheres to make the military-industrial complex more efficient and enrich the leadership of the country, and a program of bread and circuses to distract the working class from their problems along with aggressive racial and gender-based discrimination to divide people and make them worry more about their neighbors than their leaders. Whether or not they have to ride a revolutionary wave into power or merely be elected is secondary to the fact that in terms of their actual programs and policies, the American right has by most measures become an American fascist movement.
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Oct 4, 2016 18:03
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Americans of all colours and creeds have a hard time accepting that their 2 million strong military, 1000+ bases around the world, numerous illegal wars, torture and destabilisation are bad things and that their country is a violent military empire that ruins most of what it touches.
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Oct 4, 2016 18:03
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Warmongering psychopath who never met a bomb she wouldn't drop. That she sounds normal and sane to people is proof of how truly awful American politics are. Also, insanely corrupt. The extent that everyone decided to shut their mouths and circles the wagons this year, because of trump, is nauseating
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Oct 4, 2016 18:03
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WampaLord posted:This "one guy" would have full control over the largest military force on the planet. unless your military command structure has changed recently, no he wouldn't
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Oct 4, 2016 18:03
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HorseLord posted:unless your military command structure has changed recently, no he wouldn't Do you understand what Commander in Chief means?
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Oct 4, 2016 18:04
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SickZip posted:Warmongering psychopath who never met a bomb she wouldn't drop. The extent that she sounds normal and sane to people is proof of how truly awful American politics are. source your quotes/nice meltdown
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Oct 4, 2016 18:05
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And for the low, low price of a few hundred thousand dollars, you too, random tankie on the internet, can come to America and set up another failed third party attempt that will never breach the edge of obscurity!
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Oct 4, 2016 18:06
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BiohazrD posted:source your quotes/nice meltdown Name a military intervention over the last 25 years that she opposed. Name one where she wasn't pushing for it to go farther
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Oct 4, 2016 18:06
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Someone tried to argue to me that Trump wouldn't be that bad because he would need Congress' approval to declare war. Because that stopped Iraq and Afghanistan.
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Oct 4, 2016 18:06
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WampaLord posted:Do you understand what Commander in Chief means? it most definitely doesn't mean "has unchecked and unlimited power". if donny tump rolls out of bed at 4am and demands to nuke the north pole they'd just declare him unfit for his position
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Oct 4, 2016 18:06
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HorseLord posted:it most definitely doesn't mean "has unchecked and unlimited power". if donny tump rolls out of bed at 4am and demands to nuke the north pole they'd just declare him unfit for his position Okay, so you have literally no understanding of how the government works. Who is the "they" in this scenario that's declaring him unfit? The generals he hand picks to run the military?
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Oct 4, 2016 18:08
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Lightning Knight posted:And for the low, low price of a few hundred thousand dollars, you too, random tankie on the internet, can come to America and set up another failed third party attempt that will never breach the edge of obscurity! you owned yourself by admitting that there's more to america's fascism than an old man with bad hair and now you're playing it off cool
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Oct 4, 2016 18:08
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WampaLord posted:Okay, so you have literally no understanding of how the government works. says man who thinks only one person decides if a country goes to war
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Oct 4, 2016 18:09
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SickZip posted:Also, insanely corrupt. Gonna need more detail here. And sources.
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Oct 4, 2016 18:10
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HorseLord posted:you owned yourself by admitting that there's more to america's fascism than an old man with bad hair and now you're playing it off cool I've never disagreed that there is more to American fascism than Donald Trump. Our entire sociopolitical system is rotten at the foundations, same as any other country. Unlike you, I don't labor under the assumption that I can magically make the proletariat decide to abandon their entire lives and livelihoods on a whim to be murdered by the government in a failed revolution. I like to live in reality, rather than pretend I can pull unicorns out of my rear end.
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Oct 4, 2016 18:10
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You don't need to have an armed revolution you can just elect non-militaristic, non-imperial politi... lol ahaha I can't say it with a straight face
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Oct 4, 2016 18:11
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Lightning Knight posted:I've never disagreed that there is more to American fascism than Donald Trump. Our entire sociopolitical system is rotten at the foundations, same as any other country. Unlike you, I don't labor under the assumption that I can magically make the proletariat decide to abandon their entire lives and livelihoods on a whim to be murdered by the government in a failed revolution. I like to live in reality, rather than pretend I can pull unicorns out of my rear end. actually i recognise that replacing america with an actually humane country will be difficult, where we differ is that i'm not a huge pussy collaborator who justifies defending something he claims to think is bad as "realism"
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Oct 4, 2016 18:12
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HorseLord posted:you owned yourself Stop. Seriously, you're making me feel sorry for you and I don't want that.
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Oct 4, 2016 18:12
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JFairfax posted:You don't need to have an armed revolution you can just elect non-militaristic, non-imperial politi... lol ahaha I can't say it with a straight face You should use your direct line to the Vatican, man. I heard the Pope is a cool bro. He can hook you up. HorseLord posted:actually i recognise that replacing america with an actually humane country will be difficult, where we differ is that i'm not a huge pussy who goes "its too haaaaard" and collaborates I'm sure a poor dude in England is doing soooo much work for the coming people's revolution. 
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Oct 4, 2016 18:12
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WampaLord posted:This "one guy" would have full control over the largest military force on the planet. And yet, Trump's albeit erratic and ill-defined foreign policy is often pitched as less interventionist than that of known Kissinger associate Hillary Rodham Clinton. Aside from that, I'm not interested in defending Trump but isn't it just the slightest bit worrisome any single person having that kind of power? The problems in American politics are systemic and have an impact worldwide. While Trump is undoubtedly a dangerous wild card, I have deep misgivings about what another Clinton presidency holds in store as well. It's a familiar feeling of apprehension, mind you, as I come by it everytime you guys have an election, no matter who's on the slate.
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Oct 4, 2016 18:14
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Um sweaty i know the third reich is bad but you can't just like, pull a better one out of your rear end, so be realistic and join the SS like me - Lightning Knight, 1939
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Oct 4, 2016 18:14
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He has abdicated Government here, by declaring us out of his Protection and waging War against us. He has plundered our seas, ravaged our Coasts, burnt our towns, and destroyed the lives of our people. He is at this time transporting large Armies of foreign Mercenaries to compleat the works of death, desolation and tyranny, already begun with circumstances of Cruelty & perfidy scarcely paralleled in the most barbarous ages, and totally unworthy the Head of a civilized nation. He has constrained our fellow Citizens taken Captive on the high Seas to bear Arms against their Country, to become the executioners of their friends and Brethren, or to fall themselves by their Hands. He has excited domestic insurrections amongst us, and has endeavoured to bring on the inhabitants of our frontiers, the merciless Indian Savages, whose known rule of warfare, is an undistinguished destruction of all ages, sexes and conditions. America has turned into exactly the thing it declared independence from Lolz
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Oct 4, 2016 18:14
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HorseLord posted:Um sweaty i know the third reich is bad but you can't just like, pull a better one out of your rear end, so be realistic and join the SS like me - Lightning Knight, 1939  You think the Democratic Party, the most milquetoast party in history, is the same as the SS.Your trolling is weak, tankie.
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Oct 4, 2016 18:15
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Hitlers Gay Secret posted:Someone tried to argue to me that Trump wouldn't be that bad because he would need Congress' approval to declare war. The only good thing to be said about Trump is that he's lovely in a bunch of different ways compared to the Washington consensus. The worst thing about Hillary is that she's lovely in the exact same ways as it is. The government would likely fight Trump and restrict his power, not so much with Hillary. Can't wait for all the Sane and Sober people to nod along as we get into pointless and insanely dangerous confrontations with Russia
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Oct 4, 2016 18:15
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Lightning Knight posted:You should use your direct line to the Vatican, man. I heard the Pope is a cool bro. He can hook you up. I got that title for having the opinion that the institution of the Catholic church really likes to abuse children. I do not have a direct line to the vatican.
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Oct 4, 2016 18:15
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HorseLord posted:Um sweaty i know the third reich is bad but you can't just like, pull a better one out of your rear end, so be realistic and join the SS like me - Lightning Knight, 1939 yes, the Third Reich, famous fascist power that totally wasn't defeated by largest armed military coalition of capitalist and authoritarian communist powers in the history of the human race, both of whom immediately collapsed into shitthrowing and slapfighting known as the Cold War. But no, tell me more about your Assad apologism, because it's totally ok to support dictators who use chemical weapons on their own people when they stand against America. JFairfax posted:I got that title for having the opinion that the institution of the Catholic church really likes to abuse children. I was 100% joking and it was not meant to be a hostile comment. We cool. 
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Oct 4, 2016 18:16
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SickZip posted:The government would likely fight Trump and restrict his power, not so much with Hillary. Yes, Republicans in Congress would surely oppose a Republican president who's promising to give them almost everything they want.
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Oct 4, 2016 18:16
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TomViolence posted:And yet, Trump's albeit erratic and ill-defined foreign policy is often pitched as less interventionist than that of known Kissinger associate Hillary Rodham Clinton. Really? You think "Bomb the poo poo out of them" and "Take the oil" Trump is going to be less interventionist? He'll get mad over something minor and petty and then the missiles start flying.
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Oct 4, 2016 18:17
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I'm phone posting so pretend I put the We Came, We Saw, He Died video
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Oct 4, 2016 18:17
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SickZip posted:Can't wait for all the Sane and Sober people to nod along as we get into pointless and insanely dangerous confrontations with Russia There's a significantly greater chance that this would happen under a Trump presidency than a Clinton one actually. Trump, with his dumb baby ego, would feel the need to demonstrate that he's not a pawn of Russia, engage in aggressive big talk against Putin, probably put a bunch more troops and missiles in Eastern Europe, and boom, we've got another arms race.
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Oct 4, 2016 18:17
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SickZip posted:I'm phone posting so pretend I put the We Came, We Saw, He Died video Please tell me why Gaddafi getting killed is something to be sad about.
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Oct 4, 2016 18:18
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Lightning Knight posted:yes, the Third Reich, famous fascist power that totally wasn't defeated by largest armed military coalition of capitalist and authoritarian communist powers in the history of the human race, both of whom immediately collapsed into shitthrowing and slapfighting known as the Cold War. George Bush's grandfather, the late US senator Prescott Bush, was a director and shareholder of companies that profited from their involvement with the financial backers of Nazi Germany. The Guardian has obtained confirmation from newly discovered files in the US National Archives that a firm of which Prescott Bush was a director was involved with the financial architects of Nazism. His business dealings, which continued until his company's assets were seized in 1942 under the Trading with the Enemy Act, has led more than 60 years later to a civil action for damages being brought in Germany against the Bush family by two former slave labourers at Auschwitz and to a hum of pre-election controversy. The evidence has also prompted one former US Nazi war crimes prosecutor to argue that the late senator's action should have been grounds for prosecution for giving aid and comfort to the enemy. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2004/sep/25/usa.secondworldwar Also IBM and the Holocaust. Certain parts of American society did very well out of Nazi germany
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Oct 4, 2016 18:18
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Majorian posted:There's a significantly greater chance that this would happen under a Trump presidency than a Clinton one actually. Trump, with his dumb baby ego, would feel the need to demonstrate that he's not a pawn of Russia, engage in aggressive big talk against Putin, probably put a bunch more troops and missiles in Eastern Europe, and boom, we've got another arms race. I don't see how he could do that with Putin's dick in his mouth though. It would be a really awkward Army strategy meeting. Edit: quote:Certain parts of American society did very well out of Nazi germany Yes they did! Part of Hitler's inspiration, if you want to sully a good word, for the Holocaust came from American practices related to eugenics and forced sterilization of black people and the mentally disabled in America. Most Americans never learn about our history with fascism and Hitler's Germany but we absolutely were partially culpable for it and our helping to defeat him doesn't erase that.
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Oct 4, 2016 18:19
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Lightning Knight posted:yes, the Third Reich, famous fascist power that totally wasn't defeated by largest armed military coalition of capitalist and authoritarian communist powers in the history of the human race, both of whom immediately collapsed into shitthrowing and slapfighting known as the Cold War. whoooosh Lightning Knight posted:But no, tell me more about your Assad apologism, because it's totally ok to support dictators who use chemical weapons on their own people when they stand against America. i don't know if anyone has told you this but nothing the Syrian government (which is more than just one man you don't like) does within its borders justifies america trying to destroy the country also, you literally live in a country that uses chemical weapons on its own people. every time your "police" army occupies a town where there's a state murder protest out come the CS gas grenades, so i'm not sure you're coming in to this with clean hands?
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Oct 4, 2016 18:20
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America provided satellite imagery to Saddam Hussein in order for him to use chemical weapons.
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Oct 4, 2016 18:20
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